The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore, By Theowyn |
Nov 30 2007, 09:13 PM
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Queen of Scribbuliciousness![]() Posts: 2,525 Joined: 1:00am October 2, 2005 Location: Deathly Hallows is my Rochester, my Romeo, my Heathcliffe... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore
By Theowyn Abstract: Albus Dumbledore is perhaps the most enigmatic character in the world of Harry Potter. He was at once a good man devoted to the Light and a secretive manipulator who was not above using others to achieve his desired ends. This essay examines the dark side of the wizard we only came to truly know after his death. Biography: Theowyn is a business analyst and mother of three from Northern California. A long-time Harry Potter fan, she is fascinated by the complexity of Rowling's characters as well as by the profound moral and ethical questions raised by the books. When not working or driving the kids to innumerable activities, Theowyn can be found at Scribbulus or at her computer writing fan fiction which is her passion. This is Theowyn's third essay for Scribbulus. The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore can be found here. This post has been edited by AnguaTLC: Nov 30 2007, 11:51 PM -------------------- Jeeves, I am not awake. I have not had my tea and yet you bring me Fink-Nottles. |
Dec 1 2007, 06:52 PM
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Terrortours Travel Agent![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007 |
QUOTE The question is how could Dumbledore have known these things? Harry was the only surviving witness to what had occurred that night, so the most plausible explanation is that Dumbledore used Legilimency on the baby to discover what had transpired – a completely reasonable course of action. Dumbledore sent Hagrid with instructions to bring Harry to the Dursleys before he had a chance to set eyes on him. Therefore I don't think Leglimency had anything to do with how Dumbledore figured out the events of Voldemort's attack and its aftermath. The first time Dumbledore saw Harry after the attack was when Hagrid brought him to 4PD. At that time Harry was asleep - his eyes were closed - so it was impossible to perform Leglimency on him. IMO the first indication Dumbledore got that Harry contained part of Riddle's soul was when Harry was outed as a Parselmouth during the dueling club. (Harry had 3 previous encounters with Dumbleodre before that - 2 in PS and 1 in COS, but in neither of them does his train of thought indicate anything that would have suggested the involvement of Riddle's soul.) From that moment till the end of COS Dumbledore had some 5 months to figure out the significance of Harry's newfound ability. QUOTE The prophecy alone does not explain the risk Dumbledore took in allowing an eleven-year-old child to face an adult wizard possessed by Voldemort. If Dumbledore had believed the prophecy and therefore that Harry would need to kill Voldemort or die by his hand then surely setting up such an unequal confrontation between the two adversaries would have promoted the latter outcome – a reckless and unnecessary risk. Dumbledore didn’t believe in the literal interpretation of prophecies though10 and keeping Harry alive was not his primary concern. He was honing a weapon and if Harry should die, it would be no great tragedy as that fate awaited him anyway. I agree Dumbledore was honing Harry as a weapon, but he was also taking basic precautions to give him a chance at survival. That's why Dumbledore did try to return in time to when he knew there was a good chance Harry would be confronting Quirrellmort. (And why he instructed Snape to watch out for Quirrell) No point in losing a weapon before it was most useful. I agree Dumbledore had set Snape up for death over the Elder Wand business. There were plenty of ways Dumbledore could have prevented Snape's death. I can understand why he did not do so before his own death - he may have feared Snape would want the Wand and its powers for himself (as opposed to being in custody of a retired Elder Wand - which was IMO Dumbledore's original plan). He may have feared that knowing Dumbledore's other motives in planning his death by Snape would have caused Snape to perceive the killing of Dumbledore as something other than a mercy killing, and this would have damaged Snape's soul. But after his death Dumbledore's portrait was so communicative, he could have told Snape to get the wand and destroy it already, or hide it where Voldemort won't know to look for it. But then, the wand still held its power, because Draco had defeated Dumbledore before Snape got the chance to carry out their plan. If Snape (who was wizarding raised, and therefore knew the Tale of the Three Brothers) figured out the reason Dumbledore's wand was so significant he could have figured out Draco was its Master. And he could have arranged to defeat Draco without harming him (so even the Unbreakable Vow wouldn't have kicked in), thus gaining Mastery of the Wand for himself. I think Dumbledore, from his experience with the resurrection stone, did not trust Snape to be immune to the temptation of the Elder Wand. He feared of what Snape might have done had he gained mastery of the wand and knew it. Thus Dumbledore avoided saving Snape because of the possible risk to his plan to defeat Voldemort. I do hope he regreted Snape's death at least as much as Voldemort did. |
