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Jane Austen, Emma, and Emmeline Vance, Other Austen parallels?
PAM2002
post Dec 8 2005, 12:26 PM
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"I love a good whodunnit and my passion is plot construction. Readers loved to be tricked, but not conned," Rowling says, warming to her theme. "The best twist ever in literature is in Jane Austen's Emma. To me she is the target of perfection at which we shoot in vain."

I bring this quote here to ask a silly question. If Emma is her favorite book, and she loves plot twists, could Emmeline Vance's murder give us a clue about something? I decided this was a more literary question, rather than speculation about Emmeline Vance's actual present condition.

I feel there may be something to Emmeline-little Emma. I probably wouldn't question it if Snape had not claimed some part of it and we have no way of knowing whether he did or not. Other things he speaks of at Spinner's End, we can argue his meaning but this seems to have stumped many people.

Would JKR use Emma's namesake as a way of indicating a plot twist?  I'm not at all suggesting there was anything Emma-like about the character. I just feel like it's a marker, a clue, an indication of something.

I also thought, if anyone wanted to weigh in on other Austen characters and their similarities, or differences, this might be a good place to put it.


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Arithmancer
post Dec 16 2005, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE(You_won't_know_who @ Dec. 11 2005,11:42 )
A friend of the Woodhouse family and Emma's brother-in-law is keeping a  close eye on Emma with the intention of marrying her.

Really?  I mean, eventually, sure.  But it takes a while!  I really don't think Mr Knightly knows the significance of his feelings for Emma when he discusses her with Mrs Weston in Chapter 4.  And, of course, that's the great fun of the chapter.  You know from that moment that he will love her, and that she will love him, and the rest of the novel is delicious, delirious waiting for the two of them to figure it out.

QUOTE(You_won't_know_who @ Dec. 11 2005,11:42 )
I would like to point out, that Emma is rather like Harry, not like Emmeline-the-unknown. She is quite intelligent but sometimes she lacks the ability to determine what are the motivations of people surrounding her.She does stupid mistakes, but always tries to "sort the things out" and because she's sensible, honest and kind in the heart, exactly like Harry, she usually succeeds. That's also the case of Harry - I don't doubt that in the final book he will asses things and people differently than in previous books and will succeed =survive.


Yes, I agree!  It's the same with Catherine Morland in 'Northanger Abbey':  so much of the plot is about her trying to figure things out, but going wrong in her interpretations -- sometimes with hurtful results, even though she's really good at heart.

Some of my favorite moments in both 'Emma' and 'Northanger Abbey' come when the heroine realizes that she has been not only wrong but also hurtful in her theorizing:  Emma imagines a liaison between Jane Fairfax and the newlywed Mr. Dixon;   Catherine imagines dark deeds committed by General Tilney against his late wife;  both heroines are profoundly ashamed and repentant when their imaginings are made known and shown false:  each one feels for the first time the seriousness of her mistake, which (in both cases) is the mistake having wrongly thought an acquaintance to be guilty of a serious sin, and of doing so because she thought of that person more as a character in a romance than as a human being of flesh and blood and depth and conscience, and with moral and social principles.  I wonder if Harry will have a similar, transforming moment of shame and repentance for a false theory of his own in Book 7.
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madamros
post Dec 17 2005, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE(Arithmancer @ Dec. 16 2005,13:04 )


Some of my favorite moments in both 'Emma' and 'Northanger Abbey' come when the heroine realizes that she has been not only wrong but also hurtful in her theorizing:  Emma imagines a liaison between Jane Fairfax and the newlywed Mr. Dixon;   Catherine imagines dark deeds committed by General Tilney against his late wife;  both heroines are profoundly ashamed and repentant when their imaginings are made known and shown false:  each one feels for the first time the seriousness of her mistake, which (in both cases) is the mistake having wrongly thought an acquaintance to be guilty of a serious sin, and of doing so because she thought of that person more as a character in a romance than as a human being of flesh and blood and depth and conscience, and with moral and social principles.  I wonder if Harry will have a similar, transforming moment of shame and repentance for a false theory of his own in Book 7.


