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Lily Potter's Underage Use Of Magic, why wasn't she expelled from Hogwarts?
carolina_cannonb...
post Aug 11 2006, 08:31 AM
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Again, forgive me if this in the wrong place... I have a knack for starting threads in precarious places.

I am re-reading the series and I came across something that puzzled me. In PS/SS chapter 4 (?) "Keeper of the Keys" when Harry first meets Hagrid on the island and first learns he is a wizard we hear Petunia say about Harry's mother...

Explaining what a freak Lily was and that she would come home on vacation from "that school" and turn tea cups into rats and oh, how proud her parents were there was a witch in the family.

So Lily was performing under age magic. This means, most importantly, that whole permise that Uncle Vernon didn't know about Harry not being able to use magic @ Privet drive is false because Petunia would have known that Harry couldn't do magic away from school... unless Lily never got in trouble for doing underage magic @ her home away from school.

There is an instance in one of the later books, I forget which, that Arthur or maybe DD tells Harry that the MOM can't tell who does the magic in the home, but can only tell that magic has been done. Which is why Harry got in trouble for Dobby's floating cake magic... the MOM knew magic was performed in that house & he was the only wizard @ Privet drive... so it must have been Harry doing magic according to their logic.

Does that mean that there were other wizards in the Evans household when Lily & Petunia were children? We are led to believe that Lily's parents are muggles and do no magic. Some one in that house must have been a witch/wizard if Lily was getting away with underage magic...

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S.u.n.n.y
post Aug 11 2006, 09:05 AM
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That's exactly what also struck me whilst re-reading PS a couple of days ago ... it's really strange actually. Because she certainly didn't have a special permission to turn tea cups into rats. I was wondering if Petunia was maybe not telling the truth but inventing something. But that wouldn't make sense ... ponder.gif

I doubt that anybody apart from Lily could do magic in the Evans family. Her parents were Muggles just like her sister and I doubt she had some wizard grandfather or witch grandmother because Petunia surely would have mentioned their "abnormality" too.

That could be a mistake J.K.R. made, I'll try and read a couple of interviews on PS and maybe I'll find something out ...


This post has been edited by S.u.n.n.y: Aug 11 2006, 09:07 AM


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post Aug 11 2006, 09:10 AM
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Has there ever been a mention of when the restriction on underage magic started? That would be one explination, if it was after Lily's time.



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post Aug 11 2006, 09:15 AM
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From the HP Lexicon

QUOTE
Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery
1875
(CS2, CS5, PA3, OP2, OP8)

violation under paragraph C knowingly, deliberately, in full awareness of illegality, to do magic in a Muggle-inhabited area and in the presence of a Muggle (OP8)

clause 7 magic may be used before Muggles in exceptional circumstances, which include situations that include the life of the wizard or witch himself, or witches, wizards, or Muggles present (OP8)


Hope this helps a little smile.gif


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carolina_cannonb...
post Aug 11 2006, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE(sweetcheeky @ Aug 11 2006, 10:15 AM) [snapback]910547[/snapback]

From the HP Lexicon

QUOTE
Decree for the Reasonable Restriction of Underage Sorcery
1875
(CS2, CS5, PA3, OP2, OP8)

violation under paragraph C knowingly, deliberately, in full awareness of illegality, to do magic in a Muggle-inhabited area and in the presence of a Muggle (OP8)

clause 7 magic may be used before Muggles in exceptional circumstances, which include situations that include the life of the wizard or witch himself, or witches, wizards, or Muggles present (OP8)


Hope this helps a little smile.gif


So it was ok for Lily to do magic in her home away from school because her whole family was aware of her being a witch. In the floating cake incident the people being entertained by the Dursley's did not know Harry was a wizard or that magic existed. [According to clause 7]

Interesting... then why did Harry & Ron have to cut carrots by hand @ the Burrow (HBP) becuase they were still underage, while Fred & George laughed at them? Certainly if any household was used to magic it was the Weasley's.


This post has been edited by carolina_cannonball: Aug 11 2006, 09:45 AM


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loufoca
post Aug 11 2006, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE(carolina_cannonball @ Aug 11 2006, 09:43 AM) [snapback]910573[/snapback]


So it was ok for Lily to do magic in her home away from school because her whole family was aware of her being a witch.



