The Prophecy, what do you think it means? |
 Sep 5 2009, 01:48 PM
Post
#1
|
|
Cauldron Bottom Measurer  Posts: 118 Joined: 10:30pm July 14, 2007 Location: The Mists  |
QUOTE(The Alchemyst) The two that are one, the one that is all. There will come a time when the Book is taken And the Queen's man is allied with the Crow Then the Elder will step out of the Shadows And the immortal must train the mortal. The two that are one must become the one that is all. This prophecy is the basis for all the events that take place in the series. Through the first novels of the planned two-part trilogies, readers have pondered exactly what the whole thing means. Until the events of the Sorceress, it was speculated that the "twin" or "two that are one" spoke of Josh and Sophie Newman; yet after Gilgamesh's revelation, many are left wondering who exactly the "twins are. Who do you think the "twins of legend" are? Do you think that the prophecy has a double meaning? We know from the books that the Hook-handed man told Nicholas that He is the "immortal must train the mortal", so it is assumed that he will be the one to teach Earth magic to the Newman twins. Yet as many elders and immortals have said, Abraham was known as kind of a flake. From what we've read so far, do you think Nicholas will live to teach the twin? What is Dee's role in the future now that he's been outcast from his Dark Elder masters? He has Excalibur and Clarent...if they are indeed the two that are one as Gilgamesh says, how will he effect what is to come? Will Josh and Sophie always remain united, even in the face of her slowly disappearing mind, or Josh's burgeoning thirst for power? What part does Mars Altor play in their staying united against the Dark Elders? Personally, I think the prophecy had a double meaning. I think it refers to the swords and the Newmans...which one will protect and which one will destroy is still up for debate. What do you think? This post has been edited by LadyCake: Sep 5 2009, 01:58 PM -------------------- |
 |
 
 
|
|
Sep 6 2009, 11:22 AM
Post
#2
|
|
Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 22 Joined: 5:19pm February 6, 2009 Location: Locked in a padded room with a white jacket on reading  |
Well I thought at the end of the Sorcerress the twins of ledgend are both the newmans and the swords I think that Sophie is ment to weild excalliber and Josh is ment to weild clarent.
-------------------- Luna Lovegood Rocks!
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 7 2009, 10:17 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 6 Joined: 12:57pm January 10, 2009 |
But at the end of the Sorceress the swords merge to become one does this mean that the two other swords are also one?
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 8 2009, 03:42 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 118 Joined: 10:30pm July 14, 2007 Location: The Mists |
QUOTE(chey291996 @ Sep 7 2009, 10:17 AM)  But at the end of the Sorceress the swords merge to become one does this mean that the two other swords are also one? See I wondered that too. Right now Dee has all four swords and we haven't really heard in detail about the other two swords. I'm wondering if maybe in the second trilogy Nicholas and the gang will somehow at least get the other two swords away from Dee. Also...once the swords, is there a way to take them apart? Also what powers do the other two swords have, and how would they effect the merge excalibur/clarent sword? This post has been edited by LadyCake: Sep 8 2009, 03:46 PM -------------------- |
|
|
|
|
Sep 11 2009, 10:08 AM
Post
#5
|
|
DDD's Protege  Posts: 745 Joined: 10:49am March 13, 2009 Location: On the Horizon |
I think that the prophesy has (at least) a double meaning of the swords and the twins. Re: the twins, I find this part of the prophesy interesting: And the immortal must train the mortal. This is widely taken to mean that Flamel (the immortal) will train the twins (the mortal). I know I'm being nitpicky here, but I notice that the words "the mortal" are meant to imply a plural: the twins. Perhaps the part that says "the immortal" is intended to imply a plural also, as in The immortal beings in this world will train the mortal twins, which seems to be the case so far as the twins are recieving their training from a variety of people. Or, why stop there: wouldn't it be cool if another set of prophesied twins appear in the story? The two (sets of twins) that are one? I do think this is unlikely, though, given how Nicholas and Perenelle discuss how they finally have the twins of legend. If a second set came into play, it would probably be a big surprise to them.