Arithmancer I agree with you. I also think you can add Elizabeth Bennett (Pride & Prejudice) to the list of heroines who think an acquaintance is guilty - in this case because of her prejudice against Darcy she believes Wickham's account of their dealings with each other. When she finds out the truth she undergoes great inner turmoil and decides not to let her wider family or friends know the truth about Wickham, which almost leads to Lydia's (and the other sisters) ruin (until Darcy 'rescues' them all) It will be interesting to see whether a variation of this scenario plays out in book 7.


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"My idea of good company, Mr Elliott, is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company."
"You are mistaken," said he gently, "that is not good company, that is the best."

Persuasion by Jane Austen
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Spectrespecs
post Dec 18 2005, 04:19 PM
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I'm in the middle of watching the BBC TV series Pride and Prejudice on DVD now (I've read the book before) and with this discussion thread in mind I can't help but keep comparing Darcy's manners to Snape's - they certainly do have a lot in common. I just  watched Darcy's proposal to Elizabeth where he very reluctantly confesses his feelings for her but at the same time is brutally honest about his feelings about her family and that socially he'd be marrying beneath himself. Really very "snapeish"... (I could easily imagine Alan Rickman playing Darcy!) Thinking of how Snape is just as brutally honest about how he feels about Harry's father, for example.


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madamros
post Dec 19 2005, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE(Spectrespecs @ Dec. 18 2005,16:19 )
I'm in the middle of watching the BBC TV series Pride and Prejudice on DVD now (I've read the book before) and with this discussion thread in mind I can't help but keep comparing Darcy's manners to Snape's - they certainly do have a lot in common. I just  watched Darcy's proposal to Elizabeth where he very reluctantly confesses his feelings for her but at the same time is brutally honest about his feelings about her family and that socially he'd be marrying beneath himself. Really very "snapeish"... (I could easily imagine Alan Rickman playing Darcy!) Thinking of how Snape is just as brutally honest about how he feels about Harry's father, for example.


Excellent point Spectrespecs. I was also thinking about Darcy's wonderful put-down of Lizzie, when he said 'She is tolerable-looking, I suppose, but not nearly handsome enough to tempt me'. I was actually thinking about Snape's very cruel comment to Hermione after her teeth had grown (GoF), when he said 'I see no difference' - it's definitely in the same vein (although this comment spurred Hermione to fix her buck teeth for good, and Snape knew that the damage could be easily-remedied - whereas Lizzie's looks could not be altered, but then, she wasn't supposed to overhear Darcy's comments)


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"My idea of good company, Mr Elliott, is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company."
"You are mistaken," said he gently, "that is not good company, that is the best."

Persuasion by Jane Austen
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madamros
post Jan 26 2006, 02:16 PM
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Back to Emma. Of course, another similarity between Harry and Emma is that they are both financially-secure. Because of the small fortune in his Gringott's bank vault (and their interest rates are obviously much higher than my bank's!) Harry, like Emma, has never had to worry about money, or rely on second-hand robes or books, in stark contrast to Ron and Ginny (although when he was with the Dursleys it was a different story).
I agree that Harry is similar to Emma in terms of being so sure he is right about the characters of his friends and enemies. In the same way, Snape is similar to Mr Knightly in being the only person who can clearly see faults in Harry and doesn't hesitate to point them out to him (only with considerably less tact!).

There is one thing that occurs to me. Jane Austen thought that she'd created a heroine whom none but herself would like (she was wrong). In the same way, has JKR deliberately set out to create a hero whom none but herself would like? I'm not referring to Harry - if he wasn't likeable no-one would read the books. But JKR has made Snape as unlikeable as she possibly can. (But she has said that she finds his dialogue fun to write). But JKR was wrong, because we all love Snape, don't we? tongue.gif


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"My idea of good company, Mr Elliott, is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company."
"You are mistaken," said he gently, "that is not good company, that is the best."

