P3 Corner Booth Transcript: June 3, 2007, HP7 chpt - Old Magic, Blood, Sacrifice |
 Jun 3 2007, 06:20 PM
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Total Eclipse of the Elf  Posts: 2,102 Joined: 4:47pm July 3, 2005 Location: Kansas City  |
Moderators for this chat: Aislinn, fawkes28, futureweasley, Poet, Prongs Patronus, and SoonerGryffindor
[14:00] *** You_wont_know_who has joined #lounge [14:00] *** You_wont_know_who has quit [Bye] [14:00] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [14:01] *** penguin1124 has joined #lounge [14:01] <Poet> How's everyone doing? [14:02] <ProngsPatronus> I am psyched for this chat! [14:02] <penguin1124> pretty good thx [14:02] <penguin1124> same [14:02] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [14:02] *** bookworm1102 has joined #lounge [14:02] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [14:02] <Aislinn> hello folks [14:02] <Poet> Hi bookworm1102 and penguin1124 . Love your names. [14:02] <bookworm1102> hi [14:03] <fawkes28> hello smile [14:03] <bookworm1102> thank [14:03] <penguin1124> thx [14:03] <Poet> Feel free to chat casually for the next 12 minutes or so smile [14:04] <ProngsPatronus> lol [14:04] <Poet> I'm excited that Jo is letting a company make a Hogwarts theme park. It doesn't open until 2010, but I better start saving now. [14:04] <ProngsPatronus> you will need to! [14:04] <penguin1124> i know that will be pretty cool [14:04] *** RudiusHagrid has joined #lounge [14:04] <ProngsPatronus> the prices down there are extreme [14:05] <fawkes28> i'll be there on opening day [14:05] <penguin1124> probably [14:05] <ProngsPatronus> hey, rudius [14:05] <fawkes28> hey rudi [14:05] <RudiusHagrid> hi all [14:05] <Aislinn> once we start the questions, we'll be talking about Prongs Patronus's excellent chapter from the HarryPotterSeven.com project, which can be found here: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/#static:bookseven/blood [14:05] <bookworm1102> everyone will be there opening day [14:05] <penguin1124> hey [14:05] <Aislinn> hey Rudius [14:05] <fawkes28> !kick SoonerGryffindor [14:05] *** SoonerGryffindor was kicked from #lounge by Snuffles [Requested] [14:05] <RudiusHagrid> 8O [14:06] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [14:06] <Aislinn> how is everyone today? [14:06] <bookworm1102> good [14:06] <bookworm1102> board [14:06] <RudiusHagrid> good thanks [14:06] *** SoonerGryffindor has quit [Bye] [14:06] <penguin1124> good thx [14:06] *** mishale has joined #lounge [14:06] <fawkes28> i am excited to discuss prongs' awesome chapter [14:07] <penguin1124> same [14:07] *** JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge [14:07] <Aislinn> hi jane [14:07] <fawkes28> i'd even allow people to woot for it - but no taking advantage of my good nature [14:07] <Aislinn> hi mishale [14:07] <ProngsPatronus> hey, jane1 [14:07] * RudiusHagrid speed reads... [14:07] <JaneMarple9> w00t2 It's Sunday!! [14:07] <ProngsPatronus> *woot* [14:07] <bookworm1102> lol [14:08] <penguin1124> i don't really like sundays, espcially now [14:08] <bookworm1102> why [14:08] <Aislinn> now? [14:08] <penguin1124> i start finals tomorrow [14:08] <bookworm1102> ahh [14:08] <Aislinn> ah, the dreaded finals! [14:08] <fawkes28> oh, that is no fun [14:08] <penguin1124> well yeah i have my first spanish final tomorrow [14:08] <bookworm1102> yea im finished with those [14:08] <penguin1124> that really sux i hate my spanish teacher [14:08] <bookworm1102> 2 weeks ago actually [14:08] <penguin1124> lucky [14:08] <fawkes28> good luck smile [14:09] <penguin1124> thx [14:09] <bookworm1102> good luck [14:09] <fawkes28> i am on the other side though - i give tests and finals laugh [14:09] <Poet> boo [14:09] <bookworm1102> oh you must have fun [14:09] *** dustyfairy has joined #lounge [14:09] * ProngsPatronus keeping hooves crossed for penguin [14:09] <ProngsPatronus> hey, dusty [14:09] <dustyfairy> hey [14:10] <fawkes28> yes, they are already dreading a vocabulary final from the whole year [14:10] <bookworm1102> again you must have fun w/ that [14:10] <Aislinn> 47 days left until the book! I just can't believe it [14:10] <ProngsPatronus> I know [14:10] *** Narya has joined #lounge [14:10] <penguin1124> i know this is amazing [14:10] <ProngsPatronus> where has the time gone? [14:10] <Aislinn> hi dustyfairy [14:10] <bookworm1102> its crazy [14:10] <Aislinn> hey Narya! [14:10] <fawkes28> hey narya smile [14:10] *** mishale has quit [Bye] [14:10] <penguin1124> i am probably gonna read it like atleast 5 times before august [14:11] <ProngsPatronus> ((Narya))) [14:11] <penguin1124> maybe more [14:11] <dustyfairy> i want to reread the books bu i cant cos im suppose to be revision [14:11] <Narya> Hi all [14:11] <bookworm1102> mee too [14:11] <fawkes28> oh, no, Aislinn don't tell us that [14:11] <Aislinn> it will be such a bittersweet experience [14:11] *** mishale has joined #lounge [14:11] * fawkes28 tries to forget about how many days until the book comes out [14:11] <bookworm1102> itll be a sad sad day [14:11] <penguin1124> yeah [14:11] <ProngsPatronus> but a happy one, as well [14:11] <penguin1124> but i mean i hope she does write more books [14:11] <bookworm1102> too true prongs [14:12] <Aislinn> it will be wonderful to see Jo's vision for the tale completed prongs, yes [14:12] <fawkes28> i am going to get it 5 hours before the U.S. does - woot!! [14:12] <bookworm1102> lucky [14:12] <penguin1124> sad [14:12] <ProngsPatronus> don't go there [14:12] <bookworm1102> no spoilers! [14:12] * Poet is grumpy that she gets the book 6 hours after most of the world [14:12] <dustyfairy> so am i fawkes!!! [14:12] <penguin1124> yeah i mean we have been wating for the book for years [14:12] <fawkes28> you can come, prongs [14:12] <fawkes28> i would never give spoilers - i hate people who do that [14:13] <Poet> Maybe I can call someone long-distance and make them speed-read the book to me [14:13] <Aislinn> hahahaha [14:13] *** Kneazly has joined #lounge [14:13] <Aislinn> hi Kneazly ;) [14:13] <bookworm1102> if you think that would work [14:13] <fawkes28> nope, poet [14:13] <Kneazly> Hi all! [14:13] <fawkes28> you will just have to wait [14:13] <bookworm1102> hi [14:13] <fawkes28> hi Kneazly [14:13] <Poet> Unfortunately stags don't fit in the suitcases of birds [14:14] *** You_wont_know_who has joined #lounge [14:14] <JaneMarple9> hi ywkw smile [14:14] <Aislinn> hi (((YWKW))) [14:14] <penguin1124> do u guys think that there will be any unended story lines? [14:14] <fawkes28> hey ywkw [14:14] <Kneazly> Hi ywkw [14:14] <bookworm1102> no idont [14:14] <bookworm1102> at least i hope not [14:14] <penguin1124> yeah same [14:14] <Aislinn> I don't think that Jo will be able to answer every question that we have, in the size book she has written [14:14] <dustyfairy> i doubt it knowing JKR [14:15] <ProngsPatronus> YWKW--hey! [14:15] <ProngsPatronus> 1000 pages wouldn't be enough for all our questions! [14:15] *** You_wont_know_who left #lounge [] [14:15] <fawkes28> she said there will still be things for us to debate over [14:15] <fawkes28> which i love [14:15] <bookworm1102> no kidding [14:15] <Aislinn> right, prongs [14:15] <penguin1124> well i mean i mean i hope most of the important story lines are finished and that some of the not as important one won't be [14:15] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [14:15] <Poet> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You're not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you'll be able to type again soon. [14:15] <Poet> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to send you a private chat message. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the message that has been sent to you by that mod. [14:15] <Poet> You won't be able to reply to that message, but if you could just say something like "Poet, got it" in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [14:16] <Poet> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [14:16] <Poet> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [14:16] <Aislinn> Prongs Patronus’ Chapter for Harry Potter Seven, The Tie That Binds, makes the connection between how powerful old magic is when enhanced by blood and sacrifice. [14:16] <Aislinn> The chapter discusses Lily’s sacrifice as well as Dumbledore and how these events, along with others, will help Harry vanquish the Dark Lord. [14:16] <Aislinn> Prongs Patronus’ chapter can be found here: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/#static:bookseven/blood [14:16] <Aislinn> Prongs Patronus said in her chapter, “…modern medicine has proved that the traces of blood remain, though it be invisible to the eye.” How do you see this statement panning out in Deathly Hallows? [14:16] *** You_wont_know_who has joined #lounge [14:16] *** janieb has joined #lounge [14:16] <ProngsPatronus> hey, janie [14:17] <RudiusHagrid> Hi YWKW [14:17] <You_wont_know_who> hi everyone [14:17] <You_wont_know_who> hi Rudius [14:17] <Aislinn> so, are you saying by this statement, prongs, that blood such as what was passed to Harry from his mom, and what LV took from him, will have a powerful effect? [14:17] <fawkes28> i think that even though the magic has worn off from his mother's sacrifice - it is sitll there and will still protect him as he faces the final battle [14:17] <janieb> Hello Prongs and everyone! [14:17] <Aislinn> hi YWKW! [14:17] <Poet> Well, we saw how blood has been important in finding one of the horcruxes. It's Voldemort's style. [14:18] *** SoonerGryffindor has quit [Bye] [14:18] <penguin1124> do u think there will be less protection now that he has come of age? [14:18] <bookworm1102> i think that the power might still be with him no matter what [14:18] <penguin1124> ok [14:18] <ProngsPatronus> yes--blood remains, and remains magically powerful [14:18] <dustyfairy> but the protection from his mothers blood runs out at 17 [14:18] <Narya> I think that blood will be important in two ways - protection, and sacrifice [14:18] <You_wont_know_who> I agree that Voldemort took a dangerous substance, far more dangerous than he thought, using Harry's blood [14:18] <You_wont_know_who> hi Ann [14:18] <ProngsPatronus> long after it disappears to the naked eye [14:18] <Kneazly> The traces are in both Harry and LV now, I think something slightly different than mother's protection will be going on [14:18] <fawkes28> i also think that those who have killed and spilt blood - it still remains on their hands and cannot be forgotten [14:18] <Poet> I loved all the references Prongs made to different times Harry or Voldemort has been touched by blood. I agree that one or more of these will be important in Book 7 [14:19] <bookworm1102> i think he would still be protected one way or the other [14:19] <ProngsPatronus> yes, fawkes [14:19] <Aislinn> He has a part of his mother running through his veins, even after the protection that Dumbledore placed at Privet Dr. runs out [14:19] <RudiusHagrid> i think the blood's prtection may run out but the incentive his mother's blood gives Harry would remain [14:19] <ProngsPatronus> the protection will wear out--but the Love, never [14:19] <You_wont_know_who> and now he will have to bear the consequences - there are two powerful forces fighting within his body [14:19] <bookworm1102> agreed prongs [14:19] <dustyfairy> so will LV have trouble killing harry cos love is now in his (lv) veins [14:19] <Aislinn> in LV's body, you mean YWKW? [14:20] <You_wont_know_who> it's like taking the wrong blood group during a transfusion [14:20] <penguin1124> well dumbledore says that harry needs to visit privet drive once more to ake it so that his mothers protection stays with him so yeha [14:20] <Aislinn> yes [14:20] <You_wont_know_who> LV's body, yes [14:20] <Aislinn> Blood status is highly important in the wizarding world. Most Slytherins are still comprised of pure-bloods. How will the status of blood change in the 7th book, if at all? [14:20] <You_wont_know_who> Love never wears out, true Prongs [14:21] <bookworm1102> i think it might go to the muggle borns [14:21] <RudiusHagrid> no a predjudice like that wont go away because we wish it to [14:21] <bookworm1102> they would be more respected [14:21] <ProngsPatronus> I think the definition of being a "pureblood" will change [14:21] <Aislinn> I agree, Rudius [14:21] <fawkes28> i still think that some people will have their prejudices - it is not going to be a completely happy ending where all of wizarding kind lives in peace [14:21] <penguin1124> i don't think there will be any change [14:21] <Kneazly> Things will have to change--hopefully the whole society will become more equitable, not just for muggleborns but for house elves etc. [14:21] <Aislinn> that kind of change takes a long time, and a gradual shift [14:21] <penguin1124> excatly [14:21] <Narya> I don't think blood status will change in terms of any of those who hold real prejudices - they're too far gone to be swayed [14:21] <Poet> We know that the pure-bloods have been dying out. In Voldemort war #1, people that previously were willing to do things in the name of pure-blood saw what Voldemort really stood for, and they were put off by it. Hopefully this new war does the same. [14:21] <RudiusHagrid> not only that but you have people that wont let go [14:21] <You_wont_know_who> if they find out who LV really is they might change a bit their purebloodness perception, but not much [14:22] <bookworm1102> it still might change some peoples thoughts though [14:22] <ProngsPatronus> but they will be such a minority after book seven, I think, that they will be the outcasts [14:22] <Aislinn> I think the most we will see is that a few people's eyes are opened to the false logic of blood purity [14:22] <Narya> I think the most interesting scenario is that Bellatrix is now aware that LV is a halfblood [14:22] <penguin1124> well i don't think there wil be outcats [14:22] <Poet> I agree Aislinn [14:22] <You_wont_know_who> some will be bitterly disappointed, some won't notice, as ususal [14:22] <penguin1124> but eventually there will be no more purebloods left [14:22] <RudiusHagrid> just today in the news paper there was a article of someone spraypainting racist comments on a black man's house in a white neigborhood here in South Africa [14:22] <ProngsPatronus> I think that being magical will eventually mean "pureblood" [14:22] <Aislinn> that is interesting, Narya [14:22] <Kneazly> I think maybe it will be like the Civil Rights movement--take time, prejudice doesn't go away, but things do get better [14:22] <RudiusHagrid> this is not something that goes away [14:22] <Aislinn> since the purity was such an issue for her, it makes one wonder if her loyalties have been shaken at all [14:23] <fawkes28> i think one way for it to change is for the pureblood race to die out [14:23] <mishale> maybe it will change partly because the malfoys and other advocators of pure-blood will be looked upon negativeley [14:23] <janieb> If some Slytherins unite with others in the fight against LV--they might leave their prejudices behind [14:23] <penguin1124> but the minority is gonna be the purebloods so i think that there will no more hatred eventually [14:23] <You_wont_know_who> right Narya, only Bella is deaf and blind when it comes to LV [14:23] <Poet> Some people's eyes will be opened I hope. Even people like Blaise Zabini were willing to recognize that "blood-traitors" like Ginny Weasley have some admirable