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Nicholas Flamel and the infamous stone
Moose_Starr
post Nov 17 2009, 11:49 AM
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After being at Hogwarts for only a few months, Harry learns about the existence of the Sorcerer's or Philosopher's Stone, in fact he reads a brief text about it on his chocolate frog card on the Hogwarts Express. We all know that it was Nicholas Flamel that invented this stone, with some assistance from Albus Dumbledore.
What is curious is why Nicholas Flamel decided to create the stone, what purpose did he have in mind? The Stone is something that alchemists have theorized about for centuries and have endlessly tried to create, so Flamel didnt invent anything, but obviously the actual creation of this stone is not easy. We are told that, at that time, his is the only stone known to exist in the world.
The stone can change any metal into gold, and can also produce an Elixir that makes a person immortal. Which of these was Flamel hoping to achieve when he set about working on the Stone? With Dumbledore as an associate, we can assume that he had no malicious intentions. But, he clearly did create the Stone, because by the time Harry receives his Owl of acceptance to Hogwarts, it's already being guarded first at Gringotts and then at Hogwarts itself. So where are the benefits for Flamel, creator and owner of the only known Philosophers Stone? The Trio dont know who he his, which implies that Flamel wasnt famous despite his incredible achievements. Neither could he have been exceptionally rich because he's unknown.
It is of course possible that Flamel wanted to try creating the Stone simply for the challenge, or to demonstrate his abilities as a great alchemist. Maybe neither gold or immortality interested him at all (although he is age 665 and has plainly been drinking his Elixir of life) But, regardless of his purpose in creating the stone, the fact remains that he lived and died in relative obscurity, and the rare mention of the Stone appears on Dumbledore's frog card.

Why did Nicholas Flamel want to create a Philosophers Stone, and why was he not well known for such a remarkable achievement?


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roonwit
post Nov 18 2009, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Nov 17 2009, 04:49 PM) *
After being at Hogwarts for only a few months, Harry learns about the existence of the Sorcerer's or Philosopher's Stone, in fact he reads a brief text about it on his chocolate frog card on the Hogwarts Express. We all know that it was Nicholas Flamel that invented this stone, with some assistance from Albus Dumbledore.
"Invented" is the wrong word. Flamel certainly created this particular stone but there is nothing to say that it was unique, indeed Hermione's book says it is "the only stone currently in existence" implying there were probably others at some point, and Flamel's may not have been the first. Also Dumbledore couldn't have helped create the stone unless Flamel and his wife found some other way of living his first 500 years or so until Dumbledore was born.
QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Nov 17 2009, 04:49 PM) *
What is curious is why Nicholas Flamel decided to create the stone, what purpose did he have in mind?
Probably the obvious purposes of wealth and long life, perhaps also with the recognition of his own skill at being able to create such a stone. As he was enjoying a quiet life with his wife in Devon, according to Hermione's book, it seems that long life had become his primary aim, because he clearly doesn't need vast wealth for that.
QUOTE(Moose_Starr @ Nov 17 2009, 04:49 PM) *
But, regardless of his purpose in creating the stone, the fact remains that he lived and died in relative obscurity, and the rare mention of the Stone appears on Dumbledore's frog card.
Flamel was famous enough to be worth mentioning on Dumbledore's frog card, but 600 years is a long time and he could easily have desired to be much more wealthy and famous in the early days, and later decided they weren't important to him. Even the attractions of long life must have been waning somewhat, because Dumbledore was able to persuade him to give them up to reduce the chance of Voldemort returning.


This post has been edited by roonwit: Nov 18 2009, 05:38 PM


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Butterfly_Boy
post Nov 20 2009, 07:57 AM
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Flamel was famous enough to be worth mentioning on Dumbledore's frog card, but 600 years is a long time and he could easily have desired to be much more wealthy and famous in the early days, and later decided they weren't important to him. Even the attractions of long life must have been waning somewhat, because Dumbledore was able to persuade him to give them up to reduce the chance of Voldemort returning.

In all of the 7 books, You-Know-Who seek tirelessly for immortality. Even in the times before Harry is born, when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts school he sought knowledge of horcruxes. Why did he not seek out Nicholas Flamel, or speak of him? He has achieved what Tom Riddle most desires! Why does Riddle-Voldemort not idolise the man or seek advise from this wizard?