Persuasion by Jane Austen
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fluffy333
post Jan 26 2006, 06:11 PM
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i'm not quite sure where this thread is headed but thought i'd point out that in OOTP there is also a chapter called the ADVANCE GUARD... might of course just be completely irrelevant but i was sure there was a discussion about it some time last year and i think emmeline vance also makes her 1st appearance there :ponder:

i have no idea of Jane Austen stories, maybe someone could provide a quick summary of those story 'twists' that would be great for others like me to join in.

i very much expect a great story twist (sorry, JKR, no pressure), it would be a bit boring if its just, ok, Harry hunts down the horcruxes, some friend's sacrifice on the way, snape is good, harry finally duels with LV, almot dies but wins, happy end.  *yawn...*
i'd rather have he turns out schizophrenic or something, just something really unexpected.  :headbang:


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madamros
post Jan 27 2006, 06:50 AM
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[quote=fluffy333,Jan. 26 2006,18:11 ]
[quote]
i have no idea of Jane Austen stories, maybe someone could provide a quick summary of those story 'twists' that would be great for others like me to join in.
[/quote]
OK, Fluffy333 here is my brief synopsis of three of Jane Austen's novels - but don't take my word for it, read 'em yourself, or watch the DVDs - Sense and Sensibility is exellent, featuring Alan Rickman, Emma Thompson, Robert Hardy, Elizabeth Spriggs from the HP films .

Emma
Unlike all of Jane Austen's other heroines, Emma is rich, living with her aged and very demanding father. She is extremely egotistical and amuses herself by matchmaking her friends and aquaintances, but fails to see that her own perfect match is right under her nose, in the shape of Mr Knightley. Nearly everyone thinks Emma is wonderful and can do no wrong, but Mr Knightley does not see her through rose-tinted glasses and doesn't hesitate to tell her when she is wrong.
The basic twists are:
She befriends a much poorer girl, Harriet, and attempts to matchmake her with the new vicar, Mr Elton, even though Harriet has had a marriage proposal from Robert Martin.
Because of her excessive attempts to get Harriet and Elton together,  Elton thinks Emma is interested in him.
Emma is interested in Frank Churchill, but he is secretly engaged to Jane Fairfax, much to Emma's embarrassment for her own behaviour when the secret is revealed.
Emma only realises how strong her feelings are for Mr Knightley when her friend Harriet expresses an interest in him.
All ends happily, with Emma marrying Mr Knightley, Harriet marrying Robert Martin, Frank Churchill marries Jane Fairfax and Mr Elton marries a complete cow.

Pride and Prejudice
Mr and Mrs Bennett have five daughters (unfortunately, because the situation is that the house has to go to a son, no son and the house passes to a cousin, Mr Collins, on Mr Bennett's death)
Mrs Bennett is therefore desperate to marry off every one of her daughters, the sooner the better.
The only three daughters who matter to the story are Jane, Elizabeth and Lydia.
Jane attracts the attention of Mr Bingley, a reasonably rich young man who has just moved to the area.
His friend Mr Darcy (gorgeous, extremely rich but very arrogant, proud and very unfriendly) snubs Elizabeth at first ('She is tolerable-looking, I suppose, but not nearly handsome enough to tempt me!)
Elizabeth really dislikes him and is extremely prejudiced against him from early on. This dislike is intensified when she befriends Mr Wickham, who knew Darcy when they were children and lies about him. Elizabeth and everyone else believes the lies of the extremely plausible, friendly and good-looking Wickham.
Jane's romance with Mr Bingley is being extremely hampered by his sisters and Darcy, who are against the match, yet another reason for Lizzie to hate Darcy.
Darcy, meanwhile, has changed his mind about Lizzie and proposes to her. She turns him down.
Gradually, she then finds out about his real character and how Wickham lied to her.
There is a crisis when Wickham runs away with Lydia - the whole Bennett family will be ruined by the scandal!
Darcy comes to the rescue and forces Wickham to marry Lydia (he tries to keep it a secret, but Lydia lets the cat out of the bag)
Lizzie realises she loves Darcy, and they all live happily ever after.

