Reading Group Chat Transcript 6/09/07, Chapters 27,28 of OotP |
 Jun 9 2007, 02:32 PM
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Chief Cat Herder  Posts: 3,514 Joined: 10:28am August 6, 2005 Location: In the Corner Booth - home of the elusive Holy Grain!    |
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[12:59] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [12:59] *** Topic is: Reading Group Chat: Order of the Phoenix chapters 27-28 [12:59] <SoonerGryffindor> hang on, I will check [12:59] <SoonerGryffindor> no [12:59] <SoonerGryffindor> 27 and 28 [12:59] <fawkes28> hey lovely CBers [13:00] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah [13:01] *** MrMcGonagall has joined #lounge [13:01] *** Theoriser has joined #lounge [13:01] *** Puzzlepiece has joined #lounge [13:01] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome puzzlepiece [13:01] <fawkes28> hello all [13:01] <Puzzlepiece> hello [13:01] <Theoriser> hi Puzzlepiece [13:01] <Poet> howdy [13:02] <MrMcGonagall> This should be a great chat today! Such wonderful chapters to discuss. [13:02] <SoonerGryffindor> I know [13:02] <SoonerGryffindor> cant wait [13:02] <fawkes28> yes, i purposedly stayed because of SWM [13:02] <SoonerGryffindor> me too smile [13:03] <Puzzlepiece> good break from exam studying [13:03] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:03] <SoonerGryffindor> heya Aislinn [13:03] <Theoriser> hi aislinn [13:03] *** bookworm1102 has joined #lounge [13:03] <SoonerGryffindor> hello bookworm [13:03] <bookworm1102> hey sooner [13:04] <SoonerGryffindor> so how is everyone today [13:04] <Aislinn> hi smile [13:04] <bookworm1102> good [13:04] <fawkes28> hello bookworm [13:05] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has joined #lounge [13:05] <bookworm1102> hey [13:05] <SoonerGryffindor> fawkes is running a bit slow today [13:05] <MrMcGonagall> Hi, choco! [13:05] <SoonerGryffindor> hey chocolate [13:05] <Puzzlepiece> welcome chocolate [13:05] <bookworm1102> hey cho [13:05] <bookworm1102> clate [13:05] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [13:05] <bookworm1102> *hey choclate [13:05] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hi guys smile [13:05] <bookworm1102> sorry hand was full [13:05] <bookworm1102> doing 20 things at the same time [13:06] <SoonerGryffindor> So I guess its safe to say that none of us are from Chicago or else we would be at the live PC rather than in here? [13:06] <Poet> I thought about it, but alas, no. [13:06] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i'm not too upset, knowing that i'll be at one next month [13:06] <bookworm1102> yea but i wont see any live podcast b/c they are not coming to dallas [13:06] <SoonerGryffindor> funny, but I feel the same way [13:06] <MrMcGonagall> I think futureweasley is there. [13:06] <SoonerGryffindor> ooh, if they ever came to Dallas, I would so be there [13:07] <Poet> Drive up to Wichita (chuckle) [13:07] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, future is there [13:07] <bookworm1102> mee too [13:07] <MrMcGonagall> There's one in Wichita on July 18 that I might go to. [13:07] <SoonerGryffindor> I am thinking about that [13:07] <Poet> There are some over in Mississippi I think [13:07] <Puzzlepiece> they're coming to my town a week before I'm home again, so I'm missing them sad [13:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> columbus is where it's at [13:07] *** Spectre has joined #lounge [13:07] <SoonerGryffindor> maybe I can head that way and pick up Mr M on the way [13:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> awww, too bad puzzlepiece [13:07] <Spectre> hi all [13:07] <SoonerGryffindor> hey spectre [13:07] <fawkes28> awww [13:07] <bookworm1102> hi spectre [13:08] *** penguin1124 has joined #lounge [13:08] <penguin1124> hey [13:08] <Puzzlepiece> hi penguin [13:08] <bookworm1102> hi [13:08] <SoonerGryffindor> hey penguin [13:08] <Theoriser> hi penguin [13:08] <fawkes28> hey penguin [13:08] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:08] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:08] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> so... i slept for 12 hours straight [13:08] <SoonerGryffindor> wow! [13:08] <fawkes28> nice [13:08] <penguin1124> wow [13:08] <Puzzlepiece> mmmmm.... [13:08] * SoonerGryffindor is jealous [13:08] <penguin1124> i have never done that [13:08] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it was an accident [13:08] <fawkes28> hey chocolate - i missed you sneaking in [13:09] <penguin1124> hey fawkes [13:09] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i meant to wake up at 7am... didn't until 12:30 pm [13:09] <SoonerGryffindor> LOL [13:09] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> so... i'm in my jammies! [13:09] <penguin1124> lol [13:09] <fawkes28> just in time for the chat! [13:09] <bookworm1102> lol [13:09] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> yup! [13:09] <SoonerGryffindor> I am still in my jammies as well. I have not had a reason yet to get dressed [13:09] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha sooner [13:10] <bookworm1102> cant. stop. sneezing [13:10] <SoonerGryffindor> sorry