Possible Madam Pince/Snape connection?, Discuss here ... |
 Jun 15 2006, 06:53 AM
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Trying to Resell a Used Comet Two-Sixty  Posts: 2,574 Joined: 6:16pm October 4, 2005 Location: Reading the Lexicon    |
Well, it's been nearly two months so I figured it was time to do a bit of CPR on my thread. So, I've been thinking about Fluffy, Filch, Snape as healer, and of course, Madam Pince.
In PS/SS, Snape confiscates Quidditch Through the Ages from Harry because he has a library book out of school, although they are only just outside. Harry suspects Snape made up that rule. QttA is also interesting because it appears to be the only place Madam Pince's first name is written in any of the Potter books, as she figures prominently in the introduction. Harry decides he's going to get the book back from Snape and proceeds to find Filch helping Snape wrap up his injured leg. So this library book led Harry directly to Snape and Filch. But, now we know Snape is actually a pretty good medic. Perhaps Fluffy's attack was actually more like a real dog, rather than magical, so no amount of counter-curses were going to help it. But we also know Snape is a private person. And here he is with his robes up to his knees so Filch can bandage him up. I realize Filch and Snape do have similar personalities-a great love of children (  ) among other things. But it still seems a bit out of place. Tending someone's bandages seems so personal (unless of course it was in a hospital or something). I would think Snape would rather attempt to do it himself, heck, I can't imagine him asking anyone for help about anything. And Filch even knows how Snape was injured. So after reading HBP, seeing that Snape is a good healer, and a very powerful wizard actually, the scene between him and Filch becomes all the more startling. Except that Filch and Madam Pince appear to be an item. Harry thinks so. Then Filch escorts her to DD's funeral (the first and only time she's been seen out of the library-not for any Christmas feasts or anything). If Madam Pince is Snape's mum, in hiding, and "with" Filch, the scene between Snape and Filch suddenly makes more sense. GodricsSword, two months later, I re-read your post, and think you may be on to something. I'm not 100% sure but I wonder whether LV might have wanted to separate Snape from his Muggle father, just like LV did kill his, as well as Barty Crouch Jr did. So, while we don't know anything about Snape's dad, that they might get his mum for sullying the family, that's a good thought. As soon as I read about the offer to hide Narcissa, bells went off in my head-we've done this before haven't we, Dumbledore? -------------------- “Sweet is true love that is given in vain, and sweet is death that takes away pain.” -Alfred, Lord Tennyson |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:58 AM
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Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 77 Joined: 3:50am June 8, 2006 Location: in the summer holidays |
MuggleMommyof2 - how do we know Snape has a bat for his patronus?
Sorry I must have missed that bit of the book, i know he is described as bat like, but... I know where this theory is coming from the Irma Pince = Eileen Prince but if she was going to change her name, wouldn't she change it to something less connected with the former name... This post has been edited by Dreaming_Princess: Jun 15 2006, 08:00 AM |
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Jun 15 2006, 10:27 AM
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Trying to Resell a Used Comet Two-Sixty Posts: 2,574 Joined: 6:16pm October 4, 2005 Location: Reading the Lexicon |
QUOTE(Dreaming_Princess @ Jun 15 2006, 12:58 PM) [snapback]854703[/snapback] MuggleMommyof2 - how do we know Snape has a bat for his patronus? Sorry I must have missed that bit of the book, i know he is described as bat like, but... According to JKR his patronus and boggart would both give away too much. So nothing is "known." QUOTE I know where this theory is coming from the Irma Pince = Eileen Prince but if she was going to change her name, wouldn't she change it to something less connected with the former name... OK, this is the way I see it, that is true but it has to be something that can be figured out, it has to be a clue. Her name could not be Winifried Klinsmann because that wouldn't point us to anything, except she might root for Germany this year. Example, of course, Lord Voldemort. When Harry saw the diary, with the name Tom Marvolo Riddle-this matches perfectly with Lord Voldemort with only 3 letters left over M-A-I. Sure enough, we get "I Am Lord Voldemort." So anyone reading COS could have riddled (HA HA) out who the diary belonged to. With Irma all you do is move the 'r' from Irma to Pince and you get Prince with the same three letters left over I-M-A. It is true that Pince is an appropriate name for a librarian-Pince makes people think of pince-nez (glasses that pinch the nose). Irma comes from the German Irmin meaning whole or complete, as in "I trust Severus Snape completely." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irminsul QUOTE Irmin was the war god of the Saxons, son of Mannus, and ancestor of the tribe of the Herminones. Hermione is a huge fan of the library, if not the librarian herself. So that makes the name Irma fit the librarian as well. This, in my opinion, is one of the reasons JKR is so clever-she makes things work on like 4 or 5 levels sometimes. Also funny is that Filch and Pinch both mean to steal something in slang. "Irma" was not revealed until Quidditch through the Ages, which was published between GOF and OotP, if my memory serves. Only after HBP do we have the clue that Snape's got Princes in the family. Now that there has to be a reason that DD isn't wrong about him. HBP p.592 italics my own . . . QUOTE "Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise."