Dec 2 2007, 01:37 AM
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Exploding Snap Champion![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 1,729 Joined: 7:06pm February 28, 2005 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
QUOTE QUOTE The question is how could Dumbledore have known these things? Harry was the only surviving witness to what had occurred that night, so the most plausible explanation is that Dumbledore used Legilimency on the baby to discover what had transpired – a completely reasonable course of action. Dumbledore sent Hagrid with instructions to bring Harry to the Dursleys before he had a chance to set eyes on him. We actually don't know this. The pivotal scene in PH is ambiguous, but the fact is that when Hagrid arrives with Harry it has been 24 hours since the attack on Godric's Hollow and Hagrid cannot have been traveling all that time. While this is certainly the first time DD and Hagrid have spoken, this does not preclude DD from having seen Harry without Hagrid present. Here's what easily might have happened: Hagrid pulls Harry from the ruins of his house and takes him to some safe location belonging to the Order of the Phoenix to have his injuries (he surely had at least a few) healed. While Harry is being tended by the other Order members, Hagrid goes off on some errands for DD. In the meantime, DD arrives to see the child. It is frankly inconceivable that he wouldn't have examined Harry given the extraordinary circumstances. DD then uses Legilimency to discover that Lily gave her life to protect Harry and leaves to go set up the wards at the Dursleys. Once everything is arranged, he sends word for Hagrid to bring Harry to Little Whinging. As I said in the essay, the real key is that DD knew that Harry had been protected by his mother's sacrifice. The only way he could have known that is if he'd been privy to the events at Godrics Hollow. And having that first-hand knowledge is the only way he could have described to Snape the exact details of how LV's soul came to be lodged in Harry. QUOTE QUOTE The prophecy alone does not explain the risk Dumbledore took in allowing an eleven-year-old child to face an adult wizard possessed by Voldemort. If Dumbledore had believed the prophecy and therefore that Harry would need to kill Voldemort or die by his hand then surely setting up such an unequal confrontation between the two adversaries would have promoted the latter outcome – a reckless and unnecessary risk. Dumbledore didn’t believe in the literal interpretation of prophecies though10 and keeping Harry alive was not his primary concern. He was honing a weapon and if Harry should die, it would be no great tragedy as that fate awaited him anyway. I agree Dumbledore was honing Harry as a weapon, but he was also taking basic precautions to give him a chance at survival. That's why Dumbledore did try to return in time to when he knew there was a good chance Harry would be confronting Quirrellmort. (And why he instructed Snape to watch out for Quirrell) No point in losing a weapon before it was most useful. Oh yes, Harry was an incredibly valuable weapon and DD wouldn't have wanted to lose him. But since DD's plan wasn't dependent on Harry surviving (rather the opposite), keeping Harry safe wasn't DD's highest priority. QUOTE I agree Dumbledore had set Snape up for death over the Elder Wand business. There were plenty of ways Dumbledore could have prevented Snape's death. I can understand why he did not do so before his own death - he may have feared Snape would want the Wand and its powers for himself (as opposed to being in custody of a retired Elder Wand - which was IMO Dumbledore's original plan). He may have feared that knowing Dumbledore's other motives in planning his death by Snape would have caused Snape to perceive the killing of Dumbledore as something other than a mercy killing, and this would have damaged Snape's soul. But after his death Dumbledore's portrait was so communicative, he could have told Snape to get the wand and destroy it already, or hide it where Voldemort won't know to look for it. But then, the wand still held its power, because Draco had defeated Dumbledore before Snape got the chance to carry out their plan. If Snape (who was wizarding raised, and therefore knew the Tale of the Three Brothers) figured out the reason Dumbledore's wand was so significant he could have figured out Draco was its Master. And he could have arranged to defeat Draco without harming him (so even the Unbreakable Vow wouldn't have kicked in), thus gaining Mastery of the Wand for himself. I think Dumbledore, from his experience with the resurrection stone, did not trust Snape to be immune to the temptation of the Elder Wand. He feared of what Snape might have done had he gained mastery of the wand and knew it. Thus Dumbledore avoided saving Snape because of the possible risk to his plan to defeat Voldemort. I do hope he regreted Snape's death at least as much as Voldemort did. Oh, at least! ;) But the plain fact is that DD had no business giving that wand to Snape at all. He all but guaranteed Snape's death by doing so, and there was no need. He should have hidden or disposed of the wand long before Snape had to kill him. This post has been edited by Theowyn: Dec 2 2007, 01:42 AM -------------------- "Albus Severus, you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."