bookworm [13:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i have to move tomorrow morning... so right after this, i'm packing alllllll day [13:10] <Puzzlepiece> aww [13:10] <SoonerGryffindor> It was looking like it was going to rain this morning [13:10] <SoonerGryffindor> but all it did was thunder a bit [13:10] <SoonerGryffindor> did you get rain Mr M? [13:10] <bookworm1102> no no more rain [13:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> ohh, that's the best kind, sooner [13:11] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, but it woke me up at about 8am [13:11] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:11] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:11] <SoonerGryffindor> and I have a house full of 14 year old boys who were playing on the playstation till at least 3am [13:11] <Poet> Sooner - I'm still in my outfit from work. I've not gone to bed yet (chuckle) [13:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> sooner! are you gonna fly to prophecy now that the passport rules changed?? [13:11] <SoonerGryffindor> I think I might [13:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> darn... no road trip then lol [13:11] * Puzzlepiece is very jealous of those going to prophecy [13:12] <SoonerGryffindor> I was so glad to see that piece of news. Kimmyblair pinged me right when she saw that [13:12] <bookworm1102> are you all going to prophcey [13:12] <SoonerGryffindor> I am [13:12] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i am! [13:12] <Puzzlepiece> nope, even though I live there [13:12] <fawkes28> we'll be sure to tell you about it! [13:12] <Aislinn> I can't believe how soon it is coming [13:12] <fawkes28> you live in toronto and can't go? that is horrible [13:12] <SoonerGryffindor> I was going to road trip with futureweasley and chocolate, but I will most likely fly in directly now [13:12] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:12] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:12] <Puzzlepiece> I know. I get back the next week [13:12] <fawkes28> we promise not to say i told you so too much to sooner about snape [13:12] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> we'll have to karaoke without you :-D [13:12] <bookworm1102> hope you guys have fun you will have to come back and tell us funny stories [13:12] <Spectre> anyone watching F1 now? smile [13:13] * SoonerGryffindor plans on doing the "I told you so" dance right in front of fawkes [13:13] <fawkes28> in your dreams [13:13] <Puzzlepiece> worst time to go also, with the price of the dollar [13:13] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah [13:13] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hahaha oh, i keep forgetting... who thinks snape is evil? [13:13] <bookworm1102> lol [13:13] <fawkes28> eyebrow [13:13] <SoonerGryffindor> not evil [13:13] <Aislinn> thief [13:13] * Poet will create a Poet action figure doll to do the "I told you so" dance in her place [13:13] <fawkes28> out for his own selfish means [13:13] <Puzzlepiece> hehe [13:13] <bookworm1102> lol [13:13] <Aislinn> what fawkes said [13:13] <fawkes28> awww poet [13:13] <SoonerGryffindor> pffft [13:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> okay, well, is he loyal to dumbledore i mean? [13:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> lol [13:14] * fawkes28 hugs poet [13:14] <Aislinn> nope [13:14] <fawkes28> not at all [13:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> okay [13:14] <Poet> Mmm. Harry's man. Though reluctantly so. [13:14] <fawkes28> he killed him [13:14] <penguin1124> yeah [13:14] <fawkes28> no pact [13:14] * SoonerGryffindor things about recording an "I told you so dance" along with Poet and showing that to everyone at Prophecy [13:14] <Puzzlepiece> out for himself [13:14] <Aislinn> he may do something that helps Harry in the end, but it will not be because he was loyal to Dumbledore during HBP [13:14] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i have to say i'm on sooner's side [13:14] <bookworm1102> lol sooner [13:14] * fawkes28 is thinking sooner is feverish [13:14] <SoonerGryffindor> thanks chocolate [13:15] <fawkes28> exactly, aislinn [13:15] * Poet thinks fawkes needs a sweater [13:15] <SoonerGryffindor> okay [13:15] <fawkes28> oh, chocolate sad [13:15] <SoonerGryffindor> you guys are going to have to decide before July 21 [13:15] *** penguin1124 has quit [Bye] [13:15] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think he used to be out for himself, before the whole prophecy thing [13:15] <SoonerGryffindor> this whole "out for himself thing" could be interpreted 2 different ways [13:15] <SoonerGryffindor> either you think he will help or hurt Harry. [13:15] <Aislinn> nope, not that simple [13:15] <SoonerGryffindor> if you think he will help Harry, we are on the same side [13:15] <Puzzlepiece> he got mixed up. He might have had original motives, but things didnt go as planned, and he is dead either way [13:15] <fawkes28> well, we are lucky and get to chat about SWM today [13:16] <Aislinn> him helping harry does NOT mean that he has been loyal to DD up to this point in the story [13:16] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think