Life, Memory, Self And Soul |
 May 20 2006, 05:48 PM
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever  Posts: 9,333 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK   |
I am interested in working out what life, memory self and soul mean in the Harry Potter world, how they fiit together, how they relate to possessing someone, and how Diary Tom was very nearly able to exist on his own. There are a lot of references in the books to these issues, and I think if we could try to pull them all together and discuss them, we might help to answer some of the questions such as how the diary worked, how someone is possessed and what the link between Voldemort and Harry really is. I don't have time to gather togotehr the quotes at teh moment but I think the relevant points of the books to this are Voldemort sharing Quirrell's body at the end of Book 1, Riddle's description of the diary in Book 2, Lupin describing the dementor's kiss in Book 3, the description of Occlumency and description of Harry's possession in book 5, and the Horcruxes chapter of book 6.
This thread is inspired by the various discussions that have been happening in the Dumbledore doesn't Tell Harry to Kill Voldemort thread. This post has been edited by roonwit: May 20 2006, 05:54 PM --------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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May 20 2006, 06:18 PM
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#2
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Perusing the Magical Menagerie  Posts: 83 Joined: 6:55am April 18, 2006 Location: (hereford, UK)flying over ur house coz i'm a bored dragon |
QUOTE(skulblaka @ May 20 2006, 10:45 PM) [snapback]827750[/snapback] QUOTE(roonwit @ May 20 2006, 10:15 PM) [snapback]827705[/snapback] QUOTE(MysteriaSleuthbeder @ May 20 2006, 08:41 PM) [snapback]827439[/snapback] QUOTE(skulblaka @ May 19 2006, 05:55 PM) [snapback]826477[/snapback] uhhhh the conscience/ mind is part of someones soul and dumbledore does say soul in the book I think we all tend to think of soul the way you do, but JKR has given us a different version of that. Roonwit, some pages back during the "nature of soul" discussion, provided us with a quote from Dumbledore that says that whatever is Voldemort's consciousness and mind, his "self" in other words, is what survived and is what is in his regenerated body. All of it, I believe he says. So, whatever soul bit in a horcux, is not "self." Not in Potterverse, at any rate. Though I agree with you as far as the real world goes.the possesion of someone requires the use of the soul as far as i can dicern from what dumbledore says so yes voldomort is using his soul to control harry here is the last say on the subject by me and roonwit -------------------- "logic overcomes a lack of wisdom that comes with age"~ oromis from the book eldest
life has more meaning than anyone person can describe but death can be described by one man with one word "loneliness" peter buckley (skulblaka)  |
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May 21 2006, 01:11 AM
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#3
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Gringotts Goblin Translator Posts: 1,232 Joined: 3:23pm December 14, 2005 Location: NOVA (swiftly becoming a black hole) |
QUOTE(roonwit @ May 20 2006, 05:48 PM) [snapback]827751[/snapback] I am interested in working out what life, memory self and soul mean in the Harry Potter world, how they fiit together, how they relate to possessing someone, and how Diary Tom was very nearly able to exist on his own. There are a lot of references in the books to these issues, and I think if we could try to pull them all together and discuss them, we might help to answer some of the questions such as how the diary worked, how someone is possessed and what the link between Voldemort and Harry really is.... This thread is inspired by the various discussions that have been happening in the Dumbledore doesn't Tell Harry to Kill Voldemort thread. I think pulling out these issues and grouping them makes sense, because in the other thread the discussion tends to always overlap moral issues, which is appropriate there but may too heavily inform the discussion. (If anyone wants to look, and it's really a lot of very long posts so you may not, the discussion starts, I think, really, with Hedwigger's post #47 and goes on for about 50 posts.) The thing is, as occurred to me in the other discussion, we may be putting a lot more thought into this than JKR ever did and find certain things just can't be reconciled with others. But - in hope that I am mistaken... I thought I'd just put some quotes in here from HBP, Chapter 23 "Horcruxes" to use an discussion points or whatever, these are from US version pages 500-503: Dumbledore when discussing the Diarycrux refers twice to "mere" memory. So, since you mentioned memory, this might be a clue - he also said that Harry described "a phenomenon I had never witnessed" ... "mere memory starting to act and think for itself..." DD attributes this, of course, to the diary containing more than memory but something he characterizes as "much more sinister" that being "a fragment of soul..." (Interesting use of the word "sinister.") As to possession - in this same section, Dumbldore rermarks that Voldemort really wanted the Diary read because he "wanted that piece of soul to inhabit or possess somebody else, so that Slytherin's monster would be unleashed again." I thought making the distinction between inhabit and possess might be significant. On pg 