Once a King or Queen of Narnia, Always a King or Queen of Narnia, What does it mean to be royal in Narnia? |
 Nov 2 2008, 12:11 AM
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Madame Pince's House Elf  Posts: 4,606 Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005 Location: In HP Book Club 4, awaiting the HBP film's release   |
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE ROYAL IN NARNIA? At the end of The Horse and his boy, set during the joint reigns of the High King Peter, then fighting giants in the North, Queen Susan, the Gentle, King Edmund the Just and Queen Lucy, the Valiant, King Lune of Archenland, between Calormen and Narnia, tells Shasta that he is the heir to the throne. King Lune, always a Narnian ally, shares these thoughts about kingship with Shasta: 'The king's under the law, for it's the law makes him a king. Hast no more power to start away from thy crown than any sentry from his post.' King Lune then goes on to say: 'For this is what it means to be a king: to be first in every desperate attack and last in every desperate retreat, and when there is hunger in the land...to wear finer clothes and laugh louder over a scantier meal than any man in your land' Unlike Rabadash, the heir to the Calormene throne, Prince Corin is ecstatic to be let out of being king. Corin says 'princes have all the fun'. Whereas Rabadash risks losing his throne by invading Archenland in an attempt to recover the person of Queen Susan, recently escaped from Tashbaan, where she and her brother King Edmund were 'guests' of the Tisroc. The Tisroc (may he live forever) has eighteen other sons should anything happen to Rabadash. Shasta has already met three of the four Pevensie monarchs. King Edmund mistook him for Prince Corin, and so he became privy to his and Queen Susan's plans to escape, along with their entourage. When riding to the relief of Anvard, King Edmund, Queen Lucy and their army also collect Shasta along the way. And Aravis also witnesses a meeting between Ahoshta, her intended husband, the Tisroc and Rabadash. What do we learn about the way the four Pevensie children rule as Kings and Queens of Narnia? What does it mean to be royal in Narnia? What is your opinion of the Tisroc and Rabadash as rulers? How do you think these characters and their court regard royalty and its duties? Does what King Lune say about kingship apply to all of these rulers as well as himself? Or does King Lune show us an impossible ideal for the supreme ruler for any country? What is the symbolism in Shasta, who ran away from being sold as a slave in Calormen, becoming King of Archenland? Why is Aravis an ideal consort for him? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ At the conclusion of The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, when the four Pevensies return to our world, once again children, Professor Kirke tells them; 'Once a King or Queen of Narnia, always a King or Queen of Narnia. Bear it well, bear it well'. In Prince Caspian all four Pevensie children return to Narnia, having been summoned there by Queen Susan's horn, part of her original Narnian Christmas present. Their job in Narnia is to aid and assist Prince Caspian, the true heir to the Narnian throne, which has been usurped by Caspian's uncle Miraz. Yet the Pevensies, themselves, have been, and still remain, kings and queens of Narnia. Why was Miraz regarded as more of a tyrant than his Telmarine predecessors? In what ways do you think any of those Telmarine predecessors could have been measured against King Lune's ideals about Kingship? What is the significance and symbolism of Peter Pevensie being the one to fight King Miraz in single combat? Why not Prince Caspian himself, who wanted to avenge his father? Why does Aslan ask Prince Caspian if he feels himself sufficient to take up the kingship? And why on receiving his answer does he tell Prince Caspian "Good...If you felt yourself sufficient it would be proof that you were not". These questions are only to start discussions about anything and everything to do with kingship and leadership in Narnia. This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Nov 2 2008, 02:27 PM --------------------  Check out the Beedle the Bard Book Club |
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Nov 7 2008, 07:18 PM
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One Half of the DDD  Posts: 8,476 Joined: 5:31pm August 30, 2006 Location: Siriusly Dreaming Somewhere |
QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Nov 2 2008, 05:11 AM)  Why does Aslan ask Prince Caspian if he feels himself sufficient to take up the kingship? And why on receiving his answer does he tell Prince Caspian "Good...If you felt yourself sufficient it would be proof that you were not". I think this was nicely summed up by Scottish comedian, Billy Connolly, who once said "The desire to become a politician should automatically ban you from ever being one!" by which he meant that someone wanting that amount of power was probably someone who would abuse it and not use that power to improve the lives of others rather than his own. I've heard similar things said about parenthood, that the best parents are the ones who worry about whether they're doing the right thing: are they meting out enough discipline or too much discipline, etc? People who don't question their own decision-making and policies tend not to care enough about the people those decisions affect. Caspian isn't sure that he's good enough to be king which shows that he wants to be as good as he can be and will strive to be even better which shows Aslan that he will have the welfare of his subjects at heart and will, therefore, be a good king. --------------------  November's book is The Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!" |
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Nov 7 2008, 07:38 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 202 Joined: 3:24am June 3, 2008 Location: Enjoying the latest HP book club |
What is your opinion of the Tisroc and Rabadash as rulers? How do you think these characters and their court regard royalty and its duties?
