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P3 Corner Booth Transcript: Mar 11, 2007, "I Trust Severus Snape"

SoonerGryffindor View Member Profile	Mar 11 2007, 05:56 PM Post #1
WeasleyCast's Hostess With The Mostest Posts: 6,606 Joined: 2:44am February 20, 2006 Location: At The Burrow taking cooking lessons from Molly	This chat was brought to you today and moderated by Aislinn cloudpic Expelliarmas futureweasley Mr. McGonagall and SoonerGryffindor [14:10] * SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [14:10] * Topic is: Leaky Lounge [14:10] * Topic set by Nick [Thu Dec 7 20:19:15 2006] [14:10] * Expelliarmas has joined #lounge [14:10] * Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [14:10] <SoonerGryffindor> yes!!! [14:10] <SoonerGryffindor> thanks Nick [14:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hehe yay! [14:10] <SoonerGryffindor> its working now [14:10] <Expelliarmas> thanks, Nick [14:10] <Joyhawk2121> hello everyone [14:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> howdy [14:11] * MrMcGonagall has joined #lounge [14:11] <SoonerGryffindor> sorry guys, but there were techinical difficulites [14:11] * dumbleydore18 has joined #lounge [14:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hi MrMcG [14:11] <dumbleydore18> finally i'm in! it wouldn't let me in! [14:12] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hehe yeah, we all had a bit of trouble, but nick fixed it! [14:12] <SoonerGryffindor> you and everyohne else dd18 [14:12] <dumbleydore18> hi everyone! bye1 [14:12] <MrMcGonagall> Snuffles was a very bad doggie. [14:12] <dumbleydore18> lol mr. McG [14:12] <MrMcGonagall> No treats for Snuffles today. [14:12] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hehe [14:12] <dumbleydore18> I am watching the tail end of Narnia with the battle....yay [14:12] <SoonerGryffindor> loads of people are trying to get in now and can't [14:12] <SoonerGryffindor> so we are going to wait a bit [14:12] <SoonerGryffindor> several mods can't even make it in right now [14:13] * Aislinn has joined #lounge [14:13] <dumbleydore18> go tumnus! [14:13] * snitchsnatcher has joined #lounge [14:13] <SoonerGryffindor> woot! Yay, Aislinn finally made it in [14:13] <Aislinn> Phew - that was painful! [14:13] * NYBookworm has joined #lounge [14:13] <NYBookworm> hi [14:13] <SoonerGryffindor> nice to see Snuffles is finally letting y [14:13] <SoonerGryffindor> 'all in [14:13] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> [14:13] <MrMcGonagall> Kind of like apparating, Aislinn? [14:13] <dumbleydore18> my cat might type something as she is on my desk...so if there is something random you were warned lol [14:13] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha dumby [14:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i hate when that happens [14:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> while we're waiting, this is for all the PotterCast fans out there: http://www.akeenedesign.com/images/hpimage...issas_movie.jpg [14:14] * JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge [14:14] * MafaldaWeasley has joined #lounge [14:14] <SoonerGryffindor> see Jane? you finally got in [14:14] <JaneMarple9> Yessssssssssssssssssss! [14:14] <SoonerGryffindor> told ya so [14:14] * cloudpic has joined #lounge [14:14] <MrMcGonagall> wootywoohoowahey! [14:15] <MafaldaWeasley> hi everybody!!!!! [14:15] <JaneMarple9> smile hello everyone!! [14:15] <dumbleydore18> hahahahaha [14:15] <MafaldaWeasley> hi jane!!! [14:15] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M - I feel like I got splinched! [14:15] <Aislinn> laugh [14:15] * phpNickTLC has quit [Bye] [14:15] * Expelliarmas has quit [Bye] [14:15] <JaneMarple9> dumbey!! Room on the fence for me? I think I made need it today with our favourite potions master! [14:15] <SoonerGryffindor> okay everyone, since Snuffles decided to misbehave [14:15] <SoonerGryffindor> we are going to start at 30 after [14:15] <dumbleydore18> yes room room always room [14:16] * Theowyn has joined #lounge [14:16] * nympheart has joined #lounge [14:16] <SoonerGryffindor> give everyone time to get in, as I know there are still people having problems [14:16] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> woo theowyn!!! [14:16] <JaneMarple9> thats good! [14:16] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> great essay! [14:16] <Aislinn> welcome Theowyn smile [14:16] <Theowyn> Hi guys! [14:16] * Pax has joined #lounge [14:16] <MafaldaWeasley> I had problmes before, yeah, but now I'm in okay [14:16] <cloudpic> Amazing essay! [14:16] <dumbleydore18> I may however step off the fence post at some point in the chat as I have many theories on why he's good, bad, and nuetral.... [14:16] <nympheart> hello all [14:16] <MafaldaWeasley> hi nymph! [14:16] <dumbleydore18> but I wont say anymore until the chat... [14:17] <MafaldaWeasley> hehe dumbley! it's a good strategy [14:17] <Aislinn> While we're waiting for people to make it in, we'd like to welcome the newest member of the Corner Booth team, cloudpic! [14:17] <SoonerGryffindor> woot! [14:17] <Theowyn> I am so happy that everyone seems to have liked the essay even if they didn't agree with it. That really is a great compliment! [14:17] <nympheart> yay cp! [14:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> woo cloudpic! [14:17] <MrMcGonagall> Wootywoohowahey!!!! [14:17] <SoonerGryffindor> yay for Cloudpic! [14:17] <MafaldaWeasley> congrats cloudpic! [14:17] <dumbleydore18> Hi cloudpic welcome welcome welcome!!!!! [14:17] * You_wont_know_who has joined #lounge [14:17] <dumbleydore18> er....ayayayayayayayaay! [14:17] * africansk8er has joined #lounge [14:17] <Theowyn> Welcome cloudpic! [14:17] *** africansk8er has quit [Bye] [14:17] <Joyhawk2121> congrats [14:17] <You_wont_know_who> yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy [14:18] * cloudpic is delighted to join such an energetic group! Thank y'all! [14:18] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha [14:18] *** Pax has quit [Bye] [14:18] <SoonerGryffindor> lol ywkw [14:18] <You_wont_know_who> finally [14:18] <You_wont_know_who> hello everyone [14:18] <cloudpic> Yikes [14:18] <dumbleydore18> gets teary eyed at the crownings of the kings and queens of Narnia I hate that scene! [14:18] <JaneMarple9> (((Cloud)))) and everybody else! [14:18] <dumbleydore18> I'm having my own little "movie day" here guys [14:18] <Aislinn> We're really glad you could make the chat, Theowyn, as I'm sure that everyone here is anxious to discuss your beautifully written chapter, even those of us who might take a different view of things wink [14:18] * cloudpic waves to Jane and passes popcorn to dumbley [14:19] <You_wont_know_who> hi Jane, cloudpic and Aislin [14:19] <Aislinn> hey YWKW [14:19] <JaneMarple9> good for you dumbey smile [14:19] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> after I read the essay, I rearranged my plans so that I could come to the chatroom... you know you're obsessed when... [14:19] <nympheart> cool, dumbley, I'm jealous as of today I have no life [14:19] <Theowyn> I am only going to be here for a little while because I have to go to lunch with relatives from out of town, but I did want to say thanks to everyone for the interest. [14:19] * dumbleydore18 pats nympheart on back [14:19] <cloudpic> It's wonderful that you could come for a bit! [14:19] <You_wont_know_who> chocolate nice to know [14:20] * mollywobbles23 has joined #lounge [14:20] <mollywobbles23> yay! [14:20] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hey molly! [14:20] <cloudpic> I hope you're tolerant of "ShapeShifters" here, Theowyn. [14:20] <mollywobbles23> hi! [14:20] * Expelliarmas has joined #lounge [14:20] <Theowyn> Lol! [14:20] <nympheart> hi molly and expie [14:20] <You_wont_know_who> Theowyn I love your essays at large [14:20] <mollywobbles23> Snapeity, Snape, Snape, Snape [14:20] <JaneMarple9> ah you made it Molly smile [14:20] * futureweasley has joined #lounge [14:21] <Aislinn> or SnapeShifters even, cloudpic [14:21] <cloudpic> LOL molly [14:21] <MrMcGonagall> Future! [14:21] <Aislinn> Yay, futureweasley [14:21] <nympheart> hi future [14:21] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> howdy future! [14:21] <SoonerGryffindor> OKay guys, we are going to get this show on the road now [14:21] <dumbleydore18> it'll be okay, that was my day yesterday, I was writing a paper on the emotions of the film lion witch wardrobe, an "evaluation" essay and since I am the film freak of my family I wrote a paper on that film for my writing class and I finished it at 9pm last night [14:21] <futureweasley> well looky there [14:21] <cloudpic> LOL... I Never spell type that right!! [14:21] <SoonerGryffindor> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You’re not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you’ll be able to type again soon. [14:21] <SoonerGryffindor> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod [14:21] <SoonerGryffindor> You won’t be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it” in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [14:21] <SoonerGryffindor> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [14:22] <SoonerGryffindor> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [14:22] <Aislinn> Each week for our P3 chats will be discussing one of the chapters from Leaky’s new project: HarryPotterSeven.com, which can be found at this website: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/#static:bookseven [14:22] <Aislinn> Today we will be discussing Theowyn’s essay, “I trust Severus Snape”, based on Dumbledore's repeated assertion to Harry about the former Potion Master's loyalties. Theowyn analyzes Snape’s actions throughout the series and comes to the conclusion that she also trusts Snape. Theowyn’s chapter can be found here: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/#static:bookseven/snape [14:22] <Aislinn> The first time you read HBP, did the words traitor or murderer immediately pop into your mind when Snape killed Dumbledore? [14:22] <MrMcGonagall> Murderer popped into mine. [14:22] <futureweasley> absolutely [14:22] <MafaldaWeasley> Not really [14:22] <futureweasley> both [14:22] <SoonerGryffindor> They did for about the first 3-4 hours. Then I stepped back and started thinking rationally about it [14:22] <You_wont_know_who> even before he killed Dumbledore [14:22] <dumbleydore18> I was too busy crying to care about my feelings on Snape [14:23] <Expelliarmas> cold blooded killer [14:23] <mollywobbles23> yes [14:23] <snitchsnatcher> yes, both [14:23] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> yes - Harry had been right about Malfoy, and i instantly though "oh my god, he's been right about snape too" [14:23] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M, I agree. I was shocked, but murderer was the thought in my head [14:23] <nympheart> not really, I just sort of cocked my head to one side [14:23] <futureweasley> or irrationally, Sooner [14:23] <MrMcGonagall> My thought exactly, Expie. [14:23] <You_wont_know_who> when I read the first chapter I knew [14:23] <mollywobbles23> In that first instant, anyway. [14:23] <cloudpic> No. Honestly, they didn't. And I don't know why... except that it seemed to be what Dumbledore wanted. [14:23] <dumbleydore18> but afterwards I had pure hatred! [14:23] <nympheart> I put off figuring out what I thought of Snape for a week or two [14:23] <MafaldaWeasley> haha nymph! I agree. I did the same [14:23] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Murderer definitely [14:23] <SoonerGryffindor> Then I started thinking about his actions at the end [14:23] <mollywobbles23> I actually had to read that part a few times before it sunk in. [14:23] <SoonerGryffindor> and how that did not compute [14:23] <futureweasley> it's hard to not think "murderer" when we see him kill someone if cold blood [14:23] <JaneMarple9> cold blooded killer [14:23] <JaneMarple9> evil [14:23] * JaneMarple9 has quit [Bye] [14:24] <cloudpic> yes.. molly.... I thought he'd escaped when he fell out the window [14:24] * JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge [14:24] <You_wont_know_who> true futureweasley [14:24] <dumbleydore18> but then I got to thinking that there was probably some rationality behind the killing. Snape saving himself so he wouldn't die.... [14:24] <Aislinn> I was feeling the same emotions that Harry was, as he watched [14:24] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> me too aislinn [14:24] <MrMcGonagall> I had to re-read the scene so many times. [14:24] <dumbleydore18> brb going to the powder room [14:24] <cloudpic> Wept every time. [14:24] <futureweasley> me too MrMcG! I couldn't believe it was happening [14:24] <You_wont_know_who> I drew the same conclusions every time [14:24] <You_wont_know_who> murdere [14:24] <You_wont_know_who> r [14:24] <SoonerGryffindor> its been really interesting re-reading the entire series thinking about "that scene" in HBP [14:24] <snitchsnatcher> still do clodpic [14:24] <futureweasley> and I wanted to make sure I didn't "miss" anything [14:24] <MafaldaWeasley> I was more trying to see it from Snape's side really. He's one of my favorite characters, so well written [14:24] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> yeah mrmcg... i saw "avada kedavra" written on the page in italics before I got to reading it... and was horrified [14:25] <cloudpic> me too, snitchsnatcher [14:25] <Aislinn> Theowyn states, “The only way for Snape to be truly independent would be for him to be opposed to both Voldemort and wizarding society—in effect to aspire to bring down both and become the next Dark Lord himself.” Do you see this as Snape’s goal? [14:25] <SoonerGryffindor> man, how many of us were afraid to turn that page [14:25] <nympheart> I waited until I re-read the series before working on snape theories [14:25] <cloudpic> ohhh, chocolate [14:25] * JaneMarple9 has quit [Bye] [14:25] <NYBookworm> no, I didn't think he was a traitor or murderer when it first happened it just struck me as necessary [14:25] <MrMcGonagall> I think it is. [14:25] * dsm25 has joined #lounge [14:25] <SoonerGryffindor> absolutely not [14:25] <mollywobbles23> no [14:25] <MafaldaWeasley> No, to be honest I don't [14:25] <cloudpic> I don't either [14:25] <NYBookworm> I was reminded stronly of the scene in star wars wehn Vader kills obi-wan it was like noooo but had to happen [14:25] <mollywobbles23> If it was, he would have done it already when Voldemort was gone, wouldn't he? [14:25] <nympheart> I don't think so, I think right now he's more focused on survival [14:25] <snitchsnatcher> no he's a servant, always a servant [14:26] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think he wants to bring down wizarding society, but I think he wants to command people's respect. [14:26] <You_wont_know_who> he can be independent without bein evil [14:26] <Expelliarmas> I know Jo needed to kill off Dumbledore, but what a way to go [14:26] <MrMcGonagall> He is not voldemort's man. [14:26] <Aislinn> I think that it would be possible for him to be opposed to LV for his own personal reasons, that have nothing to do with loyalty to Dumbledore or the larger wizarding cocmmunity [14:26] <SoonerGryffindor> I think the only way he is out for himself is if it is as Theo says, that he wants to be the next dark lord. Which I do not think he wants [14:26] <cloudpic> Wizarding society hasn't been kind to him, but he still seems part of it [14:26] <nympheart> I agree MrM [14:26] * danielk has joined #lounge [14:26] <MrMcGonagall> I think you could be right, Aislinn. [14:26] <MafaldaWeasley> hi daniel [14:26] <danielk> hi [14:26] <cloudpic> I hope he isn't Voldemort's man still. [14:26] <danielk> wow my font is messed up [14:26] <SoonerGryffindor> but he is going to have to decide [14:26] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape cannot sit on the fence [14:26] <futureweasley> he's been disrespected, in his eyes, by both sides for a long time. He needs to bring both sides to their knees in order to "heal" those wounds [14:27] <cloudpic> Remember,at one time he was... he wears the Dark Mark still. [14:27] <Aislinn> he can act on either side of the fence, sooner, and still be out for himself [14:27] * HarryPotterfan_0916_ has joined #lounge [14:27] * katiebcat has joined #lounge [14:27] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think he is sitting in the fence anymore I think he chosed a path [14:27] <You_wont_know_who> I trully believe he can be simply independent and if he is evil it's his own choice [14:27] <Aislinn> yes he does, cloudpic [14:27] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> hello [14:27] <katiebcat> sorry i am late and what is the current question? [14:27] <dumbleydore18> um no I do not see SNape becoming the next dark lord [14:27] <nympheart> I agree future, but I don't think he needs to be a dictator to get that [14:27] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think that he can be opposed to voldemort, but also to the Order, for killing lily. He might be mad at Sirius for allowing arrogant James to trust someone else, at Dumbledore for not protecting them well enough? [14:27] <MafaldaWeasley> hello HP [14:27] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think Snape has ever felt beholden to Dumbledore or LV. [14:27] <dumbleydore18> I think he is way smarter and less foolish to do that [14:27] <dumbleydore18> I agree Mr. McG [14:27] <Aislinn> we are talking about whether Snape could be in this for himself katiebcat [14:28] <cloudpic> I wonder if being opposed to something requires that you want to see it destroyed, though? [14:28] <danielk> what would he gain by betraying both sides? [14:28] <SoonerGryffindor> very good point daniel [14:28] <danielk> he is not powerful enough to demand fear from everyone [14:28] <Aislinn> we have seen that he reacts violently to things he is opposed to, cloudpic [14:28] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think so nymph. [14:28] <futureweasley> it's not about betrayal, I don't think [14:28] <cloudpic> I can oppose a particular political party, say, and not want to see it destroyed. [14:28] <You_wont_know_who> he has no charisma [14:28] <dsm25> i think that snape could definitely be in this for himself...but then again, I think that would describe any Death Eater [14:28] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> maybe vengence, danielk? maybe he has a plan to hurt both sides that can only be carried out by being a double agent [14:28] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> he needs protecton from both sides [14:28] <danielk> i know, but if he is not on either side, what would he gain by being in this for himself [14:29] <nympheart> Oh, I think he has charisma, maybe not as much as LV, but he has it [14:29] <You_wont_know_who> to be the next Dark Lord you must have a sparkle of charisma inside [14:29] <danielk> hmmm [14:29] <Aislinn> yes, chocolateisnotforbreakfast , i think that is one possibility [14:29] <SoonerGryffindor> I think we also need to define "in it for himself" [14:29] <futureweasley> I think the only thing he truly needs protection from his himself [14:29] <mollywobbles23> Snape is like the greasy Roger Dangerfield. All he wants is a little respect. [14:29] <dumbleydore18> I think because he is a slytherin that he is only on his own side as slytherins only think about themselves, he killed dd to save his own skin. [14:29] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> HAHAHA molly [14:29] <cloudpic> Oh, You_Won't_Know_Who,...I think Snape has considerable charisma [14:29] <MafaldaWeasley> Yes, daniel, considering this as a very risky postition to be [14:29] <nympheart> respect daniel, he's always been on the bottom of the chain [14:29] <MrMcGonagall> I think he has his own reasons for doing everything he does, and not simply because he's acting on anyone's orders. [14:29] <SoonerGryffindor> I don't think that Snape;s reasons are as noble as Harry's but I think he is on the same side [14:29] <You_wont_know_who> I can't see any charisma in him [14:29] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i totally though you said "rodney dangerfield" [14:29] <Aislinn> that whatever actions he takes, sooner, are taken for his own selfish reasons, and not out of any loyalty to any side [14:29] <You_wont_know_who> sorry cloudpic [14:29] <mollywobbles23> yeah, him too [14:29] <mollywobbles23> lol [14:29] <MafaldaWeasley> M neither ywkw [14:29] <SoonerGryffindor> I disagree Aislinn [14:30] <SoonerGryffindor> I think you can still be selfish, yet be on a particular side [14:30] * katiebcat has quit [Bye] [14:30] <danielk> i think snape wants respect, but he also wants to belong to something too [14:30] <SoonerGryffindor> I see hate as a very powerful motivator [14:30] <Joyhawk2121> trur sonner [14:30] <danielk> that is probably why he became a death eater in the first place [14:30] <cloudpic> No, don't be sorry... we can agree to disagree! But look at how much attention has been given to this character... far more than any other teacher including the likeable Hagrid [14:30] <Aislinn> you can be, but it doesn't necessarily mean you are [14:30] <Joyhawk2121> i mean true [14:30] <nympheart> "I can teach you how to bewitch the mind and ensnare the senses..." I think I disagree with you ywkw. [14:30] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> hi koy [14:30] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> joy [14:30] <Joyhawk2121> hi [14:30] <MrMcGonagall> This world isn't just made up of good wizards and dark wizards. There are Snapes, too. [14:30] <Aislinn> hate is an emotion that is against something, not in support of something else [14:31] <futureweasley> exactly MrMcG... [14:31] <dsm25> i see anyone who has aligned themselves with LV to be someone who craves power for him or herself [14:31] <You_wont_know_who> nympheart nice to see you but he spoke about the magical means, not charisma [14:31] <Expelliarmas> yes, there are snakes everywhere [14:31] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think we can tell what snape wants my looking at what he hates... he hates people who are arrogant and get undeserved attention, so he values those who earn their attention, who earn their respect [14:31] <cloudpic> Snakes are good. [14:31] <futureweasley> look at Mundungus...totally like Snape in almost every way. No good or bad, just bleh [14:31] <nympheart> but he delivered it in a very captivating way [14:31] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> I think that we will find out where he is good or bad by his bogot [14:31] <danielk> we dont know if snape is good or bad weasley [14:32] <Aislinn> Theowyn argues that Slytherins are self-centered rather than selfish. Which of the two characteristics do you see Snape being? [14:32] <cloudpic> I don't think Dung and Snape are alike... Dung is interested in $$$ [14:32] <You_wont_know_who> Aislinn I agree [14:32] <dumbleydore18> I agree future, Dung only does things for himself [14:32] <MafaldaWeasley> selfish [14:32] <dumbleydore18> selfish [14:32] <SoonerGryffindor> hmmmmm [14:32] <You_wont_know_who> self-centered of course [14:32] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> self-centered [14:32] <Joyhawk2121> selfish [14:32] <Theowyn> I'm off to lunch. This is an awesome discussion and I'm looking forward to reading the whole transcript when I get back. Hugs to everyone. [14:32] <mollywobbles23> self-centered [14:32] <MrMcGonagall> I honestly think more self-centered than selfish. [14:32] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, I think self-centered [14:32] <cloudpic> If he were selfish he would not spy for anyone [14:32] <You_wont_know_who> and selfish too but more self-centered [14:32] <cloudpic> He has nothing to gain [14:32] <Aislinn> bye theo - thanks for stopping by smile [14:32] <Expelliarmas> self-centered and out for his own glorification [14:32] <futureweasley> self-centered...I don't really know that we've seen him as selfish [14:32] <MrMcGonagall> With Snape, it's "All about me" [14:32] <SoonerGryffindor> bye Theo [14:32] <cloudpic> Bye, Theowyn, thank you for a great essay [14:32] <You_wont_know_who> he has his life to gain [14:32] <You_wont_know_who> bye Theowyn [14:33] <nympheart> bye theowyn [14:33] <MafaldaWeasley> if he was just self-centered he wouldn't be such a bad teacher. he clearly shows preferences that could give him things in future, that makes a selfish out of him [14:33] <futureweasley> bye Theo...excellent work [14:33] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> but if he is selfish then why did he help Harry? [14:33] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> bye, Theowyn [14:33] <SoonerGryffindor> I think it works for both, actually [14:33] <dumbleydore18> good point mafalda. [14:33] <cloudpic> I agree, HarryPotterfan [14:33] <Aislinn> I agree mafalda [14:33] <You_wont_know_who> out of his selfishness - he will help anybody to save his skin [14:33] <dumbleydore18> when did Snape help Harry? [14:33] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> self-centered... he holds his own opinion far greater than others... he will hate someone if he wants to because he has his own reasons [14:33] * MadEyeMommy has joined #lounge [14:33] <danielk> first book [14:34] <dsm25> book 1 counter curse [14:34] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> What's in it for me sort of bloke? [14:34] <cloudpic> His preferences are to children who are most like himself... that's self-centered. If he only favored the wealthy and powerful [14:34] <cloudpic> that would be selfish [14:34] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> of couse he may just want to save him for LV [14:34] <MafaldaWeasley> more likely than himself? Malfoy? [14:34] <Aislinn> that was so early in the tale though, dsm, I think he was still trying to figure out who this kid was that defeated LV [14:34] <futureweasley> ok, IF (and I emphasize IF) Snape didn't kill DD for LV...then it would have been the least selfish thing he could have done [14:34] <Joyhawk2121> i agree Aislinn [14:34] <SoonerGryffindor> Would you guys consider Harry selfish for wanting to go after LV because of what he did to his parents? [14:35] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I personally think that malfoy was a special case and that there is a history to Lucius, Snape and Narcissa [14:35] <futureweasley> so, self centered really fits him better [14:35] <Joyhawk2121> no sooner [14:35] <Aislinn> he isn't doing it just for that, sooner [14:35] <cloudpic> Nice point, sooner [14:35] <mollywobbles23> well, Harry is going after LV for more than that [14:35] <cloudpic> Yes, future, I think so [14:35] <nympheart> if the entire wizard world was after the opportunity then yes, sooner, but that's not the case [14:35] <Aislinn> He made it clear way back in the first book that it was to protect the wizarding community [14:35] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> he sees lv as bad [14:35] <dsm25> i sort of see snape as a person who joins a gang to give himself someone strong behind him....then sees later than maybe that wasn't such a hot idea [14:35] <You_wont_know_who> he is self-centered so much that he can't forget about a shoolboy grudge [14:35] <Expelliarmas> No, Harry isn't just going after LV to avenge his parents; he knows he is out to preserve good over evil [14:35] <MafaldaWeasley> I think LV is going after Harry not the opposite sooner...especially in the begining [14:35] <SoonerGryffindor> so let's say that Snae's ultimate goal is to take down LV for selfish reasons..... is this a bad thing? [14:35] <Joyhawk2121> but wouldn't that be your first reaction revenge [14:36] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> maybe snape went to the future and found out that harry must live in order to kill LV [14:36] <Aislinn> it doesn't make him a good man, sooner [14:36] <dumbleydore18> I am beginning to think that Snape didn't kill DD for the Vow, to save Draco and himself, but for the sake of something different [14:36] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Harry repeatedly says that everything that's bad... NEville's parent's, people dying, that it all comes back to Voldemort [14:36] <SoonerGryffindor> we are not debating if he is a good man [14:36] <MrMcGonagall> I think Snape can be selfish, too. He will grind others into the dust just to get ahead. [14:36] <cloudpic> But Snape didn't just leave LV... he went to the only wizard LV feared... [14:36] <Expelliarmas> Snape's goal is to glorify himself; if LV shows himself to be the guy with the power, that's where he will stay [14:36] <SoonerGryffindor> we are debating his loyalty [14:36] <You_wont_know_who> Sooner it's not a bad thing but it makes his weaker [14:36] <mollywobbles23> exactly chocolate! [14:36] <Aislinn> the act of taking down LV might be useful to all, but it doesn't make Snape a good man [14:36] <MrMcGonagall> Snape is never going to be a good man. [14:36] <Aislinn> it doesn't make him loyal either [14:36] <SoonerGryffindor> right. You will never see me argue he is a good man [14:36] <MafaldaWeasley> i agree aislinn [14:36] <SoonerGryffindor> that is not the issue [14:36] <futureweasley> I don't necessarily see that as "Selfish" MrMcG...that is classic "all about me" self-centeredness [14:36] <You_wont_know_who> he is not good and he never be [14:36] <SoonerGryffindor> the issue is whether or not he is DD's man [14:37] <Expelliarmas> he would do it if it meant he would profit from it [14:37] <nympheart> I need to switch computers, I'll be right back [14:37] * nympheart left #lounge [] [14:37] <cloudpic> I'm not sure he tries to glorify himself... I think he has to struggle hugely just to get respectful treatment from others... consider his childhood and years at school. [14:37] <Aislinn> if he is doing it for his own selfish or self centered reasons, than it has nothing to do with loyalty to Dumbledore [14:37] <You_wont_know_who> he is his own man [14:37] <Expelliarmas> no, DD's man is a "true" guy; Snape isn't that [14:37] <danielk> well i gtg [14:37] <danielk> bye bye [14:37] <Joyhawk2121> I don't think he'a DD man or anyone eles [14:37] <MrMcGonagall> How would one define selfishness, though? I think selfishness springs from being self-centered. [14:37] <futureweasley> bye daniel [14:37] <MafaldaWeasley> I think he tried that ywkw, but know he had positioned himslef [14:37] <cloudpic> His self-centeredness is a kind of forced introversion. [14:37] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> bye dk [14:37] <Expelliarmas> bye dk [14:37] <SoonerGryffindor> I disagree. I don't think he is his own man either. I think he is beyond the luxury of choosing that option [14:37] <You_wont_know_who> Aislinn I totally agree [14:37] * nympheart has joined #lounge [14:37] <MafaldaWeasley> bye daniel [14:37] * danielk has quit [Bye] [14:37] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> But remember that James saved him from Lupin [14:37] <Aislinn> why, sooner? [14:38] <Aislinn> it is not a luxury - it is the way that he makes his decisions [14:38] <Expelliarmas> Snape has his own agenda; he will not forsake that [14:38] <Aislinn> a central part of his being [14:38] <SoonerGryffindor> because it is time to choose sides. He can't st on the fence in DH [14:38] <You_wont_know_who> he 's made a choice? Not really [14:38] * MadEyeMommy left #lounge [] [14:38] <MrMcGonagall> He will keep his hand hidden as long as possible. [14:38] <Expelliarmas> He isn't sitting on thefence; he is on his own side [14:38] <futureweasley> I see selfish as greedy and manipulative. I see self-centeredness as more of an internal thing [14:38] <Aislinn> choosing to go against LV does not automatically make him loyal, or on the side of good [14:38] <snitchsnatcher> yes, Sooner and I think he chose LV [14:39] <Aislinn> it is against something, not for something [14:39] <cloudpic> That's an interesting point, Aislinn [14:39] <You_wont_know_who> futureweasley I fully support your view [14:39] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, i think he tried is best to keep himself on the fence but now he was forced to take a side [14:39] <dumbleydore18> i agree aislinn [14:39] <Expelliarmas> Snape is for something--himself [14:39] <SoonerGryffindor> What was it DD told Fudge at the end of GoF? [14:39] <Aislinn> If a person is called “deeply horrible” does that mean s/he is also evil? [14:39] <SoonerGryffindor> NO [14:39] <mollywobbles23> no [14:39] <dumbleydore18> no [14:39] <Joyhawk2121> no [14:39] <dsm25> no [14:39] <futureweasley> not necessarily [14:39] <MafaldaWeasley> no, not really [14:39] <Aislinn> I agree, that this would be no [14:39] <You_wont_know_who> no [14:39] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think he chose when he took the UV... In one swoop he chose to defy Dumbledore by agreeing to do a task by the Dark Lord at risk of death, and he defied Voldemort by preventing the "punishment" of the malfoy family [14:39] <Expelliarmas> notnecessarily, but it sure takes them on the road to evil [14:39] <dumbleydore18> a