qualities. [14:23] <Narya> Eradicating racism takes education - I wonder if the prejudiced ones have the guts to open their eyes, but I doubt it [14:23] <fawkes28> change takes time - nothing that big happens over night - it would be unrealisitic of Jo to create that kind of ending where everyone gets along [14:23] <ProngsPatronus> they might not, but their children? [14:23] <ProngsPatronus> there is hope for the future [14:24] <bookworm1102> thats true fawkes [14:24] <Aislinn> I think a few may open their eyes, but I think it would be unrealistic for Jo to write a story in which the broad group all "sees the light" [14:24] <fawkes28> yes, parents have a strong influence on their children and lead by example [14:24] <Poet> I hope what Dumbledore was willing to do for Draco might help the Malfoy family, for one, to have their eyes opened a little [14:24] <penguin1124> mayby with dumbledore getting killed, the purebloods in the school will realise what horrible things are happening and join up with every1 else [14:24] <fawkes28> if they are taught hatred, they will teach hatred [14:24] <penguin1124> along with there family [14:24] <Aislinn> right fawkes [14:24] <penguin1124> but idk [14:24] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [14:24] <You_wont_know_who> OH the Malfoys will rather die than change [14:25] <ProngsPatronus> exactly [14:25] <penguin1124> yeah [14:25] <bookworm1102> i agree [14:25] <ProngsPatronus> and I think they will die [14:25] <Aislinn> One way Harry and Voldemort are alike are that they are both half-bloods. This is most likely the reason that Voldemort marked Harry as his equal. How will their similar half-blood status continue to play a role? [14:25] <bookworm1102> that maybe alot of the death eater were lying like LV and snape [14:26] <Narya> Harry has no problem with his status; I think the one with the issue is LV, since his "most loyal servant" can't forget what she heard [14:26] <dustyfairy> i dont think it is that important [14:26] <You_wont_know_who> I agree with fawkes28 , hatred is hard to be eliminated [14:26] <bookworm1102> that not evryone is purblood [14:26] <penguin1124> yeah maybe people aren't as pure as they think [14:26] <fawkes28> i think it will be a constant reminder to voldemort that he is not what he wants to be - pureblood [14:26] <dustyfairy> i dont think anyone can be completely pure blood any more [14:26] <RudiusHagrid> i think the number of PURE purebloods is alot less than they think [14:26] <penguin1124> yes [14:26] <Aislinn> I agree narya [14:26] <penguin1124> i mean look at the family tree in the black house [14:26] <ProngsPatronus> even in the rebirthing potion, he could not forego a bit of his father's substance [14:26] <You_wont_know_who> Harry will become as powerful as LV, only in a different field [14:26] <ProngsPatronus> he is stuck with half-blood [14:27] <Aislinn> it is LV's self hatred that is at play here, not Harry's view - Harry has no concern about blood [14:27] <Narya> That rebirthing potion is also interesting [14:27] <janieb> I think it will help Harry to empathize with LV in key moments [14:27] <bookworm1102> could LV do that [14:27] <You_wont_know_who> LV has admitted, choosing Harry, that the pure-bloodness mania is just a big hill of rubbish [14:27] <penguin1124> thats true [14:27] <ProngsPatronus> I agree, YWKW [14:27] <Aislinn> right penguin, there are probably very few that are actually pure at this point, just a lot of pretenders, like snape [14:27] <penguin1124> or it is just that being a half blood makes him more like lv [14:28] <Poet> It was the first way that they were similar but opposite. Those similar but opposite characteristics have continued to grow. I see it representative of their ying-yang relationship [14:28] <fawkes28> it also forges a connection between the two whether or not voldemort will admit it - i think this is a similaritiy that is a reminder to harry and may cause harry to forgive him for all the wrong he has done or at least pity him [14:28] <penguin1124> well ahs snape ever said he was pureblood? [14:28] *** SoonerGryffindor has quit [Bye] [14:28] <RudiusHagrid> well at heart Voldy would believe that otherwise hed have to give up and go home [14:28] <Aislinn> yes, poet, I like the way you put that [14:28] <RudiusHagrid> he will however play to the fears and beliefs of his audience [14:28] <penguin1124> jk rowling told people to stop calling voldemort voldy [14:28] <ProngsPatronus> fawkes, I think compassion from harry is key [14:28] <RudiusHagrid> if they want to believe pureblood is best hell tout it - hes after power not ideals [14:28] <penguin1124> yes [14:29] <Poet> We tend to shorten names in the chat because we have limited space to type smile [14:29] <You_wont_know_who> the rebirth potion is interesting indeed and it might play a role [14:29] <Aislinn> I think that he believes that pureblood is best, Rudius [14:29] <Aislinn> he has nothing but contempt for Muggles, and for that side of his own nature [14:29] <You_wont_know_who> maybe Harry will have to brew some more of it in order to make LV mortal again? [14:29] <Narya> It doesn't matter - to me - what LV does. He's a dead man walking, because he has foregone his humanity. The blood running in his veins will be part of his undoing, I think [14:29] <bookworm1102> agreed [14:29] <RudiusHagrid> I could always pull a lvender and call him Vol-Vol [14:29] <penguin1124> yeah [14:30] <fawkes28> yes, aislinn and in that way voldemort is similar to hitler [14:30] <bookworm1102> lol [14:30] <dustyfairy> i think the fact that LV has some of harry's blood (therefore his love) will play a big part [14:30] <penguin1124> ha ha [14:30] <Aislinn> what is it about the rebirthing potion that you guys find interesting? [14:30] <Aislinn> yes, fawkes, very similar [14:30] <dustyfairy> maybe that will be how he is destroyed [14:30] <penguin1124> well i mean in the first book, lv drank the unicorn blood [14:30] <bookworm1102> could he acually do the whole rebirthing potion thing? [14:31] <Kneazly> I don't think another rebirthing potion would make LV mortal/human again [14:31] <RudiusHagrid> it seems strangely poetic to me [14:31] <Poet> One part renewed Voldemort, one part revived Voldemort, one part resurrected him. It was his father's bone that renewed him. [14:31] <You_wont_know_who> LV hates the muggles because they are weaker, not because they are non-magic I suppose [14:31] <penguin1124> well i think it is because there blood is weaker [14:31] <janieb> DD's glint upon hearing the rebirthing story is still what I find interesting (and mysterious) [14:32] <You_wont_know_who> maybe the part of Harry in LV will make him emphatize with other people for the first time of his life? [14:32] <bookworm1102> that makes sense ywkw [14:32] <Aislinn> How will Peter Pettigrew’s sacrifice of his arm, play a role in Deathly Hallows? [14:32] <JaneMarple9> a big part [14:32] <Narya> I had the weird theory of the "emotion in the potion"; to me, LV fatally compromised himself by forcibly taking Harry's blood, not to mention that Harry's blood has the blood protection through Lily's sacrifice and the hunch I have that Peter also has a role in there somewhere. DD's gleam of triumph also suggests that he knew LV's mistake [14:32] <bookworm1102> his real arm or silver arm? [14:32] <RudiusHagrid> it ends up being a argument of eugenics in the end - saying one set of gentics is uperior to the next [14:32] <penguin1124> i think that it will make lv more human [14:32] <JaneMarple9> it's another connection with voldie - peter has to pay the debt [14:33] <Aislinn> the real arm that went into the potion, bookworm [14:33] <You_wont_know_who> rebirthing potion is interesting as it contained Harry's blood and something went wrong because of it in my opinion. [14:33] <bookworm1102> ah [14:33] <bookworm1102> thanks [14:33] <You_wont_know_who> thanks bookworm smile [14:33] <ProngsPatronus> silver is an interesting substance [14:33] <fawkes28> it is interesting that it is willingly given - but why peter - i would have chosen a better DE [14:33] <Narya> I feel strongly that Peter will willingly repay his debt; there is something in that "sacrifice" of his because he certainly didn't give his flesh willing [14:33] <ProngsPatronus> it is one of the sovereign remedies against evil [14:33] <JaneMarple9> yep effects werewolves too PP [14:33] <RudiusHagrid> is it so willingly given? [14:33] <Aislinn> the willingness did seem to be a central part of the incantation for the spell [14:34] <dustyfairy> peter had to pay back his lost service [14:34] *** penguin1124 has quit [Bye] [14:34] <RudiusHagrid> did Wormtail have that much of a choice? [14:34] <Narya> I don't think Peter was willing - I think LV made a mistake in assuming he was [14:34] <ProngsPatronus> yes, I think he did [14:34] <fawkes28> you think he didn't give it willingly, narya? [14:34] <JaneMarple9> would you say no to voldie??? [14:34] <Narya> Correct [14:34] *** penguin1124 has joined #lounge [14:34] <Aislinn> LV was pretty powerless in the condition he was in - Wormtail could have left him in that state, [14:34] <Kneazly> I think it had to be Peter, Fawkes, because he was the only DE who knew LV was back at that point [14:34] <ProngsPatronus> peter had a choice [14:34] <fawkes28> so you think that peter will be his downfall? [14:34] <You_wont_know_who> Peter is a secret Harry's agent , you'll see. He will betray LV and his arm will cause some harm [14:34] <ProngsPatronus> and he chose to sacrifice his hand [14:34] <Aislinn> so yes, I do think he had a choice, and made it willingly, if fearfully [14:34] <You_wont_know_who> he wasn't willing at all [14:34] <JaneMarple9> don't think wormtail had much chance giving his arm for the potion [14:35] <Narya> I think Peter will play a part in LV's downfall, yes [14:35] <JaneMarple9> so do i nayra [14:35] <You_wont_know_who> I agree Narya [14:35] <Poet> Well Wormtail was doing the whole rebirthing potion, so I do see a certain amount of willingness there. Not a ton, but some. [14:35] <penguin1124> well since peter was the secret keeper, i think that peter will give harry the location of where his parents were killed, and that will lead him to lv downfall [14:35] <bookworm1102> it kinda makes you think peter will sacrife remus [14:35] <RudiusHagrid> if peter didnt give it, there was the chance Barty Jr would survive and do it [14:35] <You_wont_know_who> he would be killed if he left LV Aislinn [14:35] <Narya> The feelings Peter felt compromise that potion somehow, if my hunch is correct [14:35] <bookworm1102> cant belive i said that [14:35] <Narya> and it's only a hunch [14:35] <RudiusHagrid> and barty wpuld have slit his own throat for Voldemort [14:36] <penguin1124> yeah [14:36] <penguin1124> but really lv would do nothing for them [14:36] <Aislinn> I think he might have feared that, YWKW, but at that point, LV was pretty powerless [14:36] <mishale> lv must have been trying to persuade peter by promising him the healing of the arm [14:36] <janieb> He willingly went to LV in PoA--everything else follows from that [14:36] <Poet> Yes he did. [14:36] <bookworm1102> thats true [14:36] <Aislinn> exactly janieb [14:36] <penguin1124> yesa [14:36] <RudiusHagrid> he had no option but to seek out Voldemort [14:36] <fawkes28> i don't like peter very much - i think he will repay his debt but i still think he will take the cowardly way out whatever he does [14:36] <You_wont_know_who> Peter had nowhere to go and nobody to turn to - do you call it willingness? [14:36] <dustyfairy> peter wanted powerful friends and the only way to do that was sacrifice his arm [14:36] <Aislinn> it was the rat's choice to go to LV at the end of PoA [14:37] <RudiusHagrid> he knew sirius would hunt him down [14:37] <ProngsPatronus> the sacrifice, then, may be his willingness to leave ron, and go to LV [14:37] <Aislinn> feely chosen [14:37] <penguin1124> yes but eventually lv would track him down [14:37] <Narya> That's interesting, PP [14:37] <bookworm1102> i think he will go to what ever side that is winning [14:37] <Aislinn> he couldn't have done so, if Peter had never gone back to him in the first place, penguin [14:37] <fawkes28> peter could have chosen to die instead of serve voldemort [14:37] <penguin1124> thats true [14:37] <mishale> but if he hadn't gone to lv he would have been sent to askaban (not a great choice) [14:37] <Poet> In Book 4 Voldemort told his Death Eaters that he'd almost lost all hope at that point - that is until Wormtail showed up in Albania [14:37] <Aislinn> right, poet [14:38] <penguin1124> yeah i forgot that [14:38] <Kneazly> Peter was willing, but for selfish reasons--the healing of the arm, a hope for position, people to protect him... [14:38] <You_wont_know_who> he went only to avoid catching by the Ministry [14:38] <Narya> Peter says himself that he never had the kind of courage which Sirius and Remus had [14:38] <Aislinn> he could have just run [14:38] <Narya> Venality dictates what he does [14:38] <Aislinn> yes, narya [14:38] <dustyfairy> he couldn't have run forever [14:38] <Narya> So far, at least [14:38] <bookworm1102> i think he has some courage just not in a good way [14:38] <ProngsPatronus> but he must have some kind of courage, else he wouldn't have been a gryff [14:38] <fawkes28> but i think peter also fears dying - so he stayed - but he did have a choice [14:38] <Aislinn> he was a rat - that was an effective way to hide, and could have been again [14:38] <Narya> Yes, PP [14:38] <You_wont_know_who> right fawkes [14:38] <penguin1124> yeah [14:38] *** Dreamteam has joined #lounge [14:38] <Aislinn> hi Dreamteam [14:38] <fawkes28> hey dreamteam [14:39] <ProngsPatronus> hey, dreamteam [14:39] <Aislinn> What does it mean that Voldemort chose to be reborn using Harry's blood? [14:39] <penguin1124> hey [14:39] <mishale> but now they knew that he could change in a rat [14:39] <Kneazly> Hi dreamteam [14:39] <Dreamteam> hi everyone [14:39] <RudiusHagrid> hi dreamteam [14:39] <janieb> So far he's my choice for 2nd most unethical HP character (after Umbridge) [14:39] <Dreamteam> sorry it took a while realised I hadn;t eaten [14:39] <fawkes28> ah, this means everything, doesn't it? [14:39] <bookworm1102> because harry is probably more powerful thatn neville [14:39] <penguin1124> i think that it meant that he wanted to use his enemy to be his enemy's downfall [14:39] <Aislinn> I think it is critical, as others have mentioned today [14:39] <dustyfairy> it means that he has love in his veins [14:39] <penguin1124> but he had no idea what he was really doing at that moment [14:39] <Poet> They are even more connected. Harry got a little of Voldemort's abilities when he was 1 years old. Now its gone the other way [14:39] <Aislinn> LV now has Harry's blood and influence, running through his veins [14:39] <You_wont_know_who> he did have some courage [14:39] <You_wont_know_who> hi Dreamteam [14:39] <fawkes28> i think voldemort was just focusing on the present concern - he wanted to be able to touch harry - so he got what he wanted [14:39] <Narya> LV chose his enemy, thinking that he would be stronger from within. It's just the opposite, though, because he's now so much weaker [14:39] <Poet> So now there is a two way link between them [14:40] <Dreamteam> HiYWKW [14:40] <Aislinn> yes, I agree with both narya and poet [14:40] <penguin1124> which voldemort has cut off or tried to cut off [14:40] <You_wont_know_who> it means that he chose