Mythology in Goblet of Fire, What's in YOUR Goblet? |
  Feb 4 2009, 02:51 PM
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Mischievous Manager  Posts: 5,347 Joined: 9:14am February 16, 2006 Location: Behind the sofa, watching Doctor Who   |
Mythology in Goblet of Fire What's in your Goblet? Creatures and mythology abound in both veiled and unveiled references throughout the books, and I think it's especially true in Goblet of Fire. The book's title itself has a definite "Holy Grail" sort of feel to it – Rowling herself said she liked the way it sounded like a "cup of destiny."  But that's just the start of it. There are an Acromantula, dragons, fairies (as decoration during the Yule Ball), flying horses, garden gnomes, grindylows, hippogriffs, House-Elves  , leprechauns, mermaids, owls, a phoenix, a sphinx, unicorns, and of course veela.And that's just the creatures. There are scores of magical items that have their roots in myth and legend, like the Maze, flying brooms, flying carpets, invisibility cloaks, a magical "all-seeing" eye  , crystal balls, portkeys, that trunk with the seven locks, the Golden Eggs the champions have to get from the dragons, Floo Powder and the Pensieve – which seems quite a bit like what Zeus or the other gods could use to spy on what we mortals are up to, doesn't it? And let's not forget that most magical tool itself, the magic wand – every wizard's best friend, an item that traces its roots way back through stories and legends into the far distant past.And I haven't even begun to touch some of the characters. Minerva, Pomona, Severus, Cassandra… all the first names of professors at Hogwarts, and all also the names of either historical or mythological figures. There are Celtic stories, Norse stories, Greek and Roman stories, and probably a lot more we can tie in as well. So, on to a few questions for general discussion, and then we can go into specifics throughout the story as the different items and creatures make their grand entrances.
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Feb 8 2009, 07:56 AM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer  Posts: 139 Joined: 9:48am December 19, 2006 Location: Wales, UK |
QUOTE(twiddlethosedials @ Feb 4 2009, 07:51 PM) 
First off, curiosity has this cat in a pickle - what myth had a character named Severus in it? The thing that I think really comes out here is the fact that JKR obviously did tons of research on character names as well as mythical creatures before writing the books and she does have a tendancy to give her characters names that fit there personality (and I thought I was the only geek that did that). I love it that she takes that much time and effort in creating people to inhabit her world. They each have a personality and a backstory, even if we never heard about it in the books. That's the reason that I'm so looking forward to her encyclopedia. She seems to stick very close to the actual mythological creature attributes as well. Not like some tv shows that just make up what a vampire or the like can do as they feel like. It makes me crazy when they do that. I've never caught Jo out on that score. -------------------- They who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night. - Poe
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Feb 8 2009, 01:25 PM
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 34 Joined: 6:50pm April 6, 2007 |
QUOTE(twiddlethosedials @ Feb 4 2009, 03:51 PM) Mythology in Goblet of Fire What's in your Goblet?
Merlynhawk: I don't know of any myths but Septimus Severus was a Roman leader. There is a coin with Severus on one side and Minerva on the other. Since reading Deathly Hallows, I thought it was symbolic that the Goblet of Fire brings Voldemort back and the Deathly Hallows sends Voldemort away for good. In the Holy Grail stories Percival has to prove himself worthy, Harry has proved himself worthy by the final story. Yet Albus Percival Dumbledore makes his fatal mistake by wearing the Pevervell ring. I like to think of these Harry Potter stories as a modern day myth, although with a much more satisfying ending. Most of the heroes in Greek, Roman and King Arthur legends have tragic endings because of their flaws. Harry learns from his mistakes and survives. Regards. -------------------- Thanks to margaret dwyer for the avatar image.
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Feb 8 2009, 02:35 PM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 100 Joined: 10:20am March 6, 2008 Location: Alabama |
I would like to point out the theme of goblets, cups, and containers that endures through the rest of the series really gets its start here. We have the Goblet of Fire, the golden egg Harry must open and decipher, the Triwizard Cup, the Pensieve, the large cauldron holding the potion to revive Voldenmort, etc. In later books we get Hufflepuff cup, the Snitch (very similar to the golden egg), and so many others that I just can't think of right now. I think there's enough in the fourth book right now.