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roonwit
post Nov 20 2009, 11:17 AM
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QUOTE(Butterfly_Boy @ Nov 20 2009, 12:57 PM) *
In all of the 7 books, You-Know-Who seek tirelessly for immortality. Even in the times before Harry is born, when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts school he sought knowledge of horcruxes. Why did he not seek out Nicholas Flamel, or speak of him? He has achieved what Tom Riddle most desires! Why does Riddle-Voldemort not idolise the man or seek advise from this wizard?
I think Dumbledore explains this correctly in HBP. Voldemort didn't like the idea of having to rely on a stone that could break or be tarnished. Also stealing Flamel's stone would only help him for a limited time, to use that solution permanently he would have to learn how to make his own stone and Flamel, who was close to Dumbledore, would be unlikely to do so.


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Wendall
post Nov 20 2009, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE(roonwit @ Nov 20 2009, 05:17 PM) *
QUOTE(Butterfly_Boy @ Nov 20 2009, 12:57 PM) *
In all of the 7 books, You-Know-Who seek tirelessly for immortality. Even in the times before Harry is born, when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts school he sought knowledge of horcruxes. Why did he not seek out Nicholas Flamel, or speak of him? He has achieved what Tom Riddle most desires! Why does Riddle-Voldemort not idolise the man or seek advise from this wizard?
I think Dumbledore explains this correctly in HBP. Voldemort didn't like the idea of having to rely on a stone that could break or be tarnished. Also stealing Flamel's stone would only help him for a limited time, to use that solution permanently he would have to learn how to make his own stone and Flamel, who was close to Dumbledore, would be unlikely to do so.


Also, wouldn't having a philosopher's stone still leave Voldemort vulnerable to being killed by an enemy. A stone would prevent death from old age, but would it prevent death from an AK, or some other attack? The horcruxes meant that he wouldn't be really killed even if an enemy attacked and defeated him.
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roonwit
post Nov 21 2009, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE(Wendall @ Nov 21 2009, 12:13 AM) *
Also, wouldn't having a philosopher's stone still leave Voldemort vulnerable to being killed by an enemy. A stone would prevent death from old age, but would it prevent death from an AK, or some other attack? The horcruxes meant that he wouldn't be really killed even if an enemy attacked and defeated him.
That is certainly possible, though I don't think we are ever told what the stone would do in that case, or how exactly it extends life. But even if the Elixir of Life does protect against an AK, each AK is likely to drain whatever extra life force the elixir provides so it is unlikely to protect against repeated attacks unless more elixir is drunk to restore the protection. I am imagining the elixir tops up the life force of a person (or maybe even overfills it) so that anything that causes death, disease or injury can be overcome, similarly to how diary Riddle was able almost to fashion a completely new body by leaching Ginny's life force.


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Hannibal Granger
post Nov 22 2009, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE
After being at Hogwarts for only a few months, Harry learns about the existence of the Sorcerer's or Philosopher's Stone, in fact he reads a brief text about it on his chocolate frog card on the Hogwarts Express. We all know that it was Nicholas Flamel that invented this stone, with some assistance from Albus Dumbledore.


At the time Dumbledore was born, Flamel was over 500 years old. It's highly likely he'd perfected the Stone previously.

Dumbledore was a (nearly) unique talent, a once-in-innumerable-generations power. I imagine Flamel (having endured some tedious centuries with no equal) was glad to find someone he could mentor, to some degree. It's more likely Flamel helped Dumbledore with, say, the uses of dragon's blood than that Dumbledore helped Flamel with the Stone.

QUOTE
The Stone is something that alchemists have theorized about for centuries and have endlessly tried to create, so Flamel didnt invent anything, but obviously the actual creation of this stone is not easy.


Flamel's legend exists outside Potterverse. There it is said he and his wife deciphered the recipe from a small book, the work of one Abraham, the Jew. So, yes, it is true Flamel invented nothing, but recapitulated. Still...

QUOTE
Why did Nicholas Flamel want to create a Philosophers Stone, and why was he not well known for such a remarkable achievement?


