The official webforum of the The-Leaky-Cauldron.org LeakyNews.com: Leaky Info | Potter News | Features | Interactive | Galleries | The Books | The Films | For Fun

Leaky Lounge

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )
The Rules : FAQ : Search : Member List : Sitemap

Forum News: All you ever wanted to know about Jo's Book Nook
Hot Thread: PoA Animal Poll in the HP Book Club.
Mod Thread: David Tennant - Actor of the Month Discussion

Leaky Lounge > HP-Related Discussion: Diagon Alley > HP Book Discussion: Flourish and Blotts > Post-DH Predictions: Predicting the Unpredictable

 
 Reply to this topicStart new topic
Lily, Snape, Voldemort, How not to underestimate anyone's abilities and actions
WalnutWandCarrie...
post Apr 3 2009, 06:23 PM
Post #1
Cauldron Bottom Measurer


**

Posts: 127
Joined: 12:15pm February 19, 2009
So, I think the unanswered question we've worked out regarding Rosmerta is whether or not she was free of the Impirius Curse at the moment of the funeral, so that she could have attended it in the first place (whether or not Harry noticed her or why not if she was there would be a second question).

As for Snape:

I think he'd be COMPLETELY different as a partner, than during the rest of his life's activities: He is someone who truly and completely lives for love and only for love - every action he does is for Lily, that's the only meaning any action could possibly have for him if it has any meaning at all. He was like that towards Lily both when she was alive and then when she was dead.

When it comes to love, he's not the Snape we know from classes and so on. He's completely romantic and tender towards the one he loves, as we can see it in his many Lily-related memories (even when they quarrel, you can feel this deep emotion he holds for her and this huge vulnerability he's got as the gifted and emotionally profound person he is, and this sadness because of love). (And it's also out of love that he becomes bitter and a bullying man, because love has such a strong impact on him. His every attitude comes from love. That's what makes him so different from other men and so special - cos normally you don't base all your actions and attitudes of your every day life on love, it doesn't normally determine every situation of your daily life. Normally you're able to act independently from love in your every day life, you're able to act normally, if you're a responsible adult. Snape, however, is downright capable of such insanity. He's completely gorgeous. (even if his behaviour is downright childish when he makes innocent people like Harry pay for his bitterness). But this childish, unconditioned love is what makes us love him so much I think, however unfair he was.

James, on the other hand, oh no, honestly, James, he's just so obsessed with himself, I don't think you could EVER get from him what Snape is capable of and willing to give someone he loves - that is to say: Snape just completely gives himself, he completely hands himself over to the one he loves (he even hands himself over to Lily via DD), his love is absolute.

James is just too busy with himself and the image he wants to create of himself, to be able to conentrate that intensively on a human being other than himself. He's compeltely loathable, what a nutter. He never had Snape's both intellectual and emotional profoundness, his capacity of very deep feelings - James is just so superficial, in my opinion.

This post has been edited by WalnutWandCarrier: Apr 3 2009, 06:24 PM
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post
 
 Start new topic
Replies
Eva Hedwig
post Apr 9 2009, 05:43 PM
Post #2
Luring Muggles into Knockturn-Alley


*****

Posts: 5,312
Joined: 1:37am January 29, 2005
Location: In the south where no Dementor can find me
QUOTE
Some people claimed that when Snape made the decision to become a death eater in the first war, he wouldn't have known what kind of things he would have to do when he joined. That he wouldn't have been aware of what atrocities Voldemort and the death eaters were responsible for.


I think that Snape didn't knew how bad V. would turn out. Not even Regulus or his parents knew and it seems that they had much more information as Snape. V. was manipulating people into following him, not telling how exactly he was planning to operate.

The atrocities came much later, when they were in it and couldn't find a way to resign without beeing murdered themselves, as Sirius also told Harry in GP 12.

I think it was similar to the mouse trap with Grindelwald- DD. DD at first was engaged with GG thinking that they were fighting for the same reasons, but he had to learn that he differed from GG. While DD was a strong personality and could turn round, Snape and Regulus and many others hadn't the same fortune and stuck with V. following his orders willingly or not so willingly.

