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Lexicon Steve Case: Part IV, Continued discussion here

DorisTLC View Member Profile	Jan 29 2008, 09:53 PM Post #1
Waiting for Wednesdays Posts: 9,233 Joined: 7:57am January 28, 2005 Location: Hiding from Hurricanes	Hi everyone, Since Part III of this discussion was nearing 50 pages we've closed it and opened this thread to continue the discussion. You can find Part I and Part II at the links I just provided. You'll also find a thread titled "The Impact of this suit on Fandom" thread here. I do ask that we all remember to remain calm, and fair in our discussion of this topic. I understand that this is a sensitive topic, I just ask that before you post you look at your words with the eyes of an outsider. Thanks everyone, Doris -------------------- My Avon Breast Cancer Walk Page and Blog! I'm In It to End It!

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Maime the Hunter View Member Profile	Jan 30 2008, 12:11 AM Post #2
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007	QUOTE The Harry Potter Lexicon is an unofficial fan web site and is not associated in any way with J. K. Rowling, Warner Bros., or any other official entity. The Lexicon is committed to upholding copyright law and does not knowingly use any images or text illegally. This Lexicon contains spoiler information from all the Harry Potter books. Is this new? Does he need permission to have the cover art displayed from Scholastic? And this is at the bottom of the page: QUOTE HARRY POTTER, characters, names, and all related indicia are trademarks of Warner Bros. ©2001-2007. The title page, except for the disclaimer, is curiously "Jo" free as noted. This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Jan 30 2008, 12:26 AM

davidenglish View Member Profile	Jan 30 2008, 12:40 AM Post #3
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,606 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Jan 30 2008, 06:11 AM) QUOTE The Harry Potter Lexicon is an unofficial fan web site and is not associated in any way with J. K. Rowling, Warner Bros., or any other official entity. The Lexicon is committed to upholding copyright law and does not knowingly use any images or text illegally. This Lexicon contains spoiler information from all the Harry Potter books. Is this new? Does he need permission to have the cover art displayed from Scholastic? Ah, excellent. I didn't see that on the ENTER page of the HPL. I usually go straight to the What's New or Index. As for permission from Bloomsbury and Scholastic, well, I'm not sure. In terms of news reporting, probably not. And if it's a thumbnail cover linking to Amazon, no permission is needed. However, I suspect images from inside the Scholastic books --the British books only have artwork on the cover-- used to decorated chapter summaries or illustrate entries in the HPL would probably need permission or at least cite a reference. And, checking the entry on OotP, this is done. I'm not sure why Mary GrandPre's illustrations are listed © Warner Bros and not Scholastic, but perhaps that has something to do with them being outside the context of the book. Still, I'm not sure what SVA means by being "committed to upholding copyright law". Perhaps he did not ask for CLLA's permission to publish so he could truthfully say he wasn't knowingly using any text illegally? This post has been edited by davidenglish: Jan 30 2008, 12:44 AM -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

Hinoema View Member Profile	Jan 30 2008, 03:00 AM Post #4
Rat Spleen Restocker at the Apothecary Posts: 498 Joined: 3:02pm March 30, 2005	Version 4, yaay! Food for thought- I remember SVA/RDR alluding to other HP companion books. Several of those seem to have JKR listed as a copyright holder. For example, Harry Potter and the chamber of secrets [by] J. K. Rowling : a study guide / written by Garett Christopher ; edited by Joyce Friedland and Rikki Kessler (and all other such guides), Muggle studies workbook for Harry Potter and the sorcerer's stone / written by Linda DeGeronimo and Anne Diehl, and such things as the shooting scripts for various movies. QUOTE(davidenglish) I'm not sure why Mary GrandPre's illustrations are listed © Warner Bros and not Scholastic, but perhaps that has something to do with them being outside the context of the book. It looks like a mistake to me. The illustrated versions of the HP books are registered as copyright to both JKR and Mary Grandpre. To the best of my knowledge, a webmaster slapping a copyright symbol on a website doesn't mean a lot in and of itself. Also, the HP Lexicon doesn't seem to exist as an actual entity of any sort, like TLC Inc (for example) as the entity behind the Leaky Cauldron site. I see the potential confusion, if I'm reading David's post correctly. Say, for example, that the court asks about the C&D to WB about the time line. SVA says the time line is 'copyright the HP Lexicon'. The judge can then ask 'Who's that, then?' If the supposed copyright holder of this time line can't be legally defined as an entity, it may be hard to uphold it's rights (assuming any such exist in the matter of a time line from another's copyrighted works). I suppose what I'm getting at is that, I would think, saying that X content on the Lexicon site is copyright the website doesn't mean much if no entity meant to be 'The HP Lexicon' is definable. Oh- This post has been edited by Hinoema: Jan 30 2008, 07:09 AM -------------------- The Et Al

