Lily As A Horcrux, seriously...this will boggle your mind |
 Aug 8 2006, 06:22 PM
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Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper  Posts: 59 Joined: 1:43am August 2, 2006 Location: Pumping iron with Kingsley Shacklebolt  |
disclaimer: I have not reread the HP books since I finished HBP shortly after it was released. Ergo, I may have forgotten information crucial to supporting, or, more likely, disproving my theory. I also acknowledge that this theory may have been already discussed in a previous thread. If I am unknowingly mirroring someone else's cutting edge, I apologize.
Whilst reviewing the series recently, I was reminded that Harry was unable to see thestrels until after Cedric's death. It struck me that, accepting Lily-died-to-save-Harry-and-bestow-the-blood-protection chain of events, Harry most likely would have seen Lily made victim to He-Who-Must-Be-Washed-In-Cold-Water With-Like-Colors' killing curse. Q: Why didn't Harry see his mother die? Either she was blocked form Harry's view...or she wasn't really killed.  I believe Voldemort used the murder of James Potter to beget Lily as a Horcrux to commemorate the destruction of his prophesied bane. At first, I could't reconcile this theory with the protective magic of Lily's sacrifice. I now believe it is possible that Harry was protected by Lily's belief that she was to be killed, and her decision to put her self in the way of He-Who-Can-Save-You-15%-Or-More-On-Car-Insurance's curse. Perhaps the 'old magic' described by DD stems from the willingness and belief that one if sacrificing one's self for another, rather than the death itself. One other interesting detail...There is repetitive mention throughout the series of how Harry has his mother's eyes. I think Voldemort chose to make Lily the trophy so he could relive his trumph at will- each time he looked in Lily's eyes. Of course there are many elements that seem to disprove this...harry seeing his mother in the Priori Incantato for example...I'm still trying to work around some of them...  I would love any feedback that you wise folks could impart. Be gentle though, because I am a newby and I spent a lot of time writing this Behemoth of a post! I hope this has been at the very least thought-provoking. 
This post has been edited by AurorPops: Aug 8 2006, 06:52 PM -------------------- If Harrison Ford has taught us anything, it's that we should age with dignity, not earrings.
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Aug 8 2006, 09:24 PM
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#2
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Shopping for a New Firebolt Posts: 844 Joined: 9:18pm July 24, 2005 |
Lily is dead, JKR said as much. She also says Harry did not see her die because he was unable to see. I would love to give you the quote, but I'm sure many others can give this exact quote. I know this because the question of Harry not seeing the thestrals previously is specifically answered by JKR and she explains why Lily's death does not prompt Harry to see the thestrals, and why Quirell's death did not, and why he did not see them on the way back to the hogwarts express after Cedric died (Harry did not have enough time to accept the death).
I know many want to think that somehow Harry gets to meet James or Lily, and we know that Harry desired this above all else (mirror of erised), but this is part of shaping the character, and the reality of life. |
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Aug 8 2006, 09:51 PM
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Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 59 Joined: 1:43am August 2, 2006 Location: Pumping iron with Kingsley Shacklebolt |
hmm. I was not aware of that, as I am not an avid follower of interviews, press releases, or anything of the sort. (to be honest, i think these are all reasons JKR slapped on to cover her bases)
But i guees that settles it. Did JKR's confirmation of Lily's death include that she was killed by Voldemort on the night of Voldemort's failure? -------------------- If Harrison Ford has taught us anything, it's that we should age with dignity, not earrings.
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Aug 8 2006, 10:29 PM
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Technology Expert! Posts: 6,571 Joined: 9:30pm July 1, 2005  |
JK Rowling did confirmed that Lily was dead, you can find it on her site here, also there is this quote from JK Rowling:
QUOTE I would be the first to say that I have made mistakes in the books, but this was not a mistake. I really thought this one through. Harry did not see his parents die. He was one year old and in a cot at the time. Although you never see that scene, I wrote it and then cut it. He didn’t see it; he was too young to appreciate it. from that link hereAlso, yes the idea that Lord Voldemort would have wanted to make an horcrux with Lily's body, bu using Harry's death, seems appealing, but we need to also remember what Dunbledore told us, that using something that is alive to create an horcrux wouldn't be very suitable. He had told us that when speaking about hus suspicion on Nagini. So Lily beign alive and made of flesh and bones, i would be susprise that back then Lord Voldemort would have used a person to carry one of his horcrux. I mean a person is a lot less "durable" than an object, a body grow older can be sick or can die, which make a "body horcrux" a lot easier to be destroyed and i don't think Lord Voldemort would ave wanted that. This post has been edited by marielle: Aug 9 2006, 06:54 AM --------------------  |
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Aug 9 2006, 12:20 AM
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Dumbledore's Personal House Elf  Posts: 573 Joined: 3:20pm December 27, 2005 Location: Loyally performing House Elf duties at Hogwarts  |
It explains why Harry Can't see the thestrals before OotP below