That was the reason why almost nobody wanted to find him, when he disappeared, only a hard-core of uncurable lunatics. The others were quite happy to be rid of him. dry.gif

This post has been edited by Eva Hedwig: Apr 9 2009, 05:45 PM
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPMEmail Poster
+Quote Post
Wendall
post Apr 10 2009, 04:12 AM
Post #3
Quality Quidditch Supplies Test-Flyer


***

Posts: 1,279
Joined: 3:47pm November 27, 2006
Location: Dublin
QUOTE(Eva Hedwig @ Apr 9 2009, 11:43 PM) *
I think that Snape didn't knew how bad V. would turn out. Not even Regulus or his parents knew and it seems that they had much more information as Snape. V. was manipulating people into following him, not telling how exactly he was planning to operate.

The atrocities came much later, when they were in it and couldn't find a way to resign without beeing murdered themselves, as Sirius also told Harry in GP 12.


The war started when Snape was about ten years old. Regulus would have been about eight or nine, I think.

By the time we see Snape at the end of his fifth year, and Lily accuses him of wanting to become a death eater, the war has been going on for about six years.
Voldemort had already turned out as bad as we ever see him at this stage. He and his death eaters had been at war for six years, killing, torturing, controlling people. Setting dark marks over their crimes to advertise the fact that they were responsible.

Regulus and his parents knew exactly what Voldemort was up to. Sirius says that his parents thought he had the right idea with all his pure blood mania, they just got cold feet when they saw his methods. This indicates that they did know what kind of atrocities he was responsible for.
Regulus kept a scrapbook of newspaper cuttings about Voldemort. As the only newsworthy things Voldemort ever did were kill, torture and try to gain power, I dont know how Regulus would have been ignorant of Voldemort's crimes.

The whole wizarding world were terrified of Voldemort. So much so that they couldn't even speak his name. His death eaters were just as notorious. People's worst fear was coming home to find a dark mark over their house. The Ministry was in complete disarray. There was news every week of murders, tortures and people going missing.
How on earth would Snape avoid all this when the rest of the wizarding world is so fully aware of it?
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post
roonwit
post Apr 10 2009, 10:30 AM
Post #4
Leaky Lounge Over Achiever


Group Icon

Posts: 9,332
Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005
Location: near Muggleswick, UK
QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 10 2009, 10:12 AM) *
Voldemort had already turned out as bad as we ever see him at this stage.
That is wrong. As the other prophecy says, Voldemort only really reached his worst after he got his body back.
QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 10 2009, 10:12 AM) *
He and his death eaters had been at war for six years, killing, torturing, controlling people. Setting dark marks over their crimes to advertise the fact that they were responsible.
You are still assuming that the people knew then what they knew in hindsight, and also that the death eaters were consistent in their activities throughout the first war, and there is no evidence that this is the case. Indeed, if that were true, then Voldemort wouldn't have taken as long as 11 years to take over. And it seems that it was only towards the end that the death eaters were powerful enough to start killing off the Order.
QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 10 2009, 10:12 AM) *
Regulus kept a scrapbook of newspaper cuttings about Voldemort. As the only newsworthy things Voldemort ever did were kill, torture and try to gain power, I dont know how Regulus would have been ignorant of Voldemort's crimes.
Again you are assuming that this is the case. It is more likely that Voldemort tried the political approach, as for example Sirius's parents knew enough about Voldemort's political views to agree with them, and Voldemort tries something similar with Dumbledore on the off-chance that he might get a teaching job. He also needs death eaters and it would be much more effective to win such people over by persuasion than starting to force them to join straight away. Of course he would mix his strategies, with mysterious disappearances happening at the same time as Voldemort also pursued his more nefarious tactics but he would make sure that there was no evidence linking such happenings back to him.

So I think at this stage, the death eaters were just starting to act more openly, enough for Lily to spot what they really were, but with enough ambiguity for Regulus not to realise what he was getting himself in to.


