The Night Harry's Parents Were Killed, Comments about the revised page? |
 Mar 22 2006, 01:00 AM
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Searching for the 'Invisible Book of Invisibility'  Posts: 590 Joined: 8:44pm January 4, 2005 Location: Tossing garden gnomes   |
Hi,
I have revised an older page over at the Lexicon that lays out the events the night Harry's parents were killed. Do you have questions that the pages doesn't acknowledge? Do you have theories about the mysteries remaining? URL: The Night Harry's Parents Were Killed -------------------- |
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Mar 22 2006, 05:52 PM
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#2
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 2 Joined: 5:43pm March 22, 2006 Location: New York, NY USA |
Some notes:
• It says in that article that we don't know what happened to Lily and James's bodies. Well, we do have some information: according to Harry at the end of HBP, he's going to visit the graves of his parents at Godric's Hollow, so, we can safely assume that Lily and James were buried somewhere in Godric's Hollow (in a graveyard? maybe under their house?) This raises some more questions, however. Who buried them? Who went back to get the bodies? How does Harry know where they are buried, or that they are buried at all? • Lily and James's wands: is it possible that they were destroyed with the house? We know that magical people are protected from minor injuries, but how about magical objects? We've seen Ron's wand broken by the Whomping Willow in COS, so we know that wands can be destroyed, and easily. • "Many fans believe that Snape was the one who told Dumbledore that Voldemort intended to kill the Potter's child." So does this mean that Snape told Dumbledore the whole of the prophecy, or that he ommited some parts? -------------------- --Julian
( travisemergency.com ) |
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Mar 22 2006, 06:24 PM
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#3
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Perusing the Magical Menagerie Posts: 86 Joined: 6:13pm July 13, 2005 |
QUOTE(Julian Bennett Holmes @ Mar 22 2006, 10:52 PM) [snapback]753261[/snapback] Some notes: • It says in that article that we don't know what happened to Lily and James's bodies. Well, we do have some information: according to Harry at the end of HBP, he's going to visit the graves of his parents at Godric's Hollow, so, we can safely assume that Lily and James were buried somewhere in Godric's Hollow (in a graveyard? maybe under their house?) This raises some more questions, however. Who buried them? Who went back to get the bodies? How does Harry know where they are buried, or that they are buried at all? • Lily and James's wands: is it possible that they were destroyed with the house? We know that magical people are protected from minor injuries, but how about magical objects? We've seen Ron's wand broken by the Whomping Willow in COS, so we know that wands can be destroyed, and easily. • "Many fans believe that Snape was the one who told Dumbledore that Voldemort intended to kill the Potter's child." So does this mean that Snape told Dumbledore the whole of the prophecy, or that he ommited some parts? As for the first question, I would assume that muggles buried them. I envision this: the muggle police arrive, they sort through the wreckage, pull out 2 bodies. I think it is likely that the Potters were not native to Godric's Hollow. I mean, if you're going into hiding, you go somewhere new, right? Not your hometown probably. So the muggles don't know much about them because they haven't been there long. Plus, the first thing policemen do is look for ID - James certainly would have nothing a muggle would recognize and while it is possible that Lily has some kind of ID, it's probably from before she went to school, when she lived as a muggle. So the muggles don't know who they are, or where they came from. They have no way of tracking their living relatives down or finding anyone who knew them. Probably they would just bury them in the local cemetary when no one came to claim the bodies. It's possible also that wizards came and claimed the bodies, but you would think that someone would have mentioned this to Harry. Or maybe they did and the wizards had them buried in Godric's Hollow and told Harry that. If no one went to claim the bodies, Harry might just be making an educated guess. After all, even if his parents aren't actually buried there, he would probably want to see the lot or whatever is left of the house. I think the idea that the wands were destroyed when the house collapsed is a good one. Even if they weren't completely destroyed, they probably wouldn't have been salvaged by any muggles dealing with the remains of the house. As for the last question, Dumbledore heard the whole prophecy since it was told to him. I believe that Snape was the spy that heard the first 2 parts of the prophecy and passed them on to LV. The info he gave Dumbledore later was that LV was going after Harry, not Neville. |
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Mar 24 2006, 11:46 AM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 2 Joined: 5:43pm March 22, 2006 Location: New York, NY USA |
QUOTE As for the first question, I would assume that muggles buried them. I envision this: the muggle police arrive, they sort through the wreckage, pull out 2 bodies. I think it is likely that the Potters were not native to Godric's Hollow. I mean, if you're going into hiding, you go somewhere new, right? Not your hometown probably. So the muggles don't know much about them because they haven't been there long. Plus, the first thing policemen do is look for ID - James certainly would have nothing a muggle would recognize and while it is possible that Lily has some kind of ID, it's probably from before she went to school, when she lived as a muggle. So the muggles don't know who they are, or where they came from. They have no way of tracking their living relatives down or finding anyone who knew them. Probably they would just bury them in the local cemetary when no one came to claim the bodies. It's possible also that wizards came and claimed the bodies, but you would think that someone would have mentioned this to Harry. Or maybe they did and the wizards had them buried in Godric's Hollow and told Harry that. If no one went to claim the bodies, Harry might just be making an educated guess. After all, even if his parents aren't actually buried there, he would probably want to see the lot or whatever is left of the house. Maybe Hagrid buried them during that mysterious "missing day" in there? -------------------- --Julian