Sense and Sensibility
Mr Dashwood has died, and his house and most of the money has passed to his son by a previous marriage (and his son's awful wife).
His second wife and their three daughters are kicked out of their big National Trust-type house and have to move to a cottage in Devon, rented to them by a cousin.
The book is about the two oldest Dashwood daughters - Elinor, who is very pragmatic and Marianne, who lets her heart rule her head.
Elinor has fallen in love with Edward Ferrars, who is the brother of her awful sister-in-law.
Marianne quickly falls in love with Willoughby, who seems perfect for her. He is to inherit his cousin's estate. She has also attracted the attention of the very rich Colonel Brandon, who is much older than her and she quickly dismisses him as a potential suitor.
Elinor finds out that Edward Ferrars is secretly engaged to Lucy Steele. (But the engagement has been going on for five years, and Edward has gone off her! But he won't treat Lucy badly and break the engagement, because he's a nice guy!)
Marianne was expecting to be proposed to by Willoughby, but instead he does a runner, no explanation given.
Marianne discovers that Willoughby is now engaged to a very rich woman, whose name isn't important. He was disinherited by his cousin Mrs Smith when she found out that he'd made a girl, Eliza, pregnant and refused to marry her. Eliza is the ward of Colonel Brandon (she's not his daughter, but she is the daughter of a woman he loved). Since Willoughby decided that money was more important than love, he dumped Marianne and went in search of a rich woman to marry, the cad. (and of course, leaving Colonel Brandon to pick up the pieces with Eliza and her baby)
Marianne falls seriously ill (despite Brandon's heroic efforts - in the film, anyway!)
But she does recover, and eventually is persuaded that she is in love with Brandon. He gets the girl in the end!
Meanwhile, Lucy Steele has transferred her affections to Edward's awful brother, Robert Ferrars, leaving Edward free to marry Elinor.

Persuasion, Mansfield Park and Northanger Abbey will have to wait for another time - unless anyone else would like to summarise them?


--------------------
"My idea of good company, Mr Elliott, is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company."
"You are mistaken," said he gently, "that is not good company, that is the best."

Persuasion by Jane Austen
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madamros
post Jan 28 2006, 08:08 AM
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OK, more Austem summaries - part II

Starting with my least favourite Austen novel, Northanger Abbey
A parody of the eighteenth century gothic novels which were extremely popular at the time, I don't think this one has passed the test of time. The first half is very good, classic Jane Austen. But once the location of the story moves from Bath to the Abbey, the plot nosedives.
The heroine, Catherine Morland, is very average and not particularly bright. She is the least intelligent heroine Austen created.
She is taken to Bath (the place to be seen in ) by her neighbours, the Allens.
Catherine meets and dances with Henry Tilney, a good-looking, intelligent vicar.
She makes friends with the extremely selfish Isabella Thorpe, who introduces her to gothic novels.
They meet up unexpectedly with Catherine's brother James and Isabella's brother John, who are friends at Oxford. Isabella and James get on famously. John Thorpe is a crushing bore who can only talk of how fast his horses can run. John proceeds to chase after Catherine, even though she isn't remotely interested in him.
Catherine is interested in Henry Tilney, and despite interference from John, manages to befriend Henry's sister Eleanor.
Isabella Thorpe and James Morland get engaged, but Isabella continues to flirt with the men she meets at the Pump Rooms in Bath, especially Henry's brother Frederick.
Catherine is invited to stay at Northanger Abbey by Eleanor and General Tilney, their father. Catherine mistakenly thinks that the Abbey will be a real gothic pile, something straight out of her favourite gothic novels. But, disappointingly, the inside of the building is very modern. Still, Catherine is determined to find evidence of some mystery taking place there, and suggests that maybe General Tilney murdered his wife. (The nerve of her! I'd have sent her packing!)
Whilst at the Abbey, Catherine receives a letter from her brother, telling her that his engagement with Isabella is over. She is now engaged to Frederick Tilney.
Henry and Eleanor convince Catherine that General Tilney would not allow Frederick to marry Isabella, because she has no money. Sure enough, Frederick dumps Isabella.
General Tilney orders Catherine to be sent home (no, he hasn't found out about her accusing him of being a murderer, but he mistakenly thought that her family were very rich (John Thorpe exaggerated her wealth to him), and has just found out the truth)
Catherine arrives home. Henry follows her, and proposes to her. General Tilney is in a much better mood because Eleanor has become engaged to a very rich young man.