I suppose he created it to gain long life, and an endless stream of gold. Obscurity supports that, but fame is opposed. Had Flamel been famously rich, then he'd have had to spend his considerable fortune and long life defending his life and fortune.

Fame is not a blessing; it's a curse. This, from Butterfly Boy is an example

QUOTE
In all of the 7 books, You-Know-Who seek tirelessly for immortality. Even in the times before Harry is born, when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts school he sought knowledge of horcruxes. Why did he not seek out Nicholas Flamel, or speak of him? He has achieved what Tom Riddle most desires! Why does Riddle-Voldemort not idolise the man or seek advise from this wizard?


Who wants 6 centuries of life dealing with an endless stream of psychopaths? Riddle didn't seek Flamel, because Flamel didn't show himself.

QUOTE
A stone would prevent death from old age, but would it prevent death from an AK, or some other attack?


We don't know.

IMO, the Stone offers a long, quiet life (inferred from how Nicholas and Pernelle lived). It does not offer invincibility, which is what Riddle needed in furtherance of his personal, peculiar pursuit of happiness.
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Laura W
post Nov 22 2009, 12:08 PM
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QUOTE(Hannibal Granger @ Nov 22 2009, 08:31 AM) *
QUOTE
After being at Hogwarts for only a few months, Harry learns about the existence of the Sorcerer's or Philosopher's Stone, in fact he reads a brief text about it on his chocolate frog card on the Hogwarts Express. We all know that it was Nicholas Flamel that invented this stone, with some assistance from Albus Dumbledore.


At the time Dumbledore was born, Flamel was over 500 years old. It's highly likely he'd perfected the Stone previously.

Dumbledore was a (nearly) unique talent, a once-in-innumerable-generations power. I imagine Flamel (having endured some tedious centuries with no equal) was glad to find someone he could mentor, to some degree. It's more likely Flamel helped Dumbledore with, say, the uses of dragon's blood than that Dumbledore helped Flamel with the Stone.




What you say is very logical but, looking at the exact wording and order of wording on the chocolate frog card in PS, it really looks like Jo meant to impart the information that Dumbledore and Flamel worked together on alchemy specifically. (The uses of dragon's blood were DD's alone.)

Chapter 13, p. 160, Raincoast:
(Harry): "I've found him! I've found Flamel! I told you I'd read the name somewhere before, I read it on the train coming here - listen to this: 'Professor Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood and his work on alchemy with his partner Nicolas Flamel.'!"

Remember, this is Jo's first book and, in my opinion, this wording was not quite thought out. Why would the great alchemist Nicholas Flamel - as Hermoine says on the next page, "the only known maker of the Philosopher's Stone" -take on a wizard 500 years younger than he as a "partner"? Don't make sense.

I do agree with the poster above that the more logical explanation is that Flamel recognized the genius of the young Albus and chose to mentor him. The author more correctly should not have worded it as she did on the chocolate frog card to make it look like Flamel and Dumbledore were somehow equal in their alchemy accomplishments. Or rather, when it came to the work on the Philosopher's Stone.

"Dumbledore is particularly famous for ... his work on alchemy with his partner Nicolas Flamel." (Chapter Six, p.77, Raincoast) Hmm. His work with his partner on the Philosopher's Stone? Again, couldn't be. But undoubtedly, over the years, the extraordinary Dumbledore did work with his mentor on other alchemy stuff and probably helped him immeasurably in that field. As no other wizard or witch would have been able to.

As I see it. (SMILE)




Laura


re Dumbledore:
"He is my character and as my character, I have the right to know what I know about him and say what I say about him. There you go."
- JKR (Toronto Press Conference, CBC, Oct.22, 2007)




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Wendall
post Nov 23 2009, 07:25 AM
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QUOTE(Laura W @ Nov 22 2009, 05:08 PM) *
QUOTE(Hannibal Granger @ Nov 22 2009, 08:31 AM) *
QUOTE
After being at Hogwarts for only a few months, Harry learns about the existence of the Sorcerer's or Philosopher's Stone, in fact he reads a brief text about it on his chocolate frog card on the Hogwarts Express. We all know that it was Nicholas Flamel that invented this stone, with some assistance from Albus Dumbledore.


At the time Dumbledore was born, Flamel was over 500 years old. It's highly likely he'd perfected the Stone previously.