person chooses whether or not they want to be "deeple horrible" [14:39] <futureweasley> it doesn't pigeon toe then into something automatically [14:39] <You_wont_know_who> but he can't be good either [14:40] <Aislinn> good point chocolate [14:40] <cloudpic> Perhaps we need a definition for evil? [14:40] <nympheart> agreed, expie [14:40] <SoonerGryffindor> so what was it that DD told Fudge at the end of GoF? [14:40] <Aislinn> yes, expie, I agree. [14:40] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> Maybe he went to the furter and found out that in order to save harry he must kill Dd but he will come back somehow [14:40] <Aislinn> I think that the daily, small and big choices that a person makes, shapes their character [14:40] <cloudpic> If he hadn't taken the UV, he'd have been useless to Dumbledore. [14:40] <mollywobbles23> Here's the scale: good_____________________________here's Snape_____________________________evil [14:40] <MrMcGonagall> LV is evil - he's irredeemable as a person. People like Snape may do evil things, but it doesn't necessarily make them evil in their person. [14:40] <Expelliarmas> I don't see Jo playing out the timeturner thing twice in the seires [14:40] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hahaha molly [14:40] <MafaldaWeasley> haha molly [14:40] <Aislinn> making daily choices that are "deeply horrible" shapes the character to be more deeply horrible too [14:40] <You_wont_know_who> Snape enjoys being horrible [14:41] <You_wont_know_who> that's the difference [14:41] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Or maybe it was someone else who told Snape [14:41] <Expelliarmas> yes, and that's not a good thing, ywkw [14:41] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I can make deeply horrible choices without being a deeply horrible person, though... [14:41] <futureweasley> Vernon Dursley is "deeply horrible". Is he "evil"? I mean, we know he's cruel and all...but evil? I think Snape and Vernon parallel each other on that plane [14:41] <cloudpic> So the only evil is that which can't be redeemed, Mr. McG.? [14:41] <dsm25> snape is a bully because he never got oever being bullied [14:41] <MafaldaWeasley> I think he enjoys being superior [14:41] <MrMcGonagall> I wouldn't put Snape in an irredeemable category, so I wouldn't call him evil as a person. [14:41] <Aislinn> ooh, good question cloudpic [14:41] <Expelliarmas> Vernon is also stupid and can't help being stupid; Snape is not stupid [14:41] <MrMcGonagall> He does a lot of things I would call evil that endanger his soul. [14:41] <MafaldaWeasley> yes expie [14:41] <Joyhawk2121> true Expell [14:42] <cloudpic> Snape wasn't just bullied, though, he was abused and saw his mother abused as well. [14:42] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M, that is my point [14:42] <futureweasley> I think "close-minded" and "stupid" are completely different, but that's another chat [14:42] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> I think at Snape would kill his own mother just to save his own neck [14:42] <You_wont_know_who> Snape is not stupid which makes him worse [14:42] <dsm25> that's my point, cloud pic [14:42] <dumbleydore18> I am taking into conscideration on what DD said about the choices people make, Snape has a choice of being "deeply horrible" or something else "nice", yet "nice" is different that being "good" or "bad" LV is nice to wormtail when he gives him his super hand, but that does not mean he is "good" [14:42] <MrMcGonagall> In Jo's world, at least, there seems to be a point where a person crosses a line regarding redemption. [14:42] <Aislinn> each choice pushes someone in one direction or another along the continuum that Molly posted before [14:42] <cloudpic> Oh, I don't think so... we've seen Snape caring for others...including Harry. [14:42] *** JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge [14:42] <Expelliarmas> His caring though, is highly warped [14:42] <JaneMarple9> testing 123 [14:42] <cloudpic> Maybe those of us who are SnapeShifters are so because he himself shifts, then? [14:42] <You_wont_know_who> cloudpic his carring was limited somehow [14:42] <nympheart> I would argue that Snape is possibly more evil than LV; LV is insane, so it's really hard to say where the line is as far as his responsibility for his actions, Snape on the other hand, knows exactly what he's doing [14:42] <Expelliarmas> and borders on sadistic [14:42] <futureweasley> HIGHLY, agreed Expie [14:42] <dsm25> doesn't the abuse cycle keep itself going? [14:42] <dumbleydore18> i see you jane [14:43] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> we see ya jane [14:43] <mollywobbles23> "coninuum" that's the word I was thinking of! [14:43] <JaneMarple9> and back again! [14:43] <cloudpic> I agaree, You_won't [14:43] <MafaldaWeasley> Did or was he just being selsish cloudpic [14:43] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha [14:43] <You_wont_know_who> futureweasley - you are right [14:43] <cloudpic> agree [14:43] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> It isn't warped when it comes to Draco, though. Snape's care I mean [14:43] <You_wont_know_who> true WWW [14:43] <dumbleydore18> how is Snape more evil than Voldemort nymph? [14:43] <Expelliarmas> Snape has Lucius to think about when it comes to Draco [14:43] <Aislinn> It is well known that Snape hates Harry, but Quirrell says that Snape never wanted Harry dead. Do you see enough evidence to support this statement?* [14:43] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> He seems to like Draco, took the Unbreakable Vow for Narcissa [14:43] <SoonerGryffindor> yes [14:43] <You_wont_know_who> yes, true [14:43] <Joyhawk2121> I think he cares in a way for Draco that will benefit him in the end [14:44] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape has had mutiple opportunites to kll Harry [14:44] <You_wont_know_who> Snape wants to use Harry - he needs him [14:44] <SoonerGryffindor> and has not [14:44] <Expelliarmas> Initially, he did not want Harry dead; Quirrell died at the end of book 1; things have changed [14:44] <futureweasley> absolutely [14:44] <mollywobbles23> yes. The thing we don't know is why Snape didn't want Harry dead. [14:44] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, I think Snape has a reason for trying to preserve Harry's life. [14:44] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Yes, but i find it EXTREMELY odd that he wants harry out of hogwarts so badly... why try to expell him so often? he explains to Bella, but we can't take that as truth [14:44] <MafaldaWeasley> errrrr...... Harry was his bargin object with both sides, wasn't it? [14:44] <Aislinn> I think that it would have been foolish of him to kill Harry, sooner, if he is trying to protect himself [14:44] <cloudpic> I don't think that Snape hates Harry. There I said it. [14:44] <You_wont_know_who> he knows that Harry's fate is linked with his fate [14:44] <You_wont_know_who> but he hates the boy [14:44] <futureweasley> when Snape refuses to finish Harry after the Lightning Stuck Tower, I think there is evidance right there that Snape doesn't want Harry dead [14:44] <SoonerGryffindor> Actually, Harry is safest at #4 PD [14:44] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Good point Mafalda. [14:44] * You_wont_know_who hides from cloudpic [14:45] <cloudpic> Like Sirius, Snape often confuses Harry with James [14:45] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> I agree You_wont [14:45] <SoonerGryffindor> someone who is solely intrested in his safety, not happiness might want him there [14:45] <MrMcGonagall> He hates him, but he doesn't want him dead. [14:45] <Aislinn> so what are all those actions against him, cloudpic, and the vitriolic expression on his face every time he looks at Harry? [14:45] <snitchsnatcher> Yew Mafalda [14:45] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Expulsion means he doesn't have to have anything to do with Harry [14:45] <Expelliarmas> Harry is a bargaining chip for Snape; keeping him alive gave him something to deal with when it came time to return to LV [14:45] <dsm25> bingo, cloudpic [14:45] <futureweasley> but, that actually me he can't torture the boy [14:45] <nympheart> I think Snape is aware that there are worse things than death, and wants to make sure Harry experiences that [14:45] <dumbleydore18> anyone want to know what evil means? Here are a couple of devinitions from dictionary.com: characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate, marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc., characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous [14:45] * cloudpic Butterflies are harmless, You_won't! LOL [14:45] <futureweasley> see, I agree with that, too Expie [14:45] <snitchsnatcher> Hary's the ping pong ball [14:45] <dsm25> snape can't vindicate himself with james, so he chooses to do so with harry [14:45] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> I book 3 why did he want to save harry from sirius [14:45] <MafaldaWeasley> I think Snape was truly undeciced till HBP, he was seem what would bring him more advantage, killing Harry would totally destroy ihis profits [14:45] <You_wont_know_who> lol cloudpic [14:45] <JaneMarple9> what is the question byt the way? [14:46] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> lol [14:46] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> If he'd stayed in Potions in HBP, Snape would never have to have anythig to do with Harry ever again [14:46] <Expelliarmas> Snape considered his debt settled after Book 1; after that it was in his own interest to keep Harry alive and see what happens [14:46] <cloudpic> Snape and Sirius have a great deal in common... both have trouble with relating to others without emotion getting int the way [14:46] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> but he wanted that DADA job [14:46] <Expelliarmas> In Book 7, LV gave orders that Harry would be killed by him alone [14:46] <nympheart> If Snape had killed Harry, both the Order and LV would be after his head [14:46] <dumbleydore18> yes I do. I see a lot of evidence. Look at all the times that Snape has made Harry do potions over and over? Look at all the times that Snape has kept an eye on Harry, I think that Snape cares for Harry he just shows it in a very very very odd way. [14:46] <MrMcGonagall> I'm not so sure, Expie. [14:46] <You_wont_know_who> true Expeliarmas [14:46] <mollywobbles23> I think that the scene in the POA movie that is important later is when Snape protects the trio from wolfy Lupin. That wasn't in the book. [14:46] <JaneMarple9> yes snape always wanted the dada job [14:46] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> why didn't voldemort or dumbledore ever tell Snape that the job was cursed? [14:46] <You_wont_know_who> Snape did the orders [14:47] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> I wonder about that so-called debt. I don't think he repaid the debt. [14:47] <nympheart> neither do I WWW [14:47] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think the debt was settled in PS/Ss [14:47] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape could easily have taken Harry with him at the end, but didn't [14:47] <Expelliarmas> Snape said he was to spy at Hogwarts; what better info could there be than info on Harry? His friends, his tendencies, weaknesses, etc. [14:47] <SoonerGryffindor> I don't think LV would have minded him bringing Harry to him [14:47] <You_wont_know_who> Snape knew for sure that the job was cursed [14:47] <cloudpic> I think it was settled at the end of HBP [14:47] <Aislinn> right expie [14:47] <Expelliarmas> LV does not want help for that; he needs to do this himself [14:47] <nympheart> Snape wasn't thinking very clearly at the end of HBP [14:47] <JaneMarple9> if dumbledore hadn't chosen him in book 6, it could have been a different ending [14:47] <dumbleydore18> By SNape making Harry do the potions over again shows that he is pushing Harry to be greater than he thinks he is. Harry won't be able to do potions or spells over again in the real world so Snape is giving Harrry the chance to perfect it while he's in school [14:47] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think it's the kind of debt that can be settled so long as Harry's life is in danger. [14:47] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> then why would he want it, ywkw? [14:47] <Expelliarmas> Harry dead takes away his big use for LV [14:47] <Aislinn> and may not have been heading right for LV, since he had to deal with draco [14:48] <JaneMarple9> snape never thinks very clearly i don't think [14:48] <You_wont_know_who> to end his double agent life [14:48] <JaneMarple9> he is working for two masters [14:48] <SoonerGryffindor> I still think that it is very telling that Snape saved Harry's life at the end of HBP [14:48] <You_wont_know_who> highly uncomfortable [14:48] <Expelliarmas> I disagree, Snape is a calculating cold guy; he thinks very well [14:48] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> Snape will HAVE to pick a side [14:48] <nympheart> I think Snape has to be very good at thinking clearly to still be alive [14:48] <cloudpic> As do I, Sooner [14:48] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree Expie [14:48] <Joyhawk2121> I agree Expell [14:48] <You_wont_know_who> Sooner he didn't saved Harry's life [14:48] <SoonerGryffindor> yes he did [14:48] <snitchsnatcher> I agredd Expell [14:48] <Expelliarmas> He did not save Harry's life at the end of HBP; he followed LV's orders; there's a difference [14:48] <MrMcGonagall> One of the things I think Snape hates is tha the wizarding world now thinks he has chosen a side. [14:48] <SoonerGryffindor> he made sure no DE's took harry with hm [14:48] <MafaldaWeasley> no he didn't sooner. [14:48] <cloudpic> Yes, he did... saved Harry. [14:48] <Aislinn> not his life, sooner, he saved him from a Crucio [14:49] <SoonerGryffindor> we do not know for sure what would have happened [14:49] <dumbleydore18> towards the end of HBP Snape was trying to get Harry to do his spells wordless, he was instructing Harry to have perfection to the last second he left. [14:49] <cloudpic> From the other DE's [14:49] <You_wont_know_who> Expie - exactly [14:49] <SoonerGryffindor> but I bet it would not have been good [14:49] <Expelliarmas> Snape obeys LV--that says a lot [14:49] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> He saved him in book one and three [14:49] <Aislinn> Snape’s hand twitches before he makes the Unbreakable Vow. Theowyn brings up the question, “But does this mean that he doesn’t want to harmDumbledore or that he simply dreads trying to kill the only wizard Voldemort ever feared?” [14:49] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think that harry would have been fine on the broomstick... he fell other times and Dumbledore stopped him from hitting the ground too hard... it was kind of a lame life-saving to count for a life debt [14:49] <dumbleydore18> the times that SNape checked up on harry and his friends were times of them getting into trouble [14:49] <SoonerGryffindor> We don't know for sure that was a real order [14:49] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think Snape actually knew what the plan was. He was guessing. [14:49] * Expelliarmas wonders who on earth would be crazy enough to invite her to this chat [14:49] <mollywobbles23> exactly sooner [14:49] <nympheart> I think Snape's afraid for his own life in not being able to keep the debt [14:49] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> What about in book 3 [14:49] <SoonerGryffindor> I think this is the moment that Snape knew he was going to have to come out in the open [14:50] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I don't think snape knew what the mission was [14:50] <MafaldaWeasley> Who knows? one can twiche of excitment too hehehe [14:50] <Expelliarmas> it has to have been a real order--the other DEs fell in line right away [14:50] <You_wont_know_who> he was afraaind [14:50] * JaneMarple9 wonders too Expie! Not a Snape fan! [14:50] <Aislinn> I think that he was afraid too, YWKW [14:50] <SoonerGryffindor> not with the dunces that were there taht night Expie [14:50] <You_wont_know_who> Expie I amnot a Snape fan either [14:50] <MrMcGonagall> I think Snape had an educated guess, but didn't actually know with certainty the task that had been set Draco. [14:50] <futureweasley> I don't think that it's Snape making the UV, so I'm unqualified to answer this question [14:50] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think he was afraid. I think he was forced to pick a side right there [14:50] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha future smile it was dd? [14:50] <Expelliarmas> the dunces followed orders or they get LV's wrath [14:51] <futureweasley> yep [14:51] <You_wont_know_who> He was scared so much that he couldn't hold his hand [14:51] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i love that theory [14:51] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape knew at that moment that he was going to have to be the one to do it. He knew that he only had a small amount of time to get whatever plans he had squared away [14:51] <Expelliarmas> I think he was anxious to do the deed and his hand twitched with anticipation [14:51] <cloudpic> I don't think he was afraid. I think he was uncertain that he wanted to make such a commitment [14:51] <dumbleydore18> the hand twitching is probably fear, and I would have to disagree with Mr.McG because I think Snape was fully aware of what the orders were. Other wise Narcissa would not have come to him for help. [14:51] <mollywobbles23> I am the type of fan who hated the first album, loved the second, and am unsure about the latest (let's pretend Snape's a rockstar). I still listen to it hoping it will one day make sense. [14:51] <You_wont_know_who> he was afraid for sure, but also perhaps eager [14:51] <MafaldaWeasley> hehe molly [14:51] <Aislinn> but the question was, to whom was he committing, cloudpic? [14:51] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I hated that he took the vow... obviously, we as readers needed to see it or it wouldn't have been in there at all and I think it was there as a red herring [14:52] <cloudpic> commitment to Narcissa was what made him twitch [14:52] <SoonerGryffindor> I disagree Expie. I think that twitch was realizing he was in a no-win situation [14:52] <MrMcGonagall> I think narcissa went to him for help because he's a powerful wizard, the head of Draco's house, and in a position to protect Draco. [14:52] <cloudpic> She's very needy in that scene [14:52] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> good point sooner [14:52] <MafaldaWeasley> it can be sooner [14:52] <You_wont_know_who> he had no commitment to Narcissa [14:52] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> wondering about what he was getting into [14:52] * You_wont_know_who hides again [14:52] <futureweasley> I think the twitch was Dumbledore realizing there was no turning back [14:52] <Aislinn> it does push him out of the role that he has been comfortable in, sooner, I agree with that [14:52] <cloudpic> I agree, Mr. McG. [14:52] <Expelliarmas> I think the twitch was years of pent up frustration of having to be a good boy for DD coming to the forefront [14:52] <SoonerGryffindor> usually a twitch like that means you wanted to withdraw, but were forcing yourself not ot [14:53] <cloudpic> That's why Bella dislikes Snape so... he's one of the few as powerful as she believes herself to be [14:53] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> Does Snape have famialy [14:53] <Expelliarmas> and revulsion at DD begging [14:53] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Sorry, hafta go. bye [14:53] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> bye www [14:53] <SoonerGryffindor> bye wagga [14:53] <Aislinn> bye wagga [14:53] <futureweasley> bye wagga [14:53] <cloudpic> Bye, wagga [14:53] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> bye [14:53] * WaggaWaggaWerewolf has quit [Bye] [14:53] <MafaldaWeasley> bye wagga [14:53] <Aislinn> Snape tells Bella that he “spun a tale of deepest remorse” for Dumbledore. Theowyn asks, “Could that alone have convinced Dumbledore of Snape’s trustworthiness?” [14:53] <SoonerGryffindor> no [14:53] <You_wont_know_who> no [14:53] * dsm25 has quit [Bye] [14:53] <SoonerGryffindor> dumbledore is smarter than that [14:53] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> yes [14:53] <MafaldaWeasley> no [14:53] <nympheart> yes, DD likes to trust [14:53] <Expelliarmas> yes, DD was a big believer of remorse and regret [14:54] <You_wont_know_who> Dumbledore is not a fool [14:54] <Joyhawk2121> I agree Expie [14:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> dd loves love [14:54] * snitchsnatcher has quit [Bye] [14:54] <SoonerGryffindor> I think a very good point was made that Dumbledore never trustted Tom Riddle again [14:54] <cloudpic> It depends upon what the remorse was being expressed about... the reason for the remorse, not the remorse alone. [14:54] * snitchsnatcher has joined #lounge [14:54] <Joyhawk2121> he beleived in second chances [14:54] <Expelliarmas> Snape is quite the actor, he could be fooled by someone professing great regret and remorse [14:54] <mollywobbles23> Snape's hand twitches before she asks him to do the deed for Draco. It twitches after "if Draco shall fail." It's like he was afraid of what she'd say next but knew there was no way out now. [14:54] <dumbleydore18> that is not the full reason of why DD trusts Snape.' [14:54] <SoonerGryffindor> DD is willing to trust lots of people, but he NEVER trusted Tom [14:54] <cloudpic> Interesting observation, Sooner... our Dumbledore isn't quite as naive as some think, [14:54] <nympheart> I would like to agree with you, ywkw, which is why I don't think DD would have concealed information from Harry a third time [14:54] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> Does Snape Have A Famaily [14:54] <Expelliarmas> Tom was a psychopath who would never genuinely feel remorse or any other emotion [14:54] <mollywobbles23> yes, Sooner [14:55] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> don't think so hpfan [14:55] <You_wont_know_who> Snape had to prove his change somehow [14:55] <MafaldaWeasley> we don't know HP. He had one, if he still has is another thing [14:55] <SoonerGryffindor> I htink a lot of people mistakenly think that DD trusts blindly. I do not think this is the case [14:55] <Aislinn> I agree, expie, that Dumbledore is willing to give people second chances, if they show themselves to be remorseful [14:55] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> but that's not for certain... his mama could be alive somewhere and we wouldn't really know [14:55] <nympheart> good question, HPfan, some people think he's mother's still around as the librarian [14:55] <cloudpic> We don't know if his parents are alive, still, do we? [14:55] <snitchsnatcher> He twitched because he was afraid of DD. What if DD got him before SS could finish [14:55] <MrMcGonagall> I agree Sooner [14:55] <Aislinn> I don't think he is trusting blindly, sooner [14:55] <Expelliarmas> Not blindly, but Snape could be convincing [14:55] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> Maybe thats the clue [14:55] <MrMcGonagall> Snape gave DD a reason, and I believe it was a really good reason. [14:55] <SoonerGryffindor> so there has to be more to it than the story Snape told [14:55] <MrMcGonagall> And I believe Snape meant it. [14:55] <You_wont_know_who> he could provide a proof [14:56] * NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [14:56] <SoonerGryffindor> we just don't know the reason. DD was about to tell Harry at the end of HBP, but hesitated [14:56] <cloudpic> I'm sorry... I must go. Can't wait to read this chat in transcript! [14:56] <Expelliarmas> i don't think DD would require proof [14:56 This post has been edited by SoonerGryffindor**: Mar 11 2007, 05:58 PM -------------------- This Episode is so big, we needed Hermione's beaded bag WeasleyCast.Com

SoonerGryffindor View Member Profile	Mar 11 2007, 06:05 PM Post #2
WeasleyCast's Hostess With The Mostest Posts: 6,606 Joined: 2:44am February 20, 2006 Location: At The Burrow taking cooking lessons from Molly	[14:56] <SoonerGryffindor> bye cloudpic [14:56] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I could easily pull out the "huge mistakes" quote from Dumbledore... it's the first thing i thought when he died, that he had made one of those huge mistakes in trusting snape [14:56] <MafaldaWeasley> bye cloudpic!!! [14:56] <futureweasley> I don't think it was "blind" trust...given the information DD was provided, and information that he trusted, he came to the conclusion to trust rather than not trust [14:56] <futureweasley> bye CP [14:56] * cloudpic has quit [Bye] [14:56] <Aislinn> I wonder if Dumbledore's trust is not that he trusts Snape to be loyal, but that he trusts Snape to act consistently for Snape [14:56] <You_wont_know_who> bye cp [14:56] <SoonerGryffindor> that "huge mistake" quote is there to be a red herring [14:56] <Expelliarmas> that's a darned good point, Aislinn [14:56] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think DD would trust him for nothing, specially knowing that Snape would teach kids, that he so much loved to protect [14:57] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> Do any of the teachers have famaily members [14:57] <SoonerGryffindor> not when it come to Harry. That's too big of a risk for DD to take [14:57] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha, exactly, that's what i thought because it was the FIRST thing i thought of... the truth is never what i first think [14:57] <You_wont_know_who> Aislinn - I agree [14:57] <Aislinn> it's not a risk, if he is a good judge of character, sooner [14:57] <Aislinn> And I think Dd is a superb judge of character [14:57] <nympheart> Interesting, Aislinn, it involves judge of character, but that only works effectively as long as the situation makes no sudden unexpected changes [14:58] <MafaldaWeasley> I wonder if Fawkes can sense disloyaltie [14:58] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> do you think that he might have done something along with his tale, to make DD believe? [14:58] <You_wont_know_who> Dumbledore is a good judge but everybody can make a mistake [14:58] <MafaldaWeasley> We know he can sense loyalty but what about disloyalty? [14:58] <futureweasley> you mean like an imperious or a potion or something, Chocolate? [14:58] <MrMcGonagall> I think his reason was sufficient to convince DD, simply on its merits. [14:58] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> sorry, i mean like he showed that he was sorry in some way, not hoodwinked DD [14:58] <Expelliarmas> DD was not infallible; he did not insist on being secret-keeper for the Potters; he allows people to act of their own free will [14:58] <nympheart> I think that's possible chocolate, I was thinking along the lines of Legilimency [14:58] <MafaldaWeasley> Fawkes seems very good to judge character... [14:59] <futureweasley> yes Expie, he is the ultimate teacher in that regard [14:59] <Aislinn> Theowyn’s essay argues that Snape was the one who alerted the Order to go to the Ministry to rescue Harry, yet Dumbledore was no where around. What were Snape’s motives for doing this? [14:59] <Expelliarmas> DD would not use legilimency on someone; too noble [14:59] <JaneMarple9> fawkes seems to know who is good or bad [14:59] * NYBookworm has joined #lounge [14:59] <MafaldaWeasley> If DD had made Legimens on Snape, could he be able to disguise a few things? Like keep a part in secret? [14:59] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> dd uses legilimency on harry [14:59] <nympheart> sorry, I meant Snape used Legilimency [14:59] <futureweasley> hi nyb [14:59] <Aislinn> I find it interesting that Snape would not have been able to get a hold of DD directly [14:59] <You_wont_know_who> Snape needs Harry to survive - as simple as that [14:59] <SoonerGryffindor> Yes, Snape is the one who alered them [15:00] <MafaldaWeasley> Keep the disguise [15:00] <Aislinn> since we see that they can do this in the next book [15:00] <nympheart> I think Snape hassled Sirius while delivering the message [15:00] <Expelliarmas> Snape was not able to send a patronus to DD; hmmmm fishy [15:00] <MafaldaWeasley> ahh never thought of it, Expie [15:00] <SoonerGryffindor> its very possible he did not know where he was [15:00] <MafaldaWeasley> good point [15:00] <mollywobbles23> I think his motives were good. He could have not contacted the Order and let the kids die. [15:00] <You_wont_know_who> he might not be able to produce a Patronus at all [15:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think so too, molly [15:00] <SoonerGryffindor> he can, Jo said it would be important [15:01] <Expelliarmas> Why would he need to know where DD was? shouldnt the patronus seek out its target? [15:01] <Aislinn> I also think that he may have seen it the way that he told Bella in Spinner's End - he was sending in the Order against some of the cream of the crop DE's - it may have been just what he wanted to see happen [15:01] <SoonerGryffindor> well, we really don't know for sure how that works Expie [15:01] <mollywobbles23> how do we know he didn't contact DD? I don't remember. [15:01] <nympheart> I like that, ywkw, he did teach a method other than Patronus to his DADA students [15:01] <SoonerGryffindor> maybe you have to know where someone is to send a Patronus [15:01] * Evreka has joined #lounge [15:01] <Expelliarmas> i think he saw it as a chance to take out some Order members, without getting his hands dirty [15:01] <futureweasley> I like that idea, too, YWKW [15:01] <MafaldaWeasley> hi evreka [15:01] <Expelliarmas> Snape himself never joins the fray at the Ministry [15:01] <dumbleydore18> I think DD was trying to do something else, I am sure Snape notified DD of going to the ministry, but as DD was caught up on something else, probably could not make it right away. It is odd however that DD did not come to Harry's aid right away like the Order did. What was he doing? THis is oddly similar to the missing day in SS/PS/ [15:01] <Evreka> Hi, sorry I am late [15:02] <You_wont_know_who> hi Evreka [15:02] <Aislinn> hi evreka [15:02] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape has to be able to make a patronus. Jo said his patronus is importnat [15:02] <Aislinn> yes [15:02] <mollywobbles23> maybe DD was just farther away. [15:02] <mollywobbles23> it took longer for him to be contacted. [15:02] <Evreka> What's the question? [15:02] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> hhhhhmmmmmmmmm [15:02] <nympheart> that might be what's important about it [15:02] <futureweasley> it's interesting that we don't know what that Patronus is [15:02] * Theowyn has quit [Bye] [15:02] <Aislinn> It is also suggested in this essay that perhaps Snape feels guilty for Lily’s death because he loved her. Do you think he has any remorse for his actions? [15:02] <mollywobbles23> yes [15:02] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> wasn't there a really long time between Harry telling Snape, and them actually going to the ministry? it seems to me like a lot more time passed than it should have between Snape allerting the order and them coming to help [15:02] <MrMcGonagall> Yep. [15:02] *** aranel_parmadil has joined #lounge [15:02] <Expelliarmas> heya, aranel [15:02] <You_wont_know_who> nononononononononono [15:02] <nympheart> if he doesn't, he will [15:02] <MafaldaWeasley> Ow, my goodness! I don't think he ever loved Lily [15:03] <Aislinn> yes chocolate [15:03] <aranel_parmadil> hi expel [15:03] <Expelliarmas> I can't see Snape loving anyone [15:03] <Evreka> urgh no! [15:03] <aranel_parmadil> including himself, expel [15:03] <MrMcGonagall> It may have only been the affection of close friendship, but it was something. [15:03] <SoonerGryffindor> HarryPotterFan, please look at the top of your screen [15:03] <Aislinn> true aranel [15:03] <snitchsnatcher> I think he loved narcissa. [15:03] <Expelliarmas> true, aranel [15:03] <Evreka> Umm I read that a bit wrong [15:03] <MrMcGonagall> That was the reason DD trusted him. Love. [15:03] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think he had any feeling whatsoever for lily [15:03] <futureweasley> I think Snape is capable of love...that's why Jo hasn't said he is "unredeemable [15:03] <nympheart> how about "drooled over" instead of "loved?" [15:03] <Expelliarmas> I think he would claim he loved someone; whether he did nor not, that's another story [15:04] <SoonerGryffindor> the thought of shipping Snape with anyone turns my stomach [15:04] <futureweasley> lol nymph...fair point [15:04] <You_wont_know_who> Snape didn't love Lilly [15:04] <Joyhawk2121> I think he liked her but disliked her liking james [15:04] <Evreka> He might feel remorse every now and then, but not over Lily [15:04] <You_wont_know_who> never [15:04] <Expelliarmas> I agree with that