to be equal with Harry [14:40] <ProngsPatronus> yes fawkes--but the short-term gain will mean a long-term disability [14:40] <Aislinn> LV has weakened himself with Harry's blood, and strengthened the connection between the two of them [14:40] <fawkes28> yes, prongs - and he is too arrogant to realize that [14:40] <Narya> Back to the "dead man walking" idea - and LV doesn't see it because he's too blasé about his intelligence [14:40] <You_wont_know_who> he deemed Harry as his worst and the most dangerous enemy [14:40] <penguin1124> yeah [14:40] <mishale> but we didn't see any change in lv or harry because of the blood so far [14:41] <janieb> Twp way link--very apropros, Poet [14:41] <Kneazly> I can't think of any parallels in myth or legends but I am pretty positive that this follows some type of pattern [14:41] <ProngsPatronus> and his equal, in the same breath [14:41] <You_wont_know_who> even if Harry was only a boy, an underaged wizard [14:41] <bookworm1102> in a way LV isn't equl since harry can love and LV cant [14:41] <ProngsPatronus> it must set up a conundrum for him [14:41] <Aislinn> it is because he has no understanding of the power of love, so once again, underestimated [14:41] <Dreamteam> I think it might give LV a false sense of security, he might think he has Harry's protection doesnt realise its time limited [14:41] <penguin1124> but lv can do things that harry can't [14:41] <Poet> I also think it means that Harry will be able to more easily use the connection between them. He just needs to learn how. We saw that already a little in Book 5 when Voldemort couldn't stand to possess him. [14:41] <penguin1124> but harry can learn to do those things [14:41] <ProngsPatronus> because he admits to no equal [14:41] <penguin1124> but lv can't learn to love [14:41] <Aislinn> right, poet - I see that as key [14:41] <bookworm1102> i agree Penguin [14:42] <RudiusHagrid> it just dawned on me [14:42] <dustyfairy> i think he has love in him from harrys blood, which will be his downfall [14:42] <mishale> but if it is a two-way connection, why didn't we see any impact on lv so far? [14:42] <RudiusHagrid> the key is the link [14:42] <Narya> I don't think it's about Harry learning to capitalise on that connection so much as Harry playing to his strengths, as Moody and DD both told him in their own ways [14:42] <You_wont_know_who> I like this "dead man walking" theory and that LV is blind when it comes to his state [14:42] <janieb> Well said, Poet [14:42] <Aislinn> we did, mishale, when Harry saw the attack on arthuur, and when LV could not continue to possess harry [14:42] <bookworm1102> maybe because of the horoucuxes mishale [14:42] <penguin1124> yes [14:43] <RudiusHagrid> Snape said Harry needed to learn occlumency to prevent Voldemort seeing into his mind and predicting his moves [14:43] <You_wont_know_who> it's more about a potential than about doing things [14:43] <Narya> Harry will never learn Occlumency [14:43] <RudiusHagrid> but harry has that lin into Voldy's mind already [14:43] <Aislinn> but that is not what harry needs rudi [14:43] <penguin1124> but lv also needed to use occlumency [14:43] <Aislinn> right [14:43] <Dreamteam> maybe Harry will be able to see LVs moves instead [14:43] <Aislinn> yes [14:43] <fawkes28> i think we are going to have to wait until the final battle to see what having harry's blood really means [14:43] <You_wont_know_who> I love the connection idea, Poet [14:43] <RudiusHagrid> exacctly [14:43] <Narya> Harry is not the type of creature who could learn Occlumency, in any case [14:43] <ProngsPatronus> however, he may learn Legilimency [14:43] <mishale> so you think the harry being able to feel the feelings of lv is because lv used harrys blood [14:43] <Aislinn> Harry shouldn't learn Occlumency, even if he could [14:43] <Narya> He may, PP [14:43] <Kneazly> In HBP LV doesn't seem to try and influence Harry, give him dreams etc., as he did before [14:43] <penguin1124> ture [14:43] <Aislinn> It is antithetical to his greatest strength [14:44] <bookworm1102> why Aislynn [14:44] <penguin1124> well lv was using occlumency so that harry couldn't see what he was up to [14:44] <Aislinn> he needs to be open, vulnerable - that is what Love is [14:44] <penguin1124> excatly [14:44] <Poet> We saw that it affected Harry in Book 5. Since Harry has to vanquish Voldemort, I think it's what Harry can do with the connection...it will have to be something active on Harry's part. [14:44] <You_wont_know_who> Harry will find his unique way to defeat LV [14:44] <Narya> LV is more afraid of Harry than Harry is of LV [14:44] <fawkes28> yes, which is why it is not his strength [14:44] <janieb> One awesome theory I read--sorry I can't remember--said maybe the connection will give Harry empathy for Snape b/c he sees him through DD'd eyes [14:44] <ProngsPatronus> "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves" [14:44] <Aislinn> yes, narya, that is very true [14:44] <fawkes28> harry's heart is an open book [14:44] <ProngsPatronus> is how DD put it [14:44] <Poet> I think you're right Narya. [14:44] <fawkes28> yes, but look who says that, prongs [14:44] <Narya> But DD was so wise, PP - he said that for a reason [14:45] <ProngsPatronus> Dumbledore says it [14:45] <Aislinn> right, prongs, harry is just that kind of fool, but it is going to be that kind of fool that will bring down Voldy [14:45] <penguin1124> yes [14:45] <ProngsPatronus> exactly, Aislinn [14:45] <Kneazly> It's Snape who said that. [14:45] <bookworm1102> agreed [14:45] <Narya> Harry has DD's mantle - that is vital [14:45] <Aislinn> What did the mysterious 'gleam of triumph' in Dumbledore's eyes mean when he heard about this? [14:45] <Narya> Actually, they both said it - the quotes got mixed up [14:45] <Aislinn> yes [14:45] <You_wont_know_who> Harry won't need to learn even Legillimency, the connection is there to be used at his will [14:45] <penguin1124> i think that dd knew that now voldemort was able to be killed now [14:46] <Narya> DD's gleam of triumph means that he knows LV has made a mistake [14:46] <dustyfairy> i dont think it will be used [14:46] <You_wont_know_who> I agree - LV is indeed afraid of Harry [14:46] <penguin1124> i thimk with harry's blood, he can'tcreate any mroe horcruxes [14:46] <bookworm1102> soming incredible happened when Voldy got harrys blood [14:46] <ProngsPatronus> I think Dumbledore understood the ramifications of LV having Harry's blood [14:46] <dustyfairy> yeah [14:46] <fawkes28> i think it has something to do with old magic that Lord Voldemort has forgotten or chosen to ignore [14:46] <You_wont_know_who> but harry's heart is also his biggest asset [14:46] <Poet> Yes, that the blood link between them will help Harry more than it will help Voldemort. [14:46] <Aislinn> yes, fawkes, I think so too, and I do think it has to do with the link forged [14:46] <Narya> LV despises the old magic - he taunts DD with it in HBP - but it's an empty taunt [14:46] <Poet> Cool idea penguin1124 [14:46] <penguin1124> do u guys think he might not be able to make any more horcruxes now? [14:46] <Narya> DD knew better [14:46] <penguin1124> yeah [14:47] <fawkes28> yes, a deeper emotional connection [14:47] <ProngsPatronus> it is interesting, too, that LV once again made Harry his equal---his "brother" [14:47] <ProngsPatronus> by using the blood [14:47] <bookworm1102> and arnthere wands brothers too [14:47] <Narya> Blood brothers [14:47] <janieb> Ohh--very interesting Prongs [14:47] <Narya> The old magic [14:47] <Aislinn> that's an interesting thought, penguin [14:47] <penguin1124> but i mean killing is such a act of evil, and now if he has love in his blood, he might not be able to use the rip that killing creats [14:47] <fawkes28> yes [14:47] <Kneazly> Got to go, bye all [14:47] <Poet> bye [14:47] <Aislinn> bye Kneazly [14:47] <bookworm1102> bye [14:47] *** Kneazly left #lounge [] [14:48] <penguin1124> or something like that [14:48] <janieb> bye Kneazely [14:48] <Aislinn> Lord Voldemort and Harry also share Fawkes’ feather as a wand core. We know that their wands will not work properly against each other. How will this affect the final battle? [14:48] <fawkes28> it is a powerful connection to share the same blood [14:48] <You_wont_know_who> Dumbledore might have his own suggestions but he was unwilling to share [14:48] <penguin1124> well i really hope there is another prior incatartem [14:48] <ProngsPatronus> I think we will see wandless magic [14:48] <ProngsPatronus> and fawkes [14:48] <penguin1124> i really liked that scence in book 4 [14:48] <You_wont_know_who> maybe it means that even he wasn't tottaly sure about the blood issue [14:48] <fawkes28> i think it will be a battle of minds and wills [14:48] <janieb> Ithink Harry will overcome LV without a wand [14:48] <Narya> Harry beat LV back at fourteen in the graveyard - that can happen again [14:49] <fawkes28> yes, prongs - i think fawkes will come into play as well [14:49] <You_wont_know_who> right, PP and Narya [14:49] <Narya> I also think that Fawkes will return [14:49] <bookworm1102> Could Harry posibly get a new wand just for the final battle like somthing happens to his old one [14:49] <dustyfairy> lots of people are suggesting he will use love [14:49] <You_wont_know_who> blood brothers or even twin brothers - one white the second black [14:49] <Aislinn> it seems wandless, based on the US cover [14:49] <Narya> I don't think Harry will get a new wand - the wand is part of who he is [14:49] <You_wont_know_who> bye [14:49] <penguin1124> yeah [14:49] <fawkes28> i do not think we will see prior incantatum again - i think that fulfilled its roles [14:49] <penguin1124> yeah probably not but it was a cool scene [14:50] <Narya> Priori Incantatem will not return, but Harry's ability to beat LV back by whatever means is still there [14:50] <fawkes28> yes, it is not about unforgivable curses in the end - their connection to each other runs deeper than that [14:50] <ProngsPatronus> I think it was instructive to LV [14:50] <penguin1124> yeah [14:50] <ProngsPatronus> harry beat down the will of the Dark Lord [14:50] <RudiusHagrid> LV will know now not to try that again [14:50] <Narya> Showing LV his strength [14:50] <penguin1124> that he really can't fight harry with his wand [14:50] <fawkes28> we love feelings of love have to be involved and fawkes can help with that [14:50] <mishale> if lv knows about the wand... what would he do now? get another wand or not trying to kill harry himself? or something else? [14:50] <Dreamteam> LV might have taken Ollivander to create a new wand [14:50] <Poet> They both speak with parsletongue, so they share a tongue and now share blood too. Some say they share soul. They share magical cores or "fire". I do think its about will now. [14:50] <Aislinn> he did, prongs, and I think that really scared LV, which is why he was so intent on hearing the rest of the prophecy after that [14:50] <bookworm1102> what if Harry uses LVs greatest fear against him? [14:51] <penguin1124> well what is his greatest fear? [14:51] <penguin1124> being normal? [14:51] <RudiusHagrid> death [14:51] <You_wont_know_who> Harry doesn't need a new wand [14:51] <fawkes28> but it defeats the purpose if he gets another wand [14:51] <penguin1124> yeah [14:51] <Poet> Yes, Harry doesn't fear death like Voldemort does [14:51] <penguin1124> the wands connect them [14:51] <bookworm1102> and being a muggle [14:51] <JaneMarple9> harry has never feared death [14:51] <penguin1124> no [14:51] <janieb> What could Ollivander use to make LV a more powerful wand? [14:51] <penguin1124> he has feared fear itself [14:51] <RudiusHagrid> Dumbledore and Arthur went to great pains to avoid the wand being destroyed in the beginning of OotP [14:52] <dustyfairy> he embraced death at the end of OotP [14:52] <bookworm1102> in a way doesnt harry expct death? [14:52] <Aislinn> they did, Rudi [14:52] <Dreamteam> doesn't need to be more powerful, just not the same core [14:52] <You_wont_know_who> LV has to try and fight Harry to prove he is superior [14:52] <RudiusHagrid> i think that is significant [14:52] <You_wont_know_who> and then he'll lose [14:52] <penguin1124> yeah [14:52] <RudiusHagrid> also you cant just replace your wand [14:52] <janieb> I see, Dream [14:52] <Narya> There is a reason why the wand chooses the wizard, but I also think the woods are significant [14:52] <penguin1124> well u can [14:52] <penguin1124> neville did [14:52] <fawkes28> i truly think that harry will be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to destroy voldemort and an old magic will invoke and he will survive while voldemort dies [14:52] <dustyfairy> ron replaced his wand [14:53] <penguin1124> and others have [14:53] <RudiusHagrid> the wand chooses the wizard, not the other way around [14:53] <Aislinn> I think that Fawkes is a representative of an aspect of Love, through Loyalty, and has created a tip in the balance of events, towards the side of good [14:53] <penguin1124> but u can get a new one [14:53] <Poet> The battle in Book 4 was in a graveyard. Voldemort couldn't use his wand to defeat Harry. It was a battle of wills almost - Harry was bolstered by those "echos" of his loved ones. The final battle may have similar ties to death and will power and loved ones [14:53] <RudiusHagrid> ron never ha his wand beofre CoS he had a hand-me-down [14:53] <penguin1124> yes [14:53] <Aislinn> yes, Poet, I agree with that [14:53] <penguin1124> thats true [14:53] <Dreamteam> if there isn't another with a phoenix core and another wand is needed then another wand would choose the wizard [14:53] <penguin1124> but neville also got a new wand [14:53] <RudiusHagrid> and its probably why he struggled in the beginning [14:53] <Narya> The final battles will depend on whose will is the stronger [14:53] <fawkes28> the phoenix song causes hurt in the person's heart who is impure [14:53] <janieb> Nicely said, Poet [14:53] <ProngsPatronus> not only that, LV was surrounded by yew trees in that scene, but it didn't help him [14:53] <You_wont_know_who> if you are afraid of something you can easily make a mistake, the mistake of LV was Horcruxes [14:54] <Narya> Right PP [14:54] *** dustyfairy has quit [Bye] [14:54] <RudiusHagrid> because a wizard may be able to use another wand but you bever get as good results [14:54] <Narya> LV has a yew wand [14:54] <fawkes28> yes, poet - a battle of wills and i think harry is stronger [14:54] <penguin1124> k [14:54] <Narya> Harry has holly [14:54] <Aislinn> yes, YWKW - his desire to prevent his greatest fear has actually created it in a way more complete than death ever could have [14:54] <Narya> Ancient magic [14:54] <Aislinn> as he has now killed his soul [14:54] <Dreamteam> yes, but using a new wand could be yet another of LVs mistakes [14:54] <penguin1124> that could be a possibilty [14:55] <Narya> I think LV will keep his wand - as will Harry [14:55] <Poet> Something of the old magic was working in Harry's favor and against Voldemort in that graveyard. Voldemort has the blood of the Riddles upon his hands and they werre buried there. [14:55] <mishale> I think lv will try to get a another wand [14:55] <fawkes28> interesting point, dreamteam [14:55] <Narya> there is a reason why Jo gave them those woods [14:55] <Aislinn> I do too, narya [14:55] <janieb> So true, Aislinn [14:55] <bookworm1102> thats intersting dreamteam [14:55] <ProngsPatronus> yes--harry used the bone of his victim---his father [14:55] <You_wont_know_who> getting