RG Corner Booth Transcript: Mar 3, 2007, Last Chapter of GoF/OotP Launch |
 Mar 3 2007, 03:19 PM
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She Who Channels Rita Skeeter  Posts: 2,938 Joined: 11:40pm January 17, 2006 Location: Twiddling My Time-Turner   |
Today's Moderators: Aislinn, Expelliarmas, fawkes28, futureweasley, Mr. McGonagall, Poet
[12:58] *** futureweasley has joined #lounge [12:58] *** Expelliarmas has joined #lounge [12:59] <futureweasley> hello! [12:59] <fawkes28> woo hoo for chapter 37 [12:59] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [12:59] <fawkes28> welcome aislinn [12:59] <fawkes28> smile [13:00] <Aislinn> thanks [13:00] <fawkes28> No problem! [13:00] <fawkes28> harhar [13:01] *** Snuffles changed the topic to: Reading Group chat - final chapter of GoF, Launch OotP [13:01] <futureweasley> ok, the emoticons are about done [13:01] *** jewel10 has joined #lounge [13:01] <Aislinn> real mature there, birdie [13:01] *** CedrellaBlack has joined #lounge [13:01] <Aislinn> hehehehehe [13:01] *** danae24 has joined #lounge [13:01] *** danae24 has quit [Bye] [13:02] <CedrellaBlack> Hey Everyone! [13:02] <fawkes28> hello all smile [13:02] <futureweasley> hi Ced...long time no see [13:02] <fawkes28> where did everyone get sorted? [13:02] <futureweasley> did you get sorted today? [13:02] <CedrellaBlack> wow its been so long [13:02] <CedrellaBlack> i know [13:02] <CedrellaBlack> yepp! [13:02] <futureweasley> so, where are you at? [13:02] <CedrellaBlack> im in Room 18 the Atrium [13:02] <futureweasley> oooh, with the fair Expie [13:02] <fawkes28> nice room [13:02] <futureweasley> you are going to have a ball [13:02] <CedrellaBlack> yeppers! [13:02] <fawkes28> watch out when you talk about snape [13:02] <futureweasley> Jewel, are you here? [13:02] <fawkes28> hehehe [13:03] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [13:03] <fawkes28> hey cloudpic [13:03] <Expelliarmas> Room 18 rocks [13:03] <CedrellaBlack> i filled out the whole survey and then realized it was 1:00 so i clicked on the link to the CB but it didnt open in a new page, so i deleted the whole survey ahaaa [13:03] * cloudpic here... but head spinning from sorting [13:03] <CedrellaBlack> so i will put it up again later [13:04] *** danae24 has joined #lounge [13:04] <CedrellaBlack> danae! [13:04] <fawkes28> awww [13:04] <cloudpic> aww... Cedrella... all that work! [13:04] <futureweasley> hi everyone! [13:04] <danae24> it didnt let me in......... [13:04] *** JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge [13:04] <CedrellaBlack> Jane!! [13:04] <MrMcGonagall> I'm in Chamber 88, Where Time Stands Still. [13:04] <futureweasley> hi Jane [13:04] <danae24> Snuffles is being evil to me today........ [13:04] <Expelliarmas> heya Jane [13:04] <JaneMarple9> bye1 everybody [13:04] <CedrellaBlack> i havent talked to you in forever!! [13:04] <fawkes28> that is a great title for you mr. m [13:04] <fawkes28> time [13:04] * cloudpic waves to all [13:04] <fawkes28> devil2 [13:04] <JaneMarple9> Snap Mr McGonagal same here! [13:04] <danae24> bye1 [13:05] <JaneMarple9> Yes Ced, good to see you [13:05] <danae24> Hi everyone!!!! [13:05] <MrMcGonagall> I hate Time-Turners. My wand is itching for a Reductor Curse. [13:05] <danae24> hahahahaha [13:05] <futureweasley> careful where you point that thing, MrM! [13:05] <CedrellaBlack> I've been caught up in Stage Crew for the musical so i havent had a lot of time for LL [13:05] <danae24> fawkes is a fellow spy!!! [13:05] <CedrellaBlack> and last week i went to florida for feb break [13:05] <futureweasley> *hem, hem* [13:05] *** nympheart has joined #lounge [13:05] *** nympheart has quit [Bye] [13:06] <fawkes28> yes, i am [13:06] <MrMcGonagall> hi, nymph! [13:06] *** Moriah has joined #lounge [13:06] <fawkes28> spying is a great thing [13:06] <futureweasley> hey Moriah! [13:06] <danae24> yep! [13:06] <fawkes28> hi moriah [13:06] <Moriah> Hey all! [13:06] <danae24> Hello Moriah!!!! [13:06] * futureweasley is a fellow "spy" as well [13:06] <Aislinn> hi folks smile [13:06] <CedrellaBlack> hi moriah! [13:06] <CedrellaBlack> lol poor future [13:06] * Moriah is so super excited about sorting today!! [13:06] <danae24> a lot of CB's are in 007! [13:06] *** bemused has joined #lounge [13:06] *** JaneMarple9 has quit [Bye] [13:06] <fawkes28> hi bemused [13:07] <bemused> hello! [13:07] <danae24> Hi Bemused! [13:07] <Moriah> Hey bemused! [13:07] <CedrellaBlack> a lot of people i know are in the brain room [13:07] <CedrellaBlack> hey bemused! [13:07] *** nympheart has joined #lounge [13:07] <cloudpic> LOL... I keep misreading that as Brian room... duh [13:07] <futureweasley> lol [13:07] <danae24> laugh [13:07] <MrMcGonagall> Wootywoohoowahey! Bemused is one of my RG leaders this time! [13:07] <Moriah> teehee [13:07] <nympheart> Snuffles is tempermental today [13:07] <Expelliarmas> so did I! need to get glasses [13:07] <bemused> I like Brian room... [13:07] <futureweasley> the life of Brian room [13:07] *** SillyPutty has joined #lounge [13:07] *** JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge [13:07] <danae24> I wanted to have one of the new RG leaders..... no luck [13:07] <bemused> Oh help - be kind to me, Mr M [13:07] <futureweasley> hey SillyPutty! [13:07] <Expelliarmas> or another pair of glasses that is [13:08] <JaneMarple9> Hi Bemused! [13:08] <MrMcGonagall> I'm kind to everyone. Don't ask fawkes28, though. [13:08] <bemused> Hello Jane [13:08] <futureweasley> you do have one, danae...QuestAuthor [13:08] <fawkes28> why not, Mr. M? [13:08] <cloudpic> w/b Jane [13:08] <JaneMarple9> I am in your group too! w00t2 [13:08] <danae24> Ohh!!!!! [13:08] <Aislinn> even time turner theorists, Mr M? ;) [13:08] <SillyPutty> hey decided to pop in for a few [13:08] <bemused> fawkes'll be kind to me [13:08] <Moriah> Hi SillyPutty! [13:08] <fawkes28> yes, bemused and I are going to have fun when the book comes out [13:08] <Expelliarmas> you'd think so, wouldn't you, bemused [13:08] <danae24> I do have luck after all!!!!!!! [13:08] <MrMcGonagall> I just say bad things about time-turner theorists behind their back, Aislinn. [13:09] <MrMcGonagall> No, I just don't like the theories. smile [13:09] <fawkes28> we will be watched certain people eating a dish rag [13:09] <futureweasley> yay for the luck of the spy! [13:09] <CedrellaBlack> hahaha lol MrMcG [13:09] <bemused> Absolutely, fawkes [13:09] *** jewel10 has quit [Bye] [13:09] <nympheart> I think I regret having started that one time turner thread [13:09] *** harryfreak359 has joined #lounge [13:09] <Expelliarmas> heya, hf [13:09] <fawkes28> hey hf [13:09] <CedrellaBlack> why is there a choice between #lounge and something else? [13:10] <danae24> Hi hf! [13:10] <harryfreak359> hello [13:10] <futureweasley> don't worry, fawkes is not kind to anybody...she is blanket-snarky. Don't take it personally [13:10] <CedrellaBlack> hey hf =] [13:10] <danae24> yes...... I got that same thing.......... [13:10] <SillyPutty> have a great day everyone... I already have to leave... [13:10] <SillyPutty> bye! [13:10] <futureweasley> HF, what room are you in? [13:10] *** heathermichelle has joined #lounge [13:10] <futureweasley> bye SillyPutty! [13:10] <futureweasley> hi heathermichelle! [13:10] *** SillyPutty has quit [Bye] [13:10] <CedrellaBlack> byebyee sillyputty! [13:10] <heathermichelle> hello! [13:10] <bemused> Hello heathermichelle [13:10] <danae24> There is another room..... [13:10] <Moriah> Hey heathermichelle! [13:10] <harryfreak359> I am int he Brain Room [13:10] *** CedrellaBlack has quit [Bye] [13:10] <harryfreak359> in the* [13:11] <futureweasley> ooh, that's going to be a good one, too! [13:11] <harryfreak359> where are you Future? [13:11] <futureweasley> 64224, right? [13:11] <harryfreak359> yup [13:11] *** CedrellaBlack has joined #lounge [13:11] <futureweasley> I'm in 007 [13:11] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:11] <nympheart> I have to say I am in love with the 007 SpyElves theme [13:11] <harryfreak359> cool [13:11] <CedrellaBlack> ahhh tha soo confuseing [13:11] <futureweasley> me too nymph [13:11] <fawkes28> i am keeping her on her toes, hf [13:11] <danae24> We are the only room with a theme song included...... [13:11] <futureweasley> lol, yes she is [13:11] <nympheart> lol [13:11] <CedrellaBlack> lol [13:11] <harryfreak359> hehehe [13:12] <fawkes28> nymph is as well - hehehe [13:12] <heathermichelle> that's great...i'm in the Most Noble and Magical Chamber 29 [13:12] <Moriah> Woot! [13:12] <heathermichelle> because we're better than you! bwa ha..ha... or, you know, not [13:12] <Moriah> lol, nah [13:12] <futureweasley> ooh, you are going to have a great time in 29...our fair Aislinn is in there, and I think that's Moriah's room! [13:12] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:13] <Moriah> It is! We have a great group of members already! [13:13] <fawkes28> wb, aislinn [13:13] <futureweasley> that's so awesome! [13:13] <Moriah> All the rooms are looking amazing [13:13] *** atschpe has joined #lounge [13:13] <futureweasley> yes they do! [13:13] <cloudpic> Now, Lily and Staggers are all amazing! [13:13] <Moriah> Exactly, cloudpic [13:13] <atschpe> Hi all [13:13] <fawkes28> i will even woot this time - Woot for RGs! [13:13] <Moriah> hehe [13:13] <futureweasley> woot for RG's indeed [13:14] <bemused> Now, fawkes wooting is quite something! [13:14] <cloudpic> Wow.... I need to sit... fawkes! [13:14] <heathermichelle> heh, i joined the LL just for the reading groups last spring [13:14] <cloudpic> A rare and wonderous moment... [13:14] <fawkes28> hehehe [13:14] <Moriah> I joined for the RGs as well [13:14] <heathermichelle> and i have not been disappointed [13:14] <bemused> Can I throw in a quick wa-hey here? [13:14] <fawkes28> see when i woot it shows how happy i am because i dont do it often at all [13:14] <Moriah>  [13:14] <cloudpic> We're so glad you did, heathermichelle! [13:14] <JaneMarple9> reading groups are so fantastic! [13:14] *** africansk8er has joined #lounge [13:14] <danae24> yep...... we are in the rare sight of a Fawkes wooting............ unbelievable......... [13:14] <fawkes28> me too, heathermichelle [13:14] <danae24> laugh [13:14] <JaneMarple9> nearly as good as the Corner Booth biggrin [13:15] <futureweasley> ok ladies and gents, we are going to get started... [13:15] <fawkes28> ok now - but you aren't going to see it again today [13:15] <futureweasley> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You’re not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you’ll be able to type again soon. [13:15] <futureweasley> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod [13:15] <futureweasley> You won’t be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it” in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [13:15] <futureweasley> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [13:16] <futureweasley> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [13:16] <fawkes28> At the end of GoF, Harry is on sensory overload. He's lived through a horror and now has to come to terms with it. Through a heartbreaking meeting with the Diggorys where neither blames Harry. Amos is devastated. Mrs. Diggory seems beyond tears, so profound is her sorrow. Mrs. Diggory refuses the 1,000 galleons. [13:16] <fawkes28> Dumbledore asks the students not to question Harry which results in people avoiding Harry or not meeting his eyes at all. Ron and Hermione give Harry his space and don't pry. Dumbledore insists upon Harry returning to the Dursleys for part of the summer after which he can return to The Burrow. Hagrid and Maxime have a job to do for Dumbledore. [13:16] <fawkes28> At the Leaving Feast, out of respect for Cedric, black drapes take the place of the colorful house colors. At the teachers' table sits the real, but nervous Moody. Karkaroff has gone missing. Snape and Harry stare at each other and Harry wonders what Snape did for Dumbledore. The Hufflepuffs remain rather quiet. [13:16] *** kimmparker has joined #lounge [13:16] <fawkes28> Dumbledore addresses the students, by toasting Cedric and then by telling them that Cedric was murdered by LV. Dumbledore raises his glass to Harry in honor of his exceptional bravery. He speaks stresses the importance of unity and makes it clear the Durmstrang students are welcome at Hogwarts. As they make to leave school, Krum makes it clear he liked Cedric. [13:16] <fawkes28> On the train, Harry speaks with Ron and Hermione. They speculate as to what Dumbledore might be doing to block Voldemort. Hermione tells them there is nothing at all in The Daily Prophet. Courtesy of the Ministry? Hermione shut Rita up. If Rita's not careful, she'll get swatted by a rolled up newspaper (oh, pleeeasee, let me!). Rita must keep her quill to herself for a year. [13:17] <fawkes28> Malfoy taunts them with LVs return. Before he can finish, the anti-Trio get nailed with spells from the Trio and from Fred and George. Fred and George confess that they've spent the school year trying to collect from Bagman who wouldn't even return their original wager. Harry gives the twins the 1,000 Galleons; but, they can't tell Molly and they must buy Ron new dress robes. [13:17] <fawkes28> In OOTP, Harry must come to terms with Cedric's murder and LV's return. He also must deal with overarching issues of trust, loyalty, and betrayal. We also see Percy go from Ministry hack to Ministry pawn which leads us into the Temptation of Percy. We also see the great theme of manipulation making its way through OOTP. [13:17] <fawkes28> All caught up? Good! Turning to the chat: [13:17] <fawkes28> Was Dumbledore trying to create a rallying point when he encouraged people to think about what happened to Cedric when they were faced with difficult choices? If so, why? [13:18] <futureweasley> absolutely! [13:18] <nympheart> I think he was, nothing brings people together like tragedy [13:18] <MrMcGonagall> Yes - such a Dumbledore-esque moment. [13:18] <danae24> I really think so..... [13:18] <cloudpic> hmmm.... may have been to give them all (even staff) something to consider [13:18] <bemused> Yes - as kids, Cedric's death was very close to them - something they'd undrstand [13:18] <Expelliarmas> Yes. It gives folks something to get angry about and to unify over [13:18] <fawkes28> i think he knew how bad it was going to get [13:18] <Moriah> Right, it made people realize that no one was save from LV [13:18] <cloudpic> Yes... based upon such a powerful event... [13:18] <futureweasley> it was so unfortunate what happened to Cedric, but it's the type of event that could really motivate people into action [13:19] <Moriah> Even a great guy and a student like Cedric [13:19] <bemused> and it was a reminder that it could happen to kids too [13:19] <nympheart> He suspected what the ministry was going to try and was attempting to get people to remember Cedric, so they wouldn't believe Fudge [13:19] <fawkes28> it was his last chance to address the students before they left and starting hearing crazy things from the minsitry [13:19] <MrMcGonagall> There's basically a right side and a wrong side to be on. It echoes his words to Fudge about being on the same side so long as they're both fighting Voldemort. [13:19] *** Pleshette has joined #lounge [13:19] <cloudpic> You're right, nympheart... [13:19] <fawkes28> hi pleshette [13:19] <cloudpic> preparing them. [13:19] <futureweasley> right, and house unity, separate, but in essense, the same...that was so important [13:20] <Expelliarmas> interesting that Dumbledore doesn't mention the houses when he speaks of Cedric [13:20] <fawkes28> he wanted to be able to speak his mind first so that hopefully they would remember his words before they left for the summer [13:20] <JaneMarple9> he was trying to unite the houses [13:20] <Expelliarmas> as a point of unity, that is [13:20] <atschpe> Good point Expie [13:20] <futureweasley> that is every interesting, Expie [13:20] *** Joyhawk2121 has joined #lounge [13:20] <cloudpic> I loved that the speech was given in front of the "guests" from other schools too [13:20] <Pleshette> Hi everyone! [13:20] <Expelliarmas> hello Joyhawk [13:20] <atschpe> Hi Pleshette [13:20] <Moriah> Me too, cloudpic ... and how he reminded them that they are welcome always [13:20] <Joyhawk2121> hello everyone [13:20] <JaneMarple9> tell the students that Voldie was responsible for Cedrics death and not harry [13:20] <bemused> yes, cloudpic - and that the guests were welcomed back [13:21] <cloudpic> Definitely, Jane! [13:21] <JaneMarple9> because a lot of people suspected harry was responsible [13:21] <heathermichelle> i think the black decorating the hall was important too...no house colors featured [13:21] <atschpe> Yes clodupic. And how he included them in his address for friendship [13:21] <heathermichelle> it was an entire school mourning, not just one house [13:21] <JaneMarple9> yes heather [13:21] <Moriah> Good point, heather [13:21] <danae24> Dumbledore knows that everyone deserves to know the truth, and to be around the bush [13:21] <futureweasley> right, it was also very important that the students didn't make Harry out to be responsible [13:21] <fawkes28> yes, heathermichelle - it showed the seriousness of it [13:21] <cloudpic> O... I hadn't thought of that aspect, heather [13:21] <Expelliarmas> yes, hm, the focus was on unity and not on divisiveness [13:21] <JaneMarple9> there was no favourtism in the houses in that speech [13:21] <cloudpic> I like his no nonsense attitude too, danae [13:21] <JaneMarple9> the Hufflepuffs were shocked [13:22] <futureweasley> right, caution to the wind, trust out on the table [13:22] <futureweasley> this is what happened, period. but it's just the beginning of the discussion [13:22] <fawkes28> What did you think of Karkaroff staying in his cabin and letting the students do all the work in navigating the ship. [13:22] <danae24> everyone was shocked....... after being promised that there was extra security, someone ends up being dead [13:22] <cloudpic> hmpff. [13:22] <heathermichelle> oh, gee...karkaroff. don't get me started, lol [13:22] <futureweasley> what a weiney [13:22] <Expelliarmas> I was surprised at first, and then it made sense [13:22] <atschpe> So his character [13:22] <nympheart> I wasn't too surprised actually [13:22] <bemused> probably typical of him [13:22] <danae24> Karkaroff took advantage of his power position...... [13:22] <CedrellaBlack> Hes a lazy bum [13:22] <cloudpic> Karkaroff was not just evil... but lazy [13:22] <fawkes28> ah, it definitely gives us great insight into his character [13:23] <danae24> he was a leather chair potato [13:23] <cloudpic> 1LOL, Cedrella.. [13:23] <Moriah> Lazy ... and on a power trip as Headmaster [13:23] <CedrellaBlack> lol [13:23] <atschpe> Fits in perfectly with them nott havign nay fires but for magic [13:23] <Expelliarmas> maybe we judge too harshly, he could've been seasick [13:23] <MrMcGonagall> Hardly a surprise for Karkaroff. [13:23] <Expelliarmas> no magical dramamine [13:23] <cloudpic> Yeah, right, Expie.. [13:23] <futureweasley> ooh, cloudpic, I'm not sure that I agree with the "evil" thing in regards to Karkaroff. I lump him in the same category as Pettigrew...an opportunist [13:23] <nympheart> maybe, expie, but Viktor seemed annoyed with Karkaroff for it [13:23] <cloudpic> DE [13:23] <danae24> Maybe Karkaroff didnt know how to drive a ship....... [13:23] <Joyhawk2121> its shows just the type of person he is [13:23] <Moriah> I agree, nympheart [13:23] *** Ringo2000 has joined #lounge [13:23] <JaneMarple9> Karkaoff was not a popular head [13:23] <futureweasley> ex-DE [13:23] <fawkes28> well, Karkaroff cannot be in power in other aspects of his life (death eaters) so he is showing power in this situation to feel good about himself [13:23] <MrMcGonagall> Eating bonbons and sipping hot cocoa in the captain's cabin while everyone else is working the ship. [13:24] <heathermichelle> it shows quite a stark difference between the way dumbledore's and karakaroff's headmaster styles [13:24] <Expelliarmas> hello, Ringo [13:24] <Ringo2000> Hey Everyone [13:24] <CedrellaBlack> He was also a Social Climber...the way he treated krum was pretty outrageously overdoing it [13:24] <CedrellaBlack> hey ringo! [13:24] <JaneMarple9> he was frightened when Voldie called the Death Eaters together [13:24] <danae24> he was taking care of every need Krum had....... [13:24] <Expelliarmas> well, not everyone, MrM; he'd have his favorites [13:24] <cloudpic> Interesting view, fawkes... you're kinder than I. I have no use for him. [13:24] <Ringo2000> Hey Guys, Great Reading Groups [13:24] <JaneMarple9> He is frightened that his master is growing powerful [13:24] <futureweasley> I would definitely be interested to know what he is teaching at his school [13:24] <cloudpic> Plays favorites. [13:24] <Expelliarmas> i don't think he was a teacher, fw [13:25] <Ringo2000> Hey Ced, Hi Expie! [13:25] <Pleshette> Definitely cloudpic...choosing the best to use for his advantage [13:25] <futureweasley> I mean, the cirriculum he allows at his school [13:25] <futureweasley> sorry [13:25] <fawkes28> Did Krum like Karkaroff? [13:25] <CedrellaBlack> o [13:25] <CedrellaBlack> no* [13:25] <nympheart> no [13:25] <Moriah> I don't think so [13:25] <futureweasley> I don't really think so [13:25] <MrMcGonagall> No, I don't think so. [13:25] <bemused> He didn't seem to [13:25] <Pleshette> I'd say that he probably didn't respect him [13:25] <Expelliarmas> heavens, no; i think krum saw right through Karkaroff [13:25] <JaneMarple9> i don't think so [13:25] <cloudpic> Didn't they say that they actually teach the Dark Arts... not just defense? [13:25] <nympheart> I think Karkaroff drove him nuts trying to get close to him [13:25] <MrMcGonagall> Respected authority, yes, but didn't like him. [13:25] <danae24> No.... he just was playing popular [13:25] <fawkes28> i think krum respected him to other people but on the inside he didn't [13:25] <JaneMarple9> he barely tolerated him as a head [13:25] <nympheart> yeah, Draco did, cp [13:26] <Moriah> I think he purposedly wanted to set himself aside from Karkaroff based on his words at the end of GoF [13:26] <futureweasley> I think, because Viktor is a good kid, he respected Karkaroff's position...not necessarily the man in the position [13:26] <cloudpic> Karkaroff is an opportunist, you're right... and uses even the kids [13:26] <heathermichelle> yeah, krum at least respected the position, even if he didn't respect the person [13:26] <JaneMarple9> viktor respected Dunbledore and Harry more [13:26] <Ringo2000> Krum, No I think Krum new what was going on [13:26] <MrMcGonagall> Exactly, f [13:26] <Moriah> Well said, heather [13:26] <CedrellaBlack> yes jane [13:26] <Pleshette> Yes I agree with that fawkes because is decent [13:26] <danae24> Viktor only saw Karkaroff as another fan...... [13:26] <Pleshette> *Krum [13:26] <atschpe> so true danae [13:26] <Moriah> Well, he probably recognized that Karkaroff was using him as well [13:26] <futureweasley> I think he saw him as a means to an end...endure Karkaroff, get the education, move on [13:26] <Expelliarmas> Well, he respected DD and Harry because they stood in stark contrast with Karkaroff [13:27] <cloudpic> Thanks nympheart... I'm readinging slowly today [13:27] <Expelliarmas> Krum didn't get to pick his headmaster [13:27] * cloudpic typing poorly too [13:27] <atschpe> Yes Expie, andd they respected him in turn [13:27] <fawkes28> Why did Ron ask for Krum's autograph? [13:27] <danae24> need to go........ see ya around the RG's [13:27] <Ringo2000> I think Krum took on board the attention of his Headmaster, I suppose he was just a "star" pupil [13:27] <Moriah> See ya, danae! [13:27] <danae24> bye everyone bye1 [13:28] *** danae24 left #lounge [] [13:28] <Ringo2000> by danae [13:28] <Expelliarmas> I think it took a lot for Ron to ask for the autograph [13:28] <MrMcGonagall> Ron was beginning to get over his jealously. But only beginning. [13:28] <atschpe> Bye danae [13:28] <MrMcGonagall> Moment of maturation. [13:28] <bemused> hed's really wanted to all along [13:28] <nympheart> because he was finally willing to admire Krum again instead of seeing him as an enemy [13:28] <fawkes28> Ron was fanboying Krum [13:28] <Moriah> I think Ron finally realized that Krum wasn't the enemy [13:28] <CedrellaBlack> Krum is a decent person, and he knows when to respect people, especially when you are famous you have to know to respect people becuase if you dont it will make you look bad [13:28] <cloudpic> You're right Ringo [13:28] <JaneMarple9> take care danae [13:28] <Expelliarmas> lol, fawkes [13:28] <JaneMarple9> yes Moriah [13:28] *** Kneazly has joined #lounge [13:28] <atschpe> I agree nymph [13:28] <CedrellaBlack> if he did one thing badly it would be on the wizard tabloids [13:28] <futureweasley> Ron fanboys Krum...it shows that Ron still holds on to that "boyish" side of his personality [13:28] <bemused> hello kneazly [13:28] <MrMcGonagall> hi, kneazly! [13:28] <JaneMarple9> Ron finally begrudingly began to accept Krum as a equal [13:28] <CedrellaBlack> hey kneazly [13:28] <CedrellaBlack> i agree future [13:28] <Kneazly> Hi all! [13:29] <Ringo2000> Ron was doing it for the attention and annoyance of Hermione - Come On, Ron couldnt resist the autograph of the worlds most famous seeker, it would, at that point in the books, would be out of character [13:29] <JaneMarple9> even though he didn't like him being so friendly with hermione [13:29] <heathermichelle> he's definitely fanboying. but at least he's getting over his jealousy. i mean, not that long ago, he'd broken his krum figurine because of it [13:29] <fawkes28> he wanted to be like Krum - any young boy who loves Quidditch admires those who are good at it [13:29] <cloudpic> Yes, Cedrella...but don't you think he didn't care about that? (Krum I mean) [13:29] <JaneMarple9> hi Kneazly [13:29] <Expelliarmas> I think he wanted the autograph for himself, not to show Hermione anything in particular [13:29] <CedrellaBlack> no matter how much he hated krumione he still was in love iwth the quidditch player [13:29] <nympheart> yes, fawkes, he even wanted Viktor's girlfriend [13:29] <fawkes28> However it also goes to show that "celebrities" don't always have the best lives [13:30] <Expelliarmas> it helped that Krum had just told Harry how much he respected Cedric [13:30] <atschpe> He would have asked earlier if he wanted to get at Hermione [13:30] <cloudpic> LOL, cedrella "krumione" Hadn't seen that before! [13:30] <Moriah> haha, nice, nymph... I think there was probably something with the girlfriend first though [13:30] <fawkes28> as Ron later learns that Krum is not perfect [13:30] <nympheart> agreed, Moriah [13:30] <CedrellaBlack> I dont think he cared cp, but it would also reflect badly on everyone he knows...his family...his school...his quidditch team [13:30] <futureweasley> I also think that Ron might have asked for Krum's autograph as a coping mechanism. If I just get what I started out for, maybe I can erase what really happened this year... [13:30] <nympheart> but I do think that Krum dating her was a wakeup call [13:30] <heathermichelle> that's really interesting future...I hadn't thought of that [13:30] <Moriah> Yeah, exactly [13:31] *** jade_and_diamond_fire has joined #lounge [13:31] <cloudpic> Interesting thought, future... maybe not consciously, but possible [13:31] <bemused> that's an interesting thought, future [13:31] <CedrellaBlack> definetely nymph [13:31] <Ringo2000> I think Ron had to - It's in his nature, he loves Quidditch and c'mon if you were a hardcore fan (like we are of HP) if JKR pulled up outside your house you couldnt resist - same for run [13:31] <jade_and_diamond_fire> hey everybody! [13:31] <Kneazly> Hi jade [13:31] <Moriah> Hi jade! [13:31] *** KariKate has joined #lounge [13:31] <atschpe> Hi jade [13:31] <Expelliarmas> if JKR pulled up outside my house, i'd drop dead [13:31] <CedrellaBlack> hey jade! [13:31] <Joyhawk2121> brb [13:31] <Moriah> Yeah, the opportunity was too perfect, Ringo [13:31] *** Joyhawk2121 left #lounge [] [13:31] <atschpe> lol Expie [13:31] <cloudpic> LOL... I sure be in line for the autograph, Ringo [13:31] <fawkes28> Given the Ministry suppresses the story, it becomes obvious the press and the government are totally intertwined in the Wizarding community. What are your thoughts about that? [13:31] <bemused> that's be scary for her, Expie! [13:31] <Ringo2000> **ron [13:32] <MrMcGonagall> Bad, bad system. [13:32] <Expelliarmas> I found it troubling that the press was not independent [13:32] <futureweasley> business as usual [13:32] <CedrellaBlack> same expie [13:32] *** KariKate has quit [Bye] [13:32] <JaneMarple9> that would be a "little" drastoc Expie! [13:32] <Moriah> I think the media also knew that the wizarding world wouldn't want to hear DD and Harry's story [13:32] <bemused> immoral [13:32] <jade_and_diamond_fire> yeah, that's kind of the way that you get a tyrrannical system [13:32] <cloudpic> Seems to echo typical bureaucrat thinking... if we don't see it it isn't there [13:32] <Moriah> They weren't ready for it so the media was happy to keep quiet [13:32] <MrMcGonagall> Well, at least the Daily Prophet can be leaned on by the Ministry. Thank goodness for the tabloids. LOL [13:32] <futureweasley> like how the press taints stories in the Middle East...slants stories their way [13:32] <atschpe> Perhaps not "knew" but they sure presumed it would be better, Mo [13:32] <heathermichelle> Just what would happen, though, if the Daily Prophet DID post the truth? [13:32] <JaneMarple9> just the justice system - correction the INjustice system again [13:32] <futureweasley> I'm sure it happens to an extent in the US as well [13:32] <Expelliarmas> I think the media would've fawned over it, but for Fudge squelching it [13:33] <bemused> and curious - last night the BBC was stopped from broadcasting something about the govt - so it's not that far from home! [13:33] <Moriah> Then why wasn't Rita more excited to tell Harry's story? [13:33] <Kneazly> After all the Harry-bashing they'd done, would anyone believe it? [13:33] <CedrellaBlack> and then they dont publish things in OoTP like the dementor attacks on harry [13:33] <cloudpic> Good question, heathermichelle... I think the Ministry was afraid they'd have a panic... and they wouldn't be able to handle it [13:33] <Ringo2000> Of course, "Fudge's Ministry" wouldn't want anything out like "Lord Voldemorts Back", It would give Fudge a bad name, So I think it would be nessicary for Fudge to have control over the Wizarding Press - or Fudge wouldn't be that power controlling character we see in Book Five! [13:33] <JaneMarple9> the wizarding justice system hasn;t been updated for a long time I don't think [13:33] <Expelliarmas> in the US there would be a lawsuit and the courts would side with the media [13:33] <jade_and_diamond_fire> well, it is different if its stopped for security reasons or more like propaganda [13:33] <CedrellaBlack> Probably because she was not being allowed to write anything else moriah [13:33] <bemused> Not here they don't, Expie! [13:33] <cloudpic> I don't think it was security... just cowardice [13:34] <CedrellaBlack> same cp [13:34] <Moriah> Right, Cedrella, I'm just saying I don't know that the Ministry had to squash too much ... the media (including Rita) weren't interested in telling Harry's story [13:34] <Aislinn> I agree cloudpic - it was pure cowardice, and denial of what is real [13:34] <heathermichelle> I guess I'm just curious if those involved with the DP were threatened with their jobs [13:34] <cloudpic> Rita was not interested in journalism... but sensationalism [13:34] <Expelliarmas> the Daily Prophet enjoys a good panic; notice how breathlessly they reported on the Dark Mark at Quidditch Cup [13:34] <heathermichelle> or if they just wanted to go along with the status quo [13:34] <futureweasley> it's just a bad