I never stopped believing in Severus Snape. ![]() |
Dec 2 2007, 03:09 AM
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Terrortours Travel Agent![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007 |
QUOTE We actually don't know this. The pivotal scene in PH is ambiguous, but the fact is that when Hagrid arrives with Harry it has been 24 hours since the attack on Godric's Hollow and Hagrid cannot have been traveling all that time. While this is certainly the first time DD and Hagrid have spoken, this does not preclude DD from having seen Harry without Hagrid present. Here's what easily might have happened: Hagrid pulls Harry from the ruins of his house and takes him to some safe location belonging to the Order of the Phoenix to have his injuries (he surely had at least a few) healed. While Harry is being tended by the other Order members, Hagrid goes off on some errands for DD. In the meantime, DD arrives to see the child. It is frankly inconceivable that he wouldn't have examined Harry given the extraordinary circumstances. DD then uses Legilimency to discover that Lily gave her life to protect Harry and leaves to go set up the wards at the Dursleys. Once everything is arranged, he sends word for Hagrid to bring Harry to Little Whinging. Hagrid claims he had orders to bring Harry to his maternal relatives by the time he was arguing with Sirius over his custody - which was immediately after their arrival at Godric's Hollow. There was no need to know the details of the events to understand that Harry could be protected by living with Petunia. What Dumbledore needed in order to arrive at this conclusion was knowing that Lily was killed despite Snape's request to Voldemort, Harry survived and Voldemort was gone (this may have been verified by Snape who may have noticed changes to his Dark Mark). Voldemort promised Snape that he would spare Lily if she acted 'sensibly'. The fact that she died suggested she did not, but instead tried to interfere. Harry survived - suggesting Voldemort was somehow prevented from killing him, despite the fact that there was nobody living around to fight Voldemort. Conclusion: Harry was protected by someone no longer living. QUOTE Oh yes, Harry was an incredibly valuable weapon and DD wouldn't have wanted to lose him. But since DD's plan wasn't dependent on Harry surviving (rather the opposite), keeping Harry safe wasn't DD's highest priority. It was high enough for Dumbledore to sit by Harry's bedside until he came to. Or not to let Harry die unnecessarily, such as when he fell off his broom due to the dementors in POA. Of course, after the end of GOF, when it became possible for Harry to survive Dumbledore does more to protect Harry from death - he duels Voldemort at the Ministry in OOTP, he immobilizes him on the tower for his protection in HBP (and creates a plan that has Harry finding and destroying the Horcruxes - which means Harry needs to survive long enough to do that). And the escape plan for Harry from 4PD risks Order members for the sake of Harry's life and Snape's cover. This post has been edited by Oryx: Dec 2 2007, 03:19 AM |
Dec 2 2007, 10:15 AM
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LC Secret Agent 07![]() ![]() Posts: 516 Joined: 11:22am March 28, 2007 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Beautifully written essay but I can't see it myself. Both Snape and Harry could have survived if Dumbledore's plan had succeeded. As it was Harry did anyway. Snape would have survived AND killed Voldemort and avenged Lily to boot, if the plan had worked. So, Dumbledore master manipulator or not, still planned for both of them to survive. And, of course, there is a good case for his having saved Harry's soul too.