a new wand is pointless as it's more about the values than about means [14:55] <Aislinn> I think that Fawkes was essential to that as well, Poet [14:55] <Dreamteam> for an intelligent, powerful wizard he's made too many mistakes [14:55] <penguin1124> prongs, u mean lv right [14:56] <You_wont_know_who> right Narya [14:56] <ProngsPatronus> yes, penguin [14:56] <fawkes28> he always underestimates - every single time [14:56] <Aislinn> Is there something about Lily’s sacrifice that we still do not know? What could it be? [14:56] <Dreamteam> agree fawkes [14:56] <ProngsPatronus> oh, I think there is loads we still do not know about that! [14:56] <Poet> We know that she didn't have to die, but we don't know why [14:56] <penguin1124> well it could be that maybe lv needed lily for some reason [14:56] <ProngsPatronus> I think he did [14:56] <Narya> I think we still have to find out more about the kind of witch Lily really was [14:56] <fawkes28> i think we will see how far the effects her sacrifice continue to protect harry after he comes of age [14:57] <Aislinn> yes, I think that he thought he would be able to use her for something [14:57] <Dreamteam> why did LV give her the chance to save herself? [14:57] <ProngsPatronus> voldemort only keeps those alive who have some use for him [14:57] <penguin1124> i mean we have only seen very few scenes with lily [14:57] <penguin1124> just in the pensive [14:57] <janieb> I think we know mostly about the sacrifice, but her not powers as a witch and her relationships [14:57] <penguin1124> and she might be different that wwe have seen [14:57] <ProngsPatronus> and what she did for a living [14:57] <Narya> Lily thwarted him - he won't have forgotten that - and he'll want to understand why [14:57] <bookworm1102> maybe she had somthing LVwanted besides harry [14:57] <Dreamteam> he was said to be good at charms and potions [14:57] <You_wont_know_who> their wands are a part of their identity [14:57] <ProngsPatronus> that will be critical, I think [14:57] <Aislinn> it will be fascinating to see what skills she had that LV would have valued [14:57] <ProngsPatronus> I think she was an alchemist [14:57] <RudiusHagrid> potions [14:57] <ProngsPatronus> and an Unpseakable [14:57] <Aislinn> was she an Unspeakable, had some skills with potions he thought he needed, something else? [14:58] <Narya> She had a willow wand - good for Charms [14:58] <penguin1124> well she was amazing at potions [14:58] <penguin1124> we know that [14:58] <RudiusHagrid> Lily was very good at options [14:58] <fawkes28> i wonder if she had something that will help harry that may be given to him when he turns 17 [14:58] <Aislinn> ah, and alchemist would be interesting, prongs [14:58] <fawkes28> that is interesting, prongs [14:58] <ProngsPatronus> perhaps a stone of her own... [14:58] <bookworm1102> did they know about the prophcy [14:58] <You_wont_know_who> how she did it and why it worked [14:58] <penguin1124> u think she had one? [14:58] <fawkes28> jo ties her books very close to alchemy [14:58] <Poet> We found out in Book 6 that she was very well-liked. Already people (like Slughorn) were willing to give Harry info he needed because of the type of person Lily was. [14:58] <janieb> do you have a guess about her work, Prings [14:58] <Narya> And another link to Godric's Hollow and Bowman Wright, maybe - PP? [14:58] <You_wont_know_who> why her eyes are so important [14:58] <penguin1124> yeah [14:58] <janieb> oops--Prongs? [14:58] <You_wont_know_who> why Harry has inherited them [14:58] <RudiusHagrid> youd probably need to be very good at options to make a sourcerer's stone... [14:58] <Aislinn> except, as DD said, LV would not have wanted to rely on that, but he might have wanted to augment his Horcruxes with a Stone [14:58] <ProngsPatronus> I think we saw the importance of her eyes [14:58] <bookworm1102> b/c there harrys eyes [14:59] <fawkes28> but voldemort would have killed her if she had one [14:59] <penguin1124> her eyes have been the only thing that connects harry to her mother [14:59] <ProngsPatronus> exactly, aislinn [14:59] <Aislinn> in what way, Prongs? [14:59] <Narya> Alchemy would be my guess, linked to metallurgy and the Unspeakable job at the MoM [14:59] <bookworm1102> maybe her eye had some special power [14:59] <ProngsPatronus> I think getting that memory from slughorn was the importance that JKR meant [15:00] <Poet> I have to agree Narya. I also think its possible he might have thought she had special access to an object he needed - could be one of the founder objects [15:00] <penguin1124> has any1 ever wonderded if harry's parent's had horcruxes/ [15:00] <You_wont_know_who> Unspeakable at such a young age? [15:00] <You_wont_know_who> a bit impossible in my opinion [15:00] <ProngsPatronus> but it is what she did--and what she was capable of doing, I think, that is going to be hugely important [15:00] <Aislinn> that it was her eyes, seen in her son, that tipped Slughorn into giving the memory? [15:00] <Narya> I don't think so [15:00] <You_wont_know_who> it's more about her character [15:00] <bookworm1102> or if they were hourcxes [15:00] <mishale> i just thought the eyes are said to show your soul or your character... so it's a symbol of what harry inherited from lily [15:00] <Narya> Lily was a special witch [15:00] <RudiusHagrid> her eyes linked them - harry looks like his father, but the eyes are the window to the soul, and at heart HArry is mmore like his mother - more comapassionate [15:00] <fawkes28> she was talented [15:00] <Narya> Agreed, Rudius [15:00] <Aislinn> yes, Rudi, I agree [15:00] <ProngsPatronus> yes, Aislinn [15:00] <JaneMarple9> she was the hermione o0f her day [15:00] <penguin1124> yes [15:00] <Narya> Yet Harry is also his father's son [15:01] <Aislinn> although he has his father's courage and nobility [15:01] <Narya> And Sirius's godson [15:01] <penguin1124> yes [15:01] <janieb> And his mother's caring [15:01] <Narya> we know that from DD, and it's so important [15:01] <Aislinn> yes [15:01] <ProngsPatronus> lots of love inherent in that, narya [15:01] <penguin1124> all of his parent's best qualities [15:01] <Narya> Yes [15:01] <RudiusHagrid> yes but in the battle agains Voldemort, courage and nobility will not work as much as compassion and love will [15:01] <ProngsPatronus> love doesn't come just from Lily, but from them all [15:01] <JaneMarple9> harry's a mixture of james lily and sirius [15:01] <Narya> I think it's a mix of all of them, Rudius [15:01] <Narya> And none of them are possessed by LV [15:02] <fawkes28> Harry is his own person - which makes him so unique [15:02] <Narya> which is even more important [15:02] <Aislinn> it will take courage and nobility to enter the arena with his head held high, Rudi [15:02] <JaneMarple9> as far as we know nayra laugh [15:02] <penguin1124> yeah [15:02] <RudiusHagrid> id disagree - it takea an ammount of courage to do what Voldemort did [15:02] <Aislinn> and then the compassion and love will finish the job [15:02] <Narya> There is a reason why Harry has DD's mantle - he just needs to remember everything DD told him [15:02] <Narya> there is more in DD's words than Harry realises [15:02] <penguin1124> bye [15:02] <JaneMarple9> yep [15:02] <ProngsPatronus> DD also said that harry knows more than he thinks he knows [15:02] <janieb> I like that, Aislinn [15:03] *** penguin1124 left #lounge [] [15:03] <Narya> Missed that Rudius, and I disagree [15:03] <Narya> LV has no courage [15:03] <RudiusHagrid> bye penguin [15:03] <fawkes28> he will be fine - harry has really become a strong young man - he knows he purpose and will seek it to the end or die trying [15:03] <You_wont_know_who> she was better than Hermione, she was more intuitive This post has been edited by Poet: Jun 3 2007, 06:22 PM |
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Jun 3 2007, 06:22 PM
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Total Eclipse of the Elf Posts: 2,102 Joined: 4:47pm July 3, 2005 Location: Kansas City |
[15:03] <Aislinn> Dumbledore extended the Old Magic even further when he persuaded Lily’s sister to take Harry into her home, where he remains safe until he is of age. What do you imagine will happen the moment Harry turns 17?
[15:04] <bookworm1102> run for his life [15:04] <Narya> Harry will never run [15:04] <Aislinn> Harry does not run [15:04] <janieb> I think the Dursley's will be in more danger [15:04] <Aislinn> i agree, janieb [15:04] <Aislinn> and I think Harry will rescue them [15:04] <Dreamteam> the Dursley's may neen his protection [15:04] <You_wont_know_who> both parents are important to Harry and all that will play a role [15:04] <ProngsPatronus> I think Lv is counting the days [15:04] <Poet> I think the Book 7 cover art text gives us a glimpse into that. [15:04] <fawkes28> i think he will protect the dursleys [15:04] <You_wont_know_who> the bravery of James and a compassion of Lilly [15:05] <ProngsPatronus> I do, too, fawkes [15:05] <fawkes28> harry is not heartless - he knows voldemort will come after him as soon as the magic wears ooff [15:05] <Narya> Harry is already a man - he was at fourteen. The protection might "wear off" but the love Lily had for her son infuses Harry's skin. LV can't compette against taht [15:05] <You_wont_know_who> right LV has inherited only bad things, apart from his good looks and brain [15:05] <janieb> I agree, Aislinn and Fawles [15:05] <Dreamteam> that's Harry 's revenge, that the Dursleys will need to be grateful to him [15:05] *** Love4Fawkes has joined #lounge [15:05] <Aislinn> well said, narya! [15:05] <ProngsPatronus> hey, L4F [15:05] <Aislinn> hi Love4Fawkes [15:05] <Dreamteam> Hi Love4fawkes [15:05] <bookworm1102> I know he will protect the dursly and everything but my question would be would he really want too [15:05] <fawkes28> i think Voldemort will come for him - and be arrogant as ever and once again harry will get away [15:05] <Narya> Oh, no Dreamteam - no revenge [15:05] <fawkes28> hey love [15:05] <Dreamteam> he will do what is rightg [15:06] <Love4Fawkes> hey everyone [15:06] <Aislinn> look at how he protected dudley from the Dementors bookworm [15:06] <ProngsPatronus> I think he will do it because it is the right thing to do--not because it would be easy [15:06] <Aislinn> it is Harry's nature, in spite of the way the Dursleys have treated him [15:06] <Narya> Harry has never shirked from doing the right thing [15:06] <ProngsPatronus> he will remember that DD told them of the house [15:06] <You_wont_know_who> right Prongs, Harry has a huge potential but he is like a king in rags - doesn't know how to use his assets [15:06] <fawkes28> remember - harry has shown some appreciation for petunia in OotP - he would want to protect his mother's sister - even it is for that reason alone [15:07] <ProngsPatronus> very well said, YWKW [15:07] <You_wont_know_who> he will move out and start a new chapter of his life [15:07] <You_wont_know_who> and independent chapter [15:07] <bookworm1102> i think he would do the right thing but it also makes me think of what dumbledore said you kow choose whats right or whats easy [15:07] <You_wont_know_who> they need him more than Harry needs the Dursleys [15:07] <Dreamteam> I think he was touched by the similarity between Petunia and his mother when she realised LV had returned [15:08] <mishale> harry alone can't protect the dursleys.... they'll probably need a hiding place [15:08] <Narya> I think for once Harry saw her as a human being [15:08] <Aislinn> yes, dreamteam, and I think we will learn more of that at the start of DH [15:08] <bookworm1102> agrees narya [15:08] *** You_wont_know_who has quit [Bye] [15:08] *** You_wont_know_who has joined #lounge [15:08] <RudiusHagrid> regardless of what happens, if the Dursleys are attacked, Harry would protectt hem [15:08] <Dreamteam> yes he will [15:08] <Aislinn> Merope wished for Tom to look like his father. Prongs brings up the questions, “Did Merope use the last of her magical power to ensure that her son would not suffer as she had? Did she access the Old Magic to do so?” [15:08] <RudiusHagrid> he would not be able to stand idly by and watch someone killed [15:09] <ProngsPatronus> it was her dying wish, too [15:09] <Poet> The Gaunt family "look" was so strong, that I imagine that magic had to have helped her son's looks. [15:09] <Aislinn> I don't think she deliberately did, but it is possible that she inadvertently did, in the interest of protecting her son [15:09] <fawkes28> i think she was still in obsessive love and cared more about his looks rather than who he would become as a person [15:09] <You_wont_know_who> she might have done it, yes [15:09] <bookworm1102> but in a way LV did suffer didnt he just not the way she thought [15:09] *** lothlorien has joined #lounge [15:09] <Poet> I agree that is wasn't deliberate [15:09] <Aislinn> yes, fawkes, that seemed to be foremost [15:09] <ProngsPatronus> hey, lothlorien [15:09] <Aislinn> hi lothlorien [15:09] <Love4Fawkes> that's a great point fawkes [15:09] <Narya> I think Merope cared deeply for her son [15:09] <fawkes28> i don't think she would have used magic intentially [15:09] <You_wont_know_who> hi lothlorien [15:09] <Poet> It was her one last strong desire [15:09] <ProngsPatronus> well, she was not a pretty woman [15:09] <fawkes28> hi lothlorien [15:09] <Aislinn> repeat of question: Merope wished for Tom to look like his father. Prongs brings up the questions, “Did Merope use the last of her magical power to ensure that her son would not suffer as she had? Did she access the Old Magic to do so?” [15:09] <lothlorien> Hi everyone! [15:09] <RudiusHagrid> the gaunt family genetics were so interbred that its entirely possiblr that the Riddle blood was stronger [15:10] <ProngsPatronus> life is different for those who are not considered pretty [15:10] <Love4Fawkes> hi lothlorien [15:10] <mishale> that is possible but just could be chance that he got the looks from the father [15:10] <fawkes28> right, prongs - she was thinking superficially here [15:10] <RudiusHagrid> hence Tom got all his Father's traits [15:10] <Poet> I think the magic was accessed through desire. She's suffered greatly because of her looks. [15:10] <You_wont_know_who> she saw the power of beauty and wanted her son to have this power [15:10] <Aislinn> yes, prongs, that is true [15:10] <You_wont_know_who> she was thinking about her own experiences [15:10] <ProngsPatronus> to me, it is a tragedy [15:10] <fawkes28> look where obsessive love got her son - i think it shows us that this type of love is more powerful than the AK curse [15:10] <Narya> I do think that Merope accessed the old magic, because she loved her unborn child so much that she used the last of her strength to reach a place of safety for him before she died [15:10] <Aislinn> and his beauty was definitely something he used to his advantage at school and on that first job, YWKW [15:10] <ProngsPatronus> a pretty face at the expense of a good heart [15:11] <You_wont_know_who> but Tom has inherited also a lot of talent [15:11] <fawkes28> she clearly was a sick young woman [15:11] <ProngsPatronus> I do, narya [15:11] <mishale> why should riddle blood be stronger... they just kept on marrying each other that's why they looked alike [15:11] <ProngsPatronus> she didn't have a wand [15:11] <You_wont_know_who> it was up to him what he wanted to use [15:11] <Poet> Yes, unfortunately so Aislinn. To his own detriment and others [15:11] <Aislinn> yes [15:11] <Narya> Right PP - she only had herself [15:11] <You_wont_know_who> right Aislinn, my thoughts exactly [15:11] <RudiusHagrid> well the riddles would be coming from a bigger gene pool [15:11] <Love4Fawkes> did she love her unborn so that much, or was she still obsessed with the father. Tom himself points out she doesn't even use magic to save herself [15:11] <ProngsPatronus> and she was in the throes of an ancient grip, too--childbirth [15:12] <bookworm1102> true [15:12] <ProngsPatronus> so it is very possible that she accessed the Old magic [15:12] <fawkes28> she was completely selfish on her death bed, which cost the wizarding world a great deal [15:12] <Aislinn> she may have used all she had left to give, Love4Fawkes, in the dying wish she had for her son [15:12] <janieb> She loved him the only way she understood [15:12] <Narya> Merope loved too much, but that is not a crime - it was only a crime in the way that she was mistreated by those she loved [15:12] <RudiusHagrid> the gaunts were intermarrying, thereby keeping all their genetic traist in the family, but never adding new stock [15:12] <ProngsPatronus> I think she gave him what she herself would have liked to have [15:12] <Aislinn> right janieb [15:12] <bookworm1102> she problaby used old magic w/o knowing it [15:12] <You_wont_know_who> she loved Tom's father as much as her unborn child [15:13] <Aislinn> In Philosopher’s Stone, one of the ways that Voldemort keeps himself alive is through the use of unicorn’s blood, which is supposed to give him a cursed life. Will this come back to haunt him in the 7th book? [15:13] <fawkes28> but what she lacked was love her herself [15:13] <Dreamteam> she had never really received love so probably didn't know how to use it properlhy [15:13] <You_wont_know_who> the old magic - what exactly do you mean PP? [15:13] <You_wont_know_who> what does it consists of? [15:13] <Narya> Definitely - there is no escape from the cursed life for LV [15:13] <bookworm1102> more than likly it will effect his out come in the final battle [15:13] <fawkes28> oh, i definitely think this is going to come back to haunt him - i have felt strongly about this since i read PS [15:13] <Aislinn> love protection, ywkw [15:13] <RudiusHagrid> the primal unaltered undistilled magic accesed by raw emotion [15:14] <ProngsPatronus> it consists of love, birth, death--all the ancient constants of the human being [15:14] <Love4Fawkes> it was actually quirell that drank the unicorn blood, so did it affect LV? [15:14] <You_wont_know_who> unicorn's blood will haunt him forever [15:14] <janieb> I've always wondered when the curse took effect--and what it means for LV. Tom Riddle's life has seemed cursed for so long now [15:14] <You_wont_know_who> it was as if he killed an innocent person - Lilly - again [15:14] <fawkes28> he killed one of the purest things on this earth - it will come back to get him [15:14] <You_wont_know_who> and killed her for nothing else but her love and noble feelings [15:14] <RudiusHagrid> well it depends on if babymort still exists somewhere in voldemorts new body [15:14] <Love4Fawkes> you're right janieb. is it possible for LV's life to be more cursed? [15:14] <mishale> i wondered it lv wasn't already that cursed that it didn't make any more a big difference [15:14] <Aislinn> I've seen someone theorize that the pain that Harry experiences when LV tried to possess him is actually the pain that LV is experiencing every day, and that this might be due to this choice he made [15:14] <RudiusHagrid> because babymort was made using venom and unicorn blood [15:15] <fawkes28> i think we will see it somehow come up again because i believe the books mirror each other - it started with book one and will end with book 7 [15:15] <Love4Fawkes> oh right. good point rudiushagrid [15:15] <bookworm1102> do you think it would all come back to haunt him killing people, the unicorns blood stuff like that ? [15:15] <Narya> Do you think LV has enough humanity to experience pain, Aislinn? [15:15] <Aislinn> babymort is what turned into the current LV, rudi [15:15] <You_wont_know_who> what goes around, comes around [15:15] <Aislinn> I don't know, Narya [15:16] <fawkes28> nicely said, ywkw [15:16] <Narya> I doubt it [15:16] <janieb> Very interesting and well said, Aislinn [15:16] <RudiusHagrid> yes but did babymort die in the cauldron and replaced by a new body [15:16] <Aislinn> I thought it was an interesting thought though, and may help with harry learning compassion for this evil soul [15:16] <RudiusHagrid> or did it develop into the new body [15:16] <ProngsPatronus> I think that, as a homonculus, LV has been in a half-life already [15:16] <Aislinn> I don't think it died [15:16] <Love4Fawkes> no, babymort transformed into the new body [15:16] *** bubblehead has joined #lounge [15:16] <Narya> Oh, it is - very interesting [15:16] <fawkes28> hey bubblehead [15:16] <ProngsPatronus> hey, bubble [15:16] <You_wont_know_who> maybe he can sense pain in a way or the other [15:16] <Aislinn> hi bubblehead [15:16] <Narya> I don't think Babymort died either [15:16] <fawkes28> it is still who he is - he cares that action with him and he will have to pay for his actions [15:17] <Love4Fawkes> so Horcruxes give LV a half-life, and drinking Unicorn blood gives him a cursed life [15:17] <fawkes28> *carries [15:17] <Dreamteam> neither do I, I think it was a progression [15:17] <You_wont_know_who> hi bubblehead [15:17] <bubblehead> hello [15:17] <RudiusHagrid> well if we are in agreement that babymort developed into voldemort's new body then the curse of the unicorn blood remains [15:17] <fawkes28> yes, love - the outlook isn't so good for him [15:17] <Love4Fawkes> hi bubblehead [15:17] <Aislinn> yes, Love4Fawkes - not a great existence, eh? [15:17] <fawkes28> yes, it does, rudi [15:17] <Narya> Unicorn blood gave him both of those, Love4Fawkes [15:18] <fawkes28> but i think it would have no matter what because - an action like that effects his soul more so than which body he has [15:18] <Aislinn> In Chamber of Secrets, Harry has the blood of the basilisk on him. Later, in the graveyard scene in GoF, Nagini remain close to Harry. Prongs wonders, “Was she attracted by the magical residue of the “King” of the Serpents?” [15:18] <Love4Fawkes> well it seems to me to LV is certainly doomed given what he has don [15:18] <Love4Fawkes> *done [15:18] <janieb> I agree, Fawkes [15:18] <You_wont_know_who> homonculus or not the progress from one stage to the other was too quick and therefore, will be disastrous [15:18] <Aislinn> ooh, this is an interesting thought [15:18] <You_wont_know_who> he will get old as quickly (LV) [15:18] <fawkes28> i never thought about this before until prongs brought it up [15:18] <RudiusHagrid> i think nangini was promised Harry's corpse [15:18] <bubblehead> whoa. that's trippy. never thought of that. [15:19] <Narya> I think she's attracted by the king [15:19] <bookworm1102> is it asking wither or not harry stiil has the blood of the basilisk [15:19] <Love4Fawkes> this is an interesting thought. I always thought nangini was waiting for Harry to die [15:19] <fawkes28> i have always wondered if she will listen to harry because he also can talk to snakes [15:19] <Aislinn> blood residue remains in small traces, bookworm [15:19] <You_wont_know_who> ooooh wonderful connection, Nagini and the basilisk, but I don't know if she sensed anything [15:19] <fawkes28> i am sure she sensed his power and greatness [15:19] <Aislinn> yes, fawkes, that is an interesting possibility [15:20] <Aislinn> it may be another instance of whose will is going to be stronger [15:20] <bubblehead> i think she just wanted to eat harry's body after voldy killed him.... [15:20] <bookworm1102> do you think nagini may help Harry in the end [15:20] <Love4Fawkes> i have wondered that too fawkes. it would be interesting [15:20] <Aislinn> who can call Nagini [15:20] <RudiusHagrid> nangini may have sensed he'd killed a basilisk and was curious as to how he could have done this but be caught by humans [15:20] <janieb> So many interesting blood references and tie-in, Prongs. Wonderful work! [15:20] <Poet> I've been hoping that Nagini would be confused about who is his master since Harry has parsletongue and Voldemort has Harry's blood. They might smell alike to Nagini now. [15:20] <ProngsPatronus> and another curious instance of "equality" [15:20] <Narya> I think Nagini certainly does sense Harry's power [15:20] <ProngsPatronus> thanks, janie [15:20] <fawkes28> or that nagini will not listen when voldemort asks her to attack [15:20] <You_wont_know_who> maybe Harry is now a real Slytherin king? [15:20] <You_wont_know_who> as Salazar should be? [15:20] <You_wont_know_who> but failed [15:20] <Narya> Never a Slytherin king [15:21] <fawkes28> oh, very nice thinking, poet - interesting [15:21] <bookworm1102> maybe she is attracted to the most powerful [15:21] <ProngsPatronus> that is a good thought, poet [15:21] <Aislinn> or the one with the strongest will, bookworm [15:21] <janieb> Ooh, Poet--even more interesting if Nagini IS a horcrux [15:21] <ProngsPatronus> or houses one [15:21] <bookworm1102> ooh intersting [15:21] <Aislinn> and we saw that Harry had the stronger will in the graveyard [15:21] <Love4Fawkes> oh right janieb! that could be interesting [15:21] <RudiusHagrid> I dont think that entirely possible - if Nangini is a horcrux then she has a part of Voldemort's soul in there "driving" her too [15:21] <You_wont_know_who> Harry was supposed to be in the Slytherin house [15:22] <mishale> but what if nagini is a horcrux... won't she listen to lv because she has part of his soul in her [15:22] <Narya> A basilisk is also known as "Regulus" - and Regulus is the "little king" - the link to the king of the serpents [15:22] <You_wont_know_who> he had all the markings for that house [15:22] <Narya> Harry wasn't supposed to be in Slytherin [15:22] <fawkes28> Jo has talked about snake lore - snakes are often associated with evil, but something tells me that this is not necessarily true [15:22] <Narya> He chose not to go [15:22] <RudiusHagrid> no he is a true gryffindor otherwise hed never been able to pulll out Godric's sword [15:22] <Love4Fawkes> no, since harry chose gryfindor that is where he belongs [15:22] <lothlorien> Could it just be an attraction to Harry because he is also a parcel tongue and Nagini recognizes him as a similar figure to Voldemort? [15:22] <bubblehead> he's a true gryffindor [15:22] <janieb> Didn't know that, Fawkes--that would be so JKR to turn it on its ear [15:23] <ProngsPatronus> snakes are also associated with healing [15:23] <RudiusHagrid> also the hat never said he should be sorted there, only that he'd do well there [15:23] <fawkes28> yes, there is a whole thread on snake lore in Obscurus, janieb [15:23] <Narya> Which is why Snape had that skin in his private stores, PP [15:23] <You_wont_know_who> he was [15:23] <Poet> And snake lore may play an important role in Book 7, per an old interview with Jo. [15:23] <mishale> harry could be slytherin or griffendor, but he chose to be the latter [15:24] <You_wont_know_who> the sorting hat saw him in Slytherin house as the first choice [15:24] *** Dreamteam has quit [Bye] [15:24] <Narya> I disagree YWKW [15:24] <janieb> Thanks Fawkes, I'll check it out [15:24] *** ph63915 has joined #lounge [15:24] <Love4Fawkes> i guess you could see it that way YWKW, but that's not how I saw it [15:24] <bookworm1102> would be weird if harry was sorted into slytherin [15:24] <Narya> The Sorting Hat knew very well what Harry was [15:24] <ProngsPatronus> hey, ph [15:24] <Aislinn> not first choice, ywkw, just a possibilty [15:24] <ph63915> evening all [15:24] <lothlorien> HI, PH! [15:24] <Aislinn> hi ph63915 [15:24] <RudiusHagrid> i could say you'd do well as an accountant, and it could be true, but it doesnt mean thats the best choice for you [15:25] <bubblehead> it is our choices that make us what we truly are far more than our abilities....Harry is a true gryffindor regardless of what the sorting hat said [15:25] <Aislinn> exactly [15:25] <ProngsPatronus> I am thinking that the Sorting Hat gave Harry a chance to choose [15:25] <Aislinn> Harry’s blood was on the basilisk’s fang when he destroyed the diary. What significance does this have for the final book? [15:25] <Narya> Knowing that he'd choose Gryffindor [15:25] <ProngsPatronus> he suggested, but harry chose [15:25] <ProngsPatronus> it is a temptation--and harry did not choose it [15:25] <Poet> It is indicative of Harry's blood being Voldemort's downfall [15:25] <You_wont_know_who> the snakes are always close to Harry and haven't done any harm to him [15:25] <bookworm1102> what if he chose to be in sltherin though [15:25] <Narya> It's another example of Harry's power [15:26] *** Dreamteam has joined #lounge [15:26] <fawkes28> i think it is interesting that harry's blood destroyed the horcrux and now voldemort has that same blood [15:26] <You_wont_know_who> I would see him as a "good" Slytherin [15:26] <Aislinn> could it be Harry's blook that actually destroyed the Horcrux, rather than the fang? [15:26] <bubblehead> i agree with poet. harry;s blood will be the downfall of voldy [15:26] <Aislinn> I think it's an interesting thought [15:26] <bookworm1102> maybe it would have to take a snake to kill LV [15:26] <fawkes28> it also makes me wonder if harry's blood will destroy another horcrux [15:26] <Aislinn> blood, not blook biggrin [15:26] <Narya> That is an interesting one, Aislinn [15:26] <lothlorien> It foreshadows that Harry' blood will be LV's downfall. [15:27] <Poet> It also may mean that Harry has the ability to weld the power of the snake against Voldemort. The fang became like a sword. [15:27] <Aislinn> yes, lothlorien, I think it does [15:27] * You_wont_know_who is fighting a losing battle and she knows it [15:27] <Poet> aww [15:27] <fawkes28> his blood was poison to voldemort's soul [15:27] <ProngsPatronus> that is a very interesting thought, poet [15:27] <janieb> I agree with Lothlorien [15:27] <Love4Fawkes> that is for sure fawkes [15:27] <bookworm1102> maybeif nagini helps harry he would get her to help in some how killing LV [15:27] <fawkes28> see who as a good slytherin, ywkw? [15:27] <Poet> Harry is like a good Slytherin [15:27] <You_wont_know_who> no it was the fang but Harry's blood might have helped [15:28] *** futureweasley has joined #lounge [15:28] <fawkes28> hey future [15:28] <bubblehead> hi future [15:28] <futureweasley> hi all...sorry I'm so late [15:28] <Dreamteam> hi future [15:28] <ProngsPatronus> hey, future1 [15:28] <fawkes28> i dont think the fang alone would have done it [15:28] <bookworm1102> hi future [15:28] <Love4Fawkes> i had never given the fact that harry's blood was on the fang any thought, but it does seem significant now [15:28] <Love4Fawkes> hi furture [15:28] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has joined #lounge [15:28] <Narya> If Harry is like a good Slytherin, it turns JKR's focus on the power of choices on its head. I don't think that's it [15:28] <lothlorien> Hi, Future. [15:28] <Love4Fawkes> *future [15:28] <mishale> I think it was simple the snakes poisen that killed the diary [15:28] <Aislinn> hey chocolate [15:28] <ph63915> hmmm I always just assumed the poison from the fang was sufficient to destroy the book [15:28] <Poet> Oh, like an alchemical process, sort of like Galpolott's 3rd Law? [15:28] *** cbm has joined #lounge [15:28] <bookworm1102> hey choclate [15:29] <ProngsPatronus> hey, cbm! [15:29] <cbm> Hi [15:29] <lothlorien> Hey Chocolate! [15:29] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hey guys smile [15:29] <ProngsPatronus> chocolate! [15:29] <ProngsPatronus> hi! [15:29] <futureweasley> hi chocolate and cbm! Woot for late joiners! [15:29] <Love4Fawkes> hi chocloate and cbm [15:29] <Aislinn> cbm! [15:29] <futureweasley> I'm one of them, btw [15:29] <bubblehead> hi chocolate and cbm [15:29] <fawkes28> yes, but prongs chapter has gotten me to think that perhaps it was harry's blood [15:29] <Love4Fawkes> *chocolate [15:29] <Dreamteam> I think the fang released LV's soul captured in the diary [15:29] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast>  what's the q?