Dumbledore was a (nearly) unique talent, a once-in-innumerable-generations power. I imagine Flamel (having endured some tedious centuries with no equal) was glad to find someone he could mentor, to some degree. It's more likely Flamel helped Dumbledore with, say, the uses of dragon's blood than that Dumbledore helped Flamel with the Stone.




What you say is very logical but, looking at the exact wording and order of wording on the chocolate frog card in PS, it really looks like Jo meant to impart the information that Dumbledore and Flamel worked together on alchemy specifically. (The uses of dragon's blood were DD's alone.)

Chapter 13, p. 160, Raincoast:
(Harry): "I've found him! I've found Flamel! I told you I'd read the name somewhere before, I read it on the train coming here - listen to this: 'Professor Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood and his work on alchemy with his partner Nicolas Flamel.'!"

Remember, this is Jo's first book and, in my opinion, this wording was not quite thought out. Why would the great alchemist Nicholas Flamel - as Hermoine says on the next page, "the only known maker of the Philosopher's Stone" -take on a wizard 500 years younger than he as a "partner"? Don't make sense.

I do agree with the poster above that the more logical explanation is that Flamel recognized the genius of the young Albus and chose to mentor him. The author more correctly should not have worded it as she did on the chocolate frog card to make it look like Flamel and Dumbledore were somehow equal in their alchemy accomplishments. Or rather, when it came to the work on the Philosopher's Stone.

"Dumbledore is particularly famous for ... his work on alchemy with his partner Nicolas Flamel." (Chapter Six, p.77, Raincoast) Hmm. His work with his partner on the Philosopher's Stone? Again, couldn't be. But undoubtedly, over the years, the extraordinary Dumbledore did work with his mentor on other alchemy stuff and probably helped him immeasurably in that field. As no other wizard or witch would have been able to.

As I see it.


Although alchemy isn't just the creation of the philosopher's stone. It has many aims and purposes.

Wikipedia says "Alchemy is both a philosophy and a practice with an aim of achieving ultimate wisdom as well as immortality, involving the improvement of the alchemist as well as the making of several substances described as possessing unusual properties. The practical aspect of alchemy generated the basics of modern inorganic chemistry, namely concerning procedures, equipment and the identification and use of many current substances."

So Flamel may have mastered part of alchemy, ie the making of the stone, but may still have needed/wanted help with other aspects of it.
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Hannibal Granger
post Nov 23 2009, 08:37 AM
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Laura W:

What Wendall said. Presumably, there are alchemical issues beyond the Stone. Wiki says as much, fwiw:

QUOTE
The best-known goals of the alchemists were the transmutation of common metals into gold (called chrysopoeia) or silver (less well known is plant alchemy, or "spagyric"); the creation of a "panacea", or the elixir of life, a remedy that, it was supposed, would cure all diseases and prolong life indefinitely; and the discovery of a universal solvent.[6] Although these were not the only uses for the discipline, they were the ones most documented and well-known.


Evidently, there were psycho/spiritual components as well as chemical:

QUOTE
The double origin of Alchemy in Greek philosophy as well as in Egyptian and Mesopotamian technology set, from the start, a double approach: the technological, operative one, which Marie-Louise von Franz call extravert, and the mystic, contemplative, psychological one, which von Franz names as introvert. These are not mutually exclusive, but complementary instead, as meditation requires practice in the real world, and conversely.[8]

Several early alchemists, such as Zosimos of Panopolis, are recorded as viewing alchemy as a spiritual discipline, and, in the Middle Ages, metaphysical aspects increasingly came to be viewed as the true foundation of the art.


This guy had a Frog Card too, iirc

QUOTE
In his Alchemical Catechism, Paracelsus clearly denotes that his usage of the metals was a symbol:

Q. When the Philosophers speak of gold and silver, from which they extract their matter, are we to suppose that they refer to the vulgar gold and silver?

A. By no means; vulgar silver and gold are dead, while those of the Philosophers are full of life.


Anyway, we may both be right; Nick and Al worked on alchemy, but not the Stone. BTW: all the above is excerpted from the Wiki article Alchemy, in the English section.


This post has been edited by Hannibal Granger: Nov 23 2009, 08:39 AM
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