davidenglish View Member Profile	Jan 30 2008, 10:35 AM Post #5
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,606 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	Well, SVA's contract with RDR, see here, states that "the Author represents that he has the power and the Authority to grant the said rights to the Work herein granted and he is authorized to receive all royalties." If the website has all original material listed as © The Harry Potter Lexicon, then SVA either is operating as the HPL or the HPL is incorporated and SVA has signing authority. I doubt the latter as there's usually Inc or Co or Ltd as part of the name. In the contract, the Author indemnifies the Publisher against copyright infringement lawsuits brought by anyone except JKR and her licensees or her assignees. I'm not sure that the HPL quotes extensively from anyone else, but we do know that it's been a collective work and not solely written by SVA. So far only WB/JKR have sued RDR Books. I haven't heard of any members of the HPL staff, present or past, objecting to the use of their work in this book. I have read of several essay writers who wanted to know if essays were to be published. That might have caused trouble, but no essays are in the book. I don't know if Lexicon staff sign waivers when they join assigning copyright of anything they might write to SVA or The Harry Potter Lexicon. If they haven't, they might want to consult a lawyer. My suspicion is that all HPL staff, present and past, are remaining neutral in the hopes that the website will survive this "unpleasantness". -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

MelissaTLC View Member Profile	Jan 30 2008, 11:21 AM Post #6
MelvinTLC Posts: 2,696 Joined: 1:57pm January 4, 2005 Location: My happy place	Just a quick corrcection to a previous post: the Lexicon still currently does not pay for its hosting. I will update our statement on this issue as soon as that changes. The timing is only owed to busy schedules. -------------------- "I am not big enough to love things the way I do!" ~Edna St. Vincent Millay

Maime the Hunter View Member Profile	Jan 30 2008, 01:07 PM Post #7
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007	I hope no one minds if I veer off to claim of Education or Intellectual value of the Lexicon. This observation is addressed to teachers and college professors first, but I'm interested in the opinions and experience of parents and students also. There was mention earlier on religious personally penned commetary on analogies Jo has made to Hitler, slavery, genocide. Frankly as a parent, if my child social studies or history teacher refers her/him Harry Potter rather than the Diary of Anne Frank and other collections of letters and stories of people from both sides of the war to to do a report child's perspective World War II ,it is time speak with the principal and the school board about his qualifications. As far as I know--although it's a very good starting point--some teachers are shaky about the Wiki when it comes to history. I think there is Library of Congress website--I love those commercials--but the LOC as far as American Events are a wonderful source when you want to get a feel for what people said and thought at the time. There are similar sources for historical events in England, and other countries in Europe, Asia, and Africa, starting with the individual country's official website. The BBC website is a wonderful source of immediate information about history and politics on the British Isles and includes links to other resources. However, if a teacher gave the following assignment: discuss the historical and social refences that may have influenced Harry Potter, would the Lexicon figure on the list of possible reference? This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Jan 30 2008, 01:10 PM