I think that all underage witch and wizards are forbidden to do magic outside hogwards, even if their family knows they are, even if their family is a wizard family, even if... no exceptions, and that's why it's weird
but I think maybe petunia exagerated, maybe lily just showed her books and her potions ingredients or something like that (or maybe she threatened petunia of changing a cup into a rat)
don't know conf.gif
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carolina_cannonb...
post Aug 11 2006, 10:23 AM
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QUOTE(loufoca @ Aug 11 2006, 10:47 AM) [snapback]910578[/snapback]

QUOTE(carolina_cannonball @ Aug 11 2006, 09:43 AM) [snapback]910573[/snapback]


So it was ok for Lily to do magic in her home away from school because her whole family was aware of her being a witch.



but I think maybe petunia exagerated, maybe lily just showed her books and her potions ingredients or something like that (or maybe she threatened petunia of changing a cup into a rat)
don't know conf.gif


I always thought it was the truth becuase it was a pretty accurate description of a typical transfiguration assignment. I remember Ron only being able to turn his cup into a furry cup with a rat tail & Hermione of course doing it perfectly. I don't think Petunia was exaggerating in this instance. Which still makes me wonder why they were so scared of Harry doing magic while he was home. ponder.gif


This post has been edited by carolina_cannonball: Aug 11 2006, 10:24 AM


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post Aug 11 2006, 10:44 AM
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I think that this is better suited in A History of Magic.
May the discussion continue there.

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post Aug 11 2006, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Aug 11 2006, 11:44 AM) [snapback]910638[/snapback]

I think that this is better suited in A History of Magic.
May the discussion continue there.

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post Aug 11 2006, 11:00 AM
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Jo was actually asked this somewhere (sorry I looked and couldn't find it) but she said that Petunia was exaggerating. Though there probably is some truth there in my opinion. Would the ministry be able to detect the use of magical items? Like if Harry used the cloak at Privet Drive? Maybe Lily gave Petunia tea in one of those nose-biting teacups?


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post Aug 11 2006, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE(nympheart @ Aug 11 2006, 12:00 PM) [snapback]910666[/snapback]

Maybe Lily gave Petunia tea in one of those nose-biting teacups?


biggrin.gif

Too bad her exaggeration wasn't noted in the book , but after the fact by the author. I like the thought of prissy Petunia drinking tea out of a rat's **s. thumbup.gif



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confunded
post Aug 12 2006, 09:46 AM
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It could have been one of those "Oopsie" uncontrolled under-age magical moments where Lily is being teased by her sister and *poof*. Petunia suddenly having a rat where her tea cup was would surely turn her against anything magical.

Or under pressure from her sister Lily gives a little demonstration. Shortly thereafter Lily recieves a nasty owl post from the MoM threatening expulsion if she ever does that again. Lily decides that there is no reason to share the letter's contents with her sister.
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post Aug 12 2006, 10:13 AM
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QUOTE(nympheart @ Aug 11 2006, 05:00 PM) [snapback]910666[/snapback]

Jo was actually asked this somewhere (sorry I looked and couldn't find it) but she said that Petunia was exaggerating. Though there probably is some truth there in my opinion.


The quote is in Jo's FAQ, here:

QUOTE
In "Philosopher's Stone" Aunt Petunia says that Lily came back from Hogwarts with frog spawn in her pockets and turned teacups into rats. If this is true, why wasn't Lily expelled?

Aunt Petunia is exaggerating a little; you have to allow for her state of mind when she started shrieking these things. However, just like her son, Lily was not averse to testing the limits of the Statute of Secrecy, so you can safely assume she will have had a few warning letters – nothing too serious, though.


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post Aug 12 2006, 01:26 PM
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It was probably just a mistake in the books don't you think? Petunia also said that Lily came home with her pockets full of frog spawn and well... uh, I can't imagine. Maybe that just meant she had gotten a pet toad. And maybe Lily didn't do magic at home until she was 17 before she went back to school, and that's what Petunia remembers.


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post Aug 14 2006, 01:03 AM
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To be honest, I suspect JK just didn't have all the canon down at that point. So while she imagined it being a 7 book series, I think she was just hoping for the first book to be picked up, not necessarily keeping track of rules she'd need in later books for it to be realistic.


