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Lexicon Steve Lawsuit, Take III, Continuing to discuss the logistics here

MJLeakyCon View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 01:16 AM Post #1
She Who Channels Rita Skeeter Posts: 2,938 Joined: 11:40pm January 17, 2006 Location: Twiddling My Time-Turner	Continue the discussion about Lexicon Steve and the pending lawsuit vs. JK Rowling and Warner Brothers here. Part II of this discussion can be found here. Modly reminder: Observe the LeakyLounge rules and be nice. Nothing less will be tolerated. Thank you so much! Happy posting! futureweasley Leaky Moderator -------------------- Sig Image by Brian Ross (DatM) and avi by Jeffhpfan

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Replies (1 - 9)

davidenglish View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 11:38 AM Post #2
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,605 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	Well, I'll start off the new thread by thanking Alraune for remembering a snippet of conversation between John Noe and Steve Vander Ark that happened in PotterCast #61 way back on October 29, 2006. Yes, that would be a full year before the lawsuit was filed. Here it is: QUOTE JN: Well, that's what makes (SVA:* Yeah.)* it all so interesting. I think if every question was answerable, there'd be a lot less wonder (SU:* Yeah.)* about these books and even after this last one comes (SU:* Mm.)* out, she, you know, puts out an encyclopedia and answers every possible question that could be answered, it may make it less interesting (SVA:* Yeah.)* for people who may read the books for the first time afer everything's out. SVA: Kinda ruins the whole Lexicon, too! (all laugh) JN: It may make a whole Lexicon a copyright infringement. SU: No! JN: If it, if it mirrors the encyclopedia. JE: Maybe she'll just publish a book that says, go to http... SU: There you go! (all laugh) SVA: Go to the Lexicon! Oh, can you imagine? JN: Appreciate that! SVA: Oh! (SU laughs) Jo, we love you! (laughs) JN: Oh, well... Now, for a recap of what we hope to be discussing this month. If I recall correctly, WB/JKR must hand RDR Books on Monday, January 7th, their formal complaint, that is, a list of all the infringing material in the proposed book. Remember: WB/JKR were not given a copy of the manuscript until a week after they filed the lawsuit. Indeed, they had to sue to be shown it. I suspect this will take the form of a heavily annotated manuscript of the proposed book outlining what WB/JKR consider infringes copyright or violates trademark. RDR Books will have two weeks to answer this complaint point by point. They could offer to negotiate by changing the text of the proposed book. Or their Stanford law professors might work up a Fair Use case as an answer. Whatever they do, this is where the courtcase will be outlined and the tough decisions of how to proceed get made. If there is no movement to resolve the dispute, the two opposing teams of lawyers will fiind themselves before a judge on February 6th. And then it will be up to the best legal argument whether we see a book or not. Well, not really. Whoever loses has the option to appeal. But the first victor generally has the high ground and, unless there are serious errors in the judge's reasoning, it is usually a portent of things to come. This post has been edited by davidenglish: Jan 3 2008, 12:14 PM -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

wondering View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 02:36 PM Post #3
Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 153 Joined: 9:30am December 6, 2007 Location: Feet on the ground; head in the clouds.	I am so disappointed that Fandom w--- missed SVA's update. I am trying to avoid much of the discussion until after the next legal round. I think SVA gets slimier every time I read him. I can't buy into his "I'm so noble and naive" act. I'm not calling the man a liar just disingenuous. I've read criticism phrased at the Lexicon when it's really directed at SVA. I think some people are uncomfortable directing negative comments at an individual - it's seen as cruel. By substituting the Lexicon for SVA, they more freely (and creatively) express their thoughts. I've seen nothing unkind directed at the staffers. Does anyone else find SVA's speaking for JKR disturbing? It's almost as if he sees her as an intimate friend. There's an element of association/imagination run amok that (to quote a teenager) creeps me out. In this, SVA reminds me of some friends I have who are avid roleplayers. Role-playing in real-life, not just on-line. At times, they seem befuddled as to where their game persona ends and their real-life begins. It's rather pathetic to see - I mean that in the compassionate and contemptuous sense. Alraune: Great catch on the last post. You have an impressive memory! -------------------- I'm forever blowing bubbles, pretty bubbles in the air. On you Irons!