situation...it's horribly difficult to effect change in public opinion after so much bad publicity [13:34] <cloudpic> and keeping the Powers That Be Happy [13:34] <atschpe> Mo, Rita was out of the running by that time. Hermione captured here that night in the Hospitla wing [13:34] <MrMcGonagall> Even the DP loves scandal, and the feud between Fudge and DD becomes great fodder for them. [13:35] <bemused> yes, cloudpic [13:35] <jade_and_diamond_fire> yes, it is surprising the the Prophet is their main paper, because its sort of like the National Inquirer [13:35] <fawkes28> Rita can turn into a beetle. How appropriate was that? [13:35] <cloudpic> To be honest, I can understand the fear... but prefer Dumbledore's honesty [13:35] <Ringo2000> I agree Future! Two sides of a story confuses the Wizarding World [13:35] <Moriah> Even in OotP when Hermione gives her the chance, though, atschpe [13:35] <Moriah> She's not thrilled about it [13:35] <cloudpic> Indeed. [13:35] <MrMcGonagall> I think a mosquito would have been more appropriate. [13:35] <bemused> Very, very appropriate!! [13:35] <CedrellaBlack> lol MrMcG! [13:35] <fawkes28> yes, mr. m [13:35] <cloudpic> or a roach [13:35] <Ringo2000> Oh, Very, It gave Rita her chance to "buzz" around on people. [13:35] <jade_and_diamond_fire> well, i found it ridiculously clever that JKR made the bugging thing literal, and she certainly is a pest [13:35] <nympheart> lol, MrM [13:35] <bemused> well, true, Mr M [13:35] <Expelliarmas> a blood sucking mosquito? now, now, she's not a lawyer, for heaven's sake [13:35] <MrMcGonagall> I guess Jo didn't want to be too literal, though. [13:35] <JaneMarple9> Hi Atschpe good to see you smile [13:35] <Ringo2000> laugh Mr Mc! [13:36] <atschpe> Because she can't twist and she'd like to , Mo [13:36] <Pleshette> Yes I agree jade [13:36] <cloudpic> LOL [13:36] <fawkes28> obviously Rita has no morals [13:36] <CedrellaBlack> hey atschpe [13:36] <heathermichelle> I thought it was quite appropriate, though rather dangerous [13:36] <atschpe> Hi Cedrella [13:36] <heathermichelle> I mean, what if she was inadvertantly squashed? [13:36] <JaneMarple9> Yes it was appropriate [13:36] <Moriah> *snort* [13:36] <bemused> What would happen if someone stepped on an animagus beetle? [13:36] <fawkes28> yes - not too smart of her [13:36] <Expelliarmas> she'd cast a spell on herself hm and heal [13:36] <Ringo2000> Hmmm.....Weird, I never saw Rita as a clever character. Cunning yes, but not smart like Dumb;edpre [13:36] <CedrellaBlack> uh oh bemused [13:36] *** Greeneyes15 has joined #lounge [13:36] <Ringo2000> **Dumbledore [13:37] <Expelliarmas> but the beetle was not something anyone would consider harmful, so it wouldnt get swatted [13:37] <JaneMarple9> hermione even gave her the same markings as her spectales etc [13:37] <Greeneyes15> Hey everyone!!!! i'm so happy the reading groups have started again!!! [13:37] <Expelliarmas> beetles are supposed to be helpful bugs, so they get a pass [13:37] <cloudpic> Nice distinction Ringo.... she's not wise, just wily [13:37] <Moriah> No, her animagus was naturally that way, JaneMarple [13:37] <Expelliarmas> it's a great camouflage for her [13:37] <jade_and_diamond_fire> hey Greeneyes [13:37] <bemused> hello Greeneyes [13:37] <Pleshette> Jane, I believe those markings were already there [13:37] <JaneMarple9> I don't think Animagus Beetles can be squashed smile [13:37] <Greeneyes15> what's the topic question? [13:37] <fawkes28> What did you think of Hermione taking Rita's pen away for a year? Was this ethical? Why or why not? [13:37] <Moriah> Just like McGonagall's cat animagus has similar glasses patterns [13:37] <Pleshette> Hey Greeneyes! [13:37] <JaneMarple9> ah were they? Interesting [13:37] <Ringo2000> Ok, yes, she has a twisted mind but a News Editor isnt as a good job [13:38] <Greeneyes15> hey pleshette [13:38] <Expelliarmas> Hermione did what she had to do! Good for her [13:38] <JaneMarple9> very very ethical - poetic justice in fact [13:38] <cloudpic> Ethical.. perhaps not entirely. Poetic justice. [13:38] <fawkes28> well, I don't think Rita was being Ethical so Hermione was fighting fire with fire [13:38] <MrMcGonagall> Rita was a pretty irresponsible journalist. I think there's some justice to the punishment. [13:38] <heathermichelle> Um...that's something I've been struggling a bit with [13:38] <cloudpic> LOL. Jane! [13:38] <JaneMarple9> the perfect thing to do [13:38] <nympheart> It's not how I would have done it, but...it worked [13:38] <jade_and_diamond_fire> its perfectly ethical, its not like it will harm her in anyway, hopefully it would allow her to reflect on the consequences of her writing [13:38] <Greeneyes15> i think it was great! rita deserved it! [13:38] <Moriah> I don't think it was ethical. I wish Hermione had found a different way to fight Rita [13:38] <bemused> It's not as though she couldn't use another pen - a nicer one [13:38] <atschpe> It's not completely unehtical [13:38] <Ringo2000> Oh this is like taking a computer from a IT Professional, Removing an Hobby , an passion! [13:38] <Moriah> And I definitely don't think she had the right to keep Rita in that jars for however many days she did [13:39] <futureweasley> there are pros and cons [13:39] <Greeneyes15> but she was abusing her talent! [13:39] <Expelliarmas> Hermione didn't punish her, exactly; she just tried to break Rita of a really bad writing style [13:39] <cloudpic> An older Hermione probably wouldn't have done it... but she's still a kid here, and has been driven frantic by the woman [13:39] <JaneMarple9> me and Cloud sharing the same views again! yeah [13:39] <futureweasley> I don't think it was right, but I don't think it was "unfair" either [13:39] <Pleshette> I think it was the only way Hermione knew how to stop her, she didn't think it out [13:39] <Ringo2000> It would be the perfect punishment for a twisted mind... [13:39] <kimmparker> ummmmmmmmmmm Expie--that is one harsh way to beak someone of a bad writing habit [13:39] <jade_and_diamond_fire> talent? not so sure about that either... [13:39] <Expelliarmas> I think an older Hermione would have done more, actually [13:39] * cloudpic giggling [13:39] <nympheart> I think letting her keep her job and forcing her to correct all of her lies in writing would have been the better way to go [13:39] <kimmparker> if I keep misspelling everything what will you do to me? [13:39] <Kneazly> What would have happened if H. had revealed her as an illegal animagus? [13:39] <Moriah> I agree, nymph [13:39] <JaneMarple9> i think a older hermione would have done the same [13:39] <heathermichelle> Would anyone have believed her? [13:39] <Moriah> There has to be letters to the editor [13:39] <MrMcGonagall> Granted, she took away Rita's livelihood, but that's because the only way Rita knows how to write is to destroy people. Heaven-sent opportunity for Rita to change her ways. [13:39] <Moriah> Point out all the lies [13:40] *** muggle400 has joined #lounge [13:40] <Expelliarmas> rewrite your introduction, kimmparker, that's a definite possibility [13:40] <Greeneyes15> hey muggle400 [13:40] <jade_and_diamond_fire> hi muggle400 [13:40] <cloudpic> So, Mr. McG.... are you saying it was ethical? [13:40] <JaneMarple9> but perhaps made her into something better than a beetle [13:40] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, I think it was an appropriate penance. [13:40] <Ringo2000> Oh, I suppose she would've gone to Azkaban for a short period and it would get The Daily Prophet into alot of trouble [13:40] <Expelliarmas> It wasn't harsh at all. She didn't cause Rita any physical pain or discomfort [13:40] <Kneazly> There must have been some way--take her to McGonagall, that might have got her the proper punishment [13:40] <fawkes28> well, if Mr. M says it was ethical then it must be ethical [13:40] <cloudpic> OK... penance... but then you have a choice to "serve" or ignore. [13:40] <atschpe> Yeah, but had Hermione taken it to the authorities and got her point htrough Rita would have lsot more than her work for a year [13:41] <atschpe> She's an illegal Animagus afterall [13:41] <heathermichelle> I still rather see it as blackmail...is that ever ethical? [13:41] <Kneazly> Exactly astschpe, she got off lightly, really. [13:41] <Moriah> True, but at least it would be more than one person making the decision [13:41] <cloudpic> Good point, atschpe... she's really being kind [13:41] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, perhaps Hermione's punishment is more generous than the Wizengamot's would have been. [13:41] <Moriah> Although, the Wizarding legal system isn't great [13:41] <Expelliarmas> true, atschpe, she caught an illegal animagi who used her form to gather and then twist info [13:41] <cloudpic> Unilateral justice can be scary [13:41] <fawkes28> How long do you suppose Bagman engaged in gambling with the goblins? [13:41] <futureweasley> I just think that Hermione knows that blackmail works, and she doesn't have a hard time with "ethics" or lack thereof. That just seems to be how she rolls [13:42] <JaneMarple9> well at least Rita will not write any lies for a while [13:42] <cloudpic> too long! [13:42] <kimmparker> i think Hermoine was being realistic---i doubt anyone would have believed her to punish her [13:42] <nympheart> a very long time [13:42] <JaneMarple9> for a long time [13:42] <Kneazly> Not sure the Ministry would have accepted that she twisted information. [13:42] <Expelliarmas> I think he gamlged from the days he was a quidditch player [13:42] *** harryfreak359 has quit [Bye] [13:42] <Greeneyes15> a while [13:42] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, the tournament probably wasn't the first time. [13:42] <Expelliarmas> *gambled [13:42] <cloudpic> I'dd bet he was involved even when an active athlete... [13:42] <JaneMarple9> he's always been a gambler [13:42] <atschpe> Though on the other hand, handing her over might have lead to nothing happening at all as she would happily write the Hary bashing articles they want [13:42] <fawkes28> i think he may have been doing it for awhile - the goblins were quite mad at him [13:42] <Ringo2000> A long time - Bagman makes deals with the devil, I do not think he was scared not to... [13:42] <heathermichelle> He seemed awfully familiar with those goblins, so probably a long while [13:42] <nympheart> probably, expie [13:42] <JaneMarple9> totally totally agree with cloud and expie [13:42] <jade_and_diamond_fire> yes, he definitely seemed pretty deep into it before the tournament started [13:42] <Expelliarmas> there's something in his personality that attracts him to the risks associated with gambling [13:42] <MrMcGonagall> Easy money. [13:42] <cloudpic> Bagman definitely near the bottom of his downward spiral there... [13:43] <fawkes28> bagman should have been more careful - this might wind up hurting the order's side because of his stupidity [13:43] <Greeneyes15> well, i gotta go! just wanted to stop in really quick! i'm going shopping with my friend...it's her birthday! [13:43] <Moriah> I agree, jade [13:43] <Greeneyes15> bye [13:43] <JaneMarple9> whats great about Ludo'd name - it actually means play well in latin [13:43] <Moriah> Bye greeneyes! [13:43] <nympheart> bye greeneyes [13:43] <cloudpic> bye Greeneyes! [13:43] <Kneazly> bye greeneyes [13:43] <Expelliarmas> no, I think he liked the risk, MrM; he'd bet on anything whether money was involved or not [13:43] <JaneMarple9> and he was a great player [13:43] <fawkes28> i didnt know that Jane [13:43] <CedrellaBlack> byebye Green eyes [13:43] <MrMcGonagall> The only thing Bagman knows is sports, so it's no surprise that he's attracted to gambling. [13:43] <CedrellaBlack> true MrM [13:43] <atschpe> Bye greeneyes [13:43] <Expelliarmas> bye greeneyes [13:44] *** Greeneyes15 has quit [Bye] [13:44] <Ringo2000> bye Greneyes [13:44] <cloudpic> Perhaps he wasn't good at anything but sport... and needed to find another "talent" that was risk-laden [13:44] <fawkes28> When did Bagman start his gambling? Was he doing it as a Quidditch player? [13:44] <Kneazly> I wonder where Bagman went to try and escape the goblins. Wonder if we'll see him again [13:44] <Pleshette> Maybe it's his way of reliving some of the excitement, the rush, of his Quidditch days [13:44] <Moriah> Oooh, that's interesting, fawkes! [13:44] <JaneMarple9> yes he was gambling as a quidditch player [13:44] <cloudpic> I'm pretty sure he did... toward the end of his career [13:44] <nympheart> He's probably always gambled, since he was in school [13:44] <CedrellaBlack> I dont think so I think he started after. Kind of living vicariously through the other players [13:44] <Expelliarmas> I definitely think it went back to his days as a player [13:44] <Moriah> Do we know that? [13:44] <JaneMarple9> it was a added interest [13:44] <MrMcGonagall> Wouldn't surprise me. I can see him as a Pete rose kind of guy. [13:44] <Pleshette> I'm not so sure if he gambled while still playing [13:44] <fawkes28> it may have started in his quidditch days - he may have seen other people do it [13:44] *** MafaldaWeasley has joined #lounge [13:44] <Ringo2000> Oh yes, before, I think It could be an interesting hobby after quidditch! [13:45] <Expelliarmas> we don't know that, Moriah; total speculation [13:45] <Moriah> Ok, thanks [13:45] <cloudpic> Might be so, nympheart... fits [13:45] *** jade_and_diamond_fire has quit [Bye] [13:45] <JaneMarple9> the unfortunate thing about it is that he wasn;t a good gambler [13:45] <Ringo2000> Brb biggrin [13:45] <fawkes28> he probably wanted to make "fast" money [13:45] <MrMcGonagall> The man isn't terribly troubled by ethical considerations, so that doesn't reflect well on this particular question. [13:45] <Expelliarmas> but gambling addictions don't typically form over night [13:45] <fawkes28> maybe he started out winning and then it just went downhill [13:45] <Expelliarmas> nope, I think he enjoyed the thrill of the risk [13:45] <JaneMarple9> he didn't "bet" on the right people...until harry [13:45] *** muggle400 has quit [Bye] [13:45] <cloudpic> Enough excitement while in the game... then when lost that "thrill" needed a new one [13:45] <bemused> it tends to be a personality thing [13:45] <nympheart> I can see him placing or taking bets for Hogwarts Quidditch matches [13:46] <Expelliarmas> i can see him taking bets on his own team while he was a player to heighten the rush [13:46] <JaneMarple9> perhaps Fawkes, I think that is how a ganbler is born - he losses money and wants to win it back [13:46] <MrMcGonagall> He's hardly the type to be a hard-working Ministry donkey. I think he does love the thrill. [13:46] <JaneMarple9> and they never do! sad [13:46] <Moriah> Hm, I don't know. It's all interesting but I also think it's quite possible that gambling filled the void once he retired instead of starting before hand [13:46] <Kneazly> I wonder if that's how that friend of his father's got him to pass information--he knew about Bagman's gambling [13:46] <MrMcGonagall> True, Moriah. [13:46] <Pleshette> Yes fawkes and I think he believed he knew the game so well that he thought he could predict and win [13:46] <Moriah> You'd think he'd have had more money problems up to this point? [13:47] <nympheart> that's possible, Moriah [13:47] <Pleshette> That's what I think Moriah [13:47] <cloudpic> He's such a flibberty-gibbet... I wonder if it was entirely intentional [13:47] <JaneMarple9> ludo for me, was a grown up "Fred and George", a comic character This post has been edited by futureweasley: Mar 3 2007, 03:20 PM --------------------  Sig Image by Brian Ross (DatM) and avi by Jeffhpfan |
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Mar 3 2007, 03:23 PM
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She Who Channels Rita Skeeter Posts: 2,938 Joined: 11:40pm January 17, 2006 Location: Twiddling My Time-Turner |
[13:47] <fawkes28> If so, would his gambling habits have made him vulnerable to pressure from the Death Eaters?