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post Aug 14 2006, 03:09 PM
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Doing magic in front of those who already know you can do magic is much less serious than levitating a pudding in front of virtual strangers, blowing up an aunt who is ignorant of magic, or doing obvious magic in a public muggle area. Thus Harry's supposed breaches would be taken more seriously than Lily showing off a few spells to her sister. Thus it is consistent that Lily would be treated more lightly.

This post has been edited by roonwit: Aug 14 2006, 03:11 PM


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post Aug 14 2006, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE(roonwit @ Aug 14 2006, 03:09 PM) [snapback]915250[/snapback]

Doing magic in front of those who already know you can do magic is much less serious than levitating a pudding in front of virtual strangers, blowing up an aunt who is ignorant of magic, or doing obvious magic in a public muggle area. Thus Harry's supposed breaches would be taken more seriously than Lily showing off a few spells to her sister. Thus it is consistent that Lily would be treated more lightly.

Actually no, doing magic at all is a very serious offense. Which is why neither Ron nor Hermione do magic during the holidays. What if Lily was abusing her abilities, like turning Petunia's favorite tea set into mice just to annoy her. Who would be the wiser? Its just in wizarding families that there might be leniency since the ministry can't be certain


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post Aug 14 2006, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE(TheRealDJ @ Aug 14 2006, 11:52 PM) [snapback]915492[/snapback]
Actually no, doing magic at all is a very serious offense.
We aren't told that. It is against the rules, but that doesn't mean that breaking that rule is necessarily a serious offense. Harry's supposed breaches are seen as serious however because they also risk exposing the world of wizards to muggles, and that is treated seriously. Lily's breaches were presumably never that serious, possibly showing off in front of Petunia, but not much more.


This post has been edited by roonwit: Aug 14 2006, 06:09 PM


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post Aug 14 2006, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE(roonwit @ Aug 14 2006, 06:08 PM) [snapback]915516[/snapback]

QUOTE(TheRealDJ @ Aug 14 2006, 11:52 PM) [snapback]915492[/snapback]
Actually no, doing magic at all is a very serious offense.
We aren't told that. It is against the rules, but that doesn't mean that breaking that rule is necessarily a serious offense. Harry's supposed breaches are seen as serious however because they also risk exposing the world of wizards to muggles, and that is treated seriously. Lily's breaches were presumably never that serious, possibly showing off in front of Petunia, but not much more.

Any sort of magic can be abused, such as say lifting something up above someone's head. The spell itself might be inocuous, but lets say she was keeping something out of Petunia's hands, or worse, lifted up Petunia's belt with her in it, it could indeed be a very serious offense, and the Ministry would not know the effects of what the spell she cast, only the spell itself. Its why the Ministry is so serious about any underage spell casting at all.


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post Aug 14 2006, 08:56 PM
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It seems very clear that the twins, at the ver least, did use occasional magic, or atleast try to, when they were at home. Two examples, (one successful) are: turning Ron's favorite bear into a spider, and attempting to do an unbreakable vow with Ron.

They also worked on their majic joke shop, but much of this might fall under potions, whihc may not be monitored in the same way.

I personally do not think the ministry is terribly serious about underage spell casting. Harry did other spells for which there was no trouble at all. Even when he accidentally blewup his aunt, the ministry was not bothered so much, and I don't think this is just because they were concerned about Sirius. I honestly think the only reason that they made such a big deal about it in OoP is because they were trying to come against Harry. The way the court was setup made that abundantly clear.

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post Aug 14 2006, 09:31 PM
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Ah but there is a difference between underage magic in a magical household, and underage magic in a muggle household. In a magical household, the parents must notify the ministry of illegal activities, which the weasley parents may not have done. But in a muggle household, with a muggleborn wizard, it is clear when a child has violated this.


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post Aug 15 2006, 05:01 AM
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yeh i always figured that was Petunia exaggerating. Lily probably came home and started talking about all of the things she did at hogwarts. But Petunia was probably exaggerating when she said she used magic when she was underage.