Vicky-the-house-... Vicky-the-house-elf View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 04:32 PM Post #4
Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 299 Joined: 1:07pm July 8, 2005 Location: Potions classroom haunted by Snape	QUOTE(davidenglish @ Jan 3 2008, 10:38 AM) Now, for a recap of what we hope to be discussing this month. If I recall correctly, WB/JKR must hand RDR Books on Monday, January 7th, their formal complaint, that is, a list of all the infringing material in the proposed book. Remember: WB/JKR were not given a copy of the manuscript until a week after they filed the lawsuit. Indeed, they had to sue to be shown it. I suspect this will take the form of a heavily annotated manuscript of the proposed book outlining what WB/JKR consider infringes copyright or violates trademark. RDR Books will have two weeks to answer this complaint point by point. They could offer to negotiate by changing the text of the proposed book. Or their Stanford law professors might work up a Fair Use case as an answer. Whatever they do, this is where the courtcase will be outlined and the tough decisions of how to proceed get made. If there is no movement to resolve the dispute, the two opposing teams of lawyers will fiind themselves before a judge on February 6th. And then it will be up to the best legal argument whether we see a book or not. Well, not really. Whoever loses has the option to appeal. But the first victor generally has the high ground and, unless there are serious errors in the judge's reasoning, it is usually a portent of things to come. Thank you davidenglish for the recap, I'd forgotten about the Jan 7th date. Will the Jan 7th formal complaint be a public document that we will be able to view? I would think yes, but I've learned in law nothing is certain or simple. Thank you so much for explaining the legal issues in words I can understand Vicky This post has been edited by Vicky-the-house-elf: Jan 3 2008, 04:33 PM

roonwit View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 04:52 PM Post #5
Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic Posts: 9,192 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK	QUOTE(Vicky-the-house-elf @ Jan 3 2008, 09:32 PM) Thank you davidenglish for the recap, I'd forgotten about the Jan 7th date. Will the Jan 7th formal complaint be a public document that we will be able to view? I would think yes, but I've learned in law nothing is certain or simple. Thank you so much for explaining the legal issues in words I can understand An interesting question, but it seems unlikely that an annotated copy of the text would appear since that would be equivalent to publishing it, and I am not convinced either side would want that. We might get a summary though, which would still be interesting to read. -------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo

Fer_keeper View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 05:03 PM Post #6
Gringott's Cart Axle Greaser Posts: 2,789 Joined: 5:22pm February 18, 2007 Location: Argentina	QUOTE(Vicky-the-house-elf @ Jan 3 2008, 06:32 PM) Thank you so much for explaining the legal issues in words I can understand Vicky I second that! It is hard for me to follow all that specific lawyer lingo, but, at the same time, I am really interested in this. I really appreciated that recap davidenglish! I know this has little to do with the law suit per se, but wondering made me think about something I found funny, even more than SVA speaking for JKR (something I had no idea of, to be honest). He sometimes speaks for us, fans, like in that video from last year conventions. I am aware that many "fandom celebrities" speak for us, but they do it with respect or at least with the humility that one would hope a good journalist/fan/critic has. Anyways, what I am trying to say is that I don't buy his "sandbox" argument and he shouldn't try to shove it up our throats like a preacher or something of the sort. This post has been edited by Fer_keeper: Jan 3 2008, 05:15 PM -------------------- Oh, well, thank you very much, very nice of you. Your vote of confidence is overwhelming. -The Princess Bride, Grampa

davidenglish View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 05:43 PM Post #7
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,605 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	Well, my impression is that all the to-ing and fro-ing this month will be private or, as lawyers like to say, in camera. Which is just fancy Latin talk for "behind closed doors". This is what, I think, is called "discovery" in criminal cases. This is a civil case and so we're only likely to hear what RDR or WB/JKR are going to tell us. I'm rather hoping to hear RDR thump his chest and declare that WB/JKR's charges are outrageous and groundless and that he's "not yet begun to fight". Certainly by late January we'll know if it really is going to end up before a judge. And then it is likely to be just the various arguments of infringement that we're going to see posted publicly. Of course, it's a big question is it really does infringe. After all, we do know that it's only about a third of the online HPLexicon. We also know that it is devoid or artwork, essays and long quotes of verse. So, what's in it? I'd bet that what WB/JKR focus on is the title and the conflating of the book with the website. RDR has so relentlessly linked the website with the book that it's tantamount to suggesting that JKR has given the book an award and an endorsement. However, if the book is but an abridgement of the website, it can't be considered the same thing. So, I expect to see a great deal of focus on the Title and very specific complaints about the percentage of quotation. This will work against RDR as all this free publicity will only highlight how limited this book version of the free website is. And if it's just a dictionary of people, places and magic in the Potterverse, well, there are already several competing books out there. -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