--------------------

W.L.Y.J.
We love you Jo
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post
Wendall
post Apr 10 2009, 12:49 PM
Post #5
Quality Quidditch Supplies Test-Flyer


***

Posts: 1,279
Joined: 3:47pm November 27, 2006
Location: Dublin
QUOTE(roonwit @ Apr 10 2009, 04:30 PM) *
QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 10 2009, 10:12 AM) *
Voldemort had already turned out as bad as we ever see him at this stage.
That is wrong. As the other prophecy says, Voldemort only really reached his worst after he got his body back.


So what did Voldemort do after his return that was worse than murder and torture?
We know he and his death eaters killed many people in the first war, magic and muggle. We know they tortured many people.
Everything Dumbledore did upon his return was based on what Voldemort had done during the first war, which suggest that he used the same tactics. Like using Giants for causing mass damage for example. So obviously there's not much difference in the kind of things Voldemort was responsible in the first war, and the kind of things he does in the second.

QUOTE
You are still assuming that the people knew then what they knew in hindsight, and also that the death eaters were consistent in their activities throughout the first war, and there is no evidence that this is the case. Indeed, if that were true, then Voldemort wouldn't have taken as long as 11 years to take over. And it seems that it was only towards the end that the death eaters were powerful enough to start killing off the Order.


No, I'm not. I'm just accepting what Sirius tells us about the first war.
There was new reports every week of people being killed, tortured and going missing. The ministry was in a mess. Muggles were being targeted just like wizards were. If news was coming every week about these atrocities, then how is it all hinsight?

If nobody knew how bad Voldemort was, then how come there was news every week about what was happening, why was everybody's greatest fear coming home to see the dark mark over their house, why were people were so scared of Voldemort that they wouldn't even say his name?

QUOTE
Again you are assuming that this is the case. It is more likely that Voldemort tried the political approach, as for example Sirius's parents knew enough about Voldemort's political views to agree with them,


They also know enough about Voldemort's atrocities that they weren't willing to follow him. What were they so scared of if they didn't know how bad he was?


QUOTE
and Voldemort tries something similar with Dumbledore on the off-chance that he might get a teaching job.


You mean the teaching job he applied for so he could put his horcrux into the room of requirement. Dumbledore said to Voldemort in the interview that he already knew he wasn't going to get the job. He asked him why he was really there. It was a facade for getting into the school.


QUOTE
He also needs death eaters and it would be much more effective to win such people over by persuasion than starting to force them to join straight away. Of course he would mix his strategies, with mysterious disappearances happening at the same time as Voldemort also pursued his more nefarious tactics but he would make sure that there was no evidence linking such happenings back to him.


Right. So he made sure there was nothing linking his atrocities to him by telling his followers to cast dark marks at the scenes of their crimes? Surely casting the dark mark advertised exactly who was responsible. Wasn't that the point? To let everybody know who was behind the crime, so that they'd all be terrified of him.

One of Voldemort's great aims was notoriety. He wanted everybody to know how great a wizard he was and he wanted everybody to fear his name.
So if he was so determined and so successful at having nobody know what horrible crimes he was responsible for, how would anybody know how powerful he was and why would anybody fear him?
That makes no sense at all.

QUOTE
So I think at this stage, the death eaters were just starting to act more openly, enough for Lily to spot what they really were, but with enough ambiguity for Regulus not to realise what he was getting himself in to.


Ah, yes. Of course Lily has figured out how bad death eaters were, but somehow Snape and Regulus were ignorant of it altogether.
Those two must have walked around with their eyes closed and their hands over their ears all day to avoid this full scale wizarding war that everybody else seemed to know about.

This post has been edited by Wendall: Apr 10 2009, 12:52 PM
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post
roonwit
post Apr 13 2009, 03:11 PM
Post #6
Leaky Lounge Over Achiever