[15:29] <You_wont_know_who> chocolate, how nice to see you!! [15:29] <Love4Fawkes> i give up trying to type today! [15:29] <ProngsPatronus> perhaps it was both of them [15:29] <cbm> what is the ? [15:29] *** janieb has quit [Bye] [15:29] <Narya> Like a combination of the venom and the love in Harry's blood - giving the diary no chance at all [15:29] <Dreamteam> the sould was represented by the ink used to write the diary [15:29] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha we totally just crashed this chat [15:30] <ProngsPatronus> we have the Heir of Slytherin being killed by Slytherin's pet [15:30] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> with our lateness [15:30] <Aislinn> What was Tom’s main reason for valuing the pure-bloods as the dominant wizards? [15:30] *** janieb has joined #lounge [15:30] <Aislinn> repeat for janieb: What was Tom’s main reason for valuing the pure-bloods as the dominant wizards? [15:30] <ProngsPatronus> their power and status in the WW, I think [15:30] <bookworm1102> because magic might come more naturally and more powerful to them [15:30] <mishale> he wanted to be special [15:30] <Narya> A focus on the twisted ideology that purity is somehow better [15:30] <cbm> I think he was a snob [15:30] <fawkes28> i think he wanted to follow in his ancestors footsteps - i think that put him over the edge with the whole pure blood dominance [15:30] *** You_wont_know_who has quit [Bye] [15:31] *** You_wont_know_who has joined #lounge [15:31] <ProngsPatronus> wb, YWKW [15:31] <janieb> (Thanks, Aislinn!) His role as Heir of Slytherin [15:31] <Dreamteam> bye yhwkw [15:31] <Love4Fawkes> he hated his father so much that he wanted to deny his exsistence and only embrace the "special" part of himself [15:31] <Aislinn> I think he sees wizards as all powerful and muggles as unbearably ordinary [15:31] <You_wont_know_who> I had to reconnect, sorry [15:31] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I agree with the Slytherinness... it's his defining feature, being Slytherin's heir, so i can imagine he would attach himself to those traditions [15:31] <bubblehead> i agree with love4fawkes [15:31] <Poet> It gave him a sense of purpose in life - to feel like he was carrying on the work of his ancestor [15:31] <ProngsPatronus> and he hates to be ordinary [15:31] <fawkes28> i think it went beyond his family although i do believe that influenced him [15:32] <fawkes28> exactly, poet [15:32] <Narya> He hated to be ordinary even as a child [15:32] <Aislinn> He wants to deny that side of himself, just as he wanted to disassociate himself from the ordinary name of Tom [15:32] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i don't think it's personal, because he should have hated his mother and purebloodedness for being weak, it seems [15:32] <lothlorien> His father's abandonment caused him to hate muggles and his muggle self. The alternative is to place great value on being a wizard and the power it could give him to overcome his meager beginnings to eventually grow into a Slytherin-like legend in the wizard world. [15:32] <You_wont_know_who> imagine LV's fury when he finds out that Harry would be a better Slytherin than him [15:32] <bookworm1102> i agree chocolate [15:32] <Aislinn> well put lothlorien [15:32] <cbm> Pure blood mother dies for him and muggle father ignores him, is it his love for the pureblood and hate for teh muggle? [15:32] <Love4Fawkes> i agree lothlorien [15:32] <Narya> Give it up, YWKW biggrin [15:32] <Dreamteam> lol ywkw [15:32] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> see, i don't know that, lothlorien... to hate his father for leaving him would suggest that he WANTED his father around, which I don't think is true [15:32] *** JaneMarple9 has quit [Bye] [15:33] <You_wont_know_who>  [15:33] <janieb> Yes, Lothlories [15:33] <fawkes28> hmmm, i just realized that it is similar to harry - harry always wanted some unknown relative to take him away - which i also think voldemort wanted and he just took it to the extreme when he found out about slytherin [15:33] <Love4Fawkes> i think he hated his father for being ordinary [15:33] <mishale> but for a long time he thought the father was the wizard [15:33] <Aislinn> yes, Love4Fawkes, I think he did [15:33] <You_wont_know_who> LV wanted his father around but he dreamt of another father [15:33] <Love4Fawkes> tom wanted to be special long before he knew he was a desendent of pureblooded wizards [15:33] <ProngsPatronus> and his mother is redeemed, somewhat, by her status [15:33] <Narya> There are no similarities except their blood status, their appearance when LV was younger, and the fact they're both orphans [15:33] <You_wont_know_who> he fancied a Malfoy for a father I suppose [15:34] <Narya> it's their choices which matter [15:34] <bookworm1102> that just it faekes harry and LV havw alot in common and that might affect the outcome to this whole thing [15:34] <janieb> Interesting, Fawkes [15:34] <fawkes28> yes, love - but i think being an heir pushed him over the edge [15:34] <Aislinn> Voldemort went further than any other wizard by making six Horcruxes plus the one remaining piece in his soul. How do you see this greed or excessiveness factoring into his downfall? [15:34] <Love4Fawkes> oh I certainly agree fawkes, it just started even before that [15:34] <bookworm1102> to make sure he lives [15:34] <You_wont_know_who> Harry thought very lowly of himself, LV- quite the opposite [15:34] <fawkes28> totally - he still thinks it is impossible for him to die [15:34] <Dreamteam> he thinks he's invincible [15:35] <Narya> LV sowed the seeds of his own destruction [15:35] <ProngsPatronus> he has no capacity for Love, or tolerance of it [15:35] <You_wont_know_who> yes it will be his ultimate downfall [15:35] *** penguin1124 has joined #lounge [15:35] <ProngsPatronus> he now has no way to rectify that lack [15:35] <fawkes28> he is completely arrogant and pompous that he cannot be defeated [15:35] <bubblehead> in my english class we discussed how in literature, more complictaed the plan is, the more easily it falls apart [15:35] <Aislinn> by attempting immortality, he destroyed any chance of it [15:35] <Dreamteam> wb penguin [15:35] <You_wont_know_who> it was the stupidest thing to do in fact [15:35] <Aislinn> it is our soul that goes on after death, but his won't now [15:35] <janieb> Splitting his soul so many times means he cannot come back to love--like Gollum could not receive compassion any more. He is too far gone. [15:35] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> he doesn't think of the consequences of his actions... he can manipulate people, he can gain power, he can become immortal, but like Dumbledore says, he doesn't stop to think of the advantages of an in-tact soul. Voldemort does what he needs to get something done.... he's goal oriented, focusing on getting immortality, or power, or killing Harry. He doesn't look past the goals. [15:35] <penguin1124> yes [15:35] <You_wont_know_who> he maimed his soul forever and he'll pay [15:35] <penguin1124> with his life [15:35] <fawkes28> splitting your soul that many times is excessive - it has done far more harm to his body than good [15:36] <cbm> I think it is excessiveness on his part. I think this excessiveness had made him arogant and he thinks he is invincible, [15:36] <ProngsPatronus> exactly, chocolate [15:36] <fawkes28> nice connection, janieb [15:36] <penguin1124> lv just doesn't understand the vody [15:36] <You_wont_know_who> oh chocolate it was sweet [15:36] <Aislinn> yes, cbm, and his arrogance is a weakness that Harry can exploit [15:36] *** JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge [15:36] <Love4Fawkes> ;he does think he's invincible and that will make him underestimate Harry's ability to destroy him [15:36] <cbm> It has also warped him beyond recognition [15:36] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Voldemort and Dumbledore are opposites in their ability to guess the consequences of their actions.. Voldemort doesn't stop to think what might happen if he attacks according to the prophecy, or what might happen if he uses Harry's blood [15:36] <bookworm1102> b/c he split his soul woulnt that make him less powerful than harry espechally when harry finds them [15:36] <Aislinn> he is no longer human [15:36] <penguin1124> he is to rash [15:37] <ProngsPatronus> yes, bookworm [15:37] <Aislinn> but then, he never valued anything about being human, other than life [15:37] <penguin1124> well he is human [15:37] <lothlorien> The Romans dreamed of creating such an empire, we all know what happened to them...in fact all such greedy, power hungry empires throughout history. Isn't LV trying to create his own empire by ensuring his immortality? [15:37] <penguin1124> but less human than anyone ever was [15:37] <You_wont_know_who> and his greed is as big as his ignorance (LV's I mean) [15:37] <Love4Fawkes> i'm not sure he value's life aislinn, he's just scared of death [15:37] <Narya> That's it, Aislinn - he gave up his humanity as a kid, well before he made those Horcruxes [15:37] <ProngsPatronus> I think so, lothlorien [15:37] <You_wont_know_who> I suppose LV thinks but he draws the wrong conclusions [15:37] <Aislinn> yes, lothlorien, he is, but as DD said, he is instead creating his own destruction [15:37] <bubblehead> by making the horcruxes he also made a weakness, and a path to destroy him [15:37] *** Spectre has joined #lounge [15:37] <You_wont_know_who> his moral values are wrong and his thinking is impaired [15:37] <Aislinn> hi Spectre [15:37] <lothlorien> Absolutley, Aislinn [15:38] <Spectre> hi all [15:38] <ProngsPatronus> hey, spectre [15:38] <Dreamteam> hi Spectre [15:38] <penguin1124> but do u think that it makes him weaker, making the horcruxes? [15:38] <bookworm1102> Lv wants to be in charge of his own fate [15:38] <Love4Fawkes> hi spectre [15:38] <bubblehead> hi spectre [15:38] <cbm> He is incapable of anything good now [15:38] <lothlorien> Hi Spec! [15:38] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> exactly, lothlorien... he's goal-focused... the way he gets to the goal is inconsequential to him... his choices along the way mean nothing to him, while dumbeldore recognizes that the choices along the way mean EVERYTHING [15:38] <ProngsPatronus> Lv does not have moral values [15:38] <Aislinn> yes, penguin, it makes him weaker in humanity [15:38] <penguin1124> but in doing so, he is making it so that his fate is sealed [15:38] <You_wont_know_who> hi spectre [15:38] <Aislinn> not in magical skills, but that is not essential [15:38] <Dreamteam> yes penguin he thinks it makes him stronger but he's wrong [15:38] <You_wont_know_who> yes it made him weaker when it comes to love magic [15:38] <penguin1124> k [15:39] <Aislinn> yes, chocolate, that is the critical factor that LV has never understood - the power and consequence of the choices one makes [15:39] <lothlorien> LV does not see any weakness in his plan, every horcrux only makes him stronger to his way of thinking. [15:39] <Spectre> hm... what's the topic? Voldemort? [15:39] <penguin1124> he is blind to his faults [15:39] <Aislinn> we are talking about blood and sacrifice spectre [15:39] <Poet> And about "old magic" [15:39] <Aislinn> right now we are talking about LV's choice to make Horcruxes [15:40] <Aislinn> yes, and the old magic [15:40] <Love4Fawkes> you are right lothlorien, and because he has 7 peices of his soul he thinks that too increases his strenth against death [15:40] <ProngsPatronus> it is such an irony, isn't it? [15:40] <penguin1124> which part [15:40] <bookworm1102> i think LV doesnt much about old magic as he thinks he does [15:40] <You_wont_know_who> and LV of course [15:40] <Spectre> heh, that was my first topic at Leaky - a funny algebraical thing on Horcruxes smile [15:40] <ProngsPatronus> that he creates virtual immortality by destroying that which is truly immortal [15:40] <penguin1124> i think he knows aspects of it very well and other aspects, he know nothing about [15:40] <janieb> Whoa--nicely said, Prongs [15:41] <penguin1124> like all magic [15:41] <bookworm1102> agree [15:41] <lothlorien> It does, however, present enormous challenges to Harry who must destroy him, even if LV has unknowingly weakened himself. Harry won't have it easy. [15:41] <Aislinn> yes, prongs, exactly [15:41] <Dreamteam> he thinks it makes him stronger but his loss of humanity weakens him against other humans [15:41] <Aislinn> it is a pale imitation of the real thing [15:41] <penguin1124> yes [15:41] <Aislinn> no, lothlorien, he won't [15:41] <ProngsPatronus> and that is the story of LV's life in a nutshell [15:41] <ProngsPatronus> a pale imitation of the real thing [15:41] <bubblehead> i have to go. bye all [15:41] <Spectre> making six Horcruxes, he remains 1/64th human or so... [15:41] <penguin1124> yes [15:42] <Dreamteam> bye bh [15:42] <bookworm1102> agreed prongs [15:42] <Spectre> bye bubblehead [15:42] *** bubblehead left #lounge [] [15:42] <Aislinn> In order to gain entrance to the cave, Dumbledore had to give up some of his own blood. What would Tom gain from this act? [15:42] <bookworm1102> bye [15:42] <You_wont_know_who> I wonder if killing a divided soul is as bad as killing an unharmed one [15:42] <Narya> I don't think he has any humanity left, Horcruxes or no [15:42] <Poet> Voldemort's greed (at making the horcruxes for immortality) stands in sharp contract to "sacrifice" and love [15:42] <penguin1124> he wanted to waken the person [15:42] <penguin1124> weaken [15:42] <ProngsPatronus> I see it as a passive warning system [15:42] <bookworm1102> that dumbledore would gradually grow weak [15:42] <penguin1124> who sought the horcrux [15:42] <fawkes28> He would gain pleasure from knowing he caused someone pain [15:42] <ProngsPatronus> crude, as DD says, but effective [15:42] <Narya> It's typical of LV to want a token [15:42] <penguin1124> but a token would be blood? [15:42] <Spectre> Blood of the enemy?.. [15:43] <penguin1124> i mean that is just sick [15:43] <Aislinn> you think that he knew they were there, Prongs? [15:43] <fawkes28> it is a warning to the person - that the worst is yet to come [15:43] <You_wont_know_who> he would know who was there and maybe how to find them [15:43] <penguin1124> maybe [15:43] <ProngsPatronus> I think that, if he returns to the cave, he will know [15:43] <bookworm1102> hey guys its been fun but i gotta go [15:43] <penguin1124> bye [15:43] <Love4Fawkes> bye bookworm [15:43] <Spectre> bye bookworm [15:43] <RudiusHagrid> ok bye [15:43] <lothlorien> I'm afraid to mention this, but all this blood talk makes me think of the septology's occasional references to