Persuasion
One of my favourite Austen novels.
The heroine, Anne Elliot, is the daughter of Sir Walter Elliot, a very vain, proud man. Sir Walter has been exceeding his income for some time, and the family now has little money, so decide to let out their estate and move to a town house in Bath.
Several years before, Anne had fallen in love with Frederick Wentworth, but had been persuaded by a family friend that marrying him would be a bad idea, because he had no money.
So she rejected him.
The estate is let to an Admiral and his wife, who is Captain Wentworth's sister.
Anne  now constantly finds herself in company with Frederick, but he seems interested in the two young Musgrove sisters (related to Anne through her youngest sister's husband)

Anne attracts the attention of Mr Elliot, a cousin who is to inherit the baronetcy from her father on his death (as he has no sons)

The party of friends (anne, Frederick, the Musgroves) go to Lyme Regis to visit some friends of Frederick's. Whilst there, Louisa Musgrove has a serious accident, falling down the steps of the Cobb whilst jumping down into Frederick's arms.
She survives, but is taken to Wentworth's friend's house, and has to stay there for several weeks until she has recovered.

Frederick is worried that he will have to marry Louisa now, even though he has fallen in love again with Anne (though she doesn't know this yet)
He thinks Anne will marry her cousin Mr Elliot.
Louisa falls in love with one of Frederick's friends whilst recovering in Lyme Regis, so Frederick is free to choose someone else.
Anne finds out what Mr Elliot's true character is like. She also realises that Frederick is jealous of Elliot.
No prizes for guessing what happens.

Mansfield Park My favourite Austen novel

Fanny Price, the very shy, quiet, sickly heroine, is sent to live at Mansfield Park with her Aunt and Uncle (Sir Thomas and Lady Bertram) and their four children (Tom, Edmund, Maria and Julia) from the age of ten. Her own family are very poor, and the Bertram's have offered to bring up one of the many children.
Unfortunately, as part of the package, this means that Fanny has to put up with her other aunt, Mrs Norris, an extremely bitter woman who has no children of her own and lives very close to Mansfield Park. She dislikes Fanny intensely.
Fanny's cousins are a few years older than her, and the only one she gets on well with is Edmund, the second oldest.
She gradually falls in love with him, but he only thinks of her as being a younger sister.
Several years later and the girls are all of an age to be married.
Sir Thomas has to go away for several months to Antigua, so is not around to keep an eye on things.
Maria Bertram is soon engaged to Mr Rushworth, an extremely dim but very rich man.
Into the neighbourhood arrive the Crawfords - Mary Crawford, very pretty, rich and lively and her brother Henry, who is actually very plain, but soon has the Bertram sisters under his spell so much that they no longer think of his looks.
Henry proceeds to flirt with Maria, even though she is engaged to Rushworth. Julia is extremely jealous.
Mary Crawford likes Edmund, but hates the fact that he is going to be a vicar.
Fanny observes all of this with dismay. She is the only one who notices what is going on.
Sir Thomas eventually returns from Antigua. Maria marries Rushworth, because Henry will not propose to her.
Mary makes friends with Fanny and Henry decides to flirt with her.
Henry genuinely falls in love with Fanny, but she isn't interested, because she knows what a flirt he is.
Sir Thomas is extremely displeased that Fanny won't accept Henry, and she won't gives her reasons because she would have to admit to him that she loved Edmund, and it would mean ratting on Maria.
Fanny is sent back to her real home in Portsmouth, which is cramped and dirty and noisy, and she hates it. But she has no means of escaping back to Mansfield Park unless the Bertrams invite her back.
Henry Crawford arrives in Portsmouth, and Fanny almost falls in love with him. If she hadn't been aware of his behaviour to Maria (and Julia, he flirted with her too, at the start) she would probably have accepted his proposal.
Henry goes away to London, and whilst there starts seeing Maria again, eventually running away with her, causing a huge scandal.
Julia Bertram elopes and marries
Tom Bertram, the oldest son, has a serious accident and is brought back to Mansfield Park to recover
Edmund proposes to Mary Crawford, but she will not accept him if he is going to be a vicar. So she tuirns him down.
Fanny is summoned back to Mansfield Park, and eventually maries Edmund.
Maria is dumped by Henry Crawford, who regrets not being able to marry Fanny, and Maria has to spend the rest of her life living with Aunt Norris, because Sir Thomas won't allow her back in the house.