All of these containers have deep roots in mythology, but I would like to liken all these to the idea that Harry himself is a container. He contains a piece of Voldemort's soul. He also contains the potential to destroy Voldemort. I am also reminded of the origin of the Holy Grail--the cup used by Christ in the Last Supper. Christ says that the cup is a vessel for his blood, and they should drink from it in his remembrance. He also likens his eventual sacrifice to a cup, asking God in the Garden of Gethsemane to let the cup pass from him. In Deathly Hallows we finally see Harry as a Christ figure, dying voluntarily to save everyone. The entire walk to the Forbidden Forest is like his Garden of Gethsemane, and just as a multitude of angels came to comfort Jesus, Harry can call his parents, Sirius, and Remus to comfort him. And, of course, he has to open the Snitch. I know I got all Biblical with this, but I think Rowling pulls as much from the Bible as she does from Greco-Roman and Arthurian mythology. The point, that I've rather diverged from, is that all the vessel/cup imagery leads to the idea of Harry being a vessel. -------------------- Ron and angelcakes: Fans of bacon sandwiches since 1991.
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Feb 9 2009, 11:35 AM
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Mischievous Manager Posts: 5,347 Joined: 9:14am February 16, 2006 Location: Behind the sofa, watching Doctor Who |
Merlynhawk, you're right about JKR taking heavily from myth and tradition. But even then, sometimes I think she twists it in a way that makes it uniquely her own and keeps it fresh. So yeah, she's got werewolves who really are affected by the phases of the moon - but she's the only person I know who created a method for keeping the wolf tame (wolfsbane potion?). And sure, she's got ghosts, but they're not so much haunting the castle as populating it. I love how she keeps me guessing that way!
QUOTE(gabjac @ Feb 8 2009, 11:25 AM) Merlynhawk: I don't know of any myths but Septimus Severus was a Roman leader. There is a coin with Severus on one side and Minerva on the other. Since reading Deathly Hallows, I thought it was symbolic that the Goblet of Fire brings Voldemort back and the Deathly Hallows sends Voldemort away for good. In the Holy Grail stories Percival has to prove himself worthy, Harry has proved himself worthy by the final story. Yet Albus Percival Dumbledore makes his fatal mistake by wearing the Pevervell ring. I like to think of these Harry Potter stories as a modern day myth, although with a much more satisfying ending. Most of the heroes in Greek, Roman and King Arthur legends have tragic endings because of their flaws. Harry learns from his mistakes and survives. Regards. Good catch on Septimus Severus, gabjac. I wonder if JKR meant for Severus and Minerva to be like flip sides of the same coin?  We'll get into King Arthur a lot next week, when we'll be talking about the "hero's journey" and how that plays into mythology and Harry Potter. But that's a great observation about the symmetry between the Goblet and the Hallows. Especially because in Celtic mythology, there are four Hallows instead of three - and the fourth is a cauldron, much like Voldemort uses for his comeback. Percival may be in Dumbledore's name, but I don't think Dumbledore is the Percival in this story (and neither is Percy!). But again... stay with me on that because the wise old wizard type is definitely going to be a big topic of discussion next week. Promise!  QUOTE(angelcakes @ Feb 8 2009, 12:35 PM) I would like to point out the theme of goblets, cups, and containers that endures through the rest of the series really gets its start here. We have the Goblet of Fire, the golden egg Harry must open and decipher, the Triwizard Cup, the Pensieve, the large cauldron holding the potion to revive Voldenmort, etc. In later books we get Hufflepuff cup, the Snitch (very similar to the golden egg), and so many others that I just can't think of right now. I think there's enough in the fourth book right now. All of these containers have deep roots in mythology, but I would like to liken all these to the idea that Harry himself is a container. He contains a piece of Voldemort's soul. He also contains the potential to destroy Voldemort. I am also reminded of the origin of the Holy Grail--the cup used by Christ in the Last Supper. Christ says that the cup is a vessel for his blood, and they should drink from it in his remembrance. He also likens his eventual sacrifice to a cup, asking God in the Garden of Gethsemane to let the cup pass from him. In Deathly Hallows we finally see Harry as a Christ figure, dying voluntarily to save everyone. The entire walk to the Forbidden Forest is like his Garden of Gethsemane, and just as a multitude of angels came to comfort Jesus, Harry can call his parents, Sirius, and Remus to comfort him. And, of course, he has to open the Snitch. I know I got all Biblical with this, but I think Rowling pulls as much from the Bible as she does from Greco-Roman and Arthurian mythology. The point, that I've rather diverged from, is that all the vessel/cup imagery leads to the idea of Harry being a vessel. Wow, angelcakes. Just... wow. I hadn't thought about Harry as a container himself, but it makes a lot of sense. I do think Harry can be seen as a Christ-figure, but I also think JKR was mixing a lot of traditions (mythological and Biblical). In fact, I was one of the people convinced Harry would be traveling "beyond the veil" in the last book (before we got to read it, of course!) because of his white stag patronus, which has roots in Arthurian legend (a white hart signaled the start of a quest), Celtic mythology (where it signaled that the curtain between this world and the next was very thin), and Christianity (where early Christians used it to symbolize Christ, especially in a time when they couldn't openly worship). We'll get into that later on, too. -------------------- |