Group Icon

Posts: 9,332
Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005
Location: near Muggleswick, UK
QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 10 2009, 06:49 PM) *
So what did Voldemort do after his return that was worse than murder and torture?
We know he and his death eaters killed many people in the first war, magic and muggle. We know they tortured many people.
But it probably wasn't as bad during the first war as it was in the second. In addition Voldemort finally gained control over the Ministry in the second war, which gave him free reign and the power to oppress on a much greater scale.
QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 10 2009, 06:49 PM) *
Everything Dumbledore did upon his return was based on what Voldemort had done during the first war, which suggest that he used the same tactics.
I am sure Voldemort was using the more or less the same tactics at the end of the first war as he did during the start of the second, because he had had eleven years to find out what worked and what didn't. But I doubt he employed the same tactics throughout the first war, because then he still had to learn how much the wizarding world would accept, and whether it could be persuaded to adopt his rules or whether it would oppose him. Also, I imagine he was held back by a more effective Ministry and it was only gradually that he was able to undermine it and become free to employ the sort of tactics you describe.
QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 10 2009, 06:49 PM) *
QUOTE
You are still assuming that the people knew then what they knew in hindsight, and also that the death eaters were consistent in their activities throughout the first war, and there is no evidence that this is the case. Indeed, if that were true, then Voldemort wouldn't have taken as long as 11 years to take over. And it seems that it was only towards the end that the death eaters were powerful enough to start killing off the Order.

No, I'm not. I'm just accepting what Sirius tells us about the first war.
There was new reports every week of people being killed, tortured and going missing. The ministry was in a mess.
Yes, you are. Sirius is talking with hindsight, describing how things ended up, because that was the worst part, it would be how he remembered it, and it would the part he knew most about because he had full information through the Order rather than the occasional bit of news filtering through, possibly limited by the Ministry, from those who read the newspapers aand other sources at school.
QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 10 2009, 06:49 PM) *
Right. So he made sure there was nothing linking his atrocities to him by telling his followers to cast dark marks at the scenes of their crimes?
You are still assuming the tactics were the same throughout the first war, which is something you have no evidence of, and which is unlikely to be the case.