[13:47] <MrMcGonagall> Quite possibly. [13:47] <JaneMarple9> yes it would [13:47] <nympheart> yes, I actually think he's that blonde DE in HBP [13:47] *** fawkes28 has quit [Bye] [13:47] <Moriah> I think he was completely fooled by the DEs [13:47] <MrMcGonagall> Although I think he was just an innocent, stupid tool. [13:47] <Expelliarmas> I think he knowingly passed on info to the Death Eaters and his gambling had something to do with it [13:47] <Pleshette> I believe so [13:47] <cloudpic> I thought so on my first read-through of the book [13:47] <Kneazly> Yes, Fawkes I think so. All your money problems will be solved... [13:47] <Moriah> Thought he was really helping an Unspeakable [13:47] <cloudpic> Not sure now [13:48] <JaneMarple9> I wasn't suprised that he was seen on trial [13:48] <atschpe> yes. that's why I beleive he already gabmled as a player [13:48] *** HPMommy has joined #lounge [13:48] <heathermichelle> I don't know. He struck me as a bit of an idiot the first time through, but that could be just an act [13:48] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [13:48] <Expelliarmas> I think he was not quite the fool he pretended to be [13:48] <JaneMarple9> he was definatly taken in by the death eaters [13:48] <CedrellaBlack> hey HP mommy! [13:48] <cloudpic> Must go for a bit... hope to be back [13:48] <atschpe> He was questioned for passing on informaiotn to them [13:48] <HPMommy> Sorry I'm so late! [13:48] *** cloudpic has quit [Bye] [13:48] <Kneazly> Hi HP Mommy [13:48] <CedrellaBlack> byebye cp [13:48] <CedrellaBlack> cp* [13:48] <Moriah> Bye cloudpic! [13:48] *** bemused has quit [Bye] [13:48] *** bemused has joined #lounge [13:48] <fawkes28> hi hpmommy smile [13:48] <MrMcGonagall> I always wonder whether Bagman is really the putz he seems to be. [13:48] <Moriah> And hi HPMommy! [13:48] <JaneMarple9> ((((Mommy)))))) good to see you! [13:48] <atschpe> Hi HPMommy [13:49] <HPMommy> I think he is MrMcGonagall! [13:49] <Moriah> It's a great act if he's not [13:49] <HPMommy> Glad to be here [13:49] <HPMommy> Too many bludgers to the head! [13:49] <nympheart> I think he's genuinely not very bright [13:49] <Moriah> lol [13:49] <fawkes28> Did Bagman really run from the goblins or could he have been running from the Death Eaters? [13:49] <MrMcGonagall> I think he was the big red herring in GoF. Don't know that he has much more of a role to play. [13:49] <Expelliarmas> I think he gets away with a lot by seeming to be a dolt; I don't think he is [13:49] <Moriah> Wouldn't he be dead by now if he were running from DEs? [13:49] <MrMcGonagall> I think he was running from the ickle goblins. [13:49] <JaneMarple9> agreed nymph - he wasn't the brightest bulb in the box [13:49] <fawkes28> I think he may have been afraid of the goblins [13:49] <heathermichelle> He didn't seem that aware of the Death Eaters. At least, not at the QWC [13:49] <fawkes28> good point, moriah [13:50] <bemused> I think the goblins were his problem [13:50] <atschpe> The Goblins. They seem scary enough if they are after you [13:50] <Kneazly> Goblins I think--but where could he go to escape? And it makes him more vulnerable to the DE's if they find him. [13:50] <JaneMarple9> he was frightend of the goblins - [13:50] <fawkes28> i dont think bagman is too smart to outwit the DEs [13:50] <Expelliarmas> I think he was running from both; to escape debt from the goblins; to escape death from the DEs [13:50] <nympheart> I think he really was running from the goblins [13:50] <MrMcGonagall> Perhaps escaping the goblins will push him back into the arms of the DEs. [13:50] <JaneMarple9> they wanted to get there money back and when goblins want something they usually get it! [13:50] <nympheart> I think that did happen to him, MrM [13:50] <Moriah> Ah, interesting, MrMcG [13:51] <bemused> It's weakness the Des could exploit, Mr M [13:51] <atschpe> Might well be MrMcG [13:51] <HPMommy> I wonder if we'll find out what they'll do to him if they catch him [13:51] <HPMommy> Sorry about the underline [13:51] <Kneazly> If the DE's do find him we may see him again in DH [13:51] <MrMcGonagall> He needs protection, and I'm sure the DEs would offer it for something in return. [13:51] <Expelliarmas> who, the goblins or the DEs? [13:51] <HPMommy> Goblins [13:51] <heathermichelle> *shudder* I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that [13:51] <HPMommy> Death Eaters would just AK him [13:51] <HPMommy> ask questions later [13:51] <Expelliarmas> yes, bagman might still have useful info [13:51] <atschpe> Or just because the DE's find him, Kneazly [13:51] <Kneazly> I think they'd still try to use him [13:51] <nympheart> right, MrM, he hit bottom when he lost the bet for the TWT [13:52] <Ringo2000> I think they would torture him into giving Ministry Secrets [13:52] <Ringo2000> and then AK him [13:52] <fawkes28> Aside from seeing the need for a few laughs in the coming months, why did Harry give Fred and George the prize money? [13:52] <Kneazly> Does Bagman know many Ministry secrets? He seems pretty clueless [13:52] <heathermichelle> Harry wasn't going to use it [13:52] <Ringo2000> Well he was the Head of a Dept. [13:52] <Ringo2000> so I guess maybe some [13:53] <atschpe> Because he saw they really meant business and had talent [13:53] <Expelliarmas> There was no way Harry was going to keep that money [13:53] <fawkes28> I think he knew how much more they could benefit from it them him [13:53] <MrMcGonagall> He was able to supply a need. [13:53] <futureweasley> agreed Expie [13:53] <fawkes28> i think he knew that Ron would never accept the money [13:53] <Expelliarmas> to him, it was blood money [13:53] <Ringo2000> Oh I think he felt if he kept it - it would be disrespect to Cedric so he gave it away [13:53] <Kneazly> And it was a way of repaying the Weasleys for their kindness [13:53] <nympheart> He said at one point he'd split his gold with the Weasley's if they'd take it, giving it to the twins may be a round-about way of doing this [13:53] *** MafaldaWeasley has quit [Bye] [13:53] <heathermichelle> I was just glad Harry insisted that they buy Ron new robes [13:53] <HPMommy> I like that response Ringo [13:53] <fawkes28> me to heather michelle [13:53] <MrMcGonagall> And the twins were cheated out of all their savings. [13:54] <MrMcGonagall> that had to make Harry feel bad [13:54] <futureweasley> it linked him too literally with the death of Cedric, and he didn't need it. However, he couldn't deny it was real money, so why not give it to a cause he really believed in? [13:54] <atschpe> true MrMcG [13:54] <Expelliarmas> he was smart to warn the twins not to tell Molly about the money [13:54] <HPMommy> I think her really believes in Fred and George [13:54] <MrMcGonagall> There are many things that it's better Molly doesn't know. [13:54] <fawkes28> me too [13:54] <Kneazly> Molly would never have let the boys accept the money. [13:54] <MrMcGonagall> LOL [13:54] <Ringo2000> ty HPMommy! [13:54] <futureweasley> I do, too, HpMommy [13:54] <fawkes28> Dumbledore is not Harry's guardian, why is it Dumbledore's decision to let Harry go to the Burrow? [13:54] <futureweasley> the twins have talent that Molly knows not [13:55] <heathermichelle> everyone respects Dumbledore [13:55] <Ringo2000> In which book? [13:55] <Expelliarmas> there's a question for which I'd like to know the answer [13:55] <nympheart> because everyone respects him, he gets the final word in everyting [13:55] <fawkes28> Dumbledore has so many protections around Harry - i think he has a right to make decisions [13:55] <Ringo2000> start of Book 4? [13:55] <Expelliarmas> at the end of GoF, Ringo [13:55] <MrMcGonagall> I think he had to say something when Molly and Arthur offered to take Harry for the summer. [13:55] <heathermichelle> he knows far more about Harry's safety than anyone else, it seems [13:55] <bemused> Perhaps because DD seems to have taken responsibility for protecting Harry [13:55] <Ringo2000> ah ok [13:55] <MrMcGonagall> DD knows about the blood protection, the Weasleys don't [13:55] <HPMommy> I think he may be right tto make him go back but why no explainatin [13:55] <HPMommy> Is it part of the protection to be secretive? [13:55] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [13:56] <fawkes28> we dont even know all the magic that is protecting harry - i think there is more so maybe he did need permission or approval [13:56] <JaneMarple9> It's the protection again [13:56] <Ringo2000> welcome back cloud! [13:56] <atschpe> Because he is the one who sealed the ancient magic protecting Harry [13:56] <cloudpic> thanks [13:56] <bemused> and he started deciding where Harry should be when there was not other guardian - he's just carrying on [13:56] <futureweasley> I think it shows the amount of respect and regard people hold for DD. He speaks, there is no question...instructions followed [13:56] <JaneMarple9> the protection on Privet drive [13:56] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think it's the sort of thing DD wants bandied about. [13:57] <MrMcGonagall> DD isn't a confiding sort of man. [13:57] <Moriah> Right, protect the protection so know one can find the weakness [13:57] <Ringo2000> People regard DD's descissions - he is of course "the best wizard there ever lived", I think that it shows how much his word is taken into account [13:57] <Pleshette> I've got to run. Bye! [13:57] <fawkes28> Hagrid says Harry did as much as James would have done and he could give Harry no better compliment than that. What does this say about James? What does this say about what Hagrid knew of James? [13:57] <Aislinn> bye pleshette [13:57] <futureweasley> bye Pleshette [13:57] <nympheart> bye pleshette [13:57] <Moriah> Bye Pleshette! [13:57] <Ringo2000> Bye Pleshette [13:57] <Kneazly> Bye Pleshette [13:57] <bemused> bye Pleshette [13:57] *** Pleshette has quit [Bye] [13:57] <JaneMarple9> hagrid must had know james pretty well [13:58] <Moriah> I think Hagrid has a biased view of a lot of people [13:58] <futureweasley> that seemed kind of like a back-handed compliment to me [13:58] <Moriah> Including James [13:58] <nympheart> agreed, Moriah [13:58] <cloudpic> Hagrid has always shown such loyalty and love for both James and Lily... they must have treated him respectfully [13:58] <Ringo2000> I dont think they new each other that well. [13:58] <Aislinn> I agree, jane. I think Hagrid knew James well, from his time in the first Order [13:58] <JaneMarple9> yes Moriah that has never occured to me before [13:58] <bemused> Maybe he said it because he knew how much that particular praise would mean to Harry [13:58] <heathermichelle> It fed into Harry's idolization of James, though [13:58] <Expelliarmas> I think he thought James to be a very brave guy who would've and did stand up to LV. He did it successfully at least three times before h edied [13:58] <CedrellaBlack> alrightyy im gonna go [13:58] <Moriah> Yeah, I agree with that too, bemused [13:58] <JaneMarple9> hagird does have "favourites" [13:58] <CedrellaBlack> byebye everyone! [13:58] <Moriah> See ya Ced! [13:58] <Aislinn> Hagrid is tremendously loyal, but the people he is loyal to, in every case I am aware of, richly deserve the loyalty he shows them. [13:58] <atschpe> I agree bemused [13:58] <cloudpic> Wouldn't Hagrid have been working at Hogwarts (asst. gamekeeper?) when James etc. were there? [13:59] <heathermichelle> which made the Snape's Worst Memory scene that much more painful, I think [13:59] <atschpe> Bye Cederella [13:59] *** CedrellaBlack has quit [Bye] [13:59] <Kneazly> Bye C [13:59] <JaneMarple9> Harry needed some reassurance that his father would had done the same [13:59] <Expelliarmas> It also comforted Harry though, heathermichelle [13:59] <fawkes28> i think that James was a great person and that we should not judge him by one memory [13:59] <Ringo2000> I only think Hagird and Harry have the relationship of the fact they don't have parents and Hagrid was like the first "wizard" Harry ever met [13:59] <heathermichelle> oh, yeah. Definitely [13:59] <cloudpic> Hagrid's been there, hasn't he, since he was expelled? So James would have known him... remember [13:59] <Aislinn> Hagrid and James would know each other from their time together in the first Order of the Phoenix [13:59] <cloudpic> the Marauders spent a lot of time wandering the grounds of the school [13:59] <Ringo2000> Yup Aislinn smile [13:59] <JaneMarple9> yes they were in the order together [14:00] <futureweasley> how do we know what James would and wouldn't have done? How does Hagrid, for that matter? It just seemed like something someone would say to make someone feel better. Lulling someone into a false sense of security about the parent they never knew just to halp them sleep better at night. [14:00] <JaneMarple9> hagrid would have known lily too [14:00] <fawkes28> i don't think Hagrid was in any way stretching the truth about James [14:00] <cloudpic> All told, Hagrid's experiences of James must have been very positive. [14:00] <bemused> Yes - and we know how much Hagrid admired James because it's come up before [14:00] <JaneMarple9> no hagrid was being quite truthful [14:00] <Aislinn> I disagree completely future [14:00] <Ringo2000> oh and Hagrid was in the Three Broomsticks and he said "I have spent half of my life chasing James and Sirius out of the Forest..." [14:00] <Expelliarmas> Hagrid was a member of the Order, fw; he would have known [14:00] <cloudpic> We judge people by our past experience of them... that would lead to Hagrid's comment [14:00] <Moriah> I think Hagrid was sincere [14:00] <JaneMarple9> he doesn;t tell lies unless he has too [14:00] <Aislinn> I think that Hagrid was complimenting Harry, based on his friendship with James in the past [14:01] <Kneazly> He had seen what James had done for the order and based his comment on that [14:01] <cloudpic> I agree, Aislinn [14:01] <Expelliarmas> Besides, Hagrid isn't the type to manipulate; he is too disingenuous [14:01] <Aislinn> When has Hagrid shown loyalty to someone that didn't deserve it? [14:01] <Ringo2000> so I think they did now each other but not the Harry ----> Hagrid relationship we have today [14:01] <fawkes28> one bad memory of James does not cut it IMO [14:01] <atschpe> so true, Expie [14:01] <heathermichelle> James was most assuredly a brave and good man...I just wish Harry had a more balanced view of him [14:01] <bemused> I think HAgrid genuinely admired Jame s- equally I think he said that because he knew it would mean a lot to Harry [14:01] <JaneMarple9> yes bemused [14:01] <MrMcGonagall> It's rather like Harry's hero-worship of his father reaches a zenith here. [14:01] <futureweasley> no, you're