vampires. [15:43] <ProngsPatronus> glad you could join us, bookworm [15:43] <You_wont_know_who> good one fawkes [15:43] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> horcruxes are like the absolute opposite of love... love doesn't diminish the more you give away... in fact, it grows. Love is selfless and caring and involves other people, while everything Voldemort stands for is selfish, hurtful and he stands alone, doing it. The more love you give away, the stronger you are, but the more of your soul you break apart, the weaker you are. [15:43] <Poet> I also wondered if the door could remember the blood-type of the person and Voldemort could check it later to see what type of person came through [15:43] <RudiusHagrid> im going to go too [15:43] *** bookworm1102 left #lounge [] [15:43] <Aislinn> I don't think the amount of blood shed weakens the giver that much, so it is not literally a weakening that would interefere with going forward [15:43] <You_wont_know_who> bye bookworm [15:43] <Poet> blood-type meaning pure-blood /powerful/etc [15:43] <lothlorien> Excellent Chocolate [15:43] <Narya> I think a return to the cave is likely - because Harry needs answers [15:43] <RudiusHagrid> see you all [15:44] <Dreamteam> bye rudius [15:44] <Love4Fawkes> wow chocolate [15:44] <Aislinn> well said chocolate [15:44] <penguin1124> bye [15:44] *** RudiusHagrid has quit [Bye] [15:44] <Aislinn> bye rudi [15:44] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> thanks smile [15:44] <ProngsPatronus> there is also the premise of the chapeter--that blood=life [15:44] <janieb> Nice, chocolate [15:44] <ProngsPatronus> one has to literally spend life to enter [15:44] <Narya> And that's interesting, PP - because the cave is a death cave [15:44] <Spectre> a symbolical human sacrifice [15:44] <You_wont_know_who> oh Narya it will be interesting [15:44] <penguin1124> that is interesting [15:44] <You_wont_know_who> bye rudius [15:44] <lothlorien> And blood also leads to familial connections, Prongs. [15:45] <ProngsPatronus> yes, it does [15:45] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> nice, lothlorien... voldemort holds a lot of store in his bloodline, and the power it gives him [15:45] <Spectre> would Tom himself have to give blood to check the cave? [15:45] <You_wont_know_who> Horcruxes are the effect of a selfish desire, not love, but well said [15:45] <penguin1124> i don't think so [15:45] <penguin1124> maybe blood, but not his own [15:45] <Poet> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. [15:46] <Aislinn> After they complete their task in the cave, Harry sheds his blood on the same spot Dumbledore did. Therefore, Harry and Dumbledore’s blood became intermingled. What significance does this have for Harry? [15:46] <Love4Fawkes> i think he would have to give his own blood if he wanted to enter again [15:46] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think voldemort is arrogant enough to not check on his horcruxes... but that's just conjecture [15:46] <fawkes28> i love how prongs describes this [15:46] <Love4Fawkes> i agree chocolate [15:46] <penguin1124> yes [15:46] <Narya> It's another factor in the love which Harry has in his skin - because DD loved Harry so, so much [15:46] <janieb> Prongs' point about Harry leaving as DD's equal was awesome [15:46] <fawkes28> that harry and dumbledore share blood now - prongs is so smart [15:47] <Poet> It shows that Harry is nearing the time he'll be alone on the journey - taking DD's place [15:47] <Aislinn> yes it was, janieb [15:47] <penguin1124> i think that with thier blood intermingled, i think that means now that now they are truly connected [15:47] <lothlorien> Could the blood given be a type of signature that LV could trace to see who had been there? [15:47] <futureweasley> Dumbledore already said it was "crude"...I don't think it's really symbolic of anything but LV's respect for blood [15:47] <fawkes28> yes, it does, poet [15:47] * chocolateisnotforbreakfast hugs prongs for realizing this detail [15:47] <Aislinn> I think it might be, lothlorien [15:47] <ProngsPatronus> awww,thanks [15:47] <You_wont_know_who> Harry has taken over at that point [15:47] <Poet> Harry is not equal to Dumbledore, but what he does have is worthy to stand alongside Dumbledore [15:47] <You_wont_know_who> he became a leader and an adult man [15:47] <ProngsPatronus> I think that something deeper is taking place, as well [15:48] <fawkes28> It also is symbolic that Dumbledore is with Harry even though he is beyond the veil - he will always be a part of him [15:48] <penguin1124> yes he really has become an adult [15:48] <Love4Fawkes> i think DD saw Harry as an equal in the end [15:48] <ProngsPatronus> dd has become his father in magic [15:48] <ProngsPatronus> and in love [15:48] <Aislinn> I think it is very symbolic, totally separate of LV's intent, in his crude protection [15:48] <You_wont_know_who> he needed no guidance, he had the power to lead [15:48] <Dreamteam> yes ywkw he became a leader in the DA [15:48] <lothlorien> Oh, Yes Fawkes! [15:48] <janieb> Nice distinction, Poet [15:48] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> the cave symbolized a turning point... when they went in, Dumbledore was the mentor, the teacher, and Harry relied on him... when they left, Harry was the support, the one that Dumbledore relied on [15:48] <Narya> I think Harry is as much DD's equal as it's possible to be at nearly seventeen [15:48] <Narya> and DD knew that very well [15:48] <penguin1124> true, and he is really only 16 there [15:48] <Poet> The cave measures Harry and finds him worthy - reminds me of both the door to the Hallows in the grail quests, and the Egyptians measuring the heart and finding it worthy [15:48] <Aislinn> yes, chocolate, it was a passing of the torch [15:48] <lothlorien> Well said Chocolate. [15:49] <ProngsPatronus> I think that the blood tie between them will be come very important [15:49] <Narya> Harry will grow into his power as he becomes a man [15:49] *** cbm has quit [Bye] [15:49] <ProngsPatronus> because equal menas stalemate [15:49] *** ph63915 left #lounge [] [15:49] <Aislinn> do you see it as a blood tie like the one with Lily, Prongs? [15:49] <fawkes28> it was Harry's turn to take care of DD just as DD took care of him all these years - it is the circle of life [15:49] <Spectre> hm... blood tie between Harry and DD... maybe that's what Jo meant when she said "it gets difficult with Dumbledore"? [15:49] <ProngsPatronus> a good substitute [15:49] <Narya> Equality stymies LV, then [15:49] <Poet> I think the blood opening the door may also indicate the Harry is now worthy or able to open the love room door..... [15:49] <lothlorien> The US cover are would support your point Prongs. [15:49] * chocolateisnotforbreakfast starts singing the lion king [15:49] <penguin1124> ok [15:50] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it's the circle of life, fawkes smile [15:50] <Love4Fawkes> lol chocolatee [15:50] <You_wont_know_who> nicely said chocolate [15:50] <Aislinn> Prongs’ discusses how Harry is not related to Dumbledore by blood, but rather that Harry is “his magical child of the heart”. What impact do these words have for you? [15:50] <ProngsPatronus> which puts subsequent events in a new light [15:50] <fawkes28> this is my favorite line in the chapter smile [15:50] <Narya> Those are very prescient words, and so full of emotion [15:50] <Love4Fawkes> awww, that is so well put prongs! (sorry, i'm not to that chapter yet. I'm a little behind) [15:50] <Poet> He is Dumbledore's hope and his future, just like a parent passes along their knowledge and hope and future to their child. [15:51] <fawkes28> i think Harry is the closest to being his own child - blood doesn't matter [15:51] <janieb> Yes, Narya--and the most soothing words about DD I have heard since my first reading of HBP [15:51] <penguin1124> yeah [15:51] <Aislinn> beautifully put, poet [15:51] <fawkes28> their connection runs so much deeper than blood [15:51] <lothlorien> I like it very much. DD has definitely been a father figure to Harry. Maybe there could be a Gryffindor relationship tie that we don't yet know. [15:51] <penguin1124> and that shows how deep love can flow [15:51] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I loved those words... I thought of them when I next read Order of the Phoenix, and I saw Dumbledore as a completely different man... he wasn't as selfish as I first thought he was by loving Harry [15:52] <Love4Fawkes> that is true fawkes. DD put as much if not more energy into harry as parents put into their children [15:52] <You_wont_know_who> oh such nice words, and very true Prongs [15:52] <fawkes28> i think Harry has fulfiled Dumbledore in more ways than Harry could ever know [15:52] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree, fawkes [15:52] <penguin1124> yeah [15:52] <janieb> This line of thinking is soooo hopeful [15:52] <lothlorien> DD puts such love and faith to Harry in those words.\ [15:52] <Narya> DD saw the future in Harry the night he left Harry on the Dursleys doorstep, and everything Harry learned from DD over teh years was DD's wish that Harry would fulfil what he was meant to do - to ultimately defeat LV, the battle which DD started [15:53] <Aislinn> he does, lothlorien [15:53] <You_wont_know_who> Dumbledore has believed in Harry and in his future, he kind of adopted him [15:53] *** mishale has quit [Bye] [15:53] <Love4Fawkes> I thought of this as I finished Ootp and DD explains to Harry how much he came to care for him and how he began to put Harry's happiness above all else. Just like a true parent [15:53] <ProngsPatronus> that is lovely, Narya [15:53] <penguin1124> yeah he really does care for harry so much [15:53] <Narya> thanks, PP smile [15:53] <ProngsPatronus> yes--DD, giving up the lives of others to insure harry's hapiness? [15:53] <Aislinn> yes, Love4Fawkes, I think Dd knew he would care for this child, but not that he would fall in love with him the way that he did [15:53] <ProngsPatronus> that was a watershed [15:53] <fawkes28> yes, Love4Fawkes - i absolutely love that conversation [15:54] <ProngsPatronus> me, too [15:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> exactly, love4fawkes... even though his plan would be ruined by loving Harry, he couldn't stop himself... his love for Harry runs deeper even than the ideals of peace and safety of the masses, when he tells harry that he didn't care that faceless named died as a result from Dumbledore loving Harry [15:54] <fawkes28> that is when you realized that Dumbledore is a parent figure for him [15:54] <Aislinn> Dumbledore had a choice to protect himself or Harry that night. He chose Harry. By doing so, did Dumbledore’s sacrifice invoke some type of old magic? If so, what does it mean for the 7th book? [15:54] <lothlorien> Oh yes, I have thought so since I read it. [15:54] <Poet> Hmm. Just like Lily, I think Dumbledore had a choice. So I think its possible. [15:55] <penguin1124> oh, so maybe, even if his mother's love does run out at the age of 17, he will have dumbledore's love too [15:55] <Narya> Definitely an invocation of the old magic [15:55] <You_wont_know_who> I've always wondered why Harry never visited Dumbledore out of school [15:55] <Dreamteam> as he loved Harry and Harry now shares his blood maybe its similar to Lily's protection [15:55] <Aislinn> so, a kind of full circle back to the sacrifice that opened the story [15:55] <penguin1124> yeah [15:55] <Love4Fawkes> Oh, that's a great thought. I've given this some thought, but I'm really unsure what role it will play in DH [15:55] <lothlorien> I think what it means for the 7th book depends a great deal on the Snape storyline. [15:55] <fawkes28> Yes, i believe there was some old magic created that night - dumbledore could have saved himself but he didn't [15:55] <janieb> At the moment, I believe that the compassion DD showed Draco was Harry's most important lesson on the LIghtening Struck Tower [15:55] <penguin1124> yeah [15:55] <Narya> DD knew full well what he was doing - and there was a reason why he immobilised Harry so that Harry could see it all [15:56] <ProngsPatronus> yes--and a hint that he may have to go to his enemies to complete the job [15:56] <Narya> Harry was watching real love in action in what DD did - so important [15:56] <fawkes28> i agree, janieb [15:56] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think there might have been some magic... how souls are usually damaged when you murder... maybe if you kill someone when you don't want to and the other person asks for it, keeps a soul in tact [15:56] <fawkes28> nicely put, narya [15:56] <Love4Fawkes> interesting chocolate [15:56] <fawkes28> it was dumbledore's last lesson [15:56] <penguin1124> maybe [15:56] <Narya> That's a good point, chocolate [15:56] <Poet> Harry has special gifts that will help him vanquish Voldemort. Dumbledore's sacrifice I think will make it easier (in a way) for Harry to step up and finish Voldemort whielhe is still young and Voldie still underestimates him [15:56] <Spectre> hm, sounds like euthanasia, in a way [15:57] <ProngsPatronus> I was struck by the parallels [15:57] <ProngsPatronus> between DD and lily [15:57] <penguin1124> it is amazing [15:57] <ProngsPatronus> and the sequence of events [15:57] <Love4Fawkes> i think this was JKR's intention Poet. the hero must continue alone [15:57] <Narya> So was I - because both made the ultimate sacrifice for one they loved [15:57] <Aislinn> yes, prongs, I thought it was quite striking [15:57] <penguin1124> well [15:57] <lothlorien> Not alone, I don't think. [15:58] <fawkes28> it makes us love the series that much more - by being able to accept that dumbledore has died [15:58] <fawkes28> even though it is hard to do [15:58] <penguin1124> in the first book, the challenges that led up to harry facing quirrel, do u think that will foreshadow harry's final battle, harry being alone when he faces him? [15:58] <Poet> Alone physically, but not alone in spirit [15:58] <Love4Fawkes> i had to read it twice before i accepted it! [15:58] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think that's right on, penguin! [15:58] <Aislinn> right, poet [15:58] <ProngsPatronus> never alone in spirit [15:58] <lothlorien> Yes, Poet. [15:58] <penguin1124> thanks smile [15:58] <Aislinn> After Draco takes Dumbledore’s wand, Dumbledore says, “It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now.” Prongs Patronus then questions, “Why Dumbledore’s mercy? To whom did it matter?” [15:58] <Narya> Harry is never really alone but he does have to face LV alone because that is the culmination of his journey [15:59] <fawkes28> because i think dumbledore could have done something else but he wanted to give draco a chance [15:59] <Narya> DD's mercy mattered to Draco, but it also mattered to Harry - because Harry had to see it to learn from it [15:59] <Poet> Draco's soul was at stake. Even in Dumbledore's state, I think he could have done something to stop Draco - something terrible I'm sure that he didn't want to do. [15:59] <ProngsPatronus> I think it is all about harry [15:59] <Dreamteam> it matters to Draco and Harry [15:59] <Spectre> Dumbledore chose not to defend himself [15:59] <lothlorien> Because DD is still in ultimate control of these events. [15:59] <penguin1124> i think if dd wanted to , he could have stopped drace, but only for the first few minutes [15:59] <Aislinn> yes, narya, that was the last, and very important lesson, that DD taught Harry [15:59] <ProngsPatronus> draco was a lesson for harry [15:59] <penguin1124> after that he was hopeless [16:00] <Poet> Yes, and I think he had a lessons to teach both Harry and Draco about why the good side is GOOD [16:00] <fawkes28> dumbledore especially put it in draco's hands and he hesitated too long [16:00] <Narya> Harry had to learn that lesson - because he needs it for what he has to do [16:00] <penguin1124> true [16:00] <Aislinn> compassion and mercy are going to be critical choices for Harry [16:00] *** You_wont_know_who has quit [Bye] [16:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Dumbledore could have had Draco killed, or have gotten him in trouble with Voldemort... Dumbledore had a flawless case against Draco, and instead of punishing him, and even instead of NOT punishing him, he offers him safety, which is completely undeserved [16:00] <Aislinn> He needed to see them in action, to understand their power [16:00] <ProngsPatronus> ultimately, DD's mercy will mean that Harry will be able to break the stalemate [16:00] <fawkes28> perhaps he wanted the two to be able to put aside their differences by harry watching [16:00] <lothlorien> Perhaps JKR wants us to see the same hope for redemption in Draco that DD must see. [16:00] <Narya> And it must be Harry who breaks that stalemate, PP [16:00] <Poet> Dumbledore showed both of them, that even when things seem hopeless, you still have a choice to show compassion and love to your enemies [16:01] <Love4Fawkes> i agree poet [16:01] <penguin1124> yes [16:01] <ProngsPatronus> but I believe that DD gave him the means [16:01] <Love4Fawkes> a lesson on campassion and love for Harry and draco both [16:01] *** You_wont_know_who has joined #lounge [16:01] <lothlorien> Hi, You! [16:01] <ProngsPatronus> yes, it was [16:01] <fawkes28> dumbledore usually doesn't take things into his own hands - he gives people choices [16:01] <Narya> Harry already had the means, but he doesn't realise that he has that power till he is in a similar situation [16:01] <Aislinn> yes, fawkes [16:01] <penguin1124> which is good This post has been edited by Poet: Jun 3 2007, 06:25 PM |