Sooner [15:04] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> "" Are Snape and Narcissa related [15:04] <You_wont_know_who> I agree Sooner, Expe [15:04] <Evreka> me too generally [15:04] <SoonerGryffindor> HarryPotterfan [15:04] * futureweasley loves shipping Snape...just not with Lily [15:04] <Evreka> agree with sooner [15:04] <MrMcGonagall> Snape having some sort of affection for Lily explains an awful lot in the series. [15:04] <SoonerGryffindor> Pleas read the top of your screen [15:04] <Aislinn> Moving on to the Flight of the Prince Scene…why didn’t Snape gloat that he had just killed Dumbledore to Harry? [15:04] <You_wont_know_who> Snape is too immature for a ship [15:05] <nympheart> I agree MrM [15:05] <Evreka> But I think he probably loved at some point Narcissa [15:05] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think snape totally respected her, and unlike James or Harry, she earned respect. by being good a potions despite being a mudblood, she proved herself [15:05] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree evreka [15:05] <Expelliarmas> no time to gloat [15:05] <Evreka> Because he was FLEEING [15:05] <nympheart> He was more occupied with getting himself and Draco out safely [15:05] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think Snape wanted to kill Dd. [15:05] <futureweasley> I don't think he felt like gloating was appropriate [15:05] <You_wont_know_who> no time and no sense of achievement [15:05] <SoonerGryffindor> becayse it was the most painful thing he ever had to do [15:05] <You_wont_know_who> he killed the man but it wasn't a fair fight [15:05] <Evreka> hm [15:05] <MafaldaWeasley> I didn't have time for it [15:05] <futureweasley> no, not like that Sooner [15:05] <dumbleydore18> he felt horrible about what he did...he didn't want to kill DD, but he knew he had to inorder to save himself and Draco and DD knew that [15:06] <SoonerGryffindor> he is described as being in as much pain as fang [15:06] <SoonerGryffindor> he killed the only person who ever trusted him [15:06] <Aislinn> I agree that he was mostly focused on getting Draco out, and I don't believe that any but the most unremittingly evil characters would gloat about killing [15:06] <futureweasley> I don't think that Snape actually felt "pain" or "remorse" for it...like he actually lost something by his actions [15:06] <snitchsnatcher> No Sooner, because it exposed him [15:06] <Joyhawk2121> in his sick way teaching Harry a lesson [15:06] <You_wont_know_who> Dumbledore had been disarmed earlier [15:06] <Expelliarmas> I disagree, DD18, he didn't feel horrible about it; he was in a hurry to get out [15:06] <SoonerGryffindor> nononono [15:06] <mollywobbles23> he didn't gloat, but he did take time to say "Don't call me a coward!" I think [15:06] <mollywobbles23> Snape was in pain. [15:06] <SoonerGryffindor> he was in severe mental agony [15:06] <Evreka> no well I hope he was in at least as much pain as fang... [15:06] <Aislinn> I was losing a lot at that point [15:06] <Expelliarmas> I think he was focused on his mission [15:06] <futureweasley> I don't buy that [15:06] <Aislinn> He was [15:06] <MafaldaWeasley> Maybe it was his first kill [15:06] * You_wont_know_who left #lounge [] [15:06] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he had done something extremely brave and noble, and knew that nobody would know it for what it was [15:06] <mollywobbles23> maybe [15:07] <SoonerGryffindor> exactly chocotlate [15:07] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think so, chocolate. [15:07] <Evreka> Hardly Mafalda He was a DE long before jhe came to Albus [15:07] <Aislinn> we don't know that chocolate [15:07] <nympheart> yes, molly, but at that point Draco was safe and snape lost his temper [15:07] <MrMcGonagall> It was not brave and it was not noble. It was his own skin over DD's. [15:07] <MafaldaWeasley> Does that make him a killer? [15:07] <Aislinn> killing is not what I would call a noble act [15:07] <MafaldaWeasley> being a DE makes somebody a killer? [15:07] <SoonerGryffindor> it depends on the circumstances [15:07] <aranel_parmadil> depends what it is for aislinn [15:07] <Expelliarmas> no, killing an unarmed man is not noble [15:07] <Joyhawk2121> if he thinks thats brave and noble then he is evil [15:07] <Evreka> Exactly MrMcGonagall [15:08] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> brb [15:08] <Expelliarmas> it's rather sickening, actually [15:08] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he was putting his own freedom, his entire life aside, and his loyalities and the people who trusted him only because Dumbledore trusted him, aside for the greater good [15:08] <SoonerGryffindor> He did the right thing rather than the easy thing, IMO [15:08] <Evreka> I think they have to do that yes [15:08] <nympheart> agreed, expie [15:08] <mollywobbles23> Notice that Snape never hurt Harry until Harry called him a coward. [15:08] <Aislinn> we don't know that chocolate [15:08] <MrMcGonagall> I think it's the other way around, Sooner. [15:08] <Aislinn> that is only true if you believe that he is loyal to DD [15:08] <Expelliarmas> it was a cowardly act [15:08] <SoonerGryffindor> yes Molly, and I think that is quite telling [15:08] <Evreka> there was no time to fight Harry [15:08] <mollywobbles23> to Harry's eyes. [15:08] <Aislinn> and only if Dd asked him to do that [15:08] <SoonerGryffindor> he was anything but a coward that night [15:08] <Joyhawk2121> yup Expie [15:08] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think all DE are killers...I think they have their especiallities [15:08] <Evreka> he was desperate to get out [15:08] <Aislinn> which I have a great deal of difficulty believing [15:08] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> well, either way, he was throwing his life away, no matter who he was loyal to [15:09] <dumbleydore18> I agree Expie, it was a cowardly act that Snape did not stand for his right in saving DD [15:09] <Evreka> and IF in the heat of the moment he'd hurt harry badly Voldemort would have had his hide for it [15:09] <MafaldaWeasley> I think he made his opition, really. He knew DD was dying being his help, and he picked a side. [15:09] <Expelliarmas> I can't see DD asking to be murdered; to have Snape wrongly blamed for his murder and condemened for it; not something DD would do [15:09] <Aislinn> he was changing his circumstances, definitely, and that did give him great anguish, but the reasons for the anguish are yet to be learned [15:09] * CarpeDiem has joined #lounge [15:09] <futureweasley> he would have died (if you believe he took the Unbreakable Vow), had he fought for DD's life [15:09] <Evreka> brb [15:09] <SoonerGryffindor> Either way, DD would have died [15:10] <SoonerGryffindor> does any one argue that? [15:10] <futureweasley> yay CD! [15:10] <Joyhawk2121> I dont Sooner [15:10] <futureweasley> I'm talking about Snape dying [15:10] <SoonerGryffindor> so..... [15:10] <MafaldaWeasley> No, sooner. I think Snape picked a side because DD would have died anyway [15:10] <SoonerGryffindor> DD was dead no matter what [15:10] <futureweasley> Snape would have died if he fought for DD's life in that situation [15:10] * nympheart has quit [Bye] [15:10] * nympheart has joined #lounge [15:10] <Expelliarmas> DD would not have asked to be killed by anyone's hand and have that person eternally condemned for it [15:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I agree Expelliarmas, I don't think that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable vow for the very reason that he wouldn't let Snape kill him without some way of redeeming himself [15:10] <Aislinn> Snape says that the Dark Lord wanted them to leave Harry there in the scene Flight of the Prince, but was he telling the complete truth when he said this? Would Voldemort truly have been unhappy if someone brought Harry to him? [15:10] <dumbleydore18> how do we know that DD would have "died either way?" [15:10] <MafaldaWeasley> good point Expier [15:10] <SoonerGryffindor> It is canon that DD kew about the UV [15:11] <nympheart> I think Snape was telling the truth [15:11] <futureweasley> really? [15:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i don't think it is, sooner [15:11] <JaneMarple9> i am here but multi-tasking smile [15:11] <Expelliarmas> LV has a great need to take out Harry by himself; he has resisted allowing any DE to take that credit [15:11] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that LV would have been very happy to have had Harry brought back [15:11] <nympheart> Harry overheard about the UV and told DD didn't he? [15:11] <MrMcGonagall> I can believe that LV wants to take care of Harry himself, but I don't think he'd have a problem with the Boy Wonder being delivered to his doorstep. [15:11] <MafaldaWeasley> I think so. I think LV is too proud, he want have all the glory for killing Harry. Besisdes, he won't have a rival sayin, I killied the one that kicked you botom [15:12] <mollywobbles23> I don't think [15:12] <mollywobbles23> so [15:12] *** You_wont_know_who has joined #lounge [15:12] <Expelliarmas> if anyone intervenes in that capture; then LV's power will be questioned; LV wants to take away all hope from the wizarding world [15:12] <Expelliarmas> Just like Harry will proceed on his own in the final showdown; so will LV [15:12] <nympheart> LV needs to kill Harry on his own, both for his ego and to regain the respect that he lost or thinks he lost when Harry got away. I think LV wants to avoid helpof any kind [15:12] <Aislinn> I agree, expie - it is personal for him now, and something he needs to prove to himself and his DE's [15:12] <MrMcGonagall> I think LV is still concerned about what he doesn't know in the prophecy. [15:12] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, nymph. i totally agree [15:12] <SoonerGryffindor> In the confusion, who would have known? [15:12] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i doubt that LV thinks it's some kind of sport to hunt down Harry... i think he'd be fine with being presented with the only one with the power to vanquish him [15:13] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M, I think you're right [15:13] <Expelliarmas> not just to himself and the DEs; to the wizarding community; without hope, they will not fight him [15:13] <SoonerGryffindor> LV wasnt too proud to have Peter and BCJ do the work for him 2 years ago [15:13] <SoonerGryffindor> what has changed? [15:13] <MrMcGonagall> Well, he has a powerful human from back, for one thing. [15:13] <Aislinn> they didn't kill him though, did they? [15:13] <Expelliarmas> they only lured Harry there; the plan belonged to LV [15:13] <dumbleydore18> Snape was trying to protect Harry, maybe the Vow was to also get rid of Harry ontop of DD, but seeing as DD his harry, no harm came to him. If SNape had brought Harry to LV alive, LV would have been upset with Snape because Harry would have been alive. If LV intenstions were to have been to kill Harry as well. [15:13] <nympheart> LV has the physical strenght to opperate on his own now and Harry has escaped twice more [15:13] <Expelliarmas> and they needed Harry's blood [15:13] <Aislinn> they were following their Dark Lord's orders [15:14] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont buy for one second that those were LV's orders [15:14] <Aislinn> and when BCJ went to kill him, he was completely mad at that point [15:14] <Expelliarmas> the followed orders to a T [15:14] <MrMcGonagall> I think Snape did leave DD behind on purpose. [15:14] <SoonerGryffindor> pretty sure Snape made that up on the flu [15:14] <Joyhawk2121> they do follow order to the T [15:14] <SoonerGryffindor> fly [15:14] <MrMcGonagall> II mean Harry [15:14] <Evreka> back, sorry [15:14] <Expelliarmas> "He is mine!!!" That's pretty plain, Sooner [15:14] <Joyhawk2121> I agree Expie [15:14] <Aislinn> yes it is [15:14] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, but that only means he wants to kill him [15:15] <SoonerGryffindor> means nothing about capture [15:15] <Expelliarmas> "Do not interfere!" Clear as a bell, even to the thickest DE coughCrabbeGoylecough [15:15] <Aislinn> Harry calls Snape a coward during this scene, and he loses control emotionally. Theowyn asks, “Does Snape consider himself a coward for not doing more to save James and Lily—or Dumbledore? [15:15] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hahaha expelliarmas [15:15] <nympheart> lol expie [15:15] <MrMcGonagall> nope [15:15] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Snape has been living in his own personal hell since that night. [15:15] <MafaldaWeasley> I think he consider hermione much far from understanding his brilliant brain [15:16] <Evreka> Not a chance! [15:16] <You_wont_know_who> Snape never will consider himself a coward [15:16] <CarpeDiem> I wonder if that was one of the reasons he was persuaded to join the DE to begin with. Perhpas the word "coward" has bothered him his whole life. [15:16] <dumbleydore18> I agree with Sooner. [15:16] <Expelliarmas> Snape is a coward; from the way he treated Neville and Harry in class; to the way he killed DD [15:16] <nympheart> I think maybe he sees himself as a coward for hiding between two sides [15:17] <nympheart> Snape has never actively in public view gone after what he wants [15:17] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape reminds me of a hurt, wounded animal. He lashes out from within his own pain. [15:17] <You_wont_know_who> Snape is a coward but his personal opinion about himself is rather high [15:17] <MafaldaWeasley> good point Carpe [15:17] <mollywobbles23> I think we have a skewed view as a society as to what is brave and what is not. Being brave is simply doing something because it needs to be done despite one's own fears. It doesn't mean that what must be done is a happy or good thing. [15:17] <Aislinn> His strong reaction to the word indicates that it is a hot button for him; on some level he believes it of himself, or he wouldn't react to it so strongly [15:17] * leakylurker has joined #lounge [15:17] <Evreka> IMO Snape has wilfully had one foot in each camp since 1981, so he has definitely not played coward [15:17] <futureweasley> hi leakylurker [15:17] <Evreka> because that's really risky [15:17] <Joyhawk2121> Snapes looks at cowards as weak [15:17] <leakylurker> hey guys just lurking [15:17] <MrMcGonagall> Snape is more an opportunist than a coward, I think. [15:17] <SoonerGryffindor> he also looks at emotions as weak, but we know he has them [15:17] <Evreka> however the ultimate reason is to always be on the winning side [15:17] <dumbleydore18> brb [15:17] <Expelliarmas> That word stung him [15:17] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree MrM [15:17] <You_wont_know_who> he is a coward because he can't face his own mistakes [15:17] <Aislinn> he has not acted the coward,(maybe) but that doesn't mean he doesn't think it of himself [15:17] <aranel_parmadil> he taunts sirius about his lack of courage - as he sees it [15:18] <SoonerGryffindor> hit a nerve. Harry has an uncanny ability to push Snape's buttons [15:18] <nympheart> I think it also may have been a sensitive spot back from the days of his rivalry with James. Brave was one thing James was as a Gryffindor and Snape wasn't [15:18] <You_wont_know_who> that was what stung him in this word imo [15:18] <JaneMarple9> that word coward certainly affected snape [15:18] <JaneMarple9> hit a nerve - exactly sooner [15:18] <CarpeDiem> Yes, very good point Sooner. Snape [15:18] <CarpeDiem> Bah! [15:18] <SoonerGryffindor> lol CD [15:18] <CarpeDiem> Snape's emotions are like granite until he's around Harry [15:18] <You_wont_know_who> or James [15:19] <MrMcGonagall> Harry does bring out Snape's worst side. [15:19] <Evreka> or viceversa [15:19] <You_wont_know_who> it's not Harry's fault [15:19] <CarpeDiem> He seems to be the only one to bring out anything from Snape. most of the time he keeps them well hidden...from everyone [15:19] <Expelliarmas> Oh, Snape's emotions also come to the forefront around Neville [15:19] <mollywobbles23> I think Snape knows that he has been cowardly in the past, but he feels that what he did was anything but cowardly. He just picked a side, whether that was the side he wanted to be associated with or not. I mean, here's a guy who just a few years prior was thisclose to getting a Merlin First Class and now he's wanted as a criminal. [15:19] <MafaldaWeasley> yes, expie [15:19] <Aislinn> Did the ultimate act of killing Dumbledore make Snape unforgivable? [15:19] <MafaldaWeasley> he's