-------------------- “Sweet is true love that is given in vain, and sweet is death that takes away pain.” -Alfred, Lord Tennyson |
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Jun 15 2006, 01:03 PM
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Inquiring about Double-ended Newts Posts: 987 Joined: 4:21am March 6, 2006 Location: Wandering the landscape listening out for phoenix song... |
Hello PAM2002
Just wanted to say I'm so pleased to have found this thread. We were discussing Eileen Prince some weeks back on 'Snape's Loyalty' and I said I thought Mme Pince might be her, but nobody seemed to like the idea. Someone gave me a link to a discussion which they said would prove she wasn't - but all it did was to quote the description of young Eileen and argue that the kids would have recognised her from her photo. I don't buy that at all. It seems very unlikely to me that a woman in her 60s could be recognised from a photo of her taken at age 15 or 16, particularly by someone who didn't know her very well. So I'm sticking with it. I can't add anything to the arguments you've put forward already, but if Snape does turn out to be on the good side - and I still think he is - then more about his background has got to come out somehow, and more on Dumbledore's 'iron clad' reasons for trusting him, and this may be part of it. Please accept a  from a fellow-believer!!
--------------------  'We read to make sure we're not alone.' (Shadowlands) |
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Jun 15 2006, 02:00 PM
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Trying to Resell a Used Comet Two-Sixty Posts: 2,574 Joined: 6:16pm October 4, 2005 Location: Reading the Lexicon |
Thanks bemused. I truly appreciate that anyone buys it. I can't claim to be the first to have thought of it, but I think I've done a lot of work to prove that it could be true. But even when I argue Snape's Loyalty, I never argue this. It's just a sub-theory, but so wildly unpopular and people think it's outrageous, so I never use it as an argument.
It isn't only because of HBP that it's possible. That's just when we get one of the last pieces, Prince. As I posted earlier there are incidents starting in PS/SS, and in nearly every book (none in POA, if memory serves), of a strange similarity between things Snape does and Madam Pince, in usually her only scene in any given book. My very first post in this thread lists the book quotes (unfortunately the quotes boxes were messed up when Leaky updated a few months ago). -------------------- “Sweet is true love that is given in vain, and sweet is death that takes away pain.” -Alfred, Lord Tennyson |
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Jun 15 2006, 04:29 PM
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 418 Joined: 6:12pm April 8, 2006 Location: In animagus form watching Snape, and yes, he really is washing his hair on a Saturday night! |
I love the Irma Pince theory - really, Madam Pince is described very similarly to Snape in the series.
But something bothers me. Probably mentioned on this thread. I gave up perusing after 3 pages. I am reading "Quidditch throught the Ages" - the charity book - for the first time - Sorry, a little late, I know - DD comments on Madam Pince DD points out how upset she was to realize the book would be available for muggles. How he had to prise the book from her fingers. Now, Eileen Prince married a muggle Tobias Snape. So why would Madam Pince ( if she is Eileen) have issues with muggles if she married one? -burned by love? Those Snape males are no walk in the park? Not the romantic types? |
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Jun 15 2006, 04:47 PM
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Trying to Resell a Used Comet Two-Sixty Posts: 2,574 Joined: 6:16pm October 4, 2005 Location: Reading the Lexicon |
philippics, I think I could kiss you.