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Feb 9 2009, 10:54 PM
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 19 Joined: 2:10pm September 8, 2006 |
QUOTE(twiddlethosedials @ Feb 4 2009, 03:51 PM)
Minor nitpicking and then on to the actual analysis. I don't think there is a professor at Hogwarts named Cassandra, Sybil Trelawny's grandmother was named Cassandra (obviously in reference to the prophet and priestess of Apollo that predicted the fall of Troy), but that was her grandmother. While a lot of her names and creatures originate in greco-roman myth, I think in regards to one theme in particular, she deviates. Free will and destiny. I think that she makes a strong case for choices in the books, something that I think is pretty absent from greco-roman myth. There is no real sense of destiny in the books, so much as a sense of responsibility and vengeance that drives harry. He is compelled by prophecy or a sense of fate. -------------------- How many Gryffindors does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
3. Harry to do it, and Ron and Hermione to stand there and tell him to be careful. |
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Feb 10 2009, 11:52 AM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 100 Joined: 10:20am March 6, 2008 Location: Alabama |
QUOTE(Aduende @ Feb 9 2009, 10:54 PM) Minor nitpicking and then on to the actual analysis. I don't think there is a professor at Hogwarts named Cassandra, Sybil Trelawny's grandmother was named Cassandra (obviously in reference to the prophet and priestess of Apollo that predicted the fall of Troy), but that was her grandmother. However, the name Sybil (as in Sybil Trelawny) is taken from the Greek (via Latin) word sibyl, which meant prophetess. The most famous sibyl is Cassandra, but there are many other sibyls running around in Greco-Roman mythology. -------------------- Ron and angelcakes: Fans of bacon sandwiches since 1991.
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Feb 10 2009, 10:31 PM
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Mischievous Manager Posts: 5,347 Joined: 9:14am February 16, 2006 Location: Behind the sofa, watching Doctor Who |
QUOTE(angelcakes @ Feb 10 2009, 09:52 AM) QUOTE(Aduende @ Feb 9 2009, 10:54 PM) Minor nitpicking and then on to the actual analysis. I don't think there is a professor at Hogwarts named Cassandra, Sybil Trelawny's grandmother was named Cassandra (obviously in reference to the prophet and priestess of Apollo that predicted the fall of Troy), but that was her grandmother. However, the name Sybil (as in Sybil Trelawny) is taken from the Greek (via Latin) word sibyl, which meant prophetess. The most famous sibyl is Cassandra, but there are many other sibyls running around in Greco-Roman mythology.  Of course I meant Sybil, not Cassandra, though angelcakes is right that it's probably significant that Sybil's grandmother is a Cassandra. That she was the most famous sibyl is kind of interesting. I wonder if JKR did that on purpose - picked the "legitimate" sibyl to be the ancestor of the phony Sybil. What I find most interesting about Trelawney is that she is a blind seer in a couple of different ways. First, her glasses seem impossibly thick, so in the physical sense. But also in the sense that she's only really "Seeing" when she's completely unaware (blind) to having done so. Blind seers are a familiar idea in mythology - Teiresias (sp?) was blinded by the gods for knowing/telling their secrets if I am remembering correctly. (My "Hero and the Myth" class was a long time ago!) The concept's even been parodied (Old Mother Dismass in Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" books - who answers questions you haven't asked yet, and so on). Was it Odin who plucked out one of his own eyes to gain knowledge? I love that JKR's twist on this is that Trelawney doesn't really know what it is that she sees. The things she claims to see tend to be pretty farfetched (how many times is Harry's death going to happen, lady?). But the few things she sees that are real, she doesn't remember. -------------------- |
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Feb 12 2009, 02:44 PM
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter  Posts: 2,011 Joined: 3:59pm May 15, 2008 Location: Sunny Phoenix, Arizona("It's a Dry Heat!")  |
Interesting discussion so far, everyone! I'm flitting in here for a little cross-pollination, and besides, I'm a sucker for a good mythology discussion!