sdcurtis View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 08:06 PM Post #8
Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 421 Joined: 4:30pm March 12, 2006	Ok I was just on RDR's website to see if they had updated anything and I found this bit in the Q&A portion of their website interesting. QUOTE Does the Lexicon comply with the Fair Use doctrine promoted by the Copyright Act? Based on the opinions of the several publishing attorneys Mr. Rapoport and Mr. Vander Ark consulted before undertaking any plans or arrangements to create a print media version of The Harry Potter Lexicon, the controlling copyright and trademark legal precedent is quite clear. There is no doubt that they are within their rights in publishing this work just like 46 other publishers who have published similar works of Potter criticism and analysis not being sued by Warner Bros. or Ms. Rowling. We ask that the public - and particularly fans of J.K. Rowling and the Harry Potter novels - withhold judgment until all the facts are in evidence and a court judge has ruled on the legal issues. It still boggles my mind that they keep associate this with a the books of criticism and analysis that are out there when we have it straight from the horses mouth, so to speak, that the book form of the Lexicon is cutting all that out. I don't see RDR willing to make the changes that would make the book legal. Call me a tad skeptical, but they seemed bound and determined to drag this whole thing in front of a judge. At least that was my impression at the forum. --------------------

Notit Whatknot View Member Profile	Jan 3 2008, 11:59 PM Post #9
Monster Book Stacker Posts: 387 Joined: 7:26pm July 27, 2006 Location: Somewhere in North America	Who is RDR? And why would a single person be stupid enough to take on JK Rowling and Warner Brothers? -------------------- Jk, the book was great, but about the epilogue... don't you think it needs a few more chapters? Oooh! I have an idea!!! There could be another book (Hint, Hint)! : ) Thanks

davidenglish View Member Profile	Jan 4 2008, 12:29 AM Post #10
Official Singer of the Sorting Hat Song Posts: 6,605 Joined: 3:12pm July 22, 2005 Location: Lost in Hermione's beaded bag	QUOTE(Notit @ Jan 4 2008, 04:59 AM) Who is RDR? And why would a single person be stupid enough to take on JK Rowling and Warner Brothers? RDR Books, which I presume is named after owner Roger Rapoport, is the publisher who wants to print the book version of the HP Lexicon. RDR Books is a tiny publishing house from Muskegon, MI, a stone's throw from where Steve Vander Ark was living. RDR apparently grossed about $100K last year, which would make it a very small press indeed. Although it seems Rapoport read a story about the Lexicon in August and approached SVA about a book, Steve has said recently that he had been trying to discuss a book version of the HPL with WB/JKR as early as the spring of this year. Why he would sign with a tiny press that couldn't even afford to pay him an advance on royalties is a mystery. The American doctrine of Fair Use (and the Commonwealth concept of Fair Dealing to a lesser extent) does allow books of academic criticism and scholarly review. The website contains far too much directly quoted and paraphrased material, as well as trademarked images, to pass a test of Fair Use. However, the proposed book is not the website "verbatim" as RDR initially claimed, but only about a third of the website's material. So, the big question we're waiting to see resolved is whether the abridged and expurgated manuscript that RDR handed over to WB/JKR manages to meet the definition of Fair Use. Will WB/JKR object to it entirely? Will they merely object to parts of it and suggest changes? It'll all be clearer in five weeks time. Of course, Roger Rapoport might be crazy like a fox. The lawsuit certainly garnered more publicity than he could ever have hoped to generate by normal PR. The downside is that he has to succeed or he faces financial ruin. WB/JKR have said they aren't interested in a monetary award, but RDR has sold foreign rights to Britain, Canada, France and Australia. And those publishers aren't likely to be so generous to Mr Rapoport for getting them into this fix. And, sadly, each player in this tragicomedy has their own vested interest. Rapoport's is different from SVA's, JKR's from WB's, and Stanford's FUP's interest is different from RDR's. And, of course, Fandom has divided on the issue and is worried about the future of fansites. It's a terrible mess and one wishes SVA had talked more openly about it to his friends and colleagues in Fandom before he signed a contract. This business just gives the impression of SVA as being something of a loner and outside of the mainstream fandom, which comes as a surprise to many. -------------------- Come the words that bubble Up through broken laughter, Sweeter than spring-water, "Gods, I am so happy!"

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