This post has been edited by roonwit: Apr 13 2009, 03:16 PM


--------------------

W.L.Y.J.
We love you Jo
Go to the top of the page
Profile CardPM
+Quote Post

Posts in this topic
- WalnutWandCarrier   Lily, Snape, Voldemort   Apr 3 2009, 06:23 PM
- - Wendall   QUOTE(WalnutWandCarrier @ Apr 4 2009, 12...   Apr 4 2009, 05:38 AM
|- - Mrs_Linnea_Snape   QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 4 2009, 06:38 AM) QUO...   Apr 4 2009, 11:50 AM
|- - Wendall   QUOTE(Mrs_Linnea_Snape @ Apr 4 2009, 05:5...   Apr 4 2009, 12:08 PM
- - The Sorting Hat   I agree. I never loved Snape afterwards, just beca...   Apr 4 2009, 08:19 AM
|- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTE(The Sorting Hat @ Apr 4 2009, 01:19...   Apr 4 2009, 10:24 AM
- - WalnutWandCarrier   @Wendall: Of course, yours is the healthy, perfect...   Apr 4 2009, 02:07 PM
|- - Wendall   QUOTE(WalnutWandCarrier @ Apr 4 2009, 08...   Apr 4 2009, 03:15 PM
- - WalnutWandCarrier   No, we definitely DON'T have any REAL, primary...   Apr 4 2009, 04:24 PM
- - The-T-Dane   QUOTE(WalnutWandCarrier @ Apr 4 2009, 09...   Apr 4 2009, 05:50 PM
- - WalnutWandCarrier   Well, some posters are actually (implicitly) sayin...   Apr 5 2009, 07:34 AM
|- - Wendall   QUOTE(WalnutWandCarrier @ Apr 5 2009, 01...   Apr 5 2009, 09:20 AM
- - maenad   QUOTENo. These would be crimes that Voldemort was ...   Apr 5 2009, 01:41 PM
|- - the_boy_who_lived   QUOTE(maenad @ Apr 5 2009, 01:41 PM) Leav...   Apr 6 2009, 01:10 PM
|- - Wendall   QUOTE(the_boy_who_lived @ Apr 6 2009, 07...   Apr 6 2009, 02:22 PM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(the_boy_who_lived @ Apr 6 2009, 07...   Apr 6 2009, 02:34 PM
|- - Wendall   QUOTE(roonwit @ Apr 6 2009, 08:34 PM) Yes...   Apr 6 2009, 04:23 PM
|- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 6 2009, 09:23 PM) So ...   Apr 8 2009, 04:13 PM
|- - Wendall   QUOTE(Eva Hedwig @ Apr 8 2009, 10:13 PM) ...   Apr 8 2009, 04:37 PM
|- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTE(roonwit @ Apr 10 2009, 03:30 PM) He...   Apr 10 2009, 12:14 PM
|- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 10 2009, 05:49 PM) Ah...   Apr 10 2009, 03:52 PM
||- - Wendall   QUOTE(Eva Hedwig @ Apr 10 2009, 09:52 PM)...   Apr 10 2009, 05:15 PM
||- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 10 2009, 10:15 PM) Ah...   Apr 10 2009, 06:30 PM
||- - Wendall   QUOTE(Eva Hedwig @ Apr 11 2009, 12:30 AM)...   Apr 11 2009, 08:08 AM
||- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 11 2009, 01:08 PM) Sn...   Apr 11 2009, 11:08 AM
||- - Wendall   QUOTE(Eva Hedwig @ Apr 11 2009, 05:08 PM)...   Apr 11 2009, 03:18 PM
|- - Wendall   QUOTE(roonwit @ Apr 13 2009, 09:11 PM) Bu...   Apr 13 2009, 06:36 PM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 14 2009, 12:36 AM) QU...   Apr 15 2009, 04:20 PM
- - Name Unknown   Has anyone considered that they knew full well wha...   Apr 10 2009, 05:56 PM
- - maenad   QUOTEIn my understanding, V. in essence is a very ...   Apr 11 2009, 12:20 PM
|- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTE(maenad @ Apr 11 2009, 05:20 PM) Wou...   Apr 11 2009, 01:19 PM
- - horas1   QUOTE(maenad @ Apr 11 2009, 05:20 PM) Wouldn't...   Apr 11 2009, 02:17 PM
|- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTE(horas1 @ Apr 11 2009, 07:17 PM) As ...   Apr 11 2009, 08:54 PM
- - horas1   QUOTEIf they had been so happy with their master, ...   Apr 12 2009, 07:39 AM
|- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTE(horas1 @ Apr 12 2009, 12:39 PM) Yes...   Apr 12 2009, 10:42 AM
- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTEYou have no evidence that Voldemort only star...   Apr 13 2009, 08:57 PM
|- - Wendall   QUOTE(Eva Hedwig @ Apr 14 2009, 02:57 AM)...   Apr 14 2009, 04:33 AM
|- - Mrs_Linnea_Snape   QUOTE(Wendall @ Apr 14 2009, 05:33 AM) Al...   Apr 14 2009, 05:23 AM
|- - Wendall   QUOTE(Mrs_Linnea_Snape @ Apr 14 2009, 11...   Apr 14 2009, 08:04 AM
- - maenad   QUOTEWendall, it's not that you and maenad hav...   Apr 14 2009, 06:54 AM
- - horas1   The book says that Regulus believed as most all th...   Apr 14 2009, 11:44 AM
- - Eva Hedwig   Sirius maybe didn't knew exactly what Regulus ...   Apr 14 2009, 11:50 AM
- - maenad   QUOTEI think that the most reliable source about R...   Apr 14 2009, 12:14 PM
- - Iheartprofessorsnape   I've created a thread with all the wonderful d...   Apr 14 2009, 04:17 PM
- - wickedboy   The way I look at this issue is that there is no c...   Apr 15 2009, 04:26 AM
- - Eva Hedwig   QUOTEIn either case, it was the wrong choice in my...   Apr 15 2009, 11:52 AM
- - acciosirius   This is a very interesting topic! If I could m...   May 23 2009, 06:40 PM

 

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Powered By IP.Board 2.3.6 © 2010  IPS, Inc.
CommunitySEO 1.1.4 P1 © 2010  IPB SEO Module
Sorting is open now for Deathly Hallows! Follow this link.
Coming Up:
The Corner Booth is on Hiatus Join us in the New Year!
Come right in to the Shrieking Shack Arcade!
Shopping at the Cauldron Shop supports this forum!
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here