sdcurtis View Member Profile	Jan 30 2008, 01:40 PM Post #8
Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 421 Joined: 4:30pm March 12, 2006	I was browsing RDR's website and I will say it's amazing how slow they are to put up articles, but I found this one rather interesting. The author tries to drag the Digital Millennium Copyright Act into the mix. Which after reading said law has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, but it could be the argument RDR tries to make in it's response. By the same token the guy closed his comment section after people told him that he was missing the point. His main argument is QUOTE The question before the house, then, is whether Rowling's approval of the Harry Potter Lexicon website and her failure to issue a Digital Millennium Copyright Act takedown notice will operate to waive her right to stop the Lexicon from being published as a book or alternatively constitute fair use of her work.(Williams 07) The DMCA only applies to websites and their operation (at least in this case that would be the application). My guess is this is what RDRs defense will be. This post has been edited by sdcurtis: Jan 30 2008, 01:42 PM --------------------

davidenglish View Member Profile	Jan 30 2008, 02:10 PM Post #9
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,606 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Jan 30 2008, 06:07 PM) Frankly as a parent, if my child social studies or history teacher refers her/him Harry Potter rather than the Diary of Anne Frank and other collections of letters and stories of people from both sides of the war to to do a report child's perspective World War II ,it is time speak with the principal and the school board about his qualifications. As far as I know--although it's a very good starting point--some teachers are shaky about the Wiki when it comes to history. Well, I sincerely doubt that Harry Potter is taught in social studies. However, if Harry Potter is taught in English class, the teacher would be wise to ask how HP relates to the real world, what are the themes, how do these themes mirror events in our world, and what is the message HP brings to these issues. Those are all valid approaches to critical analysis. Indeed, a bright student might even write an essay on the influence of Anne Frank on Harry Potter. QUOTE However, if a teacher gave the following assignment: discuss the historical and social refences that may have influenced Harry Potter, would the Lexicon figure on the list of possible reference? Nope. I'm afraid not. I checked a couple of entries where there might be links to our real world and the HPL offers nothing. The Lexicon doesn't seem to have delved too deep into the connection between our world and the wizarding world. There might be something in the Essays, but I only saw one that refered to WWII and so I don't think there'd be much. Now, a student might have more success reading the essays in Scribbulus, but that's not the HPL. And those essays would be beneficial because they have excellent bibliographies that would lead a student to titles in the library. sdcurtis, I believe WB/JKR's lawyer, Dale Cendali, knows the DMCA inside and out. If they think they can stump her on this matter, they'd better watch out. See her bio here. This post has been edited by davidenglish: Jan 30 2008, 02:15 PM -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

Essence_of_Insan... Essence_of_Insanity View Member Profile	Jan 30 2008, 02:25 PM Post #10
Monster Book Stacker Posts: 394 Joined: 8:52am November 7, 2006	QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Jan 30 2008, 01:07 PM) However, if a teacher gave the following assignment: discuss the historical and social refences that may have influenced Harry Potter, would the Lexicon figure on the list of possible reference? Again, I have not looked much of the Lexicon site, and it may just be me, but using the Lexicon as an academic source feels like using wikipedia as a academic source. Maybe it's just me prefering original sources and using and developing good researching skills. Think of all the local libraries that are teeming with information on historical information and have multiple copies of Harry Potter. Teachers should be encouraging students to use original texts and using the internet with great discretion. It's not that I don't trust that the people at the Lexicon aren't being careful, it's just that there are better sources than the Lexicon out there. That, and students need to learn how to come up with those answers themselves instead of going to some place on the internet. I used a scribbulus essay once to help me with my Harry Potter essay freshman year, but I tried to avoid using the Leixcon as an actual source because it isn't the best one out there and I didn't see anything that could facilitate what I was trying to do with my paper. This post has been edited by Essence_of_Insanity: Jan 30 2008, 02:38 PM

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