right fawkes, but that shows that he wasn't as saintly as he's been made out to be [14:01] <Expelliarmas> he did say it too comfort Harry; but he also meant it [14:01] <JaneMarple9> that makes sense [14:01] <cloudpic> might be that James stood up for Hagrid when James was a kid at school and Hagrid an employee on the grounds [14:02] <fawkes28> i agree with that future [14:02] <fawkes28> Why did the Slytherins stand and toast Cedric? [14:02] <Aislinn> I didn't get the sense that Hagrid was making him saintly here, just pointing out positive qualities [14:02] <Ringo2000> OO Good Q¬! [14:02] <Expelliarmas> no one can ever be as saintly as portrayed; but you can be that bad ... look at snape [14:02] <Moriah> The Slytherins don't have any problem with Ced [14:02] <Moriah> And they're not all Death Eaters' kids [14:02] <MrMcGonagall> they're not all completely devoid of social graces. [14:02] <fawkes28> i think they all realize what is coming and that they may be in that situation one day [14:02] <Expelliarmas> They were rooting for Cedric, not Harry [14:02] <cloudpic> Oh... good point Mr. McG. and it gave Harry something to cling to over that long empty summer [14:02] <nympheart> not all Slytherins are bad, Cedric's death would have shaken up a lot of people [14:02] <atschpe> I think we only see a small selection of Slytherins [14:02] <fawkes28> that is a good point, moriah [14:02] <bemused> becasue there are decent Sytherins? [14:02] *** Raldan has joined #lounge [14:02] <futureweasley> oh hush bemused! [14:02] <heathermichelle> I wasn't so much surprised that the Slytherins stood, but that Draco, Crabbe and Goyle seem to be included in that group too [14:02] <futureweasley> lol [14:02] <Moriah> hahah [14:03] <Ringo2000> I agree, numpheart. [14:03] <bemused> sory, future [14:03] <bemused> *sorry [14:03] <atschpe> why not bemused? [14:03] <MrMcGonagall> I've not met one, but I'm sure there are, bemused. [14:03] <futureweasley> lol, I'm kidding [14:03] <bemused> so am I!!! [14:03] <fawkes28> no bemused - i agree that there can be [14:03] <fawkes28> we just havent seen it yet doesnt mean it is not going to happen [14:03] <Ringo2000> I am sure you do get some "nice" Slytherins. [14:03] <Moriah> Harry filter [14:03] <futureweasley> well, I think that the Slytherins may have felt obliged to toast him to put on the appearance of feeling "sorry" [14:03] <Raldan> Hello everyone. [14:03] <Moriah> Hey Raldan! [14:03] <atschpe> Harry just focusses on those he doesn't like [14:03] <Ringo2000> Hi Raldan [14:03] <Kneazly> We're biased against Slytherins because of Draco and co. [14:03] <bemused> my head is beginning to spin - I do think there are decent Slytherins [14:04] <atschpe> Hi raldan [14:04] <heathermichelle> Hey, Slughorn's not a "bad" Slytherin [14:04] <Expelliarmas> yes, there can be ... just not snape, the anti-trio, pansy and her gang of slytherin girls; hmmm, maybe not [14:04] <Moriah> I do too, bemused [14:04] <JaneMarple9> there must be some good slytherins yea [14:04] <Aislinn> good point, heather [14:04] <nympheart> lol expie [14:04] <Moriah> Expie ... *sigh* [14:04] <fawkes28> i disagree, expie - we cant judge snape yet [14:04] <JaneMarple9> we just haven't see any yet! [14:04] <Expelliarmas> even Jo agrees on Snape ... [14:04] <fawkes28> Why didn't all the Slytherins stand and toast Harry? How is it that the sitting Slytherins remained unnoticed by the Heads of Houses? [14:04] <cloudpic> It's just hard to find good Syltherins... as Snape doesn't seem to smack down inappropriate behavior... they all take the low road [14:04] <bemused> I think you're right, fawkes [14:04] <Ringo2000> I suppose Theodre Nott (despite the Father) is a quiet one [14:04] * MrMcGonagall rolls his eyes at fawkes . . . again. [14:05] <nympheart> Slytherin-Gryffindor rivalry [14:05] <heathermichelle> Of course the DEs kids aren't going to stand [14:05] <Moriah> Is the Slytherin table in the back? So no one could see them behind others standing? [14:05] <Aislinn> It was not at all surprising that they would not toast Harry [14:05] <atschpe> Are we really sure no Heads noticed? [14:05] <fawkes28> Malfoy would probably curse them if any of them stood up [14:05] <Kneazly> Wasn't it risky for them not to stand? [14:05] <atschpe> Just because Harry doesn't see a reaction doesn't mean they didn't see it [14:05] <bemused> We don't actually know that it was unnoticed - maybe it just wasn't the moment to pick them up on it [14:05] <Expelliarmas> no, it's not just the rivalry; how many of those slytherin kids who sat are kids of DEs? [14:05] <JaneMarple9> while snape....I couldn't possibly comment! [14:05] <JaneMarple9> the teachers can't force the slytherins to be respectable [14:05] <fawkes28> well, they really dont have to stand if they dont want to [14:05] <Ringo2000> Ya Atschpe! They would be a bit saddned (perhaps crying) over the death of Cedric [14:05] <Moriah> We probably are sure, but could there have been some Slytherins standing? [14:05] <nympheart> I'm sure the Heads noticed, but decided this wasn't the time or place to try to solve the problem, or maybe they just have given up trying [14:05] <Aislinn> They were probably feeling like it wasn't a risk, now that "their" side is coming back into power [14:05] <cloudpic> Not if Lord Voldemort were back... gave them the confidance to be defiant even to Dumbledore [14:05] <futureweasley> I'm not sure how the sitting Slytherins remained unnoticed...probably because there were enough Slytherins standing to make up for the ones who weren't from the staff table's prospective [14:05] <heathermichelle> Do you think the Heads of Houses noticed, but just allowed the students to make their own decision on toasting Harry? [14:06] <JaneMarple9> make them stand and toast ced's death [14:06] <cloudpic> It's all about their choices... [14:06] <Aislinn> that's probably true future [14:06] <Kneazly> Yes, it's hard to believe they weren't noticed, but you can't force people to show respect. [14:06] <Moriah> Ahh, nice heather and cloudpic [14:06] <fawkes28> really - people dont have to stand up just because everyone else is doing it [14:06] <Ringo2000> I dont think its the right time to be barking at Slytherins for not clapping [14:06] <Expelliarmas> Dumbledore would never force the slytherins to stand; but they sure did seem to miss the point of his speech if they sat, didn't they? [14:06] <cloudpic> I'd rather know where I stand with people... [14:06] <JaneMarple9> the head of houses probably disapproved of the slyrherins not being respectable [14:06] <Expelliarmas> nice pun, cloudpic [14:06] <cloudpic> hee hee [14:06] <futureweasley> me too cloudpic, seriously [14:06] <Aislinn> yes they did, expie [14:06] <JaneMarple9> and the only person who could make them behave was snape [14:07] <heathermichelle> Exactly. Doesn't do much for school unity [14:07] <Ringo2000> Cedric had died so I dont think it was the right moment [14:07] <fawkes28> Do you think Snape stood when Dumbledore toasted Harry? If not, why not? If so, then why? [14:07] <Ringo2000> He's a Slyth [14:07] <Aislinn> He probably did, but quite grudgingly. [14:07] <cloudpic> I think he did. What I don't know is why. [14:07] <futureweasley> I think he likely did stand [14:07] <Moriah> I think he probably did no matter what side he was on [14:07] <atschpe> I think Harry would have noted this if he didn't [14:07] <nympheart> he may have for appearances, wearing his usual snear [14:07] <MrMcGonagall> If he did, he didn't mean it. [14:07] <futureweasley> right Aislinn...I completely agree [14:07] <Kneazly> He must have, or Harry would have commented. Unless Harry didn't look up so we don't know. [14:07] <Moriah> Or should I say, is on [14:07] <JaneMarple9> snape was still "apparently" on dumbles side [14:07] <Ringo2000> It would be weird from a slyths point of view to stand and clap [14:07] <fawkes28> i think that he did because he is DD's man through and through [14:07] <Expelliarmas> I think he stood ... to continue his role of uncertainty [14:07] <JaneMarple9> he didn't go and join the de's [14:07] <futureweasley> DD's man...pfffft [14:07] <Aislinn> He would have done so, just because he would see it as the expected action in the circumstances [14:07] * fawkes28 refuses to duck because she is right [14:08] <Ringo2000> I think we had three slow loooooooong claps [14:08] <Moriah> lol, I agree with you fawkes [14:08] <Ringo2000> and that was it [14:08] <fawkes28> thanks, moriah [14:08] <cloudpic> LOL Ringo... that sounds right [14:08] <Aislinn> he is in his role of double agent, and has to keep up the appearance of being Dumbledore's man [14:08] <bemused> I would think he did - and yes, fawkes, I second that!! [14:08] <Moriah> But I don't think him standing proves our point, sadly [14:08] <heathermichelle> lol, me too, fawkes [14:08] <JaneMarple9> he wanted to stay near dumble - but he probably did it relucantly [14:08] <Ringo2000> hehehhe biggrin [14:08] <JaneMarple9> ...clap........clap........clap......the end! [14:08] <Ringo2000> yup [14:08] <heathermichelle> but even if all the students didn't stand, it was important for the teachers to appear united [14:08] <bemused> but he might scowl, just to keep up appearances [14:08] <Aislinn> he has demonstrated through overt actions, that he is NOT DD's man, through and through, fawkes [14:08] <fawkes28> siriusly - he would have stood because dumbledore was there - not for harry but for DD yes [14:09] <MrMcGonagall> It was probably one of those polite, noiseless little claps. [14:09] <nympheart> true, heather [14:09] <futureweasley> I agree Moriah, standing or seated, he's still a greasy git [14:09] <Expelliarmas> no, he is snape's man through and through [14:09] <Ringo2000> hahah dd's little two finger clap - always makes me laugh [14:09] <Aislinn> look at his actions in PoA [14:09] <nympheart> golf clap MrM? [14:09] <HPMommy> LOL [14:09] <JaneMarple9> he siriusly did not want to applaud Dumble! [14:09] <Expelliarmas> kind of like the frufru air kisses ... [14:09] <Moriah> Aislinn, I think it would be hard at this point to find truly convincing evidence one way or the other [14:10] * fawkes28 tells the snape is good people to just ignore those other crazy ones [14:10] <JaneMarple9> but he didn't have much choice [14:10] * Ringo2000 hides Snape is Evil sign under cloak [14:10] <atschpe> lol Fawkes [14:10] <Moriah> hahah [14:10] <Aislinn> snape demonstrated in the past that he does not do stuff just because DD wants him to, but I think that in this instance he would have stood, just to maintain his cover [14:10] <Ringo2000> hmmm [14:10] <fawkes28> We are moving on to OotP! [14:10] <fawkes28> Trust, loyalty, and betrayal wind, entwine and diverge within OOTP. How do Dumbledore and Harry trust each other? [14:10] * JaneMarple9 still can't decide if snape is good or bad. he will have to do a lot of things to redeem himself in book 7 [14:11] <JaneMarple9> w00t2 [14:11] <futureweasley> in every way [14:11] <Aislinn> but there is NO evidence that it would be due to loyalty to DD, as he has shown actions against that previously, in PoA [14:11] <nympheart> Harry trusts DD, but is irritated and confused by being ignored [14:11] <JaneMarple9> they hardly speak sad [14:11] <Ringo2000> turn turn turn . . [14:11] <MrMcGonagall> harry is frustrated by DD's reticence [14:11] <futureweasley> yes MrMcG [14:11] <heathermichelle> I would say that DD and Harry trust each other, but DD's actions seem to imply he doesn't trust Harry [14:11] <Moriah> Ah, I see what you are saying now, Aislinn [14:11] <JaneMarple9> couldn't have pit it better Mr McGonagall! [14:11] <JaneMarple9> put* too [14:11] <heathermichelle> so Harry begins to not trust DD entirely...it's a vicious cycle [14:12] <Moriah> I do think they have complete trust but for some reason, DD makes the mistake to underestimate what Harry can handle [14:12] <fawkes28> I think any relationship takes time to be able to trust so deeply [14:12] <Aislinn> It is quite natural that harry would be frustrated and confused by Dumbledore's actions in OotP [14:12] <bemused> Dumbledore trust Harry in every sense except in the handing on of information [14:12] *** kimmparker has quit [Bye] [14:12] <MrMcGonagall> I agree, Aislinn. [14:12] <Raldan> Harry is learning to trust... when circumstances tell him otherwise... must be difficult [14:12] <fawkes28> I also think that Harry and DD needed to go through this rocky point in their friendship in order for them to build such a strong relationship [14:12] <Aislinn> He is seemingly ignored and avoided, and DD admits at the end he was doing this. [14:12] <futureweasley> DD was between a rock and a hard place [14:12] <JaneMarple9> yes future [14:13] <atschpe> It's because of the their trust being put to the test in this book that they develop such a close relationship in HBP [14:13] <bemused> Harry trusts Dumbledore but isn't prepared to follow when he doesn't understand [14:13] <Raldan> Yeah, between Violdy and the MoM [14:13] <Aislinn> Since Harry was feelingn so vulnerable at this stage, having just lived through the trauma of the end of GoF, it would leave him confused and unsure of his relationship with DD [14:13] <futureweasley> he couldn't tell Harry why, so he left Harry to his own devices (which, knowing teenage boys, is a dangerous place to leave them) [14:13] <Kneazly> Yes Bemused. It puts a strain between them [14:13] <nympheart> yes, future, but I still think he handled the situation the wrong way and I think he should have known Harry better than to take that route [14:13] <bemused> That's true, aislinn [14:13] *** Ringo2000 left #lounge [] [14:13] <futureweasley> I agree nympheart [14:13] <Aislinn> DD, on the other hand, seems to be acting out of his view of how best to protect Harry's safety, if not psychic well-being, in the moment [14:13] <heathermichelle> I agree, nympheart. There had to be a better way [14:13] <futureweasley> it was handled badly all around [14:14] <bemused> At the start of OotP Harry needs far more overt support than he is given [14:14] <Kneazly> I remember the first time I read it being frustrated myself by DD, as he's always been so honest behfore [14:14] *** Ringo2000 has joined #lounge [14:14] <Ringo2000> Hey! This post has been edited by futureweasley: Mar 3 2007, 03:23 PM |
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Mar 3 2007, 03:27 PM
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She Who Channels Rita Skeeter Posts: 2,938 Joined: 11:40pm January 17, 2006 Location: Twiddling My Time-Turner |
[14:14] <fawkes28> By not telling Harry of the Prophecy sooner, did Dumbledore betray Harry's trust?