I think they just like enjoying their situation. Rabadash and his dad would have liked to enjoy dominating everywhere, but even the Tisroc felt that Rabadash was a bit rash to dash off. (couldn't resist that). Rabadash as a ruler ended up too afraid to go too far away from Tashbaan, so he had to stop all his lords from doing the same lest they revolt against him. I think their underlings spoiled and flattered the Tisroc and Rabadash for fear of getting into trouble. Or does King Lune show us an impossible ideal for the supreme ruler for any country? It would be interesting to see if there ever has been a supreme ruler who would have measured up to King Lune's ideals What is the symbolism in Shasta, who ran away from being sold as a slave in Calormen, becoming King of Archenland? Why is Aravis an ideal consort for him? I think that as King Shasta would need to work as hard as in Calormen to learn all he needed to know and that he would be a slave to duty. Aravis has also learned a thing or two. She is in as high a position or higher as she would have been had she married Ahoshta Tarkaan but she has learned a bit of humility which is why she'd be a good ruler. She has learned how unfair she was to the maid who got beaten because of her. |
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Nov 11 2008, 03:19 PM
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Madame Pince's House Elf Posts: 4,606 Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005 Location: In HP Book Club 4, awaiting the HBP film's release |
QUOTE(Dreamteam @ Nov 8 2008, 11:18 AM) Caspian isn't sure that he's good enough to be king which shows that he wants to be as good as he can be and will strive to be even better which shows Aslan that he will have the welfare of his subjects at heart and will, therefore, be a good king. A strong thread which unites these two particular Narnia books is just the point you are making. A good leader has to have the welfare of his subjects at heart, the humility to criticize himself, to put himself in other people's place, and to want to be as good as he can be. Thus Caspian shows Aslan that he is not going to be like his Uncle Miraz, who has the over-confidence to kill his brother to seize for himself the throne, and the power to decide for others that goes with it. Perhaps that, too, is what fits Shasta to also be a good king, that he has had experience of what it is like to be one of the least in the kingdom, where he had no idea that he was the legal heir to the throne. And that is also why it was necessary for Aravis to experience what it was like to be beaten the way her maid was, when she escaped from her enforced marriage. What is the significance and symbolism of Peter Pevensie being the one to fight King Miraz in single combat? Why not Prince Caspian himself, who wanted to avenge his father? I think that the significance of Peter being the one to fight King Miraz is that as Narnia's only High King, he is the one who would have ultimate authority over other kings, including King Miraz, his own brother and sisters and Caspian as well. Isn't that also the point brought out in the film of Prince Caspian, soon to come out on DVD? -------------------- Check out the Beedle the Bard Book Club |
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Nov 11 2008, 07:45 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 202 Joined: 3:24am June 3, 2008 Location: Enjoying the latest HP book club |
QUOTE Caspian isn't sure that he's good enough to be king which shows that he wants to be as good as he can be and will strive to be even better which shows Aslan that he will have the welfare of his subjects at heart and will, therefore, be a good king. I think this is a point about leadership, if not kingship, which can be found throughout the Narnia series. Jadis would rather destroy the world than accept defeat from her sister, and is determined to rule the world forever once she takes over Narnia. Although the Tisroc might be unaware of the change in regime in Narnia, one does take place nonetheless, replaced by a better regime. The Tisroc has subjects who keep saying 'May he live forever', even though even he is only too aware that he won't. Miraz, having killed Caspian's father, wants to kill him, too, once his own son is born. It wasn't because he actually wanted to be king that Caspian fled for his life, and then found himself leading the rebellion against Miraz. When King Lune makes his observations about leadership it is in full knowledge that if he is a good king he will be remembered well, but if he is a bad king he will invite disaffection and rebellion. Perhaps Caspian is also aware of this. Didn't Dumbledore also say something about this? |
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Nov 24 2008, 05:41 PM
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Madame Pince's House Elf Posts: 4,606 Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005 Location: In HP Book Club 4, awaiting the HBP film's release |
