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The Prophecy, what do you think it means?
LadyCake
post Sep 5 2009, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE(The Alchemyst)
The two that are one, the one that is all.
There will come a time when the Book is taken
And the Queen's man is allied with the Crow
Then the Elder will step out of the Shadows
And the immortal must train the mortal.
The two that are one must become the one that is all.


This prophecy is the basis for all the events that take place in the series. Through the first novels of the planned two-part trilogies, readers have pondered exactly what the whole thing means. Until the events of the Sorceress, it was speculated that the "twin" or "two that are one" spoke of Josh and Sophie Newman; yet after Gilgamesh's revelation, many are left wondering who exactly the "twins are.

Who do you think the "twins of legend" are?

Do you think that the prophecy has a double meaning?


We know from the books that the Hook-handed man told Nicholas that He is the "immortal must train the mortal", so it is assumed that he will be the one to teach Earth magic to the Newman twins. Yet as many elders and immortals have said, Abraham was known as kind of a flake.

From what we've read so far, do you think Nicholas will live to teach the twin?

What is Dee's role in the future now that he's been outcast from his Dark Elder masters? He has Excalibur and Clarent...if they are indeed the two that are one as Gilgamesh says, how will he effect what is to come?

Will Josh and Sophie always remain united, even in the face of her slowly disappearing mind, or Josh's burgeoning thirst for power?

What part does Mars Altor play in their staying united against the Dark Elders?


Personally, I think the prophecy had a double meaning. I think it refers to the swords and the Newmans...which one will protect and which one will destroy is still up for debate.

What do you think?


This post has been edited by LadyCake: Sep 5 2009, 01:58 PM


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Dreamteam
post Oct 3 2009, 09:57 AM
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QUOTE(paint it Black @ Oct 2 2009, 10:57 PM) *
I am puzzled by some things about the sword/s, so I thought I'd throw them out there and see if anyone has any ideas. smile.gif The first is, on page 482 of The Sorceress, where it says that Dee had been searching for Clarent for 500 years. "It was a quest that had taken him all over the world and into the Shadowrealms......And he had finally found it almost where it started. One of the first places he'd looked for the blade was under the Altar stone at Stonehenge..." Why then in The Magician, when Dee convinces Josh to accompany him after encountering Nidhogg and the Disir, does he just leave Clarent in the street? Josh tells him that he's left it and needs to retrieve it, but Dee says, "Trust me, you don't want to return for it," (p. 340) and drives away. Why wouldn't he throw a bit more fire at the Disir in order to help Josh retrieve it so that he could get his hands on it right then and there?
Or is there more to it than just the danger of facing the Disir? Does Dee know that Clarent has powers that Josh doesn't understand?

QUOTE
Here's another: At the end of The Sorceress, Dee lies on his back and brings Clarent and Excalibur near each other. They are inexplicably drawn to each other, and then they unite into one sword. Yet when Josh touched Excalibur's hilt with Clarent's blade at the car yard in The Magician, nothing like this happened. We even hear that Mars used to wear both swords at once, and there was no mention of them uniting then. Another thing: When Josh grabbed Excalibur while holding Clarent after the battle with Dee at the car yard, he felt great pain and the hand holding Clarent started to bleed. What was that about? Why can Dee and Mars hold both swords but not Josh?

Perhaps they hold too much power for a mortal to handle them both or to unite them and that somehow the swords "know" who is handling them.

QUOTE
Curiously, when Dee retrieves Excalibur from the moat at the car yard in The Sorceress, he lies on his back and holds the sword to his chest. Later, he does the same thing with Clarent when he takes it from the grass at the end of the book (after Josh has thrown it at him); he lies on his back and holds Clarent on his chest. (In both cases, he's also described as being in mud.) What's going on there? Is each sword somehow identifying Dee in this way? Does this need to happen before the swords can unite? Are the swords perhaps seeking out Dee?

I'd missed that connection - I'd intended re-reading but haven't had time, must re-read before April though when The Necromancer comes out - but it's an interesting idea, what does Dee have that the swords need, I wonder.