[14:14] <Aislinn> No [14:14] <Ringo2000> sorry about that [14:14] <nympheart> Harry says no [14:14] <futureweasley> I don't think it's a matter of betraying trust [14:14] <Moriah> Hm, perhaps inedvertantly [14:14] <bemused> I don't think it's a betrayal of trust [14:14] <heathermichelle> I don't think it betrayed his trust, but it certainly made things more difficult [14:14] <MrMcGonagall> Didn't betray his trust, but seriously underestimted him. [14:14] <JaneMarple9> there friendship never was so strong, harry and dumble, after he pratically ignored him [14:14] <fawkes28> i am sure at the moment it did - as we saw with caps lock harry [14:14] <cloudpic> I thought about that... but I think he was just doing the best he could at the time.. [14:14] <bemused> but it might be a misreading of character [14:15] <Kneazly> No. It's like a parent-child thing--there are things a parent chooses not to tell a child until they judge them capable. [14:15] <bemused> .. or at least, of the ability to understand [14:15] <futureweasley> it's a matter of preparedness and information that could have been useful before [14:15] <JaneMarple9> i think dumble should have told him sooner about the phropercy [14:15] <cloudpic> It emphasizes that no one is "all-knowing" here... you just have to take all the issues into consideration and make your best call [14:15] <heathermichelle> yeah, I definitely don't think that Harry needed to know at age 11 [14:15] <cloudpic> In retrospect, I think Dumbledore would agree, Jane... but he didn't realize that until it was too late [14:15] <Moriah> I am surprised that DD didn't tell him immediately after GoF but he did worry that LV would be able to glean information from DD through Harry [14:16] <JaneMarple9> then again harry had just seen ced die [14:16] <cloudpic> There was also the fact that he knew Harry had to get through part of the summer in isolation at the Dursleys... [14:16] <nympheart> I think that would have been preferable, Moriah [14:16] <Kneazly> Dumbledore's reasons were good, but he should have told Harry why he wasn't telling him. Harry would have accepted that. [14:16] <cloudpic> only so much bad stuff to dwell on [14:16] <Aislinn> I don't think it had to do with trust, I think it had to do with a feeling of protectiveness, of not wanting to burden Harry more than he was already burdened, until absolutely necessary [14:16] <bemused> yes, that's the tricky bit, Moriah - the link between Harry and LV makes any informaition he has vulnerable [14:16] <HPMommy> there is so much that DD should have told Harry [14:16] <nympheart> LV seemed to think Harry knew about the existance of a prophecy [14:16] <cloudpic> Yes, Aislinn... that's it... always a hard call [14:16] <HPMommy> We definitely would have seen much less angst [14:16] <JaneMarple9> if dumble could had told harry about it during the summer, while he was at the dursleys [14:16] <Aislinn> very true, bemused [14:17] <atschpe> Yes cloudpic … plus knowing the boy enough that he knew Harry would want to find out what's going on [14:17] <cloudpic> Dumbledore was parenting here... and that's a tough job! [14:17] <Raldan> I agree, kneeazly, but Hary curiosity would have made ity hard for him to remain inactive. [14:17] <cloudpic> biab [14:17] *** cloudpic has quit [Bye] [14:17] <JaneMarple9> i thought dumble was extremely unfairy about the prophercy [14:17] <Aislinn> unfair? [14:17] <Kneazly> True, Raldan. [14:17] <Aislinn> how was he unfair? [14:17] <Moriah> In what way? [14:17] <JaneMarple9> he should had told harry sooner [14:17] <JaneMarple9> to prepare him [14:17] <fawkes28> he did it because he loved harry - he was trying to keep him happy [14:18] <Moriah> Ah, yeah, probably so. But I agree that he had his reasons [14:18] <JaneMarple9> before he went to hogwarts...after the hearing [14:18] <HPMommy> I hate to run... [14:18] <Moriah> And to protect the prophecy from LV [14:18] <Moriah> Later HPMommy! [14:18] <HPMommy> be back soon [14:18] *** HPMommy left #lounge [] [14:18] <nympheart> bye HPMommy [14:18] <atschpe> Bye HPMOmmy [14:18] <JaneMarple9> trying to keep him happy - but he was also totally ignoring harry [14:18] <heathermichelle> the thing about the prophecy, though...would knowing what it said actually help LV in any way? [14:18] *** Poet has joined #lounge [14:18] <Moriah> Well, he had to ignore Harry to protect them all from Harry's connection to LV [14:19] *** mode/#lounge [+o Poet] by Snuffles [14:19] <JaneMarple9> hi poet smile [14:19] <Moriah> I don't think it would help, heather [14:19] <fawkes28> How do Dumbledore and Snape trust each other? [14:19] <Moriah> But I do think that keeping LV focused on the Prophecy was a good idea [14:19] <MrMcGonagall> Foolishly [14:19] <nympheart> in DD's case, blindly [14:19] <Aislinn> Agreed Moriah [14:19] <Moriah> *sigh* [14:19] <Moriah> lol [14:19] <Poet> They trust each other because they need each other, I think [14:19] * fawkes28 rolls her eyes at Mr. M [14:19] <Raldan> We need to trust DD as well, that he knows more about Voldys capabilities than we do. That puts us in the same place as Harry (thats why I love these books) [14:19] <Expelliarmas> do they? it seems DD does most of the trusting [14:19] <JaneMarple9> dumble and snape have a strange relationship - teacher to teacher one [14:19] <Aislinn> we don't really know if they trust each other [14:19] <MrMcGonagall> DD always believes the best about people. Sadly, in this case he was obviously mistaken. [14:19] <Expelliarmas> Snape does a lot of using in my opinion [14:20] <bemused> that's because we never see Snape's point of view, Expie [14:20] <fawkes28> ok - I can agree with that Aislinn [14:20] <Moriah> There are some that DD doesn't trust and never has [14:20] <Aislinn> DD seems to trust snape, and Snape trusts DD to act the way that DD acts [14:20] *** lilinferi has joined #lounge [14:20] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, I think Snape sees the limits of DD's trust and feels it keenly. [14:20] <bemused> If he turned spy before LV fell, he must have put his life in DDs hands [14:20] <Expelliarmas> no, but we do see Snape's actions; as we do DD's [14:20] <futureweasley> hi lilinferi [14:20] <JaneMarple9> i am sure that dumble knew that snape was in commication wih voldie [14:20] <heathermichelle> I think DD was honest when he said he trusts Snape completely [14:20] <Poet> And I think that DD hopes that by showing people kindness and trust that it will help protect him from being turned against [14:20] <heathermichelle> there's obviously something he knows about Snape that we (and Harry) don't [14:20] <bemused> I think that's true, Poet [14:20] <fawkes28> as a whole we dont know how their relationship is - we have a lot of factors missing [14:20] <futureweasley> I think that DD trusts Snape blindly, and Snape trusts DD to trust him blindly [14:20] <MrMcGonagall> True, fawkes. [14:21] <nympheart> I agree, fw [14:21] <Expelliarmas> excellent point, fw [14:21] <Aislinn> right, fawkes - we need to learn why DD chose to trust Snape [14:21] <MrMcGonagall> I agree completely, fw [14:21] <Aislinn> right future [14:21] <Moriah> I can't wait to learn more, fawkes! [14:21] <bemused> We still don't know why DD trusted so completely - but we know he was no fool [14:21] <fawkes28> me too, moriah! [14:21] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think Snape has a lot of trust in Dd. [14:21] <heathermichelle> he didn't trust Tom Riddle, though he had fooled everyone else [14:21] <Moriah> Uh-oh ... I'm lagging. Will try to come right back in [14:21] <bemused> He didn't trust Tom Riddle [14:21] <atschpe> I think Snape revealing his darkmark to Fudge strengthened the trust DD had in him [14:21] <Kneazly> Yes Poet--by being trusted you can learn to be trustworthy. Let's hope! [14:21] <heathermichelle> why would he trust Snape blindly? [14:21] *** Moriah has quit [Bye] [14:22] <Aislinn> no fool,, but a man who was willing to give people second chances and think the best of them [14:22] *** Moriah has joined #lounge [14:22] <bemused> We don't know it was blind trust until we know the reason, heather [14:22] <Kneazly> DD sometimes lets his emotions rule his head, but I don't think he'd trust without reason [14:22] <atschpe> exactly bemused [14:22] <Poet> I think some of the events in the early years - surrounding the prophecy and Harry's birth are the reason DD trusted him [14:22] <heathermichelle> exactly. Which is why I'm rather in the Snape is good camp...and in the minority it seems, lol [14:22] <futureweasley> he's already given Snape a "get out of jail free" card, quite literally. And I don't think that DD thinks Snape is foolish enough to try to pull the wool over his eyes twice [14:22] <fawkes28> and DD does admit that he makes mistakes and it is possible that their trust is not what it seems - with Jo you never know [14:22] <Poet> I agree futureweasley [14:23] <Moriah> The minority today, heather [14:23] <Moriah> There are plenty of us in that camp [14:23] <MrMcGonagall> I think DD had excellent reasons to trust Snape's conversion. [14:23] <lilinferi> i'm more in the snape is good camp too... [14:23] <MrMcGonagall> I won't say it's wrong to trust people, but DD made an error. [14:23] <heathermichelle> It's all just so complicated... [14:23] <futureweasley> there are surely a lot of Snapeteers out there...no worries. I just happen to not be one of them [14:23] <Moriah> Oh, you don't know yet, MrMcG [14:23] <Moriah>  [14:23] <lilinferi> i think lily has a good part to play in the reason why DD trusts snape so much [14:23] <fawkes28> which is what makes it great [14:23] <Kneazly> If he had excellent reasons, and Snape is bad, then what would push him back over to LV? [14:24] <fawkes28> Is Snape a truly trusted member of the Order? [14:24] <Moriah> Exactly! [14:24] <heathermichelle> and I'm half-afraid one of the loose ends Jo leaves for us will be Snape's loyalty [14:24] <MrMcGonagall> I have my guesses, Moriah! smile [14:24] <Kneazly> Iff DD had good reasons, I mean [14:24] <nympheart> he shouldn't be [14:24] <Moriah> hehe [14:24] <bemused> Yes! [14:24] <Moriah> I believe so [14:24] <atschpe> At that point in time – yes [14:24] <bemused> by DD [14:24] <fawkes28> well - in OotP he was but now some people in here seem to think not [14:24] <MrMcGonagall> People only seem to trust him because DD does. [14:24] <futureweasley> I don't think so...I don't think that every member in the Order trusts that he is truly on their side [14:24] <Poet> He was never truly trusted by everyone, but even people like Lupin seemed to support him (at least most of the first 6 books) [14:24] <Kneazly> I think the Order trusted him, but only because DD does and they accept DD's word. [14:24] <fawkes28> right and honestly their trust of him flew out the window when he killed DD [14:24] <futureweasley> but they all respect DD, so they obey [14:24] <MrMcGonagall> Whenever Harry asks someone, they always say, "Well, DD does." [14:24] <futureweasley> EXACTLY MrMcG [14:25] <bemused> the others seemed to have reservations - which didn't come out until HBP [14:25] <Aislinn> I don't think Snape was trusted by anyone, really, except by DD. Others gave him a small benefit of the doubt, since they trusted DD [14:25] <nympheart> true, MrM and the fact that people will just cover their eyes and listen to DD really annoys me [14:25] <Kneazly> They might not trust him with personal stuff, but with order stuff they do [14:25] <MrMcGonagall> I agree, Aislinn. [14:25] <Raldan> DD's trust caries a lot of weight with me. [14:25] <Moriah> I've got to run ... it's been a great chat. See y'all in the Lily and Stag! Yay!! [14:25] <fawkes28> bye moriah [14:25] <Aislinn> bye Moria [14:25] <Aislinn> h [14:25] <Raldan> Bye Moriah [14:25] <nympheart> see ya Moriah [14:25] <Kneazly> bye moriah [14:25] <lilinferi> bye! [14:25] <bemused> bye Moriah [14:25] <MrMcGonagall> DD's trust used to carry a lot of weight with me. [14:25] *** Moriah has quit [Bye] [14:25] <atschpe> Bye Mo [14:25] <Expelliarmas> bye Mo [14:25] <Poet> I agree Kneazly. They did draw a line between his work for the Order and his personal smaller actions [14:26] <fawkes28> i think other people trusted Snape too but they were reassured by DD [14:26] <bemused> Agree, fawkes [14:26] <Aislinn> they way they talked about him at the end of HBP made me think that they didn't really trust him. [14:26] <atschpe> I agree too, fawkes [14:26] <Aislinn> McGonagall had obviously questioned DD about it more than once [14:27] <Expelliarmas> I think Snape was tolerated; he had a DD pass [14:27] <atschpe> Only through DD's trust [14:27] <lilinferi> they seemed to go back on their 'trust' for snape at the end of HBP [14:27] <MrMcGonagall> Bingo [14:27] <Poet> Yeah Aislinn . I got the impression that they weren't totally dissing him either, but perhaps that was because they were in shock. [14:27] <Kneazly> I got the impression at the end of HBP that they were surprised, and had trusted him. [14:27] <Expelliarmas> they all wondered about DD's trust [14:27] *** MrMcGonagall has quit [Bye] [14:27] <bemused> Mm - that's true, Aislinn, but in those circumstances their jusdgement of the past would be affected [14:27] *** MrMcGonagall has joined #lounge [14:27] <Raldan> It's hard to believe that DD would make a mistake this enormous, when he knew those around him questioned his wisdom in this area. [14:27] <fawkes28> i agree, raldan [14:27] <bemused> Whena relationship ends, people always remember the worst bits [14:27] <Aislinn> McGonagall was making a statement of past events, not changing something [14:27] <Expelliarmas> I don't hink DD took counsel on this matter, Raldan [14:27] <heathermichelle> regardless of what side he's on, Snape was obviously feeding them enough information to at least make people trust him [14:27] <fawkes28> Is it possible to be loyal without having trust? [14:28] <nympheart> absolutely [14:28] <Expelliarmas> yes [14:28] <MrMcGonagall> yes [14:28] <nympheart> Sirius [14:28] <Raldan> yes [14:28] <Poet> Sure, I think being loyal is what the person does, and having trust is how others feel about the person. [14:28] <Aislinn> sure [14:28] <bemused> Do you mean, being trusted or trusting? [14:28] <atschpe> Looking at the DEs definitely [14:28] <futureweasley> absolutely yes [14:28] <JaneMarple9> perhaps yes [14:29] <futureweasley> you can be loyal but not be trusted to be so [14:29] <lilinferi> don't you earn trust by being loyal...? [14:29] <futureweasley> yes lilinferi [14:29] <futureweasley> I agree with that [14:29] <Aislinn> being loyal is a choice of way to act, being trusted is the other person's choice [14:29] <Expelliarmas> the Death Eaters don't trust each other any further than they can throw each other; but they are loyal to their cause (or else) [14:29] <Poet> It's hard to ever totally trust someone you know is a double spy, but the spy is likely loyal to someone - the bad side, the good side, or neither [14:29] <nympheart> Remus's loyalty to the Order was