Another possibility is that harry is more closely monitered by the ministry than most other magic children. Because Harry is "the boy who lived" the ministry are going to be very interested in what magic harry or anybody at Privet Drive is performing. It is possible that other magical children aren't as closely monitered.

However i think its more likely that Petunia was just exaggerating about what magic Lily performed in the school holidays.


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post Aug 15 2006, 06:18 AM
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QUOTE(TheRealDJ @ Aug 15 2006, 12:14 AM) [snapback]915530[/snapback]
Any sort of magic can be abused, such as say lifting something up above someone's head. The spell itself might be inocuous, but lets say she was keeping something out of Petunia's hands, or worse, lifted up Petunia's belt with her in it, it could indeed be a very serious offense, and the Ministry would not know the effects of what the spell she cast, only the spell itself. Its why the Ministry is so serious about any underage spell casting at all.
The point is that although underage magic can be serious, it isn't necessarily serious. The fact that Lily didn't get any serious warnings shows that she didn't use underage magic in any way that the Ministry would consider serious, and what the Ministry actually seem to be worried about is magic being revealed to muggles outside the immediate family of the young witch or wizard in question, and the Ministry can detect what spell was cast and whether any muggles were present.


This post has been edited by roonwit: Aug 15 2006, 06:19 AM


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post Aug 15 2006, 07:32 AM
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I have this quote from JK Rowling website:
QUOTE
In "Philosopher's Stone" Aunt Petunia says that Lily came back from Hogwarts with frog spawn in her pockets and turned teacups into rats. If this is true, why wasn't Lily expelled?

Aunt Petunia is exaggerating a little; you have to allow for her state of mind when she started shrieking these things. However, just like her son, Lily was not averse to testing the limits of the Statute of Secrecy, so you can safely assume she will have had a few warning letters – nothing too serious, though.


So to me this mean that even if aunt Petunia was exagerating a bit, after all she despise magic so it likely she would exagerate to make sure that magic looks horrible, that Lily must have had some official warnings from the Ministry of Magic, not any serious warning, so i think we can exclude that Lily did the same with with Petunia that Harry did with aunt Marge, but i am sure she probably did some transfiguration or maybe even some potions at home, after all she was extremely talented, she must have practice somewhere!


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post Aug 15 2006, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE(nympheart @ Aug 11 2006, 05:00 PM) [snapback]910666[/snapback]

Jo was actually asked this somewhere (sorry I looked and couldn't find it) but she said that Petunia was exaggerating. Though there probably is some truth there in my opinion. Would the ministry be able to detect the use of magical items? Like if Harry used the cloak at Privet Drive? Maybe Lily gave Petunia tea in one of those nose-biting teacups?


Yes, JK Rowling has confirmed this, that Petunia was just exaggerating about Lily. Petunia probably didn't know that underage wizards are not allowed to use macig outside of school, or she would've not been afraid of Harry in Chamber of Secrets.


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post Aug 15 2006, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE(lilyfica @ Aug 15 2006, 07:50 AM) [snapback]916336[/snapback]

QUOTE(nympheart @ Aug 11 2006, 05:00 PM) [snapback]910666[/snapback]

Jo was actually asked this somewhere (sorry I looked and couldn't find it) but she said that Petunia was exaggerating. Though there probably is some truth there in my opinion. Would the ministry be able to detect the use of magical items? Like if Harry used the cloak at Privet Drive? Maybe Lily gave Petunia tea in one of those nose-biting teacups?


Yes, JK Rowling has confirmed this, that Petunia was just exaggerating about Lily. Petunia probably didn't know that underage wizards are not allowed to use macig outside of school, or she would've not been afraid of Harry in Chamber of Secrets.

Very Good point, suspect you are correct.


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post Aug 15 2006, 07:07 PM
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I think it was like how Dudley sometimes complains of Harry using magic even when he really isn't, out of paranoia. Harry is also occasionally guilty of influencing Dudley's imagination, and maybe his mother amused herself in a similar way.

Why would anybody go around with pockets of frog spawn, anyway? Fashion statement?
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post Aug 16 2006, 07:24 PM
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How do you know she was underage?