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Jun 3 2007, 06:24 PM
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Total Eclipse of the Elf Posts: 2,102 Joined: 4:47pm July 3, 2005 Location: Kansas City |
[16:02] <Aislinn> that was central to his philosophy
[16:02] <Narya> DD teaches him to trust his instinct [16:02] <ProngsPatronus> yes, fawkes--which is why this scene is so curious [16:02] <You_wont_know_who> Harry will have to show mercy at one point or the other, maybe for LV maybe for Snape [16:02] <ProngsPatronus> choice is taken away from harry--just as it was in the beginning of the book [16:02] *** fawkes28 has quit [Bye] [16:02] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [16:02] <Poet> Dumbledore's love allowed Draco, I think, to not do the deed. Draco didn't seem to want to do it. His mercy helped Draco make the right choice -- it softened Draco's heart. [16:02] <Aislinn> it was, prongs, and that was curious [16:03] <lothlorien> Harry had to view the scene almost like he viewed the scenes in the pensieve, but unlike those times, this scene is for his protection as well as his instruction. [16:03] <You_wont_know_who> right Poet [16:03] <Narya> DD only removed Harry's choice because it was more important to see what happened next [16:03] <penguin1124> yes [16:03] <You_wont_know_who> maybe Harry's mercy will soften Peter's ugly heart [16:03] <ProngsPatronus> well, it was that which struck me first [16:03] <lothlorien> Yes, Poet! [16:03] <fawkes28> yes, narya - he knew harry would have wanted to protect dumbledore [16:03] <Aislinn> I'd agree with that, lothlorien [16:03] <Poet> I love the idea of it being like a pensieve scene to Harry [16:03] <Spectre> To do an AK, one should hate the victim... and Draco just couldn't hate Dumbledore in that scene [16:03] <ProngsPatronus> DD never does stuff like that [16:03] <fawkes28> harry is impulsive - he would have reacted based on the feelings in his heart [16:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> agreed, fawkes - dumbledore knew, i think [16:04] <Aislinn> it is unusual for him to take away a person's choice like that, prongs [16:04] <penguin1124> do u think that harry will be able to do an unforgiveable curse by the end of the book? [16:04] <lothlorien> So true, Fawkes [16:04] <Love4Fawkes> yes fawkes, and DD needed Harry to watch, learn, and stay out of the way [16:04] <Narya> Harry is impulsive, but he also knows when to hold back [16:04] <Aislinn> especially since he had already exacted a promise from harry that he would follow commands [16:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think he'll be able to, but he'll be too noble to use those powers [16:04] <penguin1124> yeah [16:04] <Poet> Yes, this was a command in a way from DD. [16:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> just like dumbledore [16:04] <You_wont_know_who> Harry would attack Draco for sure [16:04] <ProngsPatronus> it is a contrast to the beginning of the book, too--when harry is spying on draco [16:04] <lothlorien> Maybe he won't have to. Maybe LV does something to bring about his own destruction unknowingly. [16:04] <Spectre> and Snape [16:05] <You_wont_know_who> for some reasons Draco had to go unharmed [16:05] <Narya> Harry only attacks when he comes under attack [16:05] <Aislinn> Harry is Dumbledore’s heir in duty, as Prong describes, he will receive the Pensieve and therefore, all of the memories that Dumbledore worked so hard to get. What memories should we expect to see in the Pensieve? [16:05] <penguin1124> memories of his parent's [16:05] <Spectre> Grindelwald [16:05] <Narya> We might see why DD trusted Snape [16:05] <fawkes28> why dumbledore trusts snape [16:05] <fawkes28> lol [16:05] <penguin1124> yeah [16:05] <Love4Fawkes> that would be a great one to see spectre [16:05] <Narya> biggrin [16:05] <You_wont_know_who> memories of DD's childhood [16:05] <penguin1124> do u think that dd killed grindelwald? [16:05] <Aislinn> why would he reveal that in the pensieve when he didn't reveal it in life? [16:05] <ProngsPatronus> I thik all of those, plus the memories DD already showed Harry [16:06] <fawkes28> yes, spectre - grindelwald will be important [16:06] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i hope so ywkw! [16:06] <lothlorien> Possibly some revelation re: Petunia, too. [16:06] <Aislinn> penguin, let's stick to the questions for the topic, please [16:06] <penguin1124> sure sry [16:06] <Narya> DD didn't' kill Grindelwald [16:06] <Love4Fawkes> i don't think we will learn why dd trusted snape from the pensive, but some other way [16:06] <Spectre> When Harry sees how Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald, maybe he'd know the way to defeat Voldemort without killing him? [16:06] <penguin1124> thats true [16:06] *** JaneMarple9 has quit [Bye] [16:06] <Narya> I think we might also see more of DD's interactions with LV both at school and later [16:07] <penguin1124> yeah [16:07] <penguin1124> but i think that dd might have shown him all of the important ones [16:07] <fawkes28> maybe some of dumbledore's interaction with lily and james [16:07] <Spectre> how Dumbledore got James' invisibility cloak? [16:07] <Love4Fawkes> I'd like to see how DD found the ring and destroyed the soul in it [16:07] <Narya> Agree, Fawkes [16:07] <ProngsPatronus> perhaps he will learn more of his mother in those memories [16:07] <fawkes28> i would too, Love4Fawkes [16:08] <penguin1124> oh yeah, and maybe harry will find out how to destroy all of the horcruxes [16:08] *** Dreamteam left #lounge [] [16:08] <ProngsPatronus> that is a good point, L4F [16:08] <fawkes28> also, about dumbledore's family [16:08] <You_wont_know_who> Snape will have the opportunity to tell his tale in person, but DD's childhood can be told only by the Pensieve [16:08] *** fenixfelicis has joined #lounge [16:08] <Aislinn> “Dumbledore has whetted his dagger; from beyond the Veil Dumbledore throws The Boy Who Loves at the shriveled heart and soul of the Dark Lord.” What do you think of this conclusion from Prongs’ chapter? [16:08] <ProngsPatronus> hey, fenix [16:08] <fenixfelicis> hi prongs! good to see ya again! [16:08] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha loved that line [16:08] <fawkes28> yes, it was a great way to end it [16:09] <penguin1124> it was a really good line [16:09] <janieb> Great metaphor! [16:09] <Narya> I think it encapsulates very neatly what DD tried to do for Harry to ensure that he had what he needed to defeat LV. Harry knows more than he realises. He just needs to use all taht knowledge [16:09] <fawkes28> exactly, narya [16:09] <Aislinn> yes, narya [16:09] <fawkes28> the torch has been passed and Harry is ready [16:09] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> bye guys! great chapter prongs! [16:09] <You_wont_know_who> an appropriate ending indeed [16:10] <Love4Fawkes> i hope Harry is ready! [16:10] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has quit [Bye] [16:10] <ProngsPatronus> bye, chocolate [16:10] <Aislinn> it will be fascinating to see how he realizes this [16:10] <Narya> It will be [16:10] <Aislinn> In the comments, first incantation asks, “When you refer to Merope sealing Tom's fate by wishing him not to have her fate, did this mean that she sealed his inability to love?” [16:10] <ProngsPatronus> when I wrote that, I became so excited to see the last book [16:10] <You_wont_know_who> just Harry is something more than a dagger, he is more like an intelligent missile [16:10] <ProngsPatronus> I could hardly bear the wait [16:10] <You_wont_know_who> bye chocolate [16:11] <Narya> I don't think Merope sealed anything for Tom - Tom himself chose not to love [16:11] <Aislinn> yes, I think it was his choice [16:11] <Spectre> Harry a MIRV, lol smile [16:11] <Love4Fawkes> i also think it was purely tom's choice [16:11] <fawkes28> i think her dying was hindered his ability to love - but he still had a choice [16:11] <futureweasley> MIRV? [16:11] <penguin1124> yeah i mean harry's parents died, and he still loves [16:12] <Narya> Exactly, penguin [16:12] <Spectre> Merope loved Tom enough to give him birth... she could have died earlier [16:12] <You_wont_know_who> right Narya, the free choices are the most important [16:12] <ProngsPatronus> and she found a safe place for him, too [16:12] <ProngsPatronus> as safe as she could manage [16:12] <Narya> She did what Lily did in a way ... she did her best with what she had [16:13] <lothlorien> I don't think Merope's intentions were for Tom to turn out like this. She seemed sweet, but sad and desperate. I think she loved Tom, but she didn't love herself or her life, and she wasn't strong enough to live for Tom's sake. This sealed Tom's hatred because he could not respect what he viewed as a weakness in his mother.\ [16:13] <You_wont_know_who> he could have found love if he had looked for it [16:13] <fenixfelicis> i guess merope made tom scared of love...look at what her love for tom senior did. [16:13] <penguin1124> yeah, i mean he never tried to be nice to anyone at the orphanige [16:13] <Narya> LV could also have found love if he had given it, YWKW [16:13] <Love4Fawkes> i use to supervise visits between children in the state's care and their parents. there were times when I saw children shut down. it wasn't necessarily their choice to feel this way, but their circumstances made it too difficult for them to feel love [16:14] <Spectre> the orphanage seemed to be a pretty unloving place by itself [16:14] <Aislinn> I agree with both of you, lothlorien and Love4Fawkes [16:14] <Aislinn> yet there were many children there, spectre, who did not turn into sociopaths [16:14] <Narya> I don't agree that the orphanage was unloving - the staff clearly cared for the children [16:14] <Aislinn> and we have many examples of children being raised in grim circumstances in the books, who make better choices [16:15] <ProngsPatronus> yes--they were clean, fed, clothed [16:15] <lothlorien> Thanks, Aislinn, and I also think some of this is about choice. Harry grew up without love, but chose to reach out for it and could recognize it when he saw it. [16:15] <penguin1124> my parents are psychoanylists and they treat many kids who have had many traumatic experiences to lead them to doign horrible things [16:15] <penguin1124> but having ur mom die before u even knew her is different [16:15] <You_wont_know_who> right, he might have given it but he chose to take ...lives of the others [16:15] <penguin1124> i don't think it is classified as a traumatic experience [16:15] <Love4Fawkes> in the end it was certainly LV's choices. he had support at hogwarts that could have turned his life around, but he chose a different pat [16:15] <Love4Fawkes> *path [16:15] <Narya> Good point, lothlorien [16:15] <penguin1124> yes [16:16] <You_wont_know_who> the orphanage couldn't have been an obstacle, it wouldn't have been an obstacle for Harry I am sure [16:16] <lothlorien> I love your point Love4. [16:16] <Aislinn> This has been a fabulous chat, so much so that we drifted over the time limit. thanks to everyone for your wonderful contributions! [16:16] <Narya> LV chose his path when he hung a defenceless animal from the rafters [16:16] <janieb> What an excellent chat, everyone!! I loved Prongs' essay--so many new things to think about!! And Fawkes28--your Scribbulus submission rocked! You summed it up so well--just like this chat! Take care, Everyone [16:16] <penguin1124> thank you [16:16] <ProngsPatronus> this was fabu [16:16] <penguin1124> that was really fun [16:16] <Poet> Yes, please joing us again on Wednesday for a discussion about the names of spells. [16:17] <Spectre> bye all smile A good chat, even though I missed most of it smile [16:17] <fawkes28> woo hoo for prongs' chapter smile [16:17] <ProngsPatronus> (((hugs))) [16:17] <penguin1124> [16:17] <Aislinn> yes, thank you to Prongs for her insightful and beautifully written chapter! [16:17] <fawkes28> thanks, janieb [16:17] <Narya> Thanks everyone - and thanks to PP for a superb chapter [16:17] <Spectre> heh... can't be there at Wednesday, I'm afraid sad [16:17] <penguin1124> thanks everyone [16:17] <fenixfelicis> thanks [16:17] <fawkes28> Thanks for coming smile [16:17] <lothlorien> I loved the chat and the essay. Thanks all! [16:17] <You_wont_know_who> bye all!! [16:17] *** Narya has quit [Bye] [16:17] <ProngsPatronus> veryone for coming! [16:17] <Aislinn> bye everyone [16:17] <Love4Fawkes> i love our chats smile I hope to see everyone on Wednesday!! [16:17] *** futureweasley left #lounge [] [16:17] <You_wont_know_who> great chat and great topic Prongs [16:17] <Aislinn> see you all soon, hopefully smile [16:18] <penguin1124> [16:18] *** Love4Fawkes has quit [Bye] [16:18] <lothlorien> Bye, all. [16:18] <Poet> Aislinn's post has the upcoming schedule penguin: http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?showt...=36445&st=0 [16:18] <Aislinn> bye lothlorien [16:18] *** fenixfelicis left #lounge [] [16:18] *** lothlorien left #lounge [] [16:18] *** penguin1124 left #lounge [] [16:18] <ProngsPatronus> bye, everyone! [16:18] *** You_wont_know_who left #lounge [] [16:18] *** Spectre has quit [Bye] [16:18] *** janieb has quit [Bye] |
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