( travisemergency.com ) |
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Mar 24 2006, 01:10 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 151 Joined: 4:05pm November 13, 2005 Location: Almost a grown up |
You wrote a great page. It really pulls together a lot of key information. I have some questions about the dialog that you included
QUOTE Man’s voice: "Lily, take Harry and go! It’s him! Go! Run! I’ll hold him off ------" Much of this is taken from dreams/voices that Harry experienced when he encountered dementors. In the Potter world, how reliable are these experiences as factual accounts of what happened? I do not recall whether Harry received any feedback on their reliability as being factually accurate from anyone else. As you note later, he described some of it to Remus Lupin, but Lupin did not really confirm that it could have been what happened. This is especially true for the voices that Harry heard in Chapter 9 of PoA, where no names are mentioned. We are left to accept Harry's interpretation, that he is hearing the events at Godric's Hollow. Has JKR ever confirmed this, or is there anything other information that I am missing? How does this tally with the idea that Harry never witnessed the deaths of his parents because he was too young?
Lily goes to Harry's room where he is in his cot [crib]. According to Voldemort, James died "straight-backed and proud." (GF34) The sounds of someone stumbling from a room -- a door bursting open -- a cackle of high-pitched laughter -- (PA12) Lily’s voice: "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!" Voldemort: "Stand aside you silly girl … stand aside now." Lily: "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead ----- " Lily: "Not Harry! Please … have mercy … have mercy… " Harry hears a shrill voice laughing and the woman screaming (PA9, PA12). Then Harry remembers a blinding green flash and a burning pain in his forehead, then a high, cold cruel laugh. Voldemort had used the Avada Kedavra Curse on Lily and Harry. -------------------- Taking time off from studying, parenting and life's chores.
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Mar 24 2006, 10:32 PM
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Searching for the 'Invisible Book of Invisibility' Posts: 590 Joined: 8:44pm January 4, 2005 Location: Tossing garden gnomes |
NewToThis, I will talk this over with Steve, but I am inclined to take this at face value. What he "hears" under the influence of the Dementors jives with everything we know about that night. No one -- not Lupin, not Dumbledore -- has even hinted that this type of memory is distorted in some way. Jo has never talked about this (she hasn't been asked about it either).
I don't see a conflict related to Jo's Thestral/death explanation because he did not *see* the murders, he hears them. Here's what Jo says on her websitez; QUOTE Yes, I can, definitely. That is a really good question, because it enables me to clear up a point. The letters that I’ve had about the Thestrals! Everyone has said to me that Harry saw people die before could see the Thestrals. Just to clear this up once and for all, this was not a mistake. I would be the first to say that I have made mistakes in the books, but this was not a mistake. I really thought this one through. Harry did not see his parents die. He was one year old and in a cot at the time. Although you never see that scene, I wrote it and then cut it. He didn’t see it; he was too young to appreciate it. When you find out about the Thestrals, you find that you can see them only when you really understand death in a broader sense, when you really know what it means. Someone said that Harry saw Quirrell die, but that is not true. He was unconscious when Quirrell died, in Philosopher’s Stone. He did not know until he came around that Quirrell had died when Voldemort left his body. Then you have Cedric. With Cedric, fair point. Harry had just seen Cedric die when he got back into the carriages to go back to Hogsmeade station. I thought about that at the end of Goblet, because I have known from the word go what was drawing the carriages. From Chamber of Secrets, in which there are carriages drawn by invisible things, I have known what was there. I decided that it would be an odd thing to do right at the end of a book. Anyone who has suffered a bereavement knows that there is the immediate shock but that it takes a little while to appreciate fully that you will never see that person again. Until that had happened, I did not think that Harry could see the Thestrals. That means that when he goes back, he saw these spooky things. It set the tone for Phoenix, which is a much darker book. She always uses the word "see." Harry couldn't have seen Lily's murder from his cot but he would have heard it. This post has been edited by LisaQQQ: Mar 24 2006, 10:46 PM -------------------- |
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Mar 24 2006, 10:45 PM
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Monster Book Stacker Posts: 366 Joined: 10:09pm July 23, 2005 Location: Michigan |
Maybe the house is like Siruis unplotable unseen to muggles eyes, Wormtail could of told DD and Hagrid how to get to it besides LV. All we ever hear is "Godric's Hollow" we don't here like we did the key to get to Sirius's #12 Grimwold? or #4 Pivet Dr. maybe it's something like #7 Godric's Hollow and then the house can be seen/entered so Harry could go there and find the house the way it was when his parents were killed look how long Siruis house was empty and not seen? just a thought
-------------------- It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live
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Mar 24 2006, 10:52 PM
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Searching for the 'Invisible Book of Invisibility' Posts: 590 Joined: 8:44pm January 4, 2005 Location: Tossing garden gnomes |
Interesting thought, candyf66. I can't think of anything that would contradict that.