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post Aug 18 2006, 07:07 AM
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QUOTE(CrAzY_Bunette @ Aug 17 2006, 01:24 AM) [snapback]918764[/snapback]

How do you know she was underage?


that's a very good point actually. she could have been using magic after her 17th birthday. good point


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QUOTE(TheRealDJ @ Aug 15 2006, 02:31 AM) [snapback]915863[/snapback]

Ah but there is a difference between underage magic in a magical household, and underage magic in a muggle household. In a magical household, the parents must notify the ministry of illegal activities, which the weasley parents may not have done



Magical parents don't have to notify the ministry. DD explained that the ministry relies exclusively on the magical parents to enforce the rule in their house.


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call_me_goddess
post Sep 16 2006, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE(carolina_cannonball @ Aug 11 2006, 09:31 AM) [snapback]910489[/snapback]
I am re-reading the series and I came across something that puzzled me. In PS/SS chapter 4 (?) "Keeper of the Keys" when Harry first meets Hagrid on the island and first learns he is a wizard we hear Petunia say about Harry's mother...

Explaining what a freak Lily was and that she would come home on vacation from "that school" and turn tea cups into rats and oh, how proud her parents were there was a witch in the family.

So Lily was performing under age magic. This means, most importantly, that whole permise that Uncle Vernon didn't know about Harry not being able to use magic @ Privet drive is false because Petunia would have known that Harry couldn't do magic away from school... unless Lily never got in trouble for doing underage magic @ her home away from school.


Someone asked the same question on jkrowling.com ...jk said that Petunia was over-reacting.But she must have known about alot to have known about "turning teacups into rats" and stuff like that...oh well...


This post has been edited by oj.: Sep 17 2006, 05:36 PM


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julita
post Sep 18 2006, 01:08 PM
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I think Petunia was exaggerating like JKR said. She also said that her mother and father were very proud of having a witch on the family, so I can imagine Lily, Petunia and their parents sitting on a table for dinner the day that Lily came back from school for holidays and talking about all the things Lily has learned during the school year while Petunia is (or feels) a little ignored. So she exaggerates when she says in PS that she have seen Lily doing that stuff

This post has been edited by JulitaHP: Sep 18 2006, 01:09 PM
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PotterPhreak
post Sep 28 2006, 12:44 AM
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If Lily was doing magic, and her parents are Muggle born then it would have been detected by the Ministry of Magic, and i'm sure something would have come out of it.

But then again Petunia is an over reating person, she's nosy and always wants to know others business and i'm guessing that she also would want to make Lily out to be such a horrible little witch freak to Harry so that he won't connect to her or something like that. She was just over reacting i think in the spare of the moment.


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FredFan
post Oct 4 2006, 07:00 PM
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I think there may be a little truth in all of it--Lily did just enough underage magic to get some warnings but not expulsion from school, but I'd also like to expand on what PotterPhreak said about Petunia's nosy ways. I can picture her sneaking into Lily's room and looking at her textbooks. Maybe that's where she got the specifics of turning a teacup into a rat. If she'll spy on her neighbors as an adult, she's certainly not above spying on her sister as a child. Even though she is horrified that she's a witch, that doesn't mean she's not curious--she'd just not want Lily to know it.


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Rosemarica
post Oct 19 2006, 09:50 PM
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where does DD explain wizarding pearants responsibility to inpliment the law agains underaged magic in their houses?


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heretoannoy93
post Oct 21 2006, 06:11 PM
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well, i think that you are allowed to do magic at home if you are surrounded by wizards or witches occasionally because the ministry of magic tracks down magic from the home, and we no this because dobby was in the home and harry was blamed because he was supposidly the only magic thing or person or creature there. also, harry does homework at home, which supposidly includes spells

as for the lily thing, i think that petunia was simply, how do i put this, making things up and what not. she is allowed to bring home magical items, so petunia may have been refering to those.


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Vestalon
post Oct 27 2006, 01:33 PM
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I know Jo said Petunia exaggerated. But what if Lily had the special permission to use magic at home. After all she was a member of the "Slug Club" and we know how many important people Slughorn knows. So if McG made it possible for Hermoine to use a time-turner maybe Slughorn made it possible for Lily to use magic at home - just for training of course. She was so talented maybe Slughorn felt for her living in a muggle-home without the chance to practice. ponder.gif
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