Re: the swords.... I am still trying to figure out who knew/knows about the ability of the twin swords to merge (aside from Gilgamesh, if we take what he says at face value). At first I thought that Dee knew, since once he held Clarent in his hand, the first thing he did was to reach for Excalibur. But that simply could have been to compare them. The text does say that he crossed the blades of the swords, but when they snapped together, he tried to pull them apart. Did he intend to unite them, but at the last minute changed his mind? Or did he have no idea what they would do? And why could Dee hold both swords like this? Earlier, when Josh grabbed Excalibur while holding Clarent, he felt great pain and the hand holding Clarent started to bleed. Was Dee somehow prophesied to unite the swords? I also find this part interesting: QUOTE "Excalibur and Clarent in the same place," Cernunnos's buzzing voice murmured in Dee's skull. "These are indeed momentous times. Do you know when last these two swords were united?" Since Cernunnos is an Archon, the eldest Elder-type we've encountered, and he asks about the last time the swords were united, I'm wondering if he was asking about the type of "united" swords that we see at the end of the book. Perhaps as an ancient, he is old enough to have seen this before. If so, it does not seem that Dee is aware of this (though I could be wrong).Dee was about to tell him that both swords had been in Paris the previous day but decided not to say anything to irritate the creature........."I believe it was here, in England," Dee said. "When Arthur fought his nephew Mordred on Salisbury Plain. Mordred used Clarent to kill Arthur," he added. (The Sorceress, p. 270) Another thought: when Josh gets a whiff of Dee's thoughts during their battle at the car yard, he discovers that Dee had been thinking of killing Cernunnos. Josh's thoughts right after this were that Dee would be unable to do this without Clarent (and Excalibur, which Dee already held). I wonder if this was just Josh's reasoning based upon Dee's plan, or if he had a bit of Mars' knowledge that told him that both swords would need to be used together to kill an Archon (or an Elder)? What if the two swords together are sort of an "Elder sword": the unbeatable sword against an Elder? Since Dee is a rogue agent now with (perhaps) the ultimate weapon, how will he use it? We know that Dee is nothing if not self-serving. Will he seek revenge against those who he perceives have wronged him? Will he still strive to bring the Elders out of the Shadowrealms to take over the Earth? Or will he just use the weapon to defend himself as he runs for his life? --------------------  Join us in Jo's Book Nook to discuss The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge and Skellig by David Almond ........... "Only love...can leave such a mark / But only love...can heal such a scar" -U2 |
|
|
|
|
Sep 15 2009, 09:04 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 118 Joined: 10:30pm July 14, 2007 Location: The Mists |
All good questions...
Dee is definitely the wild card in the story now. I honestly don't know what he's going to do. He has the deal he made with Mars Altor...is he going to honor it? I think more than anything he crave knowledge and power. If he knew a way to absorb the energy that his victims leave, he would kill every Elder and Archon he could find towards that end. I am really interested in the other two of the four swords of legend for this reason. If one of those swords has the power to transfer abilities, knowledge, etc. from his victims to Dee, I think we are in for some crazy and terrifying things from the master magician. This post has been edited by LadyCake: Sep 15 2009, 09:05 AM -------------------- |
|
|
|
|
Sep 20 2009, 10:15 PM
Post
#7
|
|
Exclusive distributor of The Dungbomb Protection Kit Posts: 2,642 Joined: 10:52pm March 5, 2007  |
QUOTE(paint it Black @ Sep 11 2009, 09:08 AM) I also find this part interesting: QUOTE "Excalibur and Clarent in the same place," Cernunnos's buzzing voice murmured in Dee's skull. "These are indeed momentous times. Do you know when last these two swords were united?" Since Cernunnos is an Archon, the eldest Elder-type we've encountered, and he asks about the last time the swords were united, I'm wondering if he was asking about the type of "united" swords that we see at the end of the book. Perhaps as an ancient, he is old enough to have seen this before. If so, it does not seem that Dee is aware of this (though I could be wrong).Dee was about to tell him that both swords had been in Paris the previous day but decided not to say anything to irritate the creature........."I believe it was here, in England," Dee said. "When Arthur fought his nephew Mordred on Salisbury Plain. Mordred used Clarent to kill Arthur," he added. (The Sorceress, p. 270) What a great catch! I bet you are right, that the Archon is talking about the swords being united into one sword. Didn't the Archon claim that he killed both Arthur and Mordred? Perhaps he did it while the swords were united. QUOTE Another thought: when Josh gets a whiff of Dee's thoughts during their battle at the car yard, he discovers that Dee had been thinking of killing Cernunnos. Josh's thoughts right after this were that Dee would be unable