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Mar 25 2006, 04:57 AM
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever  Posts: 9,327 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
The bodies of Lily and James were there because Sirius mentions them in his "I as good as killed them" speech half way through chapter 19 of PoA. I always assumed that Sirius and Hagrid buried them - it wouldn't take long judging by how fast Slughorn filled Aragog's grave.
It is a very good question as to how Hagrid was able to find the house and rescue Harry given that it was protected by a Fidelius charm, and only those that Wormtail told directly knew the precise location of the Potters (FAQ poll answer), which means that Hagrid couldn't have been in on the secret as no-one knew that Wormtail was the real secret keeper. I also notice that the days of the week go Monday, Tuesday, Thursday. --------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Mar 25 2006, 11:20 AM
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Monster Book Stacker Posts: 366 Joined: 10:09pm July 23, 2005 Location: Michigan |
QUOTE(roonwit @ Mar 25 2006, 09:57 AM) [snapback]756232[/snapback] The bodies of Lily and James were there because Sirius mentions them in his "I as good as killed them" speech half way through chapter 19 of PoA. I always assumed that Sirius and Hagrid buried them - it wouldn't take long judging by how fast Slughorn filled Aragog's grave. It is a very good question as to how Hagrid was able to find the house and rescue Harry given that it was protected by a Fidelius charm, and only those that Wormtail told directly knew the precise location of the Potters (FAQ poll answer), which means that Hagrid couldn't have been in on the secret as no-one knew that Wormtail was the real secret keeper. I also notice that the days of the week go Monday, Tuesday, Thursday. But think back to what Harry was told about #12 he read it on a piece of paper written by DD moody didn't tell him or any of the other Phoenix members the secret keeper (DD) had to tell Harry as simply as it being written down, So before wormtail turned traitor he could of told or written it down to DD, Hagrid and Sirius. Also Sirius did know that wormtail was the secret keeper lupin just assumed it was Sirius since him and James where best friends wormtail would of told DD since he was the head of the order. -------------------- It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live
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Mar 25 2006, 12:55 PM
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever Posts: 9,327 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(candyf66 @ Mar 25 2006, 04:20 PM) [snapback]756453[/snapback] But think back to what Harry was told about #12 he read it on a piece of paper written by DD moody didn't tell him or any of the other Phoenix members the secret keeper (DD) had to tell Harry as simply as it being written down, So before wormtail turned traitor he could of told or written it down to DD, Hagrid and Sirius. Also Sirius did know that wormtail was the secret keeper lupin just assumed it was Sirius since him and James where best friends wormtail would of told DD since he was the head of the order. This is maybe not the thread to discuss these things but in my opinion reading a note doesn't constitute being told directly by Wormtail (hence it contradicts Jo's comments in the FAQ poll even if it is magically possible). Also using a note doesn't fully solve the problem of concealing the switch of secret keepers, because you have to get the note to the right person securely, so you can't use owls which, as we have seen, can be intercepted, so it would have to be carried by someone who would then know who the real secret keeper was (and Sirius can't carry the note because he is supposed to be the secret keeper and thus would tell the person directly).