questioned, but he follows DD without wavering [14:29] <Aislinn> and being loyal, even if unsure of the other person is showing a leap of faith [14:29] <Raldan> If your loyalty is based on your own ethics, giving your word, sometimes trust has to take a second seat. [14:29] <futureweasley> exactly Aislinn...they are two individual actions...done by different parties [14:30] <Poet> I like the way you put that Raldan [14:31] <fawkes28> Betrayal is a huge theme in OOTP: Kreacher to Sirius; Marietta Edgecombe to the DA; Percy to the Weasleys; the MoM to the Wizarding Community; Fudge to Dumbledore. Is it possible to betray without breaching trust or loyalty? [14:31] *** shbrenner has joined #lounge [14:31] *** shbrenner has quit [Bye] [14:31] <lilinferi> tricky [14:31] <nympheart> not that I can think of [14:31] <heathermichelle> I really don't think so [14:31] <Poet> Hmmm. People can catch others off-guard in terms of trust. [14:31] <bemused> No - betrayal is a breach of loyalty [14:31] <Kneazly> I don't see how. [14:31] <Aislinn> I think betrayal is an act that breaches trust [14:31] <JaneMarple9> yes bemused [14:31] <MrMcGonagall> To breach it without the other person knowing? yes. Ethically, no. [14:31] <bemused> and trust [14:31] <atschpe> don't think so either [14:32] <Expelliarmas> a betrayal is more than an innocent accident [14:32] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [14:32] <bemused> betrayal is a choice you make [14:32] <Kneazly> It isn't a betrayal if you don't have the loyalty/trust first [14:32] <Expelliarmas> it implies knowledge of the action [14:32] <Raldan> Hard to imagine a way fir this to happen [14:32] <futureweasley> well, you can betray someone without their knowledge...hence not breaching the trust part of the equation [14:32] <Aislinn> can you expand on that , Mr M? [14:32] <fawkes28> exactly expie [14:32] <Poet> I think you can be loyal and accidentally betray, but unless you correct it immediately, the loyalty is out the window [14:32] <nympheart> I think you can betray without breaching trust (Snape and the UV comes to mind) but not loyalty [14:32] <Aislinn> you have breached their trust, whether they know of it or not [14:33] <Kneazly> I agree Aislinn [14:33] <cloudpic> but you don't lose their trust if they're kept in the dark [14:33] <Poet> right [14:33] <cloudpic> semantics [14:33] <MrMcGonagall> I mean it's possible that Marietta could have breached trust without anyone ever being the wiser. It's still betrayal and breach of trust, but the other person may never know it. [14:33] <fawkes28> true - poet [14:33] <Expelliarmas> you breach the trust by the betrayal; regardless of whether the person knows of the betrayal [14:33] <Raldan> Yeah, deliberate betrayal would seem to violate the others trust. [14:33] <Aislinn> they may continue to falsely trust you, but you are not trustworthy if you betray the other party [14:33] <bemused> Yes - if you trust a friend to keep a secret and they don't they've betrayed you whether you know about it or not [14:34] <nympheart> It depends on who's trusting you and how forgiving they are, though [14:34] <Aislinn> exactly bemused [14:34] <cloudpic> Yes you have [14:34] <Kneazly> And you will eventually find out,and the betrayal will be all the worse [14:34] <MrMcGonagall> People can foolishly trust even when they've already been betrayed. *cough*Snape*cough* [14:34] <cloudpic> alas, they continue to trust...making the potential betrayal worse [14:34] <atschpe> Need a cough dorp MrMcG ;) [14:34] <Aislinn> yes, in some ways it is even worse to betray behind someone's back, and maintain the lie of trust to their face [14:34] <fawkes28> no coughing in here [14:34] <bemused> People can also trust against all the odds and be proved right in the end *splutter* [14:35] * Poet makes some herbal tea for those with betrayed sore throats [14:35] <futureweasley> or get their hearts broken, it cuts both ways [14:35] <fawkes28> lol [14:35] <Expelliarmas> once you betray, though, there is no more trust or loyalty. if the relationship is maintained, then it's based on a lie [14:35] <atschpe> lol POet [14:35] <bemused> Absolutely, Aislinn [14:35] <MrMcGonagall> True, Expie. [14:35] <Aislinn> exactly expie [14:35] * nympheart will take some of that tea [14:35] <fawkes28> What propelled Kreacher's betrayal of Sirius? [14:35] <Kneazly> Continuing to trust when you know you've been betrayed is stupid, but if the betrayl is regretted and sincerley apologized for, then trust is possible again [14:35] <atschpe> Agreed Expie [14:35] <MrMcGonagall> Kreacher's loyalty was mere servitude. [14:36] <cloudpic> Kreacher saw the effect Sirius's "betrayal" of the family's values had on his "Mistress" [14:36] <Aislinn> I think that Kreacher has maintained a loyalty to the twisted values of Sirius' parents [14:36] <futureweasley> DD said it was his lack of attention [14:36] <Poet> Sirius betrayed his family's ideals.. Kreacher would find it hard to be loyal to him or trust him, no matter what [14:36] <cloudpic> I think he sympathized [14:36] <bemused> He'd been treated badly too [14:36] <futureweasley> his empathy [14:36] <MrMcGonagall> poor Kreacher. So conflicted. [14:36] <heathermichelle> Kreacher had no love for his master. The only thing keeping him silent was the magic of his species that forbade him to speak [14:36] <cloudpic> If he'd been treated kindly by Sirius... he may have come around to accepting Sirius. [14:36] *** lilinferi has quit [Bye] [14:36] <Aislinn> I don't think he would have acted any better towards Sirius, even if Sirius had treated him more tolerantly [14:36] <Expelliarmas> he was loyal to the (mad) house of black; to Mrs. Black; not to sirius. he despised sirius [14:36] <cloudpic> Ironic that. [14:36] <bemused> But house elves seem unable to move fromtheir first family - except Dobby, and even he finds it hard [14:37] <MrMcGonagall> I agree Aislinn [14:37] <Kneazly> Except for Dobby, the house evles we've seen seem to be loyal to the family without considering ethics [14:37] <Poet> I agree - they never liked each other, and in this case their dislike and distrust - feds the others'. Sort of like what goes around, comes around [14:37] <cloudpic> Sirius is family. [14:37] <MrMcGonagall> some things run too deep in a house elf's nature. [14:37] <Aislinn> I disagree, cloudpic, I don't see him as changing the values that he has embraced through serving that family for so long [14:37] <Raldan> Kreacher was being loyal to his House and was totally trustworthy in that. You could trust Kreacher to behave the way he did. [14:37] <fawkes28> He had such strong ties to Mrs. Black that he felt like he was betraying her memory - he is extremely loyal [14:37] <Poet> Interesting, yeah. Kreacher was being true to his former mistress [14:37] <cloudpic> Yes, we've sure seen how hard it is for Winky to accept a change of circumstances. [14:37] <Aislinn> right, fawkes [14:37] <JaneMarple9> yes poet [14:37] <Aislinn> exactly cloudpic [14:37] <cloudpic> Not very adaptable, house-elves [14:38] <JaneMarple9> kreacher disliked sirius a lot [14:38] <Raldan> But predictable [14:38] <MrMcGonagall> He was selectively loyal to the house he served. [14:38] *** dumbleydore18 has joined #lounge [14:38] <bemused> Yes - I don't think kinder treatment would have changed him, but it would still have been ncie to see [14:38] <heathermichelle> certainly not about finding loopholes [14:38] <heathermichelle> *above [14:38] <bemused> *nice [14:38] <Expelliarmas> heya, dd18 [14:38] <JaneMarple9> nicely said McGonagall! [14:38] <cloudpic> It's as though Kreacher and all house-elves have clinged to what kept them safe in tough situations, that they ccna't let go. [14:38] <fawkes28> but imagine all of the terrible things that Mrs. Black said about Sirius - it's almost like she brainwashed him [14:38] <Kneazly> I don't think he was selective--he considered Black to be an outcast. After all, he was blasted off the family truee. [14:38] <atschpe> Hi dd18 [14:38] <dumbleydore18> hi [14:38] <cloudpic> *can't [14:39] <Poet> Kreacher was able to rationalize his behavior because of his dislike of Sirius. It was easy for him to pretend that he was doing as he was told - [14:39] <dumbleydore18> i just woke up lol [14:39] <JaneMarple9> hi dd18 [14:39] <fawkes28> What propelled Marietta's betrayal of the DA? [14:39] <bemused> fear? [14:39] <futureweasley> fear [14:39] <futureweasley> absolutely [14:39] <fawkes28> stupidity [14:39] <JaneMarple9> sory smile dumbley! [14:39] <MrMcGonagall> She was always the weak gazelle in the DA [14:39] <JaneMarple9> fear [14:39] <dumbleydore18> I need a recap of who marietta is... [14:39] <nympheart> she was afraid of being discovered with a group for which she felt no real loyalty [14:39] <JaneMarple9> she was the sneak [14:39] <MrMcGonagall> The snitch. [14:40] <cloudpic> The girl who betrayed the DA [14:40] <dumbleydore18> oh! [14:40] <JaneMarple9> nice girl biggrin [14:40] <bemused> she with the purple pimples [14:40] <cloudpic> She had had her arm twisted by Cho to come there... was never happy or comfortable. [14:40] <fawkes28> Why did Fudge betray Dumbledore? [14:40] <Kneazly> Shows that you can't be loyal without committment [14:40] <atschpe> Well, she never truly wanted to join – it was a matter of time before she slipped [14:40] <MrMcGonagall> Fudge was afraid for his positon. [14:41] <fawkes28> Fudge has a total love of power going on [14:41] <nympheart> he refused to admit the possibility of his making a mistake [14:41] <heathermichelle> Fudge knew who the better man was...and it wasn't him [14:41] <JaneMarple9> fudge never liked dumble [14:41] <cloudpic> At the time... I really thought he might be a DE... now? [14:41] <fawkes28> He wants to stay popular and will do everything and anything he can to keep it that way [14:41] <fawkes28> he is such a git [14:41] <JaneMarple9> he was jealous of dumble [14:41] <dumbleydore18> he gloats too much on his office, he forgot where his priorities lye [14:41] <Aislinn> I think DD was exactly right at the end of GoF - Fudge was too fond of the perks of his position, and did not want to have to face the hard choices that go along with admitting the truth [14:41] <bemused> He's a politician [14:41] <atschpe> It was easier to shut his eyes the nfollow DD suggestions [14:41] <heathermichelle> tyrants are most afraid of their people and that's what Fudge was turning into [14:41] <cloudpic> ooooo. bemused... the ultimate insult!! [14:41] <cloudpic> LOL [14:41] <Raldan> Hes a bureaucrat, DD didn't fit in his organizational chart [14:41] <JaneMarple9> no cloudpic, fudge is too cowardly for a death eater [14:42] <bemused> smile: [14:42] <JaneMarple9> he is weak [14:42] <Kneazly> Too worried about he "legacy"--and now it's a bad one! [14:42] <cloudpic> Power corrupts...absolute power... etc. [14:42] <Expelliarmas> DD doesn't fit in any organizational charts [14:42] <fawkes28> exactly, aislinn - Fudge chose the easy path [14:42] <cloudpic> Yes, I agree now, Jane... wasn't so sure on the first reading [14:42] <fawkes28> and he got exactly what he deserved [14:42] <JaneMarple9> yes fawkes!! [14:42] <Aislinn> yes - he does seem to go for what is easy, not what is right, almost every time [14:42] <JaneMarple9> he's a wimp! [14:43] <MrMcGonagall> Bingo, Aislinn. [14:43] <Kneazly> In HBP the little we saw of him was supporting DD/Ministry, despite being forced out of offie [14:43] <heathermichelle> Well, yeah, after being publically humilated [14:43] <fawkes28> Manipulation has been a theme throughout the first four books and Order of the Phoenix continues that trend. Do the Death Eaters consider themselves manipulated by LV? [14:43] <cloudpic> yeah.. Kneazly, that's what convinced me he was just a foolish man [14:43] <bemused> I have to go now - bye everyone, thanks for a good chat! [14:43] <dumbleydore18> yes [14:43] <cloudpic> bye, bemused [14:43] <JaneMarple9> he didn't want to deliver that message to the muggle pm [14:43] <Poet> I think they do, but they'd be hard up to admit it [14:43] <Raldan> Bye bemused [14:43] *** bemused left #lounge [] [14:44] <Kneazly> Bye bemmused [14:44] <JaneMarple9> bye bemused see you in chamber 88!! [14:44] <MrMcGonagall> I think they take pleasure in being manipulated, except for Snape, who's too clever for that sort of thing. [14:44] <cloudpic> I'm not sure... I doubt that Malfoy thinks so [14:44] <nympheart> I think most of them know it, but are in denial [14:44] <fawkes28> i think the DEs use LV almost as much as he uses them [14:44] <Aislinn> I don't know that many of them would see themselves as being manipulated [14:44] <dumbleydore18> the things that LV has them do is not out of choice on their behalf...I'm sure there is some manipulation from LV going on [14:44] <cloudpic> I think Malfoy sees his postion with LV as an opportunity [14:44] <Expelliarmas> No, they totally dig their lives [14:44] <Raldan> I think they submit to his manipulation in hope of future power [14:44] *** Ringo2000 has quit [Bye] [14:44] <heathermichelle> the more fanatic ones probably don't see it that way [14:44] <Aislinn> I agree cloudpic [14:44] <fawkes28> They use him as a family and because they want power and recognition - i think to some level they realize this too [14:44] <nympheart> I think Bella is completely unaware that she is used by LV [14:44] <cloudpic> and Crabbe and Goyle wouldn't notice if there were actual strings attached to them! [14:45] *** EmilyVizi has joined #lounge [14:45] <MrMcGonagall> The DEs are sick, sick, sick. [14:45] <nympheart> lol, true cp [14:45] <Aislinn> LOL [14:45] *** WaggaWaggaWerewolf has joined #lounge [14:45] <futureweasley> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. [14:45] <nympheart> hi www [14:45] <cloudpic> That awful scene when they crawled to him on their knees and kissed the hem of his robe, though... that's awlfu. [14:45] <Poet> I agree cloudpic. They do get something out of it usually - they get to have fun causing trouble. They're like the worst type of gang [14:45] *** EmilyVizi has quit [Bye] [14:45] <fawkes28> Does manipulation always have a negative aspect? What makes it manipulation rather than simply persuasion? [14:45] <Expelliarmas> the DEs seek to be used by LV [14:45] *** blue_dreamer has joined #lounge [14:45] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Hi, sorry for the lateness smile [14:46] <cloudpic> Fine line, that. [14:46] <Aislinn> that is an excellent question [14:46] <heathermichelle> persuasion still seems to imply choice [14:46] <JaneMarple9> hi www hi blue dreamer [14:46] <Raldan> The coersion [14:46] <blue_dreamer> hi guys, sorry I'm late, just kicked the parents out... [14:46] <MrMcGonagall> Persuasion respects a person's free will. [14:46] <Kneazly> The level of choice--you choose to follow persuasion, you don't choose [14:46] <cloudpic> Isn't it tied to intent? [14:46] <Poet> It's all about choice and giving people all the facts so they can make their own decisions [14:46] <nympheart> manipulation