This post has been edited by Fricka: Feb 12 2009, 02:47 PM -------------------- "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phoenix avatar courtesy of ofenjen; thanks to atschpe for help |
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Feb 12 2009, 04:17 PM
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Newest Housekeeper at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 736 Joined: 4:41pm September 14, 2006 Location: looking for lost braincells in the L&S Broom Closet |
I've always been fascinated with JKR's use of myths and folktales. Once I'm aware of a given example, it helps me understand JKR's purpose - either in delineating character, or extending a motif or theme.
QUOTE(Fricka @ Feb 12 2009, 02:44 PM) [*]I am going to take a different approach to the previous posters, as I am in awe of all the detail that has been given about the symbology of the Goblet of Fire. I just want to comment that JKR takes well known mythological aspects and tends to tweak them in her own way. [*]For example, in the first book, we got Centaurs [. . .] And one cool connection is that the original mythological Centaurs, like JKR's, were militant and uncompromising. While they tend to be portrayed as enemies of man in mythology, JKR gives us reasons why they so abhor humankind. I like that. Not only does that present an alternative view of these figures, but the alteration underscores JKR's themes of tolerance/understanding and the consequences of one's choices. Fricka, your question about the dragon is awesome, but I will leave that for others to delight in, and move on to... QUOTE(Fricka @ Feb 12 2009, 02:44 PM) [. . .] I do wonder about the significance of the names Filius and Pomona, for example. Anyone know what those names mean, and whether they are a good match for Professors Flitwick and Sprout? I know "filius" means "son," but am not sure how that specifically relates to Flitwick. A son of Hogwarts, perhaps? When I think about it, there are many sons (and daughters) of Hogwarts who are true to and fight for its values. Pomona, though, is a goddess of fruit trees and gardens, and like a good hostess, presides over abundance. That seems appropriate for the Herbology professor and head of Hufflepuff House (I wonder how near her office is to the kitchens)! twiddle, you said: QUOTE What I find most interesting about Trelawney is that she is a blind seer in a couple of different ways. First, her glasses seem impossibly thick, so in the physical sense. But also in the sense that she's only really "Seeing" when she's completely unaware (blind) to having done so. Blind seers are a familiar idea in mythology - Teiresias (sp?) was blinded by the gods for knowing/telling their secrets if I am remembering correctly. (My "Hero and the Myth" class was a long time ago!) The concept's even been parodied (Old Mother Dismass in Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" books - who answers questions you haven't asked yet, and so on). Was it Odin who plucked out one of his own eyes to gain knowledge? I don't know about Odin (although I would dearly love to learn about him), but in Greek mythology the mortal Oedipus plucked out his eyes when he learned Teiresias had correctly identified him (Oedipus) as having committed murder and incest, thus bringing a plague upon his people. Oedipus had scoffed at Teiresias, but when he learned he had committed these crimes, he gouged out his eyes as a symbol of both his figurative blindness, and his new insight into himself. It's a wonderful double image, the idea of being blind, yet seeing; and seeing, yet being blind. I think the idea is that sometimes, in order to gain true understanding, we need to let go of any assumptions or beliefs which might block revelation. Trelawney perhaps is so focused on the trappings of Divination (tea leaves, etc.) that that keeps her from "seeing" more--??? Trelawney's "impossibly thick" glasses is a tantalizing image, and makes me think of a crystal ball, in which the fog swirls, completely obscuring any knowledge to be found within. And, she herself seems to be in a permanent fog; those glasses seem to physically distance her from everyone else. Well, that was fun!  Can't wait to come back here again and read what other thoughts people have!
This post has been edited by merrythought: Feb 12 2009, 04:21 PM -------------------- Summer's lease hath all too short a date... |
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