to do this without Clarent (and Excalibur, which Dee already held). I wonder if this was just Josh's reasoning based upon Dee's plan, or if he had a bit of Mars' knowledge that told him that both swords would need to be used together to kill an Archon (or an Elder)? What if the two swords together are sort of an "Elder sword": the unbeatable sword against an Elder? Since Dee is a rogue agent now with (perhaps) the ultimate weapon, how will he use it? We know that Dee is nothing if not self-serving. Will he seek revenge against those who he perceives have wronged him? Will he still strive to bring the Elders out of the Shadowrealms to take over the Earth? Or will he just use the weapon to defend himself as he runs for his life? What if the Elder sword shows loyalty to it's owner, and it's loyalty will switch if the owner is defeated in battle...wait...wrong story, that would be an Elder wand  . Seriously, great questions, though. It makes you wonder why Dee is so anxious to bring back the Elders when he knows they would do away with him in a heartbeat at the moment.Back to the prophecy. If the Queen's man is allied with the Crow when the Elders step out of the shadows, would that mean that Dee will switch sides because now the Crow goddess has seemingly changed loyalties? Mmmm, probably not. The other thing, I may be dense, but I don't see anywhere in the prophecy where it says the twins will fight each other, one on the side of the Elders and one against. All of the characters interpret it this way, but I read 'the two that are one must become the one that is all' to mean that whichever side the twins both end up on will be the side that is victorious. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 22 2009, 10:27 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
DDD's Protege Posts: 745 Joined: 10:49am March 13, 2009 Location: On the Horizon |
QUOTE(Pyxis @ Sep 20 2009, 11:15 PM) ...Back to the prophecy. If the Queen's man is allied with the Crow when the Elders step out of the shadows, would that mean that Dee will switch sides because now the Crow goddess has seemingly changed loyalties? Mmmm, probably not. I'm not sure how exact we are supposed to be when looking at the text of the Prophesy, but it does say, "There will come a time when the Book is taken And the Queen's man is allied with the Crow Then the Elder will step out of the Shadows And the immortal must train the mortal." ....which could read that the Queen's man has to be allied with the Crow before the Elders would be able to step out of the Shadowrealms. And at the moment, the Queen's man is not allied with the Crow. So maybe he will switch sides (temporarily, perhaps?) if needed in order to fulfill the prophesy. QUOTE(Pyxis @ Sep 20 2009, 11:15 PM) .....It makes you wonder why Dee is so anxious to bring back the Elders when he knows they would do away with him in a heartbeat at the moment. Maybe he won't give a care about releasing the Elders, now that he has this kick-ass sword. It has seemed pretty important to him though. Another thing about Dee and Clarent: at the end of The Sorceress, it says that Dee had been searching for Clarent for 500 years. It has been a few weeks since I finished the books, but I don't remember this great desire for Clarent being mentioned before (and Dee is all about what Dee wants). Has anyone else seen it? QUOTE(Pyxis @ Sep 20 2009, 11:15 PM) The other thing, I may be dense, but I don't see anywhere in the prophecy where it says the twins will fight each other, one on the side of the Elders and one against. All of the characters interpret it this way, but I read 'the two that are one must become the one that is all' to mean that whichever side the twins both end up on will be the side that is victorious. From The Alchemyst, page 199 QUOTE "The Codex prophesies that the two that are one will come either to save or destroy the world." "What do you mean, either save or destroy?" Josh demanded. "It's got to be one or the other, right?" "The word used in the Codex is similar to an ancient Babylonian symbol that can mean either thing," Flamel explained. "Actually, I've always suspected that it means that one of you has the potential to save the world, while the other has the power to destroy it." So it looks like this is Nicholas' interpretation of it, but we can't know for sure what it really means. -------------------- Join us in Jo's Book Nook to discuss The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge and Skellig by David Almond ........... "Only love...can leave such a mark / But only love...can heal such a scar" -U2 |
|
|
|
|
Sep 22 2009, 10:31 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Exclusive distributor of The Dungbomb Protection Kit Posts: 2,642 Joined: 10:52pm March 5, 2007 |