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Dec 2 2007, 03:08 PM
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Terrortours Travel Agent![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007 |
rotfang, I don't think avenging Lily was a part of the plan at all. Dumbledore moves Snape away from that path by emphasizing the need to keep Harry safe rather than killing a would-be returned Voldemort in his speech to Snape after Lily's death. And the evidence that Snape bought it is when we see his hurt when he learns Harry has to die. Had he been motivated primarily by revenge he wouldn't have cared that a hated student would have to be sacrificed. But Snape did care. Because Harry's survival was his goal, and it was not to be, and Dumbledore knew it. Perhaps after this revelation all that was left to Snape was Lily's revenge, but I am of the opinion that by this time he wanted Voldemort finished for more than his personal reason. By this point he did care that other people, especially students and former students of his were being targeted by Voldemort. Which is why he adheres to Dumbleodre's plans to the letter - they have the best chance to take care of the big picture. And from Dumbledore's POV once Harry got his message from Snape the latter was expendable. Once the Horcruxes were all destroyed and as long as Voldemort was not master of the Elder Wand anyone could have killed him, in principle.
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Dec 2 2007, 07:55 PM
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LC Secret Agent 07![]() ![]() Posts: 516 Joined: 11:22am March 28, 2007 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Agreed Snape had moved on from just wanting to avenge Lily's death but he wanted justice for Lily and that meant killing V. The proof for me is his Vow with Narcissa. This meant he knew a showdown with V was inevitable amongst all the other reasons he had for taking the vow. Snape was hurt about Harry's death because keeping Harry alive was his way of keeping Lily's memory alive and of defying V. To then be told that he would have to let go of that was a painful blow. But his focus was clear according to the plan as I have laid it out he was to attack V when V was at his most vulnerable. This was not out of cowardice it was because it stood the best chance of success. But, as I explained, Rowling made sure it failed. It is true that the plan did not rely on Snape alone to kill V but neither would DD want an exceptional warrior to be wasted. He would want Snape to give killing V his best shot, literally. Good Generals never waste assets; they sacrifice them if necessary to the greater cause but they do not fritter them away for no reason. DD had no motive for wasting Snape's talents in the greater cause of killing V.
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Dec 2 2007, 09:48 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall![]() ![]() Posts: 11 Joined: 6:35am August 14, 2007 |
Rotfang can you explain this:
QUOTE Agreed Snape had moved on from just wanting to avenge Lily's death but he wanted justice for Lily and that meant killing V. The proof for me is his Vow with Narcissa. This meant he knew a showdown with V was inevitable amongst all the other reasons he had for taking the vow. I don't understand it. I think that this essay is beautifully written Theowyn. I actually think that Dumbledore was both fairly sure that Harry would survive (a high percentage chance) and intending Snape to survive. But I'm not sure that Dd was intending for LV to be killed. I have mixed feelings on this. It seems reasonable to me that Snape would be a perfect candidate to kill LV from Dd's perspective, but the very idea that he needed to be killed at all seems contrary to the actions of Dd in many cases. Such as the fact that Grindelwald was imprisoned not killed. And the fact that Dd orchestrated the protection of Harry's sacrifice also makes it unnecessary to me that LV would need to be killed. To me, being a bit of a pacifist type, it seems that if he was no longer a danger to anyone simply imprisoning him would have been sufficient. I guess I see Harry's sacrifice as ensuring that LV would never be able to hurt anyone again - as Harry says in the text - and thus making it unnecessary for anyone to have killed him at all. |
Dec 3 2007, 12:01 AM
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Exploding Snap Champion![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 1,729 Joined: 7:06pm February 28, 2005 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
So many wonderful, thoughtful posts here!