I'm so glad you brought this up, because I hadn't thought of that before so I have something new to think about. I needed a really good issue to test my theory. That's it.Off the top of my head, when discussing Eileen before, I have considered that she fell in love but tried to hide the fact that she was a witch, similar to Seamus's mother. Notice in Snape's memory she's cowering not fighting back with a wand. Snape, I would wager, developed his animosity towards Muggles from his father specifically. So, Snape goes off and joins LV, realizes what a fool he's been, etc. But maybe Eileen has a similar transformation, that she had decided to try to live like a Muggle and it didn't work out, and now would prefer to adhere to Wizarding customs and protect their world. Think of Snape's lecture to Harry and Ron, after the flying car episode, exactly about exposing their world. I can see her not wanting to share the things she's come to realize are very precious, with people that think Wizards are freaks etc. I wouldn't go as far as to say Eileen became like the Malfoys, maybe her desire to abandon all things magical turned around. Snape certainly has a very strong Muggle sense of things-his logic puzzle, for example. Maybe she was all Muggle-lover, Snape was Muggle-hater and they both came back to a more middle ground. That's the best I can come up with at the moment but I promise to think about it some more. (Anyway, did you also notice DD says something about dropping dead and leaving no instructions, on Madam Pince's suggestion? Hmm.) -------------------- “Sweet is true love that is given in vain, and sweet is death that takes away pain.” -Alfred, Lord Tennyson |
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Jun 15 2006, 05:41 PM
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 418 Joined: 6:12pm April 8, 2006 Location: In animagus form watching Snape, and yes, he really is washing his hair on a Saturday night! |
Yes, and actually someone else on another site noted the "dropping dead without leaving instructions" and it floored me. Then I decided I 'd better get my hands on the 2 charity books. I pushed them aside thinking no clues or hints would be in them?
Ah, maybe that's what she thougt we would think. The author is totally toying with us on that one. With all the concern about - Did DD leave a will?" Did DD leave things for Harry? What does Harry do next? Anymore Lv or horcrux info? But not for nothing - to anyone that has read my post - read for yourself DD's foreward to "Quidditch through the Ages" - I have definitely oversimplified. Most of the foreward is dominated by his reinforcing how much Libararian Pince has reservations regarding muggles - to put it lightly After I read it, I felt like J.K. was trying to hit it over our heads like a ton of bricks. We will get no definitive answers - but she will hint at what we need to look at further. Also, for me the house in SPinner's End seemed like a reflection of Snape's life and unhappiness - lonely, stuffy, fussy, weary. Needs some work. Reflects his habits. And really - let's think for a moment - if one is not aware of the PInce theory - that foreward means nothing - Hey, we know Filch and Pince are pains in the butt - not friendly - Who knows if J.k. thought anyone would really come up with the theory? One has to be familiar with the Pince theory or it doesn't stick out. This post has been edited by philippics: Jun 15 2006, 05:45 PM |
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Jun 16 2006, 12:32 PM
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 36 Joined: 2:06am August 25, 2005 |
I apologize if I'm repeating anything, as I didn't have time to read through everything. I think that this is definitely a possibility. DD would indeed think it was amusing to hide someone 'in plain sight' so to speak, and to use the same renaming technique as Voldemort.