he will help harry, because harry is the one to kill voldemort... snape hates hime because HE wants to kill voldemort for his own reasons [13:16] <fawkes28> no, that is not true, sooner [13:16] <fawkes28> if he helps Harry it will be because that is in the best interest for himself at the time [13:16] <Aislinn> exactly [13:16] <SoonerGryffindor> aha, but isnt that the case for everyone? [13:16] <fawkes28> not because he has been loyal to dumbledore the entire time [13:16] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think he wants to kill voldemort for different reasons than dumbledore did, but i think that dumbledore and him had a pact [13:16] <Aislinn> no [13:16] <SoonerGryffindor> Isnt that why a lot of characters are going to help harry? [13:16] <Puzzlepiece> He might have originally been a spy for one side, but ended up gaining trust and now isnt sure which side hes on and is caught in the middle [13:16] <fawkes28> No, it is not everyone else has been loyal to Dumbledore in the Order [13:16] <bookworm1102> well dosnt snape have a debt to james? so insint he obligated to protect harry [13:17] *** bemused has joined #lounge [13:17] <Puzzlepiece> hi bemused [13:17] <Aislinn> Harry is doing it not only for himself, but also because it is what is best for the world at large, and because he cares about his friends and others [13:17] <fawkes28> No way - Lupin has not selfish means whatsoever [13:17] <fawkes28> hey bemused [13:17] <Aislinn> right [13:17] <SoonerGryffindor> So what is the difference between Snape helping Harry and the MoM helping him? [13:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Snape wants Voldemort vanquished [13:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> for personal reasons [13:17] <fawkes28> The Ministry did not kill Dumbledore [13:17] <Puzzlepiece> so does the MoM [13:17] <Aislinn> maybe nothing, sooner, depending on who and why [13:17] <Aislinn> good point fawkes [13:17] <Aislinn> but this is the RG chat, so...... [13:18] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [13:18] <Aislinn> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You're not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you'll be able to type again soon. [13:18] <Aislinn> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod. [13:18] <Aislinn> You won't be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it" in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [13:18] <Aislinn> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [13:19] <Aislinn> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [13:19] <Theoriser> Firenze gives an interesting Divination class. He has a message for Hagrid, which Hagrid doesn’t care for–whatever he’s trying to do in the Forest is coming on fine. Harry takes refuge in the DA. They're working on Patronuses, when Dobby rushes in–The Toad knows about them and is coming. Harry leaves last and gets caught by Malfoy. [13:19] <Theoriser> Kingsley modifies the Sneak’s memory. Dumbledore takes the blame for the DA, but has no intention of coming quietly and escapes. The Toad becomes Headmistress. The Twins shove Montague into the Vanishing Cabinet and declare war. Harry argues with Cho. Harry jumps into the unprotected Pensieve and joins the Marauders and Snape at an exam. At the Lake, they spot Snape. [13:19] <Theoriser> He goes for his wand and gets nailed. He curses and tries hexing James who washes his mouth out. Lily intervenes, but not Lupin. Snape slashes James’ face who flips Snape revealing ... graying underpants. Lily intervenes. James lets Snape down and jinxes him. Snape calls her a Mudblood. James insists on an apology. She insists James is as bad as Snape, tells him he’s a conceited twit, and leaves. James flips Snape over again. [13:19] <Theoriser> Suddenly, the present day greaseball joins Harry in the memory. Back in his office, Snape shakes Harry hard and throws Harry away from him. Harry is to tell no one what he saw and never come back to Snape’s office. Harry pities Snape. [13:20] *** Dreamteam has joined #lounge [13:20] <Theoriser> Thanks to Chamber 88 and Room 18 for the introduction. Ready? Good, let’s chat about Chapters 27 and 28. [13:20] <Theoriser> New Divination lessons - better or worse than Trelawney's classes? (Chamber 88) [13:20] *** MaimetheHunter has joined #lounge [13:20] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> better! [13:20] <Puzzlepiece> better. they have some substance to them [13:21] *** janieb has joined #lounge [13:21] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it shows how non-absolute the future is, which is what i think is more accurate for the HP world [13:21] <bookworm1102> they maybe better b/c they are learning from a new teacher qho has a diffrebt perspective on things [13:21] <Aislinn> I think they are more "real" [13:21] <fawkes28> i thought that he at least admits that divination is not a perfect art [13:21] <Aislinn> hi MaimetheHunter , janieb [13:21] <MaimetheHunter> Hi [13:21] <bemused> better - they involve contact with another species and a different perspective [13:21] <MrMcGonagall> Better in the sense that there's an acknowledgment of Divination's limitiations. [13:21] <janieb> hello [13:21] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i thought that classroom was the coolest in the entire series [13:21] <bookworm1102> agreed Choclate [13:22] <Aislinn> repeat of question: New Divination lessons - better or worse than Trelawney's classes? (Chamber 88) [13:22] <MaimetheHunter> Catch me up. Are we speaking of Firenze? [13:22] <Theoriser> yes, he admits that it's not always perfect [13:22] <bookworm1102> yes [13:22] <fawkes28> i think he is a better teacher because he is not trying to prove how great he is at his subject [13:22] <Spectre> Firenze doesn't fanatically believe in what he's doing [13:22] <MaimetheHunter> I wonder as in myth, if Centaurs are an older race of beings in the HP universe? [13:22] <Aislinn> yes, maime [13:23] <fawkes28> trelawney always has to prove how well she knows her subject [13:23] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I thought they were better... and being a girl, I wouldn't mind looking at handsome Firenze for an entire class instead of bug-eyed Trelawney :-D [13:23] <Aislinn> I think they are, as they speak of being an ancient race [13:23] <janieb> Is he only doing it as a favor to DD--or does he see a benefit for the students in learning the subject? [13:23] <Theoriser> Does the subject seem more worthy to you, taught by Firenze? (Chamber 88) [13:23] <bookworm1102> i think the studdents find him more belvable then trelawny [13:23] <Puzzlepiece> he didnt predict a death and he made an effort [13:23] <bemused> what he teaches is so much deeper [13:23] *** wordsofwisdom has joined #lounge [13:24] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> yes, theoriser.... made it seem like fate was more grand than breaking teacups [13:24] <fawkes28> nope - it does not change my view of divination - it is not predictable and therefore, i do not put much faith in it [13:24] <Puzzlepiece> he doesnt peddle in the stupidity of burns and dream diaries [13:24] <MrMcGonagall> Well, a bit more realistic, anyway, with the fortunetelling antics. [13:24] <bookworm1102> again i think the students belive him more then they did trelawny . the students thought she was a joke [13:24] * chocolateisnotforbreakfast doesn't think dream diaries are stupid.... :-D [13:24] <bemused> I loved the way he dismissed Trelawny-style predictions [13:24] <MrMcGonagall> Me too, bemused [13:24] <MaimetheHunter> Firenze understanding of the universe would be entirely different-an individual life and death would not be as important as the contribution the person makes [13:24] * Puzzlepiece appologizes to chocolate and sends her a blank one to keep [13:25] <bookworm1102> he probably also thnks she a joke bemused [13:25] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha [13:25] <Spectre> I think Firenze actually shows that Divination is even less worthy than Trelawney tries to present. [13:25] <Theoriser> What do you think about Dumbledore sacrificing himself to keep Harry from being expelled? (Chamber 88) [13:25] <Puzzlepiece> because he shows how unpredictable it is? [13:25] <Poet> Amazing precident [13:25] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think Dumbldore had been expecting it for quite a long time [13:25] <Spectre> It foreshadows Dumbledore's sacrifice in HBP [13:25] <MrMcGonagall> DD's all about education. At this point, it's more important for Harry to be in school. [13:25] <MaimetheHunter> All of the younger people would have been expelled. [13:25] <fawkes28> because harry is safe at hogwarts [13:26] <fawkes28> harry cannot leave because who knows what would happen [13:26] <Puzzlepiece> I think he knew he would do more good out of Hogwarts at that point since ti was so far gone with Umbridge that doing order work was mor eproductive [13:26] <bookworm1102> i show how imporant it is to keep Harry at hogwarts not only his safty but in a wway the students as well b/c he is teaching them how to protect themselves [13:26] *** wordsofwisdom has quit [Bye] [13:26] <bemused> It was the sort of thing you'd expect of him - but it also freed him to wrok behind the scenes - whatever it is he was doing [13:26] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> when i first read it, I was like "ohhhhh sweet!!!!" because it really shook things up, having Dumbledore do somethign SO against the ministry [13:26] <bemused> *work [13:26] <fawkes28> Dumbledore is a powerful wizard who can take care of himself - and Harry needs his education - he needs the D.A. [13:26] <janieb> As long a McGonagal was still there, he didn't seem worried for the kids [13:26] <MaimetheHunter> I think the difference between what Firenze considers divination and what Trelawney feels is divination is like the difference in the spirtual pursuit of such matters and newspaper astrology [13:27] <Theoriser> What do you think about Hermione carelessly referring to Firenze as a horse? (Chamber 29) [13:27] <bemused> There was no way he would have stood by and see Harry - and the others expelled [13:28] <Dreamteam> I think DD may have still lbeen there in some form, perhaps invisible or as transformed as a bee (Harry often hears insects buzzing at various times in the books) [13:28] <Dreamteam> so he could