usually involves deception [14:46] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, nymph [14:46] <fawkes28> that is true, nymph [14:46] <cloudpic> yes, nympheart, I think so too [14:46] <Aislinn> are all of the DE's deceived , though? [14:46] <Expelliarmas> persuasion involves presenting the person with argument, choices; manipulation does not [14:46] <atschpe> agreed nymph [14:46] <Aislinn> Or do they just agree with LV's world view? [14:46] <futureweasley> sometimes, the deception behind the manipulation is necessary, though [14:46] *** shbrenner has joined #lounge [14:46] <MrMcGonagall> Some of them see the light. R.A.B., for instance. [14:46] <blue_dreamer> what groups are we all in this time, I've got mixed up? [14:47] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Persuasion all about getting someone to see why they should do or think something. Manipulation takes no account of their will [14:47] <heathermichelle> maybe it's both, aislinn [14:47] <cloudpic> No... some are "using" LV... or think they are (Malfoy) [14:47] <fawkes28> No - I think that many of them were persuaded to join the DEs [14:47] <cloudpic> and then there's Bella... [14:47] <nympheart> I think all (with the possible exception of Snape) are decived in some way [14:47] <blue_dreamer> confused.. what are we discussing? [14:47] <Expelliarmas> No, Aislinn, they are not decieved; but for each one believing they are LV's favorite [14:47] *** shbrenner has quit [Bye] [14:47] <cloudpic> She's not manipulated... she's ? [14:47] <Kneazly> I think they're DE#s by choice, but are manipulated into certain actions [14:47] <fawkes28> however, once they get into the group - he manipulates them into doing what he wants them to do [14:47] <Aislinn> I'm sure there are some that didn't bargain for all of what LV's plan involves, but I think there are others who are right there with him, like Bella and Lucius [14:47] <futureweasley> I don't think that manipulation is always a bad thing. I hate to jump ahead, but look at Harry's manipulation of Slughorn...necessary [14:47] <Poet> I think LV doesn't tell them everything. If they knew about his half-blood status or his horcruxes or the fact that Harry is prophecized to defeat him, maybe they'd have chosen to not follow him [14:47] <fawkes28> We are having a RG chat, bluedreamer and are talking about OotP now [14:47] <blue_dreamer> does he use the Imperius curse maybe? [14:48] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, it's a surprise to them that LV isn't pureblood. [14:48] <Raldan> bluedreamer, see above : fawkes28 's question [14:48] <blue_dreamer> cheers! [14:48] <MrMcGonagall> LV manipulates everything around him, or tries to. [14:48] <blue_dreamer> changing all the time... [14:48] <futureweasley> yes MrMcG [14:48] <futureweasley> to suit his own means [14:48] <cloudpic> The only way he seems to know to interact with others [14:48] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> The question which bedevils end of GOF, is why Fudge won't believe LV is back. [14:48] <Raldan> yep... hard to keep up smile [14:48] <MrMcGonagall> He's a user. [14:48] <blue_dreamer> maybe they've been brainwashed into worshipping him, like [14:48] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Yes he is. [14:48] <Poet> If he uses the Imperius on them, I don't think they are official DE or actual servants. I do wonder if that Dark Mark brand causes them to be tied in a magical servitude to him [14:49] <Aislinn> right, Poet [14:49] <blue_dreamer> can he change their minds, thoughs, like using occlumency or similar? [14:49] <dumbleydore18> i like that idea poet [14:49] <nympheart> I don't think LV uses Imperius, I think he'd rather have the pleasure of knowing that they do his bidding on their own, even though he misleads them to do it [14:49] <Raldan> I think the danger of allying oneself to evil, leads to loss of personal freedom [14:49] <heathermichelle> I don't think LV would want the upkeep of having dozens of people under Imperius [14:49] * cloudpic must go early... have fun all, great chat! [14:50] <Poet> And the threat of crucius or death is enough to keep some DE in line [14:50] *** cloudpic has quit [Bye] [14:50] <nympheart> bye cp [14:50] <Raldan> bye cloudpic [14:50] <blue_dreamer> bye [14:50] <MrMcGonagall> One bad choice to become a DE, and you may as well kiss your free will goodbye. [14:50] <fawkes28> Does Dolores Umbridge think she is manipulating Fudge or the Ministry for that matter? [14:50] <Poet> I totally agree MrMcGonagall and Raldan [14:50] <blue_dreamer> good idea fawkes28 [14:50] <heathermichelle> She seems to think she has an awful lot of power [14:50] <nympheart> I think so, the MoM didn't know about the dementors [14:50] <MrMcGonagall> No, I think she sees herself as the most loyal servant of His Highness Fudge. [14:50] <blue_dreamer> that she actually doesn't have... [14:50] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> To use a real life example, LV like Caesar Augustus, claiming to rule through influence rather than by force [14:50] <Poet> Definitely. She did things without their knowledge to cause certain events to happen [14:51] <fawkes28> I think her motives are completely selfish because she wants to move up in the ministry [14:51] <Aislinn> I'm not sure she thinks about her own actions in terms of manipulation [14:51] <Kneazly> I think she thinks she's doing Fudge's bidding, but without him haveing to let himself in for criticism [14:51] <futureweasley> it's a willing partnership of manipulation and deception and convenience [14:51] <Aislinn> She just thinks that she knows best, and goes about doing it [14:51] <Raldan> Wow, she is a piece of work (DU) [14:51] <blue_dreamer> they're all the politician type... do the public trust them? [14:51] <MrMcGonagall> She's like one of the dangerous, overzealous Nazi underlings. [14:51] <atschpe> I'm off to complete some work [14:51] <Poet> I think she was rather pleased with herself about it as well (sending dementors after Harry to take care of him) [14:51] <atschpe> Bye everyone [14:51] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M [14:51] <fawkes28> ye atschpe [14:51] <Aislinn> bye atschpe [14:51] <blue_dreamer> she wants to rule the world too [14:51] <Raldan> She enjoys her work a little too much [14:51] <dumbleydore18> as sad as this may sound, I don't think so. I think she is on the same page as Fudge, perhaps Fudge is the one doing the manipulation? I don't see her manipulating anyone. I see her on the same page. [14:51] *** atschpe left #lounge [] [14:52] <JaneMarple9> shes a female snape!! [14:52] <blue_dreamer> ha! [14:52] <Poet> mm [14:52] <nympheart> lol, Jane, Snape's smarter [14:52] <heathermichelle> I don't know. She enjoyed her little power trip at Hogwarts an awful lot [14:52] <Raldan> Delores Umbridge is a very bad woman [14:52] <Expelliarmas> well, she's not as greasy, Jane [14:52] <fawkes28> Fudge definitely is doing plenty of manipulating, dd18 - maybe they are both just using each other [14:52] <JaneMarple9> she's pure evil = doesn't even teach properly [14:52] <MrMcGonagall> Umbridge is a toad. = toady. [14:52] <blue_dreamer> expel, can we get stickers LOL [14:52] <MrMcGonagall> It's a mutual admiration society, fawkes. [14:52] <JaneMarple9> she is definatly on fudge's side [14:53] <blue_dreamer> they refuse to see the truth when they can not control it [14:53] <Kneazly> Umbridge does things for Fudge that he doesn't have to acknowledge, that he couldn't do himself [14:53] <fawkes28> Did Snape manipulate Sirius? If so, how? [14:53] <dumbleydore18> that's true fawkes...maybe they are joining ranks and being the manipulation duo [14:53] <nympheart> Snape manipulates everyone, yes [14:53] <MrMcGonagall> Yes. Snape knew what buttons to push. [14:53] <JaneMarple9> i'd say he taunted snape [14:53] <blue_dreamer> manipulating who for what? [14:53] <heathermichelle> Snape goaded Sirius. Not sure if that's the same thing [14:53] <Poet> Yeah, Sirius isn't the only one Snape does that with [14:53] <JaneMarple9> sorry snape taunted sirius [14:53] <blue_dreamer> into going to the ministry? [14:53] <Kneazly> Taunted rather than manipulated. Knew how Sirius would react. [14:54] <MrMcGonagall> Goading is just another means of manipulation, I think. [14:54] <fawkes28> i agree Kneazly - i think taunting is the right word to use here [14:54] <Poet> Snape likes to needle people into giving him information by getting them hot-headed [14:54] <futureweasley> I agree... [14:54] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> I agree Mr McG [14:54] <MrMcGonagall> I don't see the distinction. There are many means of manipulation. [14:54] <heathermichelle> Can be, yeah. But Sirius still had a choice [14:54] <nympheart> Yes, but Snape taunted to achieve another end, I'd call it manipulation [14:54] <Kneazly> Manipulation is to achieve something--what does he achieve besides making him mad? [14:54] <Poet> I think he does it for spying purposes and to place himself in a position of being in control [14:54] <JaneMarple9> snape wound him up and up - isn't a shame you can't leave the house!...I'm giving your precious godson lessons and there's nothing you can do about it.... [14:54] <fawkes28> exactly poet - he just wanted to push his buttons because he could [14:54] <futureweasley> Goading to get under someone's skin and entice them to act is a form of manipulation for sure [14:54] <blue_dreamer> so he doesn't have to take sides [14:55] <MrMcGonagall> To manipulate someone you have to know what motivates them. [14:55] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> that is right. [14:55] <JaneMarple9> it's enough just send anybody off their rocker, and long for freedom [14:55] *** lilinferi has joined #lounge [14:55] <futureweasley> and Snape has Sirius's number from WAY back [14:55] <Expelliarmas> nows what is imprtant to sirius and uses it against him [14:55] <Poet> And I think he does it to make himself more respectable in the eyes of others. If Sirius is being rash, then Snape can look like the calm and collected and in charge person [14:55] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Let them think it is their own choice when it isn't [14:55] <Expelliarmas> *Snape knows [14:55] <nympheart> I think Snape was trying to manipulate Sirius into leaving GP so he'd get caught [14:55] <JaneMarple9> snape and sirius were never best buddies [14:56] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Exactly Poet. [14:56] <JaneMarple9> of course he was nymph [14:56] <Aislinn> whatever Snape said to Sirius, he would have acted as he did, at the end ot OotP [14:56] <blue_dreamer> evil little... [14:56] <Kneazly> Perhaps, Nympheart. But DD would be furious at that [14:56] <Aislinn> It was not Snape's words that drove Sirius to go to Harry's aid [14:56] <JaneMarple9> i think snape wanted sirius to go to the ministry and get caught [14:56] <lilinferi> do you really? [14:56] <fawkes28> I completely agree, Aislinn [14:56] <Kneazly> Yes, Sirius would have gone regardless [14:56] <heathermichelle> the whole thing was so childish. But I suppose neither Snape nor Sirius ever got the chance to properly grow up [14:56] <MrMcGonagall> No, but Snape was pushing the same button. Sirius does have some restraint. [14:56] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> But Sirius also went to the DOM because he cared for Harry. [14:56] <Aislinn> so, he may have goaded him, but I don't think that he manipulated him [14:56] <Poet> One of Jo's interviews (I think the one in 2005 with Melissa and Emerson) said that we'd find out additional reasons Sirius hated Snape - I guess something to do with R.A.B. (like Snape being the one to recruit him perhaps) [14:57] <blue_dreamer> I wonder if Snape misenterpreted 'they've' when Harry yelled at him where they'd got Snuffles [14:57] <fawkes28> no he doesn't Mr. M - he was locked in a house all year [14:57] <Aislinn> manipulation would indicate that he succeeded in changing Sirius' actiions, and he did not [14:57] <JaneMarple9> i don't think snape malipulated sirius [14:57] <fawkes28> he was dying to help Harry [14:57] <MrMcGonagall> The manipulation wasn't succcessful, but I think Snape tried. [14:57] <JaneMarple9> he just tormented him because for once he had the upper hand - snape had freedom [14:58] <nympheart> It makes me wonder exactly how Snape worded that message that Harry disappeared [14:58] <Aislinn> Sirius could have never laid eyes on Snape all year, and he still would have acted in exactly the same way at the end of the book [14:58] *** blue_dreamer has quit [Bye] [14:58] <Raldan> Have to go, take care everyone and happy reading! [14:58] <Aislinn> Harry's safety was much more important to him, than his own was [14:58] <lilinferi> the thing with the books, is that we read from Harry's p.o.v. it makes deciding what REALLY happens so much harder. [14:58] <MrMcGonagall> I agree, Aislinn, but manipulation doesn't have to succeed to be an attempt at manipulation. [14:58] <Aislinn> bye Raldan [14:58] <fawkes28> Snape was just rubbing it in because he could - he wasn't manipulating [14:58] <JaneMarple9> yes we don't know exactly how he worded it [14:58] <Kneazly> Must go, bedtime for kids. Great chat! [14:59] <lilinferi> bye raldan! [14:59] <JaneMarple9> he probably worded it as if harry was being hot headed as usual [14:59] *** Raldan has quit [Bye] [14:59] <lilinferi> byez! [14:59] <Poet> I agree, it wouldn't have mattered if Snape was kind to Sirius, Sirius still would have gone to the DoM, because that's how he rolls [14:59] <Aislinn> yeah, that is probably true Mr M [14:59] *** Kneazly left #lounge [] [14:59] * JaneMarple9 prepares to be hugged to death [14:59] <MrMcGonagall> although I'm not really sure Snape intended anything specific. [14:59] <fawkes28> If you haven't already been sorted for the Reading Groups, here's the link: http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?act=rgs [14:59] <Expelliarmas> go get sorted! [15:00] <JaneMarple9> already have been biggrin [15:00] <fawkes28> Thanks for coming to the chat! smile [15:00] <MrMcGonagall> Bye, everyone! [15:00] <WaggaWaggaWerewolf> Oops better go.Good afternoon/morning/etc. smile [15:00] <lilinferi> bye! [15:00] <heathermichelle> bye! [15:00] <nympheart> back to Macbeth I go... [15:00] <futureweasley> bye guys...see you soon! [15:00] <Poet> bye [15:00] <nympheart> bye! [15:00] *** nympheart left #lounge [] [15:00] <JaneMarple9> hug all her corner booth friends hug [15:00] <Expelliarmas> bye guys, see you later [15:00] <lilinferi> awww.... [15:00] <lilinferi> bye guys! [15:00] <dumbleydore18> sorry i wasn't much of a chatter today guys...I am still half asleep, until tomarrow ! :hugs: [15:01] *** JaneMarple9 has quit [Bye] [15:01] *** dumbleydore18 left #lounge [] [15:01] *** lilinferi left #lounge [] [15:01] *** heathermichelle left #lounge [] -------------------- Sig Image by Brian Ross (DatM) and avi by Jeffhpfan |
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