I forget who said it, but someone suggested that Eileen Prince might be the HBP instead of her son. Well, take that a little further and you have a very plausible reason for why she might still have been in hiding even after Voldemort supposedly died the first time. The spells in Advanced Potion Making that had been handwritten seemed to be getting more and more complex. If sectumsempra was any indication of the direction that the HBP was heading, then it's not too big a stretch of imagination to see him or her thinking up some really bad stuff later on in life and using it. If she happened to hurt someone with those spells, she would have a very good reason to still be in hiding- that person or persons might not be in any way related to Voldemort or his movement. Also, Davidenglish said that "I also find the "open secret" a bit difficult to accept. Unless Madam Pince is a brilliant disguise, someone is likely to indentify her as Eileen Prince." Hermione had a great deal of difficulty discovering who Eileen was since not much was written about her. It's not too big of a stretch to think that no one would recognize her, save perhaps the teachers who had taught her, and they might have been sworn to secrecy. Another quote, same source, said "...and I don't think Snape would approve of his mother dating Argus Filtch." When does it become the right of the child to choose the love interest of the mother? Eileen/Irma is a grown woman and fully capable of picking out her men- approval or not! Good work on all the vulture symbology, btw. -------------------- "Consider the black widow spider. A timid little beastie, useful, and the prettiest of the arachnids, with its patent-leather finish and its hourglass trademark. But the poor thing has the misfortune of too much power for its size. So everybody kills it."-Robert A. Heinlein
"...Voldemort tends to be grandiose. He tends to like elaborate plans. He's like the Martha Stewart of villains."- va32h |
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Jun 16 2006, 03:49 PM
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Trying to Resell a Used Comet Two-Sixty Posts: 2,574 Joined: 6:16pm October 4, 2005 Location: Reading the Lexicon |
QUOTE(Schehezerade @ Jun 16 2006, 05:32 PM) [snapback]856060[/snapback] I apologize if I'm repeating anything, as I didn't have time to read through everything. I think that this is definitely a possibility. DD would indeed think it was amusing to hide someone 'in plain sight' so to speak, and to use the same renaming technique as Voldemort. It would rather be somewhat mocking to LV, especially with a "Prince" to his "Lord." QUOTE I forget who said it, but someone suggested that Eileen Prince might be the HBP instead of her son. Well, take that a little further and you have a very plausible reason for why she might still have been in hiding even after Voldemort supposedly died the first time. The spells in Advanced Potion Making that had been handwritten seemed to be getting more and more complex. If sectumsempra was any indication of the direction that the HBP was heading, then it's not too big a stretch of imagination to see him or her thinking up some really bad stuff later on in life and using it. If she happened to hurt someone with those spells, she would have a very good reason to still be in hiding- that person or persons might not be in any way related to Voldemort or his movement. I've gone in circles about that-Harry is so attached to the Prince, I really think it has to be Snape now, because they need a reason to trust eachother. But at the same time, I think Eileen must have gone to school with LV, but maybe she taught Snape some of the potions stuff, not his spells. QUOTE Also, Davidenglish said that "I also find the "open secret" a bit difficult to accept. Unless Madam Pince is a brilliant disguise, someone is likely to indentify her as Eileen Prince." Hermione had a great deal of difficulty discovering who Eileen was since not much was written about her. It's not too big of a stretch to think that no one would recognize her, save perhaps the teachers who had taught her, and they might have been sworn to secrecy. I truly think she would modify her appearance. I know it's a stretch but I mentioned somewhere that Tonks actually takes on some of Lupin's looks as she pines for him-she's tired and has mousy hair (defined as basically grey-brown). I do believe we are due another metamorphmagus. That isn't a requirement to the theory but just a possiblity. QUOTE Another quote, same source, said "...and I don't think Snape would approve of his mother dating Argus Filtch." When does it become the right of the child to choose the love interest of the mother? Eileen/Irma is a grown woman and fully capable of picking out her men- approval or not! True enough. It's also clear Snape gets along rather well with Filch. Sure he tells him to shut up when he's telling Moody/Crouch about his office being broken into, but he doesn't mind Filch knowing about it. And the same with the bite from Fluffy. He has Filch report to him if anyone is wandering about after curfew in PS/SS. Why does Filch report to Snape unless either Snape has a job we don't know about (I still like to think of him as head of security on a day to day basis, as of course, DD is truly overall) or it's because they get along so well that Filch does whatever Snape asks of him. But Snape more or less trusts him, which from Snape is probably significant. QUOTE Good work on all the vulture symbology, btw. Thank you.  philippics, I'm not ignoring you, I'm just still thinking. -------------------- “Sweet is true love that is given in vain, and sweet is death that takes away pain.” -Alfred, Lord Tennyson |
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