503, when DD talk about his suspicion that LV had multiple horcruxes, he said the theory seemed to fit because "Lord Voldemort has seemed to grow less human with the passing years." So, losing bits of soul may be theorized to make one less human, so humaness as a trait may possibly be a function of the soul. It also occurs to me that you might want to decide now if there would be any significant difference between a Wizard's soul and a Muggle's. If Magicism is genetic, and JKR seems to have said it is, then perhaps we can say the soul is the same, but maybe you want to only define these things in terms of canon without bringing in any outside cultural resources. (Just looking for parameters, maybe you don't want any--) But this, I thought, was the most telling of DD comments about soul, this was from one of your posts: "The seventh part of his soul, however damaged, resides inside his regenerated body. That was the part of him that lived a spectral existence for so many years during his exile; without that, he has no self at all." So, here's the question about parameters. If you are going to posit that "soul-bits" (you might want to make up a better word, I don't know) do have memory or personality or ego, I think it would go beyond what DD clearly stated, (and he does state so few things clearly!) that he has no self at all. No "self" in the soul-bits. So, I guess I am wondering - are we talking about Potterverse reality only, or are we talking philosophically about what we all believe about life, memory, soul, and self? IOW, do we go beyond canon, or shall we just find every reference we can and see if they tell us anything once we put them together? I have a feeling that the first thing that might be necessary is just defining what we mean by "self." -------------------- |
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May 21 2006, 08:00 AM
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#4
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever Posts: 9,333 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(MysteriaSleuthbeder @ May 21 2006, 07:11 AM) [snapback]828170[/snapback] Dumbledore when discussing the Diarycrux refers twice to "mere" memory. So, since you mentioned memory, this might be a clue - he also said that Harry described "a phenomenon I had never witnessed" ... "mere memory starting to act and think for itself..." DD attributes this, of course, to the diary containing more than memory but something he characterizes as "much more sinister" that being "a fragment of soul..." (Interesting use of the word "sinister.") This isn't quite correct. It is the piece of soul that is more sinister than mere memory. The key bit of the quote is QUOTE A mere memory, sapping the life out of the girl into whose hands it had fallen? No, something more sinister had lived inside that book ... a fragment of soul. (HBP ch 20. p.468(UK)) So it is the soul that is the key part of the diary that allowed it to act and think for itself. It is also interesting that Dumbledore says the soul lived in the diary.QUOTE(MysteriaSleuthbeder @ May 21 2006, 07:11 AM) [snapback]828170[/snapback] As to possession - in this same section, Dumbldore rermarks that Voldemort really wanted the Diary read because he "wanted that piece of soul to inhabit or possess somebody else, so that Slytherin's monster would be unleashed again." I thought making the distinction between inhabit and possess might be significant. This might however hust be Dumbledore trying to convey the same idea in two slightly different words to make sure Harry understands fully. But this does clearly show that to possess someone, you need a bit of soul in them.QUOTE(MysteriaSleuthbeder @ May 21 2006, 07:11 AM) [snapback]828170[/snapback] It also occurs to me that you might want to decide now if there would be any significant difference between a Wizard's soul and a Muggle's. I am not sure this is worth considering, because I doubt we will get an evidence on it from Jo, so we would only be guessing, thus I don't think we would get anything useful from it.QUOTE(MysteriaSleuthbeder @ May 21 2006, 07:11 AM) [snapback]828170[/snapback] But this, I thought, was the most telling of DD comments about soul, this was from one of your posts: I think we conclude from this that a soul piece is a necessary part of "self". It is interesting that Dumbledore says "The seventh part of his soul, however damaged, resides inside his regenerated body. That was the part of him that lived a spectral existence for so many years during his exile; without that, he has no self at all." So, here's the question about parameters. If you are going to posit that "soul-bits" (you might want to make up a better word, I don't know) do have memory or personality or ego, I think it would go beyond what DD clearly stated, (and he does state so few things clearly!) that he has no self at all. No "self" in the soul-bits. QUOTE That was the part of him that lived a spectral existence which suggests that that soul piece might be the only part of what made up Vapourmort.QUOTE(MysteriaSleuthbeder @ May 21 2006, 07:11 AM) [snapback]828170[/snapback] So, I guess I am wondering - are we talking about Potterverse reality only, or are we talking philosophically about what we all believe about life, memory, soul, and self? IOW, do we go beyond canon, or shall we just find every reference we can and see if they tell us anything once we put them together? I think we should concentrate on canon, (I will start gathering some book extracts later), but it might help to view the terms in a broader context.