QUOTE(paint it Black @ Sep 22 2009, 09:27 AM) QUOTE(Pyxis @ Sep 20 2009, 11:15 PM) ...Back to the prophecy. If the Queen's man is allied with the Crow when the Elders step out of the shadows, would that mean that Dee will switch sides because now the Crow goddess has seemingly changed loyalties? Mmmm, probably not. I'm not sure how exact we are supposed to be when looking at the text of the Prophesy, but it does say, "There will come a time when the Book is taken And the Queen's man is allied with the Crow Then the Elder will step out of the Shadows And the immortal must train the mortal." ....which could read that the Queen's man has to be allied with the Crow before the Elders would be able to step out of the Shadowrealms. And at the moment, the Queen's man is not allied with the Crow. So maybe he will switch sides (temporarily, perhaps?) if needed in order to fulfill the prophesy. Yeah, so I am missing my predict-Harry-Potter fixes, so now I have to get it elsewhere! I think it would be fun to see Dee come around, but that is a topic for another thread...QUOTE Maybe he won't give a care about releasing the Elders, now that he has this kick-ass sword.  QUOTE QUOTE(Pyxis @ Sep 20 2009, 11:15 PM) The other thing, I may be dense, but I don't see anywhere in the prophecy where it says the twins will fight each other, one on the side of the Elders and one against. All of the characters interpret it this way, but I read 'the two that are one must become the one that is all' to mean that whichever side the twins both end up on will be the side that is victorious. From The Alchemyst, page 199 QUOTE "The Codex prophesies that the two that are one will come either to save or destroy the world." "What do you mean, either save or destroy?" Josh demanded. "It's got to be one or the other, right?" "The word used in the Codex is similar to an ancient Babylonian symbol that can mean either thing," Flamel explained. "Actually, I've always suspected that it means that one of you has the potential to save the world, while the other has the power to destroy it." So it looks like this is Nicholas' interpretation of it, but we can't know for sure what it really means. I think that is what has been bugging me about the prophecy, it's Nicholas' interpretation that the twins may end up fighting each other. All other indications seem to show that they will work together...the joining of Clarent and Excaliber, and the way they join their powers on two occasions. |
|
|
|
|
Oct 2 2009, 04:57 PM
Post
#10
|
|
|
DDD's Protege Posts: 745 Joined: 10:49am March 13, 2009 Location: On the Horizon |
I am puzzled by some things about the sword/s, so I thought I'd throw them out there and see if anyone has any ideas.
 The first is, on page 482 of The Sorceress, where it says that Dee had been searching for Clarent for 500 years. "It was a quest that had taken him all over the world and into the Shadowrealms......And he had finally found it almost where it started. One of the first places he'd looked for the blade was under the Altar stone at Stonehenge..." Why then in The Magician, when Dee convinces Josh to accompany him after encountering Nidhogg and the Disir, does he just leave Clarent in the street? Josh tells him that he's left it and needs to retrieve it, but Dee says, "Trust me, you don't want to return for it," (p. 340) and drives away. Why wouldn't he throw a bit more fire at the Disir in order to help Josh retrieve it so that he could get his hands on it right then and there?Here's another: At the end of The Sorceress, Dee lies on his back and brings Clarent and Excalibur near each other. They are inexplicably drawn to each other, and then they unite into one sword. Yet when Josh touched Excalibur's hilt with Clarent's blade at the car yard in The Magician, nothing like this happened. We even hear that Mars used to wear both swords at once, and there was no mention of them uniting then. Another thing: When Josh grabbed Excalibur while holding Clarent after the battle with Dee at the car yard, he felt great pain and the hand holding Clarent started to bleed. What was that about? Why can Dee and Mars hold both swords but not Josh? Curiously, when Dee retrieves Excalibur from the moat at the car yard in The Sorceress, he lies on his back and holds the sword to his chest. Later, he does the same thing with Clarent when he takes it from the grass at the end of the book (after Josh has thrown it at him); he lies on his back and holds Clarent on his chest. (In both cases, he's also described as being in mud.) What's going on there? Is each sword somehow identifying Dee in this way? Does this need to happen before the swords can unite? Are the swords perhaps seeking out Dee? Here's another interesting parallel: On pages 336-7 of The Magician, Josh's arm is wounded by the Disir; "The next swipe struck his bare arm between the shoulder and elbow. Clarent managed to nudge the sword at the last instant, so it was only the flat of the blade, rather than the razor-sharp edge, that hit him. Instantly, his entire arm went numb from shoulder to fingertips and he felt a sudden wash of nausea from the pain, the fear and the sudden realization that he was going to die. Clarent fell from his grasp and clattered to the ground." On page 481 of The Sorceress, Dee suffers a similar injury after Josh throws Clarent at him: "The Magician sat up slowly, cradling his right arm. It felt numb from fingertip to shoulder, where it had taken the full force of the blow from Clarent. He thought it might be broken." Not sure if there is any significance there... Any thoughts? 
-------------------- Join us in Jo's Book Nook to discuss The Little White Horse by Elizabeth Goudge and Skellig by David Almond ........... "Only love...can leave such a mark / But only love...can heal such a scar" -U2 |
|
|
|