very mean to neville [15:20] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Another time that snape sort of looses it with harry is during occlumency when Harry sees his parents in the mirror, and Snape's emotions bust out a bit... I think it's because of seeing Lily. Lily's part of Harry is what pushes his buttons, i think [15:20] <mollywobbles23> no [15:20] <aranel_parmadil> depends why he did it aislinn [15:20] <Expelliarmas> In my estimation, yes [15:20] <SoonerGryffindor> no [15:20] <leakylurker> not if it was agreed prior [15:20] <nympheart> no, not in the long-term [15:20] <SoonerGryffindor> but I agree with aranel. It all depends on why [15:20] <CarpeDiem> Until we know more from Snape or DD, yes. [15:20] <MrMcGonagall> There's a reason it's called an Unforgivable Curse. [15:20] <You_wont_know_who> unforgivable for this particular crime [15:20] <Expelliarmas> DD would never have someone kill him and take universal condemnation; DD did not roll that way [15:20] <MafaldaWeasley> well, he's sould is splited...this says something [15:20] <Evreka> He used an Unforgivable Curse, so.... [15:20] <leakylurker> unless he knew he was dying anyway? [15:21] <Aislinn> the only thing that would make it forgivable, for me, would be if Dd has actually been dead from the ring horcrux the whole year, and had just been holding it off "stoppering death" until this point [15:21] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> "killing is not as easy as the innocent believe" Dumbledore doesn't see snape as innocent, that's for sure [15:21] <CarpeDiem> In Harry's eyes even an explination from Dumbledor may not allow him to forgive Snape. [15:21] <Evreka> agree Carpe [15:21] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> snape knows death and killing, whereas draco does not [15:21] <Evreka> not for me either... wink [15:21] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> hi [15:21] <MafaldaWeasley> agree expie, besides it would be extremely selfish of DD, sentencing one (snape) so that other could go free, D5racao, harry) [15:21] <futureweasley> wow, Aislinn...I had never even considered [15:21] <futureweasley> what an interesting theory [15:21] <CarpeDiem> Ainslinn...that is an excellent point [15:22] <SoonerGryffindor> what is DD was already dead from the potion Harry fed him? [15:22] <leakylurker> unless DD knew that Snape would be able to explain in the future' [15:22] <You_wont_know_who> Aislinn - agreed [15:22] <SoonerGryffindor> which is very possible [15:22] <mollywobbles23> I think that just because wizarding society calls them Unforgivable, doesn't mean they are inherently that. It depends on who uses them and why. If a member of the Order used an Unforgivable Curse on a DE, they would be forgiven. Until we know the whole story behind why Snape killed DD and "Severus...please" we can't judge. [15:22] <Evreka> Now that's an interesting theory Aislinn [15:22] <SoonerGryffindor> what is what Snape did prevented Harryh from being his murderere? [15:22] <MafaldaWeasley> stopping dead means you're alive, eh? or not? [15:22] <HarryPotterfan_0916_> Does any of the teachers have famaily [15:22] <futureweasley> a clue that isn't seen as such...coming back to rear its ugly head again...God, Jo's good [15:22] * Joyhawk2121 has quit [Bye] [15:22] <SoonerGryffindor> would it be forgivable then? [15:22] <nympheart> Jo has said "dead is dead" I don't think she'd present a dead character as though he were alive [15:22] <MafaldaWeasley> how can you stop dead for somebody who's already dead? [15:23] <Expelliarmas> I found DD to be quite alive during he school year; he walked, he talked, breathed, etc. It was murder. [15:23] <futureweasley> Snape wouldn't have killed him then...he's still an innocent if that's the case [15:23] <Evreka> What do you mean Sooner? [15:23] <Aislinn> Should Snape have died rather than killed Dumbledore? [15:23] <Evreka> Harry would never have killed Albus???? [15:23] <MrMcGonagall> yes [15:23] <You_wont_know_who> yes [15:23] <Evreka> YES! [15:23] <dumbleydore18> yes [15:23] <snitchsnatcher> yes [15:23] <MafaldaWeasley> i think you can stop dead for somebody who's dying... [15:23] <SoonerGryffindor> NO [15:24] <futureweasley> absolutely [15:24] <You_wont_know_who> Dumbledore would have died for him [15:24] <leakylurker> no, not if he had a greater ability to help Harry in the end [15:24] <nympheart> I don't like DD, but yes [15:24] <aranel_parmadil> Again, it depends aislinn. There may have been a specific plan in place [15:24] <SoonerGryffindor> He would have died anyway!!!! [15:24] <Evreka> That's what we demand of Peter - why should Severus be different? [15:24] <MafaldaWeasley> DD was dead, people. Snape wouldn't be able to save him, so he killed him [15:24] <SoonerGryffindor> why sacrifice your plans [15:24] <JaneMarple9> harry couldn't kill anyone except voldie i think [15:24] * Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [15:24] <Aislinn> I think he should have died, rather than kill Dd [15:24] <JaneMarple9> dumbledore died for a reason i am sure [15:24] <mollywobbles23> don't know. We don't know what all was said when Snape and DD were speaking in the woods and otherwise when Hagrid wasn't overhearing things. [15:24] <nympheart> I don't think the "he'd have died anyway" thing holds much water, everyone dies sometime, but that doesn't make killing right [15:24] <Expelliarmas> I will die eventually, but I sure don't want any help getting there [15:24] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree jane [15:25] <CarpeDiem> I belive that was Snape's wish. DD convinced him otherwise. Aislinn's theory goes right along with that [15:25] <Evreka> Besides Snape brought this on himself by that Vow [15:25] <MrMcGonagall> DD has worked far too long toward Snape's rehabilitation to ask him to throw it away by committing murder. [15:25] <You_wont_know_who> true Evreka [15:25] <Aislinn> agreed Mr M [15:25] <Evreka> exactly Expie [15:25] <MafaldaWeasley> I think he was poisoned beyonf fixin' and Snape knew that when he saw DD, then he picked a side... [15:25] <NYBookworm> it depends on your definition of "should" - we need to know all the factors that played into that decision, for example there is a difference between nurder and self-defense even though in both situation the person ends up being killed [15:25] <Expelliarmas> true, MrM [15:25] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think that he was dying, and that he needed snape, which is why he wanted snape immediately and told harry to get him, but as soon as Malfoy came, he stopped harry from fulfilling that mission. [15:25] <Expelliarmas> DD would never do such a thing [15:25] * CalamityJamie has joined #lounge [15:25] <dumbleydore18> if snapes intentions wee bad and nothing was planned between him and DD, then yest Snape should have died for the cause of saving DD. Whether or not DD would have died anyways, the fact that Snape killed him instead of dieing himself, shows cowardice [15:25] <MafaldaWeasley> it was a pratical matter, molly [15:26] <Expelliarmas> I can't see DD asking to be killed as a part of a suicide; he valued life [15:26] <Evreka> me neither Expie [15:26] <MafaldaWeasley> I agree Expie. So unlikely DD [15:26] <leakylurker> DD may have wnated Snape to be the one to live... to help Harry [15:26] <aranel_parmadil> but he had no fear of death expel [15:26] <SoonerGryffindor> but what if DD was dead no matter what? Don't you think its different then? [15:26] <Evreka> and he had reasons to live [15:26] <SoonerGryffindor> not exactly suicide if you are gonig to die [15:26] <You_wont_know_who> Expe - I can't see Dumbledore as A suicidal type either [15:26] <Evreka> no [15:26] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> exactly lurder [15:26] <MafaldaWeasley> no. [15:26] <Expelliarmas> No fear of death--true; but not the type to exit early either [15:26] <MrMcGonagall> Only in Snape's mind, Sooner. [15:26] <nympheart> I agree expie, DD was also unafraid of death, if in theory he wanted to die, I don't think he would have had a problem committing suicide himself [15:26] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> lurker!~ [15:26] <Aislinn> no, it is still asking Snape to tear his soul [15:26] <You_wont_know_who> Dumbledore deserved a dignified death [15:26] <NYBookworm> I think that DD would certainly be willing to die if he knew it was for the greater good, and it was waht was needed to keep Harry on his path towards taking down L:V [15:27] <leakylurker> DD also protecting DRACO' soul here, by having Snape kill DD instead, no? [15:27] <MafaldaWeasley> exactly aislinn [15:27] <Aislinn> and I don't believe that Dd would ask him to do that [15:27] <Evreka> Would you not call it murder to shoot a cancer patient who will die tomorrow? [15:27] <You_wont_know_who> not a sudden death like that [15:27] <Expelliarmas> Draco wasn't going to kill DD [15:27] <futureweasley> I think maybe DD GOT a dignified death...it could have been on his terms [15:27] <SoonerGryffindor> DD knew he was going to die no matter what. Why ruin all of your careful plans? [15:27] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> yes lurker! [15:27] <SoonerGryffindor> That makes no sense [15:27] <dumbleydore18> I disagree Lurker, if Snape were to have have helped Harry he would not have fled Hogwars [15:27] <Expelliarmas> I would prosecute for that Evreka [15:27] <CalamityJamie> Could be Dumbledore was willing to sacrifice himself and part of Snape's soul to save Harry and Draco. [15:27] <dumbleydore18> Hogwarts* [15:27] <Aislinn> It is pointed out in the essay that actual hatred for the person is not required to kill them. The example she gives when Peter killed Cedric. What was Snape thinking about when he used the Avada Kedavra curse on Dumbledore? [15:27] <SoonerGryffindor> I agree lurker [15:27] <JaneMarple9> draco didn't have the murdering istinct [15:27] <aranel_parmadil> I agree expel. Draco could not and would not have killed dd [15:27] <Evreka> I hope so, Expie smile [15:27] <MafaldaWeasley> DD wanted to give Draco an opportunity. [15:27] <Joyhawk2121> a fast death [15:27] <Expelliarmas> revulsion; pentup frustration at having to walk a line for so many years [15:28] * CalamityJamie has quit [Bye] [15:28] <SoonerGryffindor> I think he was full of self-loathing [15:28] <MrMcGonagall> I think Snape blamed DD for putting him in this position. [15:28] <NYBookworm> I think he was think how much he hated having to do what DD was asking him to do [15:28] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't know [15:28] <CarpeDiem> Perhaps he was thinking of someone else? Harry? LV? [15:28] * You_wont_know_who left #lounge [] [15:28] <leakylurker> Not if he had to keep undercover [15:28] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M, that is what I tend to believe as well [15:28] <mollywobbles23> Yeah, he valued life. But, he knew what he was doing when he appointed Snape to the DADA post. He knew Draco was up to something. He was weakened greatly by that potion. He knew if he didn't die, that not only would Snape die, but Draco would be in great, great danger. Self-sacrifice is a huge theme in the books, why is it so hard to believe that DD would sacrifice himself for the better good? He saw death as the next big adventure [15:28] <Evreka> I don't think you need to feel hatred - but you need to MEAN it, not the same thing [15:28] <SoonerGryffindor> he was described exactly how Harry was in the cave when Harry fed DD the potion [15:28] <JaneMarple9> he thought he did but in the end he couldn't do it [15:28] <JaneMarple9> there is still hope for draco! [15:28] * JaneMarple9 has quit [Bye] [15:28] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he hated dumbledore for asking him to kill him... he was losing his life of subtlety and freedom from being a known Death Eater [15:28] <nympheart> I think he was thinking about James or Harry or both [15:28] <Evreka> Mean to kill I mean [15:28] <SoonerGryffindor> I honestly think that what Snape did that night was to prevent Harry from becoming a murderer [15:28] <Expelliarmas> Again, DD would not ask anyone to kill him [15:28] <SoonerGryffindor> because I think the potion was killing him [15:29] <mollywobbles23> exactly! Sooner [15:29] <mollywobbles23> the facial expressions! [15:29] <Joyhawk2121> I agree sooner [15:29] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha i don't think so either expelliarmas lol daggone it [15:29] <Evreka> Harry couldn't move! [15:29] <Expelliarmas> Harry was frozen by DD's spell; he wasn't going to kill anyone [15:29] <futureweasley> prevent Harry from murder?! Harry couldn't even do a crucio...how was he in fear of becoming a murderer? [15:29] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry fed DD the potion in the cave [15:29] <Joyhawk2121> but he was weak it seemed thru the whole book [15:29] <SoonerGryffindor> that potion was going to kill DD [15:29] <SoonerGryffindor> thus, making Harry his murderer [15:29] <MafaldaWeasley> that doesn't make harry a murder [15:29] <Aislinn> which DD did not believe would kill him, sooner [15:29] <Expelliarmas> DD was alive; Snape had no reason to know about the cave, Sooner [15:29] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> why did DD freeze harry and not Malfoy? [15:29] <CarpeDiem> Future - Harry would have blamed himself if the potion would have killed DD [15:29] * CarpeDiem has quit [Bye] [15:29] <Aislinn> we don't know that it would have [15:29] <SoonerGryffindor> we dont know that Aislinn [15:29] <Expelliarmas> No one but Harry knew about the cave [15:29] <nympheart> if DD really wanted to die to save Harry from being a killer, why didn't he just jump off the tower? [15:30] <Expelliarmas> Even McG had no idea where they went [15:30] <leakylurker> to hlep snape keep his cover with the Deaters [15:30] <SoonerGryffindor> because Snape needed to do it to cement his loyalty in the eyes of the DE's [15:30] <Aislinn> if he did believe it would, then he lied to Harry, and I don't believe that he did [15:30] * CarpeDiem has joined #lounge [15:30] <Evreka> true Expie, also we know nothing of how dangerous that potion was, nor could Snape know [15:30] <futureweasley> I just don't think he would have seen it that way..and Ron and Hermione would have helped him come to grips [15:30] <SoonerGryffindor> he said it would not kill him initially [15:30] <SoonerGryffindor> he never said it would not kill him [15:30] <nympheart> cover with the DEs doesn't do DDs plans any good if the Order sees Snape as a traitor [15:30] <Evreka> And Albus wanted Snape's help to recover originally [15:30] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he said it wouldn't kill him immediately [15:31] <futureweasley> along with the rest of his support system [15:31] <SoonerGryffindor> I think DD was a dead man as soon as he started drinking the potion in the cave [15:31] <MafaldaWeasley> i think snape knows more about potions and dark arts. I think he could see what it was [15:31] <Evreka> so he didn't think it was hopeless [15:31] <leakylurker> at this point it may be more inportant for Snape to be in good terms with the DE, not the order [15:31] <Joyhawk2121> I agree sooner [15:31] <CarpeDiem> Future, he blames himself for Cedric and Sirius in some way, doesnt he? [15:31] <SoonerGryffindor> I agree lurker [15:31] <Expelliarmas> he may have been, Sooner; but Snape did not know that [15:31] <Aislinn> I think that he could have been treated [15:31] <Evreka> Why would it take so long then [15:31] <SoonerGryffindor> we will never know [15:31] <mollywobbles23> Harry: "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing..." Snape: "and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." [15:31] <dumbleydore18> I am taking into conscideration the thing that MEM said about the unforgivables. One has to mean the spell, I don't think that Snape actually meant to kill DD because DD sort of "flew" and hit the wall. Since Snape did not have a lot of meaning behind his avada, the killing curse somewhat back fired, or did not work the same way that it did when Peter killed Cedric. If this makes sense. [15:31] <Evreka> me too Aislinn [15:31] <SoonerGryffindor> well.... eventually we will [15:31] <Aislinn> Theowyn discusses how it is not in Dumbledore’s nature to beg someone to spare his life because Dumbledore does not fear death. Do you agree with this statement? [15:31] <futureweasley> CD, he does...but he's able to distinguish between necessary and frivolous [15:31] <SoonerGryffindor> yes [15:32] <leakylurker> yes! [15:32] <MafaldaWeasley> totally [15:32] <Aislinn> I don't believe that he was begging Snape to spare his life [15:32] <SoonerGryffindor> what dd was begging for that night. It was not his life [15:32] <Aislinn> I think he was pleading with him to do the right thing [15:32] <Expelliarmas> DD does not fear death; he was not begging for his life--he was begging Snape not to condemn his own self [15:32] <mollywobbles23> yes [15:32] <MafaldaWeasley> i think he was telling something else to Snape... [15:32] <Joyhawk2121> right sooner [15:32] <leakylurker> he was begging for snape to carry out the plan! [15:32] <SoonerGryffindor> I think he was begging for Snape to follow through [15:32] <nympheart> yes, but it doesn't make sense to beg to die in the situation either [15:32] <MrMcGonagall> I think DD was begging Snape not to do something so heinous and detrimental to his own soul. [15:32] <Expelliarmas> in essence, he was begging for Snape's life [15:32] <CarpeDiem> Yes, I think DD was begging Snape to complete the plan they had laid out. [15:32] <futureweasley> I think DD was begging Severus to stick to the plan [15:32] <Aislinn> yes expie [15:32] <Evreka> no, because at this time Albus has found out how many Horcruxes there are left to destroy and how much job that will take [15:32] <Aislinn> and Mr M [15:33] <MrMcGonagall> DD was asking for his loyalty, and he didn't get it. [15:33] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree - i think the might have been apologizing, too, for not having a better path for Snape to follow [15:33] <Evreka> and how would Harry know how to destroy the one he was supposed to have in his pocket [15:33] <futureweasley> wow MrMcG...that makes sense, too [15:33] <MrMcGonagall> Dd asked for a sacrifice on Snape's part, and he didn't get it. [15:33] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape did the math really quick. He knew Harry was up there under the cloak [15:33] <Evreka> Makes sense Mr McG [15:33] <Expelliarmas> DD would not ask Snape to condemn himself--Never. He didn't roll that way [15:33] <nympheart> agreed MrM [15:33] <dumbleydore18> i like that thought of DD begging for Snape. Why would he beg for his life though? The whole "I trust Snape" thing? or something else? [15:33] <Aislinn> I don't think he would either expie [15:34] <SoonerGryffindor> would he have begged Snape to do it to spare Harry being his murderer? [15:34] <SoonerGryffindor> DD admits that when it comes to Harry, nothing else is more important [15:34] <Aislinn> Theowyn draws the conclusion that Dumbledore was referring to a previous agreement made by him and Snape when he uttered the words, “Severus…please…” Did Snape and Dumbledore have a previous agreement? Perhaps an unbreakable vow of their own? [15:34] <SoonerGryffindor> Previous agreement yes, UV no [15:34] <Aislinn> I don't believe that he thought that Harry was a murderer, because I don't believe that he thought he would die from the potion, sooner [15:34] <Evreka> I think he asked for hisa support and help [15:34] <MafaldaWeasley> I don't think DD how have made an UV with Snape [15:35] <MrMcGonagall> There was an understanding - an understanding long ago that Snape had turned from the dark side. [15:35] <leakylurker> I don't think UV, DD likes to trust people to trust them, not to have to force them i think [15:35] <Expelliarmas> No, DD would not enter into an UV [15:35] <SoonerGryffindor> agreed. That;s not how DD rolls [15:35] <Aislinn> definitely not an UV [15:35] <Aislinn> there is NO way that DD would ever do that [15:35] <mollywobbles23> previous agreement is possible, but not the UV because DD trusted Snape. [15:35] <CarpeDiem> I agree with that Aislinn...and if that were the case there would have been a third [15:35] <CarpeDiem> Someone else would know about it [15:35] <nympheart> I agree MrM, it was an understanding, not an actually agreement [15:36] <Evreka> He would never ask another person to committ murder - not for anything in the world [15:36] <dumbleydore18> I don't see DD making an unbreakable with anyone as he knows that people can make different choices or siwtch their plans. I think that when DD went to go "talk to snape about his hand" he was arranging something with him. [15:36] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> ugh, i hate unbreakable vows... if only we knew how they worked better we'd know if there was any way for Snape to have found a loophole. If Dumbledore died on his own accord and not by Draco, would that count as Snape not fulfilling the Unbreakable vow and he would die? because i think Dumbledore would rather sacrifice himself than ask snape to murder him [15:36] <Joyhawk2121> I think DD takes u on your word [15:36] <MafaldaWeasley> i think DD saw Snape had come to a time when he would have to make a deision and he was about to pick the wrong side [15:36] <futureweasley> I think that, essentially, Dumbledore and Snape had some sort of prearrangement...but I don't think that Snape was entering into it for the reasons DD was [15:36] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, Mafalda [15:36] <leakylurker> oooooo future, , for what reason then? [15:36] <MafaldaWeasley> gosh, I'm typing awfully. Sorry everyone. [15:37] <futureweasley> Snape, for self-centered ends...Dumbledore, for the greater good [15:38] <SoonerGryffindor> testing [15:38] <nympheart> i see you sooner [15:38] <futureweasley> lol, are we stalled? [15:38] <MafaldaWeasley> I think that was the runing point foe Snape guys. [15:38] <dumbleydore18> I was just about to see if this was working too lol [15:38] <Evreka> Ah more who wondered [15:39] <leakylurker> we are all pondering future's idea! [15:39] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha we're thinking [15:39] <futureweasley> lol, doubtful! haha [15:39] <MafaldaWeasley> everybody is thinking, that's why we are so quiet [15:39] <MrMcGonagall> Somebody put a Petrificus Totalus on the CB? [15:39] <dumbleydore18> we shall call that pause, contemplative thought pause [15:39] <Expelliarmas> testing [15:39] <nympheart> i like "pondering the mysteries of the HP universe pause" [15:39] <nympheart> i see you expie [15:39] <leakylurker> I have a question about snape can I ask it? [15:39] <Expelliarmas> !deop Aislinn [15:40] <SoonerGryffindor> okay, we have lost our question-asker for a moment [15:40] <SoonerGryffindor> go ahead lurker [15:40] <mollywobbles23> lol [15:40] <MafaldaWeasley> haha [15:40] <MafaldaWeasley> somebody stole aislinn!! hey give her back, bad snuffles!!! [15:40] * Expelliarmas has quit [Bye] [15:40] * Expelliarmas has joined #lounge [15:40] <leakylurker> SOmeone in our off topic thread suggested maybe we will never know about snape's loyalties, even after book 7, do you think this is possible? [15:40] <SoonerGryffindor> what was your questin leakylurker [15:40] <Expelliarmas> !deop Aislinn [15:40] * Aislinn has quit [Bye] [15:40] <SoonerGryffindor> I thnk that is a worst-case scenario, but its possible [15:40] <mollywobbles23> oh my goodness, I hope not [15:41] <dumbleydore18> I hope not! [15:41] <Evreka> I dobn't think so [15:41] * Aislinn has joined #lounge [15:41] <futureweasley> I hope that we have a clear-cut explanation of his actions, LeakyLurker [15:41] <mollywobbles23> I would cry [15:41] <leakylurker> I think iti s a fascinating idea, the debate would live on [15:41] <CarpeDiem> I think that would fit his character very well [15:41] <MafaldaWeasley> I think this is too important to left unsaid [15:41] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> lurker, you're not jo are you? [15:41] <Joyhawk2121> I hope not to [15:41] <dumbleydore18> I would be so upset [15:41] <MrMcGonagall> I think we'll have the measure of Severus Snape after Book 7 [15:41] <SoonerGryffindor> Yay! Aislinn is back! [15:41] <dumbleydore18> I want to know Snapes loyalties [15:41] <Evreka> Jo would be swamped in emails, mails what not [15:41] <snitchsnatcher> That's too open ended for Jo to leave undone [15:41] <leakylurker> It would be like the Mona Lisa! [15:41] <futureweasley> I will be seriously disappointed if I can't do my "I told you so" dance at Prophecy...I've been practicing for going on 2 years [15:41] <MafaldaWeasley> hahaha future [15:41] <Evreka> LOL [15:41] <SoonerGryffindor> fawkes and I actually as a joke said that would be the worst possible ending.... not finding out [15:41] <mollywobbles23> Snape and his silly smile [15:42] <Joyhawk2121> it would be [15:42] <SoonerGryffindor> dont worry future... that dance aint gonna happpen anyway [15:42] <SoonerGryffindor> laugh [15:42] <leakylurker> Jo sais some things would still be debateble? What else could it be? [15:42] <Aislinn> If Snape is good, how do you foresee him helping Harry in Deathly Hallows? [15:42] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha lurker, i really hope you're not jo [15:42] <Joyhawk2121> I want closure [15:42] <Evreka> I can't believe she'd do that to us - can you? [15:42] <MafaldaWeasley> No, I think it's too important to be left unsaid,guys, really. [15:42] <futureweasley> Harry won't allow it [15:42] <MafaldaWeasley> ahhhh, not good [15:42] <Evreka> Well he isn't.... tongue [15:42] <dumbleydore18> helping him with spells [15:42] * SillyPutty has joined #lounge [15:42] <mollywobbles23> secretly [15:42] <futureweasley> I don't think Harry will be able to accept help from Snape, no matter how desperate he become [15:42] <SoonerGryffindor> secretly [15:42] <SillyPutty> woot! I made it [15:42] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hehehe [15:42] <futureweasley> hi SillyPutty [15:42] <SoonerGryffindor> hey SillyPutty! [15:42] <SillyPutty> I agree with Sooner! [15:42] <SoonerGryffindor> LOL [15:43] <CarpeDiem> Snape may know more about the truth of what happend the night his parents died. That information would be valuable. [15:43] <futureweasley> you would [15:43] <MrMcGonagall> there's so much that needs to happen in that relationship [15:43] * SoonerGryffindor loves SillyPutty [15:43] <Aislinn> I agree future, but some people think that he would be able to help from the background somehow [15:43] <SillyPutty> lol [15:43] <MafaldaWeasley> yeah MrM. it needs an enclosure [15:43] <Expelliarmas> Snape will only help Harry if he sees there is something in it for him [15:43] <leakylurker> maybe clearing the way for harry on the horcrux hunt, like moody in the maze? but I would hate that [15:43] <Evreka> I can't see that NOONE on the Good side would listen to him! [15:43] <dumbleydore18> it goes back to what i said earlier, snape made harry fail multipe times in his potions class to become a better wizard as the real world doesn't allow wizards to do things over, snape was helping harry perfect his potions, but was brutal about it. [15:43] <Aislinn> agreed, expie [15:43] <MafaldaWeasley> there are many loose things that need to be clarified [15:43] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, Aislinn, I think it may be a lot of indirect assistance. [15:43] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i have to go early folks - great chat!!! [15:43] <SoonerGryffindor> I like Theo's idea about his patronus helping [15:44] <SillyPutty> I think Hermione might [15:44] <Expelliarmas> bye choco [15:44] <SoonerGryffindor> bye chocolate [15:44] <nympheart> bye chocolate [15:44] <Aislinn> bye chocolateisnotforbreakfast [15:44] <futureweasley> bye chocolate [15:44] <Evreka> bye [15:44] <SillyPutty> bye chocolate [15:44] <Joyhawk2121> bye [15:44] <mollywobbles23> bye Hershey [15:44] <aranel_parmadil> ye choc [15:44] <nympheart> lol [15:44] <SoonerGryffindor> lol molly [15:44] <dumbleydore18> how could snapes patronus help harry? [15:44] <aranel_parmadil> bye even! [15:44] * chocolateisnotforbreakfast has quit [Bye] [15:44] <SoonerGryffindor> did you read the essay dd18? [15:44] <dumbleydore18> patronus [15:44] <SoonerGryffindor> its a good idea [15:44] <SillyPutty> he could send him messages - harry wouldn't know who they were from [15:44] <SoonerGryffindor> the patronus, that is [15:44] <SillyPutty> ?? [15:45] <dumbleydore18> no lol, i didn't know the chat was going to be about an essay.... [15:45] <Evreka> I don't think anyone in the Order would listen to an unknown Patronus [15:45] <MafaldaWeasley> me neither, dd18 [15:45] <mollywobbles23> I haven't read it either. I don't think. [15:45] <Evreka> not least as ONLY Order members know how to make them communicate [15:45] <SoonerGryffindor> oh man! Its a great essay [15:45] <SillyPutty> the order would know - but Harry isn't part of the order [15:45] <snitchsnatcher> Don't trust anything if you can't tell where its brain is. LOL [15:45] <Evreka> but Snape might have taught DEs [15:45] <SoonerGryffindor> right [15:45] <futureweasley> it's at www.harrypotterseven.com, which is an amazing project through Leaky. Read everything you can...you will glean so much! [15:46] <Evreka> so they would never trust an unknown one [15:46] * Danidunes has joined #lounge [15:46] <NYBookworm> I like the idea he said about the mirror [15:46] <dumbleydore18> I am looking at it in a way that a patronus cannot speak or give lessons as a person would be able to [15:46] <SillyPutty> I know I was asking a question [15:46] <dumbleydore18> I will read it after the chat [15:46] <mollywobbles23> I'm saving reading that until next week on my spring "break" [15:46] <Evreka> And HOW would Snape have got hold of that Mirror? [15:46] <SoonerGryffindor> As an FYI, all of our future P3 chats are going to be about different hp7 essays [15:46] <SillyPutty> But I do think that Hermione would listen to Snape... [15:47] <SoonerGryffindor> I agree. Hermione would [15:47] <Expelliarmas> Maybe not by now [15:47] * mollywobbles23 is multitasking: chatting about Snape and brainstorming for a lesson on a part of Romeo and Juliet. [15:47] <Expelliarmas> Hermione now knows he killed DD [15:47] <dumbleydore18> thanks for the heads up sooner! [15:47] <MafaldaWeasley> i don't think so. I think the more likely to loisten is Luna, even if she disagrees she would listen [15:47] <mollywobbles23> yes, sooner, thanks. [15:47] <SoonerGryffindor> I think she will. Hermione is very logical and not ruled by her emotions [15:47] <SillyPutty> exactly... [15:48] <aranel_parmadil> lol mollywobbles. I'm chatting here, chatting with expel on google and marking coursework at the same time! [15:48] <MrMcGonagall> I agree, sooner [15:48] <futureweasley> sometimes she is, though [15:48] <Expelliarmas> Hermione has seen too much of Snape [15:48] <futureweasley> Oppugno, anyone? [15:48] <SoonerGryffindor> well [15:48] <Evreka> I agree Expie [15:48] <SoonerGryffindor> that's different [15:48] <mollywobbles23> exactly future! [15:48] <mollywobbles23> lol [15:48] <SoonerGryffindor> that concerned Ron [15:48] <futureweasley> so, it's emotions nonetheless [15:48] <SoonerGryffindor> Since Hermione is not in love with Snape, we dont have to worry about that [15:48] <mollywobbles23> lol [15:48] <dumbleydore18> lol [15:48] <SillyPutty> but if Snape went to her, and he is on DD's side and did as ordered, she would listen to him [15:48] <leakylurker> uk [15:48] <dumbleydore18> eeek I hope not! [15:48] <mollywobbles23> well, according to some fanfiction.....shudders [15:48] * Kneazly has joined #lounge [15:49] <SoonerGryffindor> ewwww This post has been edited by SoonerGryffindor**: Mar 11 2007, 06:07 PM -------------------- This Episode is so big, we needed Hermione's beaded bag WeasleyCast.Com

SoonerGryffindor View Member Profile	Mar 11 2007, 06:08 PM Post #3