I have a feeling that the first thing that might be necessary is just defining what we mean by "self." This post has been edited by roonwit: May 21 2006, 08:02 AM -------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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May 21 2006, 10:21 AM
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#5
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever Posts: 9,333 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
Book two quotes
QUOTE 'Are you a ghost?' Harry said uncertainly. (CoS ch 17 p227(UK)) One of several references by Diary Tom to the diary containing a memory of Tom Riddle, though he may not be telling the whole truth.'A memory,' said Riddle quietly. 'Preserved in a diary for fifty years.' QUOTE 'The diary', said Riddle. 'My diary. Little Ginny's been writing in it for months and months, telling me all her pitiful worries and woes: (CoS ch 17 p228(UK)) This contains reference to "soul" and an interesting description of "poured out her soul" that might get us somewhere,... I've always been able to charm the people I needed. So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted. I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her... QUOTE I knew it wouldn't be safe to open the Chamber again while I was still at school. (CoS ch 17 p230(UK)) Note the use of "self".... I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages, ... QUOTE ... But there isn't much life left in her [Ginny]: she put too much into the diary, into me. Enough to let me leave its pages at last. ... (CoS ch 17 p231(UK)) a clear reference to the diary taking "life" from Ginny.QUOTE 'You can speak Parseltongue, Harry.' said Dumbledore calmly, 'because Lord Voldemort - who is the last remaining ancestor [corrected to descendant in later editions] of Salazar Slytherin - can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure ...' (CoS ch 18 p245(UK)) Some have suggested that this power is linked to a soul piece in Harry, but Dumbledore doesn't seem too bothered about it. It is interesting to note that the diary had to feed on Ginny to become powerful, so that soul piece at least had little of its own power to start with.
'Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?' Harry said, thunderstuck. 'It certainly seems so.' This post has been edited by roonwit: May 21 2006, 10:25 AM -------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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May 21 2006, 10:48 PM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 242 Joined: 8:21pm May 10, 2006 Location: Sitting under my cat |
Just wanted to let you know, there's a good essay by Kidas (Body Mind and Spirit in Harry's Universe) which does a nice job of breaking down the definitions JKR seems to use for Body Mind & Spirit (or Soul). Not that you have to agree with Kidas' conclusions, but it might provide a nice starting point for consistent terminology in this discussion.
Coach's essay about Consequences, Redemption and the Point of No Return has sparked an interesting discussion about the role of the soul and soul damage in the HP Universe. Lots of interesting ideas have come up. I'm not trying to sidetrack you or anything - just pointing out resources you may want to take advantage of. I appologize for the lack of links, but I don't know how to add them to my posts (yet). Essays are accessible from the main news page. The discussions for essays are in the Scribbulus forum. This post has been edited by Justin Passing: May 21 2006, 10:50 PM |
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Jun 19 2007, 08:19 PM
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 245 Joined: 8:04pm January 4, 2007 |
Roonwit, I think you are on to an interesting discussion. I think that in the instance of the Diary, there were two elements to consider: the memory and the Horcrux. I don't think that the memory of 16-year old Tom Riddle knows about the diary being a Horcrux. It seems that both have different missions. Tom's memory tends to recreate an event that took place 50 years ago: the opening of the Chamber. It is as though it was "stuck" on repeating history. The Horcrux part, however, used BOTH Ginny and Tom's memory to do the dirty work. I think possession involves magic, which can be attributed to the "soul" part of the diary ( part of LV's soul). Notice that as Ginny begins to die, Tom regains some of his magic- and he uses Harry's wand. So, maybe at that point the "soul" part begins to take over. But, could there be 2 LVs living at different times in history? Did LV intend for his Horcruxes to reunite in the future, each containing more power than before? Is that how he intended to become immortal? And, once the parts of soul were reunited- did he intend to kill again and repeat the process of making more Horcruxes thereby living forever and ever?
This post has been edited by Pyxis: Jun 19 2007, 08:29 PM |
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Jun 20 2007, 07:59 PM
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Shopping the sales rack at Madam Malkins Posts: 2,518 Joined: 2:33pm September 16, 2005 Location: I'm somewhere inside all of you |
I relate the memory portion of the diary to how portraits react; I don't think that the portrait can learn anything or make decisions for itself. However, the memory tied to a piece of soul becomes almost human.
-------------------- "Harry now saw red hair flying like flames in front of him: Ginny was locked in combat ..."
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