--------------------
"My idea of good company, Mr Elliott, is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company."
"You are mistaken," said he gently, "that is not good company, that is the best."

Persuasion by Jane Austen
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LadyOfTheSilent
post Jan 28 2006, 09:04 AM
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I am a big fan of Jane Austen novels but actually I don't think that especially Snape's "roots" are to be found there.
Though Darcy is not the most likeable person one can imagine, he is a determined, honorable man who greatly loves his family and is held in high esteem by a lot of people. I wouldn't call him charming, but there's something elegant and sophisticated about him which does attract Eliza, even if she doesn't want to admit it.
She is indeed prejudiced when it comes to him, especially because of his association with the Bingley women (whom she despises) and her friendship with Colonel Wickham.

Harry, in comparison, doesn't hate Snape for no reason at all. Snape hast been picking at him since he first set foot into the castle. There is absolutely nothing suggesting that Snape is - in fact - a poor, misunderstood man whose motives and actions are entirely honorable. I would rather think that his character might go back to the male anti-heroes of the Bronte sisters like Edward Rochester from Charlotte's "Jane Eyre" or even more Heathcliff Earnshaw from Emily's "Wuthering Heights".

Especially Heathcliff is a dark, sinister and cruel man who seeks revenge on all those who made his childhood hell. After the woman he loves chooses to marry another and finally dies, he doesn't rest until he has destroyed two generations of two families. To me, he is the only character in literature who bears indeed striking similarity to JKR's Severus Snape: His outer appearance as well as his personality might even suggest that JKR took a great deal of inspiration from this novel.

But back to Austen:
Especially when JKR is writing about the pureblood-families, I sometimes feel set back in time, possibly into one of Austen's novels. The arrogance, the arranged marriages, the degenerated appearance of some purebloods reminds me very much of families like the DeBourghs or the Ferrars: All of them can, in the end, not prevent their children/nephews/nieces from marrying someone not exactly fitting their expectations.  

Apart from that, I think there might be little references in the HP-books, but no big similarities. We shouldn't forget that Austen's novels were focussing on romantic relationships and mirroring a society from long ago. While JKR may be a great and inventive writer, she hasn't shown a special talent for writing romantic relationships up to now. It may be that there will be a big revelation in book 7 but the couples we've got to know better in the books 1-6 clearly lack Austen's talent for intertwinig love, conflict and irony.

Greetings,
The Silent


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Heathcliff in Emily Bronte's "Wuthering Heights"
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post Feb 7 2006, 08:20 PM
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thanks, madamros, for your efforts.  flowers.gif

i haven't forgotten about this forum, i'm just really busy, but i'd like to contribute soon.

my first impression:
those 'twists' seem to be mostly the kind of 'dont judge a book by its cover' including happy ends for all the good characters.
We kind of had this happened clearly with the Ludo Bagman character, who seems so friendly, jovial and likeable yet has a history with the DEs.
Then there is the obvious debate about Snape.
ok, i'll leave it here, my comments are getting too superficial now, like to mull it over, and get back to it.  :type:

cheers.


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