WeasleyCast's Hostess With The Mostest Posts: 6,606 Joined: 2:44am February 20, 2006 Location: At The Burrow taking cooking lessons from Molly	[15:49] <aranel_parmadil> hermione always tried to see the bet in snape. When people get let down after that they tend to be more anti than others who always believed the worst [15:49] <Expelliarmas> alright, that's a disgustig thought [15:49] <SoonerGryffindor> hello Kneazly [15:49] * Aislinn has quit [Bye] [15:49] <futureweasley> and then there's the leading them into the Forbidden forest and into complete danger...that was fueled by her hatred for Umbridge. Snape acts on emotions at times, too. They are very similar [15:49] <Evreka> no Hermione would not listen to Snape anymore [15:49] <Kneazly> Hi everybody [15:49] <Evreka> he fooled her one time too many [15:49] <SillyPutty> I don't think he ever fooled her [15:49] <Evreka> unlike LV she can learn [15:49] <SoonerGryffindor> Urm, evidentally the CB is not liking Aislinn today [15:49] <MafaldaWeasley> hermione has always tried to respect people who have knowledge. She respects knowledge, not Snape [15:49] * Aislinn has joined #lounge [15:49] <Expelliarmas> Aislinn is back! [15:50] <MafaldaWeasley> she think that if Snape is there it's because he has something to give that can be useful [15:50] <NYBookworm> I think Hermione would listen to him only after having good reason that she discovers in DD, right now it seems that he is a DE who killed DD so she will not believe him until she has a reason to change her mind [15:50] <CarpeDiem> I think Snuffles needs more chocolate, Sooner smile [15:50] <SillyPutty> Hermione usually gives people the benefit of doubt... [15:50] <SoonerGryffindor> !botsnack [15:50] * Snuffles munches on a yummy treat [15:50] <SillyPutty> and everything she distrusts is usually for a reason [15:50] * dumbleydore18 holds onto aislinn so she wont get swept away by snuffles the dog [15:50] * Expelliarmas thinks Snuffles needs to go back to obedience school [15:50] * mollywobbles23 wonders if she's the only one who hopes that one day in the CB we will uncover the truth about Snape with no doubts before DH comes out. [15:50] <SoonerGryffindor> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html [15:50] <SillyPutty> true NYB - but if there is anyone who would listen to him it would be her [15:50] * Aislinn has quit [Bye] [15:51] * Aislinn has joined #lounge [15:51] * Danidunes has quit [Bye] [15:51] <MafaldaWeasley> I have one word for Snuffles: flip-flops! [15:51] <leakylurker> Yes I think hermione would be the one who would think rationally a bout this [15:51] <nympheart> well, I hope not, molly, it's more fun this way [15:51] <NYBookworm> I agree but she will need some evidence first (and probably be something she keeps to herself at first) [15:51] <SillyPutty> probably [15:51] <dumbleydore18> even after what snape did I think Hermione still trusts him because she knew that DD trusted him, and so there fore listens to him [15:51] <SillyPutty> she would investigate and get it confirmed [15:51] <Evreka> snape being good isnot rational, it's a construction to comfort his fans.... tongue (J/K) [15:52] <CarpeDiem> I don't think Snape's motives are rational though leaky. I think there's something that no one but pehaps DD knows about that is infuencing him. [15:52] <nympheart> lol evreka [15:52] <MafaldaWeasley> hahaa evreka [15:52] <MrMcGonagall> I think Petunia knows as well, Carpe. [15:52] <leakylurker> but if he explained to Hermione somehoe, I think she could be open [15:52] <MafaldaWeasley> nobody asked if we think snape is bad [15:52] <CarpeDiem> really, MrM? Ooh! I'd like to hear about that sometime! [15:52] <SillyPutty> Agree with MrMcG [15:53] <futureweasley> Petunia knows what?! I'm confused [15:53] <SoonerGryffindor> Don't forget to read the essays we will be discussing from now on during the P3 chats! They can be found at www.harrypotterseven.com! Enjoy! [15:53] <MafaldaWeasley> me too [15:53] <SillyPutty> why snape does what he does [15:53] <SillyPutty> and DD trusts him? [15:53] <NYBookworm> I think it's possible that Hermione may think something about the tower wasn't quite right, do abit of research and find out something which leads her to realize snap'e true loyalies but noone else will be ready to believe her [15:53] <SoonerGryffindor> Jo says that Snape has been loved before. It has been suggested that perhaps this was with Lily, which was who Petunia was referring to when she said “that awful boy”. Will Petunia reveal anything about Snape to Harry? [15:53] * Aislinn has quit [Bye] [15:53] * Aislinn has joined #lounge [15:53] * BellatrixPotter has joined #lounge [15:53] * JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge [15:53] <MrMcGonagall> Bingo! [15:53] <leakylurker> oh yes NYBookworm, once she thinks about it, somehting may spark [15:53] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Snape was that awful boy [15:53] <nympheart> maybe [15:53] <SillyPutty> I hope so Sooner, I hope [15:53] <mollywobbles23> too far-fetched for my liking [15:54] <futureweasley> Snape was SO that awful boy [15:54] <MafaldaWeasley> No. I don't think the loved before has anything to do with Lily [15:54] <JaneMarple9> back again in time for the hugs! smile [15:54] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [15:54] <MafaldaWeasley> it can be his mother [15:54] <Evreka> CoC will have a follow up on this P3 Chat iin Student Hall in approx 10 minutes - welcome over! [15:54] <Aislinn> test [15:54] <Expelliarmas> Snape was not that "awful" boy [15:54] <SoonerGryffindor> you are here Aislinn [15:54] <Kneazly> I agree Mafalda--too much of a stretch for me [15:54] <mollywobbles23> see you aislinn [15:54] <SoonerGryffindor> I se you [15:54] <nympheart> hi aislinn, i see you [15:54] <JaneMarple9> Oh Snape has to be that awful boy [15:54] <SillyPutty> I think it is... [15:54] <Aislinn> hi smile [15:54] <SillyPutty> I mean he is [15:54] <Evreka> Any marauder - not Snape [15:54] <JaneMarple9> either him or sirius [15:54] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, surprising actually how many people do not think it was Snape [15:54] <Aislinn> I think it definitely isn't James, and it could well be Snape [15:54] <Joyhawk2121> I think Sirus [15:54] <SillyPutty> but we better friging find out [15:54] <leakylurker> well, he is awful, but is he "awful"- i think snape or sirius [15:54] <MrMcGonagall> It had to have been Snaape. Only one who really moves the story forward in Book 7 [15:54] <Expelliarmas> Nope, i think its Sirius [15:54] <MafaldaWeasley> Expie and I are on the same side heheh [15:55] <mollywobbles23> yeah, we better find out. [15:55] <nympheart> I'm not sure if I think it was Snape or not [15:55] <Evreka> thanks for this chat I have to leave [15:55] <Expelliarmas> it can happen, Mafalda [15:55] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, Snape and Siirus are my 2 candidates, with Snape heavily in the lead [15:55] <JaneMarple9> oh he is easily awful enough - Snape! [15:55] <Aislinn> bye evreka [15:55] <SoonerGryffindor> see ya Evreka [15:55] <leakylurker> there seems to be a greater chance that petunia would meet sirius over snape [15:55] * Evreka left #lounge [] [15:55] <futureweasley> I'm not going to wax lyrical about it, but I think Petunia had reason to think that Snape was "awful" [15:55] <Kneazly> bye evreka [15:55] <MafaldaWeasley> Not really, MrM. It doesn't fits Snape character [15:55] <JaneMarple9> she has to future [15:55] <MafaldaWeasley> I think he would have totally ignored Petunia [15:55] <SoonerGryffindor> well, I personally would rather meet Sirius than Snape as well [15:55] <Kneazly> Petunia would think anyone magical was awful [15:55] <SillyPutty> I can't see Sirius talking about the dementors anytime [15:55] <nympheart> of course she would future, just look at him [15:55] <JaneMarple9> petunia knows something about snape [15:55] <leakylurker> me too SOoner! swoon [15:55] <SoonerGryffindor> however if you liked future's essay..... [15:56] <mollywobbles23> my thing is: how in the world did Petunia and Snape meet?! [15:56] <SillyPutty> we don't know the true Snape yet... [15:56] <futureweasley> lol [15:56] <Aislinn> Theowyn suggests that Snape really hated James because he was arrogant to have made Sirius his secret keeper rather than Dumbledore. Do you think this factored into why Snape hated James so much? [15:56] <MafaldaWeasley> I think Sirius could be quite annoying if he wanted to. [15:56] <dumbleydore18> I would have to agree that Snape was the aweful boy. Or else it was Peter. Or it could have been James, but James and lillly didn't start dating until after they graduated Hogwarts, and I'm thinkg that the memory of "that awful boy" was from a child hood things [15:56] <nympheart> no [15:56] <SoonerGryffindor> I think its real good point [15:56] <JaneMarple9> for mw, I'd rather meet neville! [15:56] <MrMcGonagall> That's not the reason. [15:56] <Aislinn> I don't think so [15:56] <SoonerGryffindor> that really struck me as I was readingt the essay [15:56] <MrMcGonagall> That's small potatoes. [15:56] <mollywobbles23> no. he already hated James. [15:56] <SoonerGryffindor> pffft [15:56] <SillyPutty> he can be annoying but was he the type to talk to a girl about anything dark? [15:56] <Expelliarmas> I really don't know why people assume that the memory is a childhood thing [15:56] <MafaldaWeasley> No. I think he hated James because it happened like that, without an explanation [15:56] <nympheart> I think his hatred goes much further back than that and I don't think DD would have talked about who was who's secret keeper [15:56] <Aislinn> theo is a very convincing writer, but I don't agree with this conclusion [15:56] <leakylurker> he had enough reason to hate james it hink [15:56] <JaneMarple9> no i think snape hated james because of the whomping willow [15:57] <Expelliarmas> I think Sirius was the kind of guy who would tease anyone about anything; and good looking enough to get away with it [15:57] <SoonerGryffindor> there are so many reasons for Snape to hate James. Really take your pick [15:57] <Joyhawk2121> and the teasing [15:57] <Aislinn> and their animosity throughout their entire 7 years of school, jane [15:57] * SoonerGryffindor takes a moment to fangirl Sirius [15:57] <SillyPutty> so Sirius dated lily? [15:57] <JaneMarple9> the way he nearly was killed - and james was cleverer at quidditch, all the girls loved james etc [15:57] <SoonerGryffindor> nah [15:57] <mollywobbles23> I'll take Whomping Willow for 200, Alex. [15:57] <futureweasley> pffft, no [15:57] <Expelliarmas> No, sirius went wherever james went [15:57] <Aislinn> just like Draco and Harry - have hated each other for the entire time [15:57] <NYBookworm> I think Snape hates James still so much because of what it has meant for his life- the double life he's had to lead since then [15:57] <SoonerGryffindor> Sirius would have never went for the girl that James liked [15:57] <CarpeDiem> I don't think Snape cared much at all about who James made as his secret keeper. [15:58] <MafaldaWeasley> why this person had necessarily to date Lily, this is what I don't get it... we can bring friends home, people we work with...not only dates [15:58] <SoonerGryffindor> that is a good thought NYB [15:58] <BellatrixPotter> there was also the fact that snape was in slytherin, james gryffindor [15:58] <SillyPutty> then wouldn't petunia say they instead of the awful boy? [15:58] <futureweasley> thank you CD...I don't think he gave a crap about any of that [15:58] <SoonerGryffindor> you would think SillyPutty [15:58] <SillyPutty> she specifically mentioned lily and the awful boy... not boys [15:58] <MafaldaWeasley> maybe just one was hideous [15:59] <MafaldaWeasley> just one was the prankster [15:59] <SillyPutty> sirius was the good looking guy... [15:59] <CarpeDiem> James was pretty awful to Snape...why not Petunia? [15:59] <nympheart> well, she was talking about one particular person she heard of dementors from [15:59] <futureweasley> boy, the greasy one...Sirius was evidently "hot"...so there is nothing "awful" about that [15:59] <CarpeDiem> lol future. [15:59] <SillyPutty> exactly [15:59] <mollywobbles23> maybe the "awful boy" is Peter [15:59] <nympheart> she could have meant "awful" about behavoir [15:59] <SoonerGryffindor> lol future [15:59] <mollywobbles23> who knows? [15:59] <MafaldaWeasley> awful could be mean as well [15:59] <Expelliarmas> It is from Petunia's point of view; if sirius teased her he'd be an "awful" boy [15:59] <SillyPutty> she never called James awful in SS [15:59] <futureweasley> Jo knows [15:59] <leakylurker> but sirius was a rebel and Petunia seems so conservative, she might have considered that (and his motorbike) as awful [15:59] <SoonerGryffindor> I think anyone magical would hve been awful in Petunia's eyes [15:59] <nympheart> Sirius definately falls into that category [15:59] <futureweasley> we will too...in 131 days [15:59] <SoonerGryffindor> What similarities do you see between Tom, Harry, and Severus? [16:00] <snitchsnatcher> yes. sooner [16:00] * Aislinn has quit [Bye] [16:00] * Aislinn has joined #lounge [16:00] <SillyPutty> l'sigh [16:00] <mollywobbles23> half-blood [16:00] <SoonerGryffindor> lots [16:00] <nympheart> some similar appearance [16:00] <Kneazly> Bad childhoods [16:00] <leakylurker> half bloods [16:00] <mollywobbles23> bad childhoods [16:00] <SillyPutty> bad childhoods [16:00] <SoonerGryffindor> mother issues [16:00] <MafaldaWeasley> Very proud people, [16:00] <nympheart> connections to Slytherin [16:00] <SoonerGryffindor> single children [16:00] <dumbleydore18> can I sa say something about the pensieve scene for OOTP picture with the teen snape? [16:00] <futureweasley> social outcasts [16:00] <futureweasley> mommy issues [16:00] <futureweasley> lol [16:00] <leakylurker> talented [16:00] <Expelliarmas> What similarities do you see between Tom, Harry, and Severus? [16:00] <nympheart> strong emotions [16:01] <Kneazly> desire to prove themselves [16:01] <JaneMarple9> both lacked father figures - decent ones [16:01] <futureweasley> good one Kneazly [16:01] <SillyPutty> powerful [16:01] <futureweasley> Harry has had some outstanding father figures! [16:01] <futureweasley> I disagree Jane [16:01] <dumbleydore18> I agree with everyone so there's no point in repeating things [16:01] <JaneMarple9> they were more or less orphans - tom and harry were and snape as good as [16:01] <SoonerGryffindor> sorry guys, the Corner Booth has been misbehaving a lot today. We are going to have to be extra nice to Snuffles. He must not have liked the time change [16:01] <JaneMarple9> I mean BEFORE harry started hogwarts sorry smile [16:02] <CarpeDiem> Okay guys and gals. I'm off. Thanks for the wonderful chat! smile [16:02] <snitchsnatcher> lonely [16:02] <Kneazly> We don't know Snape's father wasn't around [16:02] <nympheart> all of them have a strong attachment to DADA [16:02] <Aislinn> bye carpe! [16:02] <futureweasley> bye CD! (hugs) [16:02] * CarpeDiem has quit [Bye] [16:02] <MafaldaWeasley> by cd [16:02] <Joyhawk2121> bye [16:02] <SillyPutty> he was abusive... [16:02] <Joyhawk2121> bye all [16:02] <leakylurker> bye everyone, sorry for the typos! [16:02] <JaneMarple9> lonley yes [16:02] <Kneazly> by Joy [16:02] <MafaldaWeasley> very interested on DADA yeah [16:02] * Joyhawk2121 left #lounge [] [16:02] <dumbleydore18> well....maybe one thing....Harry grew up without parents, Tom did as well and both of them grew up ina hard living situation, did Snape grow up without parents? or adopted? [16:02] <SoonerGryffindor> Thanks for a wonderful chat on a difficult topic everyone [16:02] * leakylurker left #lounge [] [16:02] <Aislinn> I think that all of them have lacked full parenting, and that it has left them to make choices on their own earlier than someone like a Weasley child has had to [16:03] <Kneazly> Different reasons for interest in DADA though [16:03] <MrMcGonagall> This has been fun. Bye everyone! [16:03] <SoonerGryffindor> Also, thanks for putting up with a tempermental Corner Booth [16:03] <Expelliarmas> see y'all later [16:03] <nympheart> bye! [16:03] <mollywobbles23> lol [16:03] <JaneMarple9> hug everyone hug [16:03] <futureweasley> this was a great chat...thanks for being here! [16:03] <Aislinn> bye all, and thanks for the great chat! [16:03] <dumbleydore18> i have to say one thing about the teenage snape and the actor who portrays him......he is very lets say....handsome! [16:03] <mollywobbles23> bye! hug [16:03] <Kneazly> Bye! [16:03] * nympheart left #lounge [] [16:03] * futureweasley reinstates the group hugs [16:03] <MafaldaWeasley> bye guys!!! wonderful chat [16:03] <JaneMarple9> silly cornerbooth! [16:03] * SillyPutty has quit [Bye] [16:03] * Expelliarmas has quit [Bye] [16:03] * Kneazly left #lounge [] [16:03] <aranel_parmadil> bye everyone [16:03] * mollywobbles23 has quit [Bye] [16:03] <futureweasley> all the Snape haters, special squeezes over here [16:03] *** MafaldaWeasley left #lounge [] [16:03] <snitchsnatcher> bye [16:03] <SoonerGryffindor> holy schmoly! The booth is jumping now [16:03] * JaneMarple9 runs off before the booth takes offence!! [16:03] <dumbleydore18> and yes very intense chat, i think we were going to ahve to get out some boxing gloves woith some of the discussions [16:04] * aranel_parmadil has quit [Bye] [16:04] * JaneMarple9 has quit [Bye] [16:04] * snitchsnatcher has quit [Bye] [16:04] <dumbleydore18> bye [16:04] <futureweasley> buh bye [16:04] * dumbleydore18 left #lounge [] -------------------- This Episode is so big, we needed Hermione's beaded bag WeasleyCast.Com

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