-------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Mar 25 2006, 02:21 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 11 Joined: 9:12pm September 6, 2005 |
QUOTE(Julian Bennett Holmes @ Mar 22 2006, 10:52 PM) [snapback]753261[/snapback] Some notes: • It says in that article that we don't know what happened to Lily and James's bodies. Well, we do have some information: according to Harry at the end of HBP, he's going to visit the graves of his parents at Godric's Hollow, so, we can safely assume that Lily and James were buried somewhere in Godric's Hollow (in a graveyard? maybe under their house?) This raises some more questions, however. Who buried them? Who went back to get the bodies? How does Harry know where they are buried, or that they are buried at all? • Lily and James's wands: is it possible that they were destroyed with the house? We know that magical people are protected from minor injuries, but how about magical objects? We've seen Ron's wand broken by the Whomping Willow in COS, so we know that wands can be destroyed, and easily. • "Many fans believe that Snape was the one who told Dumbledore that Voldemort intended to kill the Potter's child." So does this mean that Snape told Dumbledore the whole of the prophecy, or that he ommited some parts? I think Harry just assumes that his parent's are buried there in Godric's Hollow. We don't know for sure. In our travels with Harry he has never come across any information that would tell him that they were buried there. I also don't buy the bit about the muggles dealing with the bodies. If the Potters were under the fidilus charm, then the muggles would not be able to see it, just as they aren't able to see Privet Drive. I think a distiction needs to be made though between the Potters and #12. The Potters were being protected by the fidilus charm, not the house they were residing in as #12 was. So, perhaps the muggles could see the house, and could see it destroyed, but they would not have been able to see the bodies. JKR says that death does not break a fidilus charm. She was talking about the caster, but I think it would pertain to the castee as well. I think Hagrid surely saw the bodies when he rescued Harry, unless Dumbledore dealt with them previously. If Dumbledore did deal with them previously, why wouldn't he personally take Harry. Dumbledore must have known it to be safe though. This is where Dumbledore's spies played into the equation. They must have seen Voldemort either enter or exit the house, along with anyone accompanying him. The only logical explination for who destroyed is one of Dumbledore's spys, an idea that really doesn't make too much sense as it would cause a great deal of interest on the Muggles behalf. If Voldemort was not alone, his accompanyment may have done it, but logic would dictate that the answer is no to this as well. There would be no purpose. Pettigrew may have done it as a way to try and cast blame on someone else, but it also doesn't make sense that he would bring attention to himself. My bet is that the good side did indeed destroy the house as a way to hide something, but it would have to be someone close to Dumbledore, or a third party entirely. To hide what, though is the question as I don't think it was the bodies. Personally as far as the bodies go, I think that it is more logical that Dumbledore had something to do with it as he was unsure what exactly Voldemort, or other death eaters that were previewed to knowing the hiding spot, would do with them. I think we also must look at who knew about Godric's Hollow house, and who knew that the Potters were hiding there. I think that it is obvious that Hagrid, Dumbledore, Sirius, Voldemort, and Pettigrew knew, but who else? Snape does seem to have some type of link to the situation. Perhaps Pettigrew told him, but at this point I am unsure of this. As far as the wands go, I think that whomever dealt with the bodies also dealt with the wands. I think that it is possible that Dumbledore has them in safe keeping. I think that it is also possible that they are buried with them, but I am not sure that Dumbledore would do such a thing as he may be unsure if Voldemort's death eaters might do something with them. I think that Snape telling Dumbledore about the planned Potter assasignation is plausible, but I surely don't think that it is solid enough to be why Dumbledore trusts Snape. One other thing that I find a bit odd is that if the Potters were hidden with the fidilius charm, and not the Godric Hollow house. Dumbledore would somehow have to undo the charm, or no one would be able to see Harry later in life. -------------------- Are things really what they seem?
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Mar 25 2006, 11:55 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 1 Joined: 11:35pm March 25, 2006 |
Do we know that the Fidelius Charm physically hides the building? One may make the argument that the only way Harry saw Grimmauld Place was after having the secret revealed to him by Dumbledore. However, perhaps the secret was simply the address of the building, and the physical concealment of the building was just another one of the protections (one could only see the building if one knew its location.) A line from PA10 used in the definition of a Fidelius Charm in the Encyclopedia of Spells on the Lexicon ("As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!") leads one to believe that you could see the the home in Godric's Hollow without knowing its location. Perhaps the secret being kept was just the fact that the Potters were hiding there.