QUOTE(bunya dragon @ Nov 12 2008, 11:45 AM) I think this is a point about leadership, if not kingship, which can be found throughout the Narnia series. ....When King Lune makes his observations about leadership it is in full knowledge that if he is a good king he will be remembered well, but if he is a bad king he will invite disaffection and rebellion. Perhaps Caspian is also aware of this. Didn't Dumbledore also say something about this? Yes Dumbledore did say something about tyrants creating their own enemies and how they fear the people they oppress. This was in the Horcruxes chapter in HBP. Actually there is quite a good anti-slavery message throughout the Narnia series as well: Good leaders and monarchs don't enslave their subjects, but bad ones do. In both Magician's Nephew and The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, Jadis treats others as slaves, and minions. It might have been a joke in London, but when she ruled in Narnia, Jadis kept the place in perpetual winter with no Christmas to look forward to. From bottom upwards, Calormene society tolerates and promotes slavery, and it is slavery that Shasta tries to escape from. Susan and Edmund reflect that marriage to Rabadash might well be a kind of slavery, given his attitudes to the rest of the world. Later on, Caspian gets a taste of slavery himself, when he visits the Lone Islands. And eventually Narnia collapses when the Calormenes finally succeed in penetrating the country and then enslaving the Narnians. Miraz merely continues the Telmarine policy of marginalizing the Old Narnians, denying their existence, let alone their needs, and when he finds out they oppose him, he tries to destroy them. Though he also oppresses those who supported his older brother, Caspian the Ninth, in what ways does he also enslave his people? This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Nov 24 2008, 06:00 PM -------------------- Check out the Beedle the Bard Book Club |
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Dec 3 2008, 09:33 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 202 Joined: 3:24am June 3, 2008 Location: Enjoying the latest HP book club |
QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Nov 24 2008, 05:41 PM) Miraz merely continues the Telmarine policy of marginalizing the Old Narnians, denying their existence, let alone their needs, and when he finds out they oppose him, he tries to destroy them. Though he also oppresses those who supported his older brother, Caspian the Ninth, in what ways does he also enslave his people? Judging by that journey Lucy and Susan undertook with Aslan, there were several examples of people being enslaved, such as the schoolteacher having to teach unpleasantly behaving students or the schoolgirl forced to learn an untrue history. There was the bridge at Beruna, constricting a free-flowing stream, instead of a ford already supplied for people to cross. People were stopped by fear from going into the forests, and fear also stopped the Telmarines from exploring the ocean. This is strange. Didn't Aslan also tell the Telmarines that they were the descendants of pirates, that is to say, outlaw seafarers? |
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Feb 6 2009, 01:45 AM
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Knight MacMod The Great Protecting The Memory Of Sense Posts: 2,430 Joined: 7:17pm February 17, 2006 Location: 3rd door on the left, Hogsmeade  |
QUOTE(bunya dragon @ Dec 3 2008, 06:33 PM) QUOTE(WaggaWaggaWerewolf @ Nov 24 2008, 05:41 PM) Miraz merely continues the Telmarine policy of marginalizing the Old Narnians, denying their existence, let alone their needs, and when he finds out they oppose him, he tries to destroy them. Though he also oppresses those who supported his older brother, Caspian the Ninth, in what ways does he also enslave his people? Judging by that journey Lucy and Susan undertook with Aslan, there were several examples of people being enslaved, such as the schoolteacher having to teach unpleasantly behaving students or the schoolgirl forced to learn an untrue history. There was the bridge at Beruna, constricting a free-flowing stream, instead of a ford already supplied for people to cross. People were stopped by fear from going into the forests, and fear also stopped the Telmarines from exploring the ocean.[emphasis mine, wam] This is strange. Didn't Aslan also tell the Telmarines that they were the descendants of pirates, that is to say, outlaw seafarers?So, I have to pity the Telmarines. They are slaves to their own desires for power and wealth and their own fears of the Truth. It's a miserable existence. This post has been edited by wordsaremagic: Feb 6 2009, 01:48 AM --------------------  click the Q "And, if there is need to speak in brief summary of this power, we shall find that none of the things which are done with intelligence take place without the help of speech, but that in all our actions as well as in all our thoughts speech is our guide, . . ." Isocrates, Antidosis |
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