QUOTE
Here's another interesting parallel: On pages 336-7 of The Magician, Josh's arm is wounded by the Disir; "The next swipe struck his bare arm between the shoulder and elbow. Clarent managed to nudge the sword at the last instant, so it was only the flat of the blade, rather than the razor-sharp edge, that hit him. Instantly, his entire arm went numb from shoulder to fingertips and he felt a sudden wash of nausea from the pain, the fear and the sudden realization that he was going to die. Clarent fell from his grasp and clattered to the ground." On page 481 of The Sorceress, Dee suffers a similar injury after Josh throws Clarent at him: "The Magician sat up slowly, cradling his right arm. It felt numb from fingertip to shoulder, where it had taken the full force of the blow from Clarent. He thought it might be broken." Not sure if there is any significance there...

Any thoughts? ponder.gif

I wonder whether Clarent has scruples so that it tries to cause the least injury, so numbing rather than severing for instance. OK, I know that's a little crazy lol.gif


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November's book is The Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger
"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS,
AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"

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paint it Black
post Oct 3 2009, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE(Dreamteam @ Oct 3 2009, 10:57 AM) *
QUOTE(paint it Black @ Oct 2 2009, 10:57 PM) *
....Why wouldn't he throw a bit more fire at the Disir in order to help Josh retrieve it so that he could get his hands on it right then and there?
Or is there more to it than just the danger of facing the Disir? Does Dee know that Clarent has powers that Josh doesn't understand?
I just think that Dee is so greedy that it's hard to understand why he wouldn't run out and get it! I think I've answered another question I had, though; on page 336 of The Sorceress we read Dee thinking about his centuries-long quest to unite the swords (at this point he already possesses 3 of the 4). Before re-reading this part I had been thinking that we didn't really hear about Dee longing for Clarent before the end of the book.

QUOTE(Dreamteam @ Oct 3 2009, 10:57 AM) *
QUOTE
.....Why can Dee and Mars hold both swords but not Josh?

Perhaps they hold too much power for a mortal to handle them both or to unite them and that somehow the swords "know" who is handling them.
I like both of those answers. smile.gif

QUOTE(Dreamteam @ Oct 3 2009, 10:57 AM) *
QUOTE
Curiously, when Dee retrieves Excalibur from the moat at the car yard in The Sorceress, he lies on his back and holds the sword to his chest. Later, he does the same thing with Clarent when he takes it from the grass at the end of the book (after Josh has thrown it at him); he lies on his back and holds Clarent on his chest. (In both cases, he's also described as being in mud.) What's going on there? Is each sword somehow identifying Dee in this way? Does this need to happen before the swords can unite? Are the swords perhaps seeking out Dee?

I'd missed that connection - I'd intended re-reading but haven't had time, must re-read before April though when The Necromancer comes out - but it's an interesting idea, what does Dee have that the swords need, I wonder.
Maybe the swords are all seeking each other, and they know that Dee has the other 3? I don't know why Dee should be privileged to be the 'keeper of the swords', but perhaps they don't care who has them, as long as they are together. Then the big question is, what happens when all 4 are together? And does his Elder know that he has the swords? Guess we'll have to wait until April to learn that...

QUOTE(Dreamteam @ Oct 3 2009, 10:57 AM) *
QUOTE
Here's another interesting parallel: On pages 336-7 of The Magician, Josh's arm is wounded by the Disir; "The next swipe struck his bare arm between the shoulder and elbow. Clarent managed to nudge the sword at the last instant, so it was only the flat of the blade, rather than the razor-sharp edge, that hit him. Instantly, his entire arm went numb from shoulder to fingertips and he felt a sudden wash of nausea from the pain, the fear and the sudden realization that he was going to die. Clarent fell from his grasp and clattered to the ground." On page 481 of The Sorceress, Dee suffers a similar injury after Josh throws Clarent at him: "The Magician sat up slowly, cradling his right arm. It felt numb from fingertip to shoulder, where it had taken the full force of the blow from Clarent. He thought it might be broken." Not sure if there is any significance there...

I wonder whether Clarent has scruples so that it tries to cause the least injury, so numbing rather than severing for instance. OK, I know that's a little crazy lol.gif
Just had the thought that perhaps this experience of numbness, etc. is when Clarent is sucking up the experience of the person holding the sword; the same information that Josh experiences when he uses Clarent and sees the memories of others that have battled with it....?

Thanks Dreamteam for replying, and thanks as well to all who shared these books with me! It was fun to discuss something so recently published, as there were not a lot of well-known pre-existing theories out there and we were free to find our own!


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"Only love...can leave such a mark / But only love...can heal such a scar" -U2

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