QUOTE Why could Harry see the Thestrals 'Order of the Phoenix'? Shouldn't he have been able to see them much earlier, because he saw his parents/Quirrell/Cedric die? I've been asked this a lot. Harry didn't see his parents die. He was in his cot at the time (he was just over a year old) and, as I say in 'Philosopher's Stone', all he saw was a flash of green light. He didn't see Quirrell's death, either. Harry had passed out before Quirrell died and was only told about it by Dumbledore in the last chapter. He did, however, witness the murder of Cedric, and it is this that makes him able to see the Thestrals at last. Why couldn't he see the Thestrals on his trip back to the train station? Well, I didn't want to start a new mystery, which would not be resolved for a long time, at the very end of the fourth book. I decided, therefore, that until Harry is over the first shock, and really feels what death means (ie, when he fully appreciates that Cedric is gone forever and that he can never come back, which takes time, whatever age you are) he would not be able to see the Thestrals. After two months away from school during which he has dwelled endlessly on his memories of the murder and had nightmares about it, the Thestrals have taken shape and form and he can see them quite clearly. -------------------- [center]A good friend will bail you out of jail but a true friend will be sitting there with you saying "We screwed up but we had fun!' - In memory of James and Sirius  |
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Aug 11 2006, 01:08 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 3 Joined: 11:46am August 11, 2006 |
Hey y'all--
In HBP, Dumbledore tells us that animals can be Horcruxes, but he never says anything about people being Horcruxes. And while we don't know exactly what happened right after Voldemort killed James and Lilly, we're kind of told that he just vanished. Plus we know that James and Lilly have graves, so we can assume their bodies were buried, which makes it unlikely that Voldemort has Lilly's body in his living room. Dumbledore tells us that it's inadvisable to use animals because "to confide a part of your soul to comething that can think and move for itself is a very risky business" (p. 506 of HBP). But Dumbledore also comments on Voldemort's control over Nagini the snake, which implies that if you do make a Horcrux out of a person, you'd have control of it. In which case, had Lilly become a Horcrux as a result of murdering James, Voldemort would have been able to make her move out of that way so that he could kill Harry without any problems. You could argue that maybe her love for Harry could have overcome that control, but either way, Lilly's dead, and so is any Horcrux that he might have put in her. But it's not a bad theory that he might attempt it, especially if he could therefore control her and gain an in with the Aurors. Following that line of logic, I know people have theorized that Harry is a Horcrux and must therefore kill himself in order to kill Voldemort. To that I have to say, if Harry were a Horcrux, wouldn't Voldemort have as much control over him as he does over Nagini and over Ginny in Chamber of Secrets? And clearly he doesn't. I like Dumbledore's theory that some of Voldemort's powers were somehow transferred to Harry when he tried to kill him. Furthermore -- and I consider this my ace in the hole -- Dumbledore would never allow himself to be killed without making Harry aware of this possibility. Dumbledore loves Harry, and he would never leave him to face something like that without at least suggesting the possibility. And Dumbledore makes no mention of using other humans as a Horcrux, let alone the possibility that Harry is one. And Dumbledore mentions that when he found the ring, he was looking for traces of "magical concealment," which indicates that he probably would have noticed if Harry were a Horcrux and Voldemort was trying to magically conceal it. And I refuse to believe that Ms. Rowling would simply let Dumbledore not know it if Harry were a Horcrux. Furthermore, in Order of the Phoenix, when Voldemort tries to possess Harry's body, he can't -- it's too painful (HBP, P. 511). So how could Voldemort make a Horcrux out of Harry given that information? In Chapter 2 of HBP, Snape mentions Voldemort using Harry's blood to regenerate and become invincible, but I think that has more to do with Dark Magic and using Harry's blood to acquire the power that Harry has but he doesn't have that the prophecy speaks of. I still have a bad feeling Harry isn't going to survive the 7th book, but I don't think it's because he's a Horcrux. |
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Aug 16 2006, 07:29 PM
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Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 61 Joined: 6:22am February 6, 2006 Location: Australia |
She was Murdered though..... You cannot exactly place a Horcrux on a Body...[font=Comic Sans Ms]
-------------------- "Your a prefect! Oh Ronnie thats everyone in the family!" said Mrs Weasly.
"What are Fred and I, next door neighbours?!" (\__/) (='.'=) Copy and paste bunny into your(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination |
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Aug 17 2006, 01:44 AM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 17 Joined: 5:31pm July 19, 2006 |
QUOTE(CrAzY_Bunette @ Aug 16 2006, 07:29 PM) [snapback]918775[/snapback] She was Murdered though..... You cannot exactly place a Horcrux on a Body...[font=Comic Sans Ms] Was she murdered, I thought she essentially commited suicide as a part of her spell in order to give harry enough protection to survive? -------------------- [url=http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a200/TheRealDJ/BakiImage.jpg] target="_blank"></a> A Gentleman is always deep in thought. |
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Aug 18 2006, 09:15 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 2 Joined: 8:22pm August 18, 2006 |
I think that's a brilliant idea, although I am inclined to disagree with it. I think MuggleSarah717 is right when she says "Dumbledore would never allow himself to be killed without making Harry aware of this possibility." Also, it was LV's intent to kill Harry, and he must have had the 7 Horcrux's in place by the time he went after Harry to fulfill the prophecy.
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Aug 19 2006, 06:01 AM
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Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic  Posts: 9,274 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
As has already been said Lily is dead, and it is also clear that, unless Dumbledore is wrong, Voldemort intended to use Harry's death to make his final (6th) horcrux. It is however possible that Voldemort was trying to keep Lily alive because she was descended from Godric Gryffindor and Voldemort wanted to make her into his Gryffindor horcrux, or that Lily had some key knowledge or skills that Voldemort would have required to obtain a Gryffindor relic to be made into a horcrux.
--------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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