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Mar 26 2006, 01:37 PM
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever Posts: 9,327 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
The Fidelius charm conceals secrets, but will only hide buildings if that is a consequence of the secret. Thus it seems likely from what we know that Wormtail's charm didn't hide the building the Potters were hiding in, only their presence in it.
-------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Mar 26 2006, 02:08 PM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 2 Joined: 9:30pm February 24, 2006 |
Question: What happened right after Voldemort was destroyed? I'm assuming Voldemort went alone (although it is possible someone may have gone with him), but exactly how fast did people know that LV was killed? Unless someone went with Voldemort, the only living person that would know that Voldemort was destroyed would be Harry, but he's was a baby at the time. Was Harry just hanging around until someone, like Hagrid or Sirius, came by? And how did anyone know that Voldemort was destroyed? If anyone did come by all they would see would be Harry with a scar..
This post has been edited by itsMEreginaLEE: Mar 26 2006, 02:09 PM -------------------- HA! i don't get it..
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Mar 31 2006, 08:25 AM
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Rat Spleen Restocker at the Apothecary  Posts: 478 Joined: 7:23am May 19, 2005 |
In the section Sirius arrives I think there is a mistake. It says 'Sirius says he had previously arranged with James and Lily to "check on Peter" that Wednesday. When he discovered Pettigrew was missing from his hiding place, Sirius got worried and took his flying motorcycle to the house in Godric’s Hollow, where he was horrified by the destruction and death (PA19). Hagrid is still there and comforts him, and James, as Harry’s godfather, asks to take the child.'
Shouldn't that be Sirius, rather than James? -------------------- I went to the midnight reading!
 "Size is no guarantee of power. Look at Ginny." OotP Proud Member: S.Q.U.E.E, M.A.F.I.A, S.P.E.W. and The John Noe Fan Club |
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Apr 3 2006, 05:34 PM
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Perusing the Magical Menagerie Posts: 86 Joined: 8:12pm April 2, 2006 Location: i am shopping @ HOLLISTER..or..ABERCROMBI E & FITCH..or..AMERICAN EAGLE!!! |
[font=Century Gothic]well...u kno i don't kno it may be there 2 trick u..or just another..o i don't kno!!!!
-------------------- Wal-mart... do they like make walls there?
~Paris Hilton~ It's traditional for an heiress to be raised in a sheltered way. No one thinks that's true of me, but it actually was. ~Paris Hilton~  |
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Apr 24 2006, 07:33 AM
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 109 Joined: 7:14am June 12, 2005 Location: London, England  |
Hi guys, I have a question about Harry's memories
QUOTE Man’s voice: "Lily, take Harry and go! It’s him! Go! Run! I’ll hold him off ------" Lily goes to Harry's room where he is in his cot [crib]. According to Voldemort, James died "straight-backed and proud." (GF34) The sounds of someone stumbling from a room -- a door bursting open -- a cackle of high-pitched laughter -- (PA12) Lily’s voice: "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!" Voldemort: "Stand aside you silly girl … stand aside now." Lily: "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead ----- " Lily: "Not Harry! Please … have mercy … have mercy… " Harry hears a shrill voice laughing and the woman screaming (PA9, PA12). That all seems straightforward enough, but then you say QUOTE Then Harry remembers a blinding green flash and a burning pain in his forehead, then a high, cold cruel laugh. Can you give exact references for that. I'm editing an essay that has been accepted for Scribbulus, and the time sequence in this final sentence is a key part of my discussion. Either the relevant quotes don't exist in the UK editions (I'm in London) or I've not looked hard enough for them. Either way, I'd be really grateful if you can tell me *exactly* where that comes from in the books. Many thanks Dave S / Kidas --------------------  |
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May 7 2006, 12:05 PM
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 30 Joined: 11:17am May 4, 2006 Location: Florida |
I have a question. I was just reading the timeline for the night that Lily and James Potter were killed and ran across this. When Voldemort is remembering the night he says:
"Pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body, I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost … but still, I was alive." My question then, is what happened to Voldemort's body? If he was ripped from it, wouldn't it have been in the house along with Harry's parents? Forgive me if this is a silly question, or if it has been answered elsewhere. I am very new to this world... |
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May 8 2006, 04:32 AM
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 4 Joined: 7:39am May 7, 2006 Location: India |
When voldemort was ripped from his body why did he flee? Shouldn't he have gone to the death eaters asking them to make the potion which would give him a body again?
Im a new member and i dunno if this has been answered elsewhere.. Forgive me in that case but i really would like to know why.. This post has been edited by rachana: May 8 2006, 04:47 AM |
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