QUOTE Hagrid claims he had orders to bring Harry to his maternal relatives by the time he was arguing with Sirius over his custody - which was immediately after their arrival at Godric's Hollow. This is a fair point, though I think it says more about DD wanting to keep Harry away from Sirius. DD testified that Sirius had been the Potters SK and knew that only the SK could have betrayed them. While he didn't pass this bit onto Hagrid, he would have made it very clear that Harry was to go to his Muggle relatives, not Sirius. QUOTE There was no need to know the details of the events to understand that Harry could be protected by living with Petunia. What Dumbledore needed in order to arrive at this conclusion was knowing that Lily was killed despite Snape's request to Voldemort, Harry survived and Voldemort was gone (this may have been verified by Snape who may have noticed changes to his Dark Mark). Voldemort promised Snape that he would spare Lily if she acted 'sensibly'. The fact that she died suggested she did not, but instead tried to interfere. Harry survived - suggesting Voldemort was somehow prevented from killing him, despite the fact that there was nobody living around to fight Voldemort. Conclusion: Harry was protected by someone no longer living. Harry certainly could have been protected at the Dursleys. Even without the Blood magic, it would have been the logical place to send Harry. But DD did set up the blood wards based on Lily's sacrifice, and the chain of assumptions here is too flimsy to support that decision. Harry's life depended upon DD being right about this. He could not simply assume that Lily had been given the choice to survive and rejected it. LV could easily have ignored his promise to Snape. Lily and James might have been killed fighting. There were far too many variables at play for DD to make his decisions from guesswork alone. He had to be sure.Making sure, however, doesn't have to have involved Legilimency on Harry; this just happens to be the handiest magic we know of that would do the trick. But DD could have used all sorts of arcane means to achieve this same result. Maybe he had some magic device that let him look into the Potters' home. Maybe he cast some spell over the ruins of the house that replayed the last moments of the occupants before they died. We can imagine any clever device we like that would most successfully fit all the facts and a strong case can be made that DD had something allowing him to keep tabs on the Potters. Hagrid was dispatched to Godrics Hollow before the dust had even settled. Whatever means DD used, it is clear that on the night James and Lily died, he knew that LV wasn't gone and he also knew that Lily had died in a very specific way to save her son. And his knowledge of the way in which Harry became a Horcrux was precise as well. He didn't simply deduce that Harry was a Horcrux from the boy's ability to speak Parseltongue. He was able to describe HOW the AK spell rebounded, HOW a piece of LV's soul split apart and lodged itself in Harry as the house collapsed around him. One way or another, DD KNEW that Harry was a Horcrux based on the events of that night. QUOTE It [Harry's life] was high enough for Dumbledore to sit by Harry's bedside until he came to... Of course it was! I don't mean to imply that DD didn't care about Harry. He loved Harry! But keeping him alive wasn't DD's ultimate goal. Defeating LV was. I do believe that both Harry and Snape could have survived and I believe that this is what DD wanted. But DD was too secretive by half and tended to unintentionally sabotage his own plans by habitually witholding vital information from the people who desperately needed to know it. In this case, his reticence cost Snape his life and could easily have cost them the war had Snape not managed to get the crucial information to Harry. Rotfang, I'm afraid I must echo ElderBrain's confusion on this point: QUOTE Agreed Snape had moved on from just wanting to avenge Lily's death but he wanted justice for Lily and that meant killing V. The proof for me is his Vow with Narcissa. This meant he knew a showdown with V was inevitable amongst all the other reasons he had for taking the vow. I don't see how the UV implied a showdown with LV and in fact, none occurred as a result of the vow. I saw the vow as an indication of Snape's concern for Draco and/or Narcissa and his desire to protect Narcissa's only son from the evil wizard as atonement for having failed to protect Lily's son. ElderBrain, good point about LV not necessarily having to die. Imprisoning him for life would have also obviated the need for Harry to die. Alas, for some reason, DD didn't consider this an option. This post has been edited by Theowyn: Dec 3 2007, 12:05 AM -------------------- "Albus Severus, you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."
I never stopped believing in Severus Snape. ![]() |
Dec 3 2007, 01:14 AM
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Terrortours Travel Agent![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007 |
Regarding the Unbreakable Vow, I see it as expression of concern for Draco's life, but also a way for Snape to force himself into commiting an act he was reluctant to do. He hated the idea of having to kill Dumbledore so he made his life depend on it to give himself the extra push. In the end he did perform Draco's task for him as well as died protecting Draco's life, because in his death he prevented Voldemort from finding out that Draco was the Wand's master.
To ElderBrain: If the goal was not to kill Voldemort then what was the importance of destroying the Horcruxes to make him mortal? Voldemort had already broken his followers out of Azkaban at least twice. What kind of prison would have been capable of containing him? To Theowyn: What do you think could have been a plan of Dumbledore's that would have allowed Snape's survival? When did he abandon it? This post has been edited by Oryx: Dec 3 2007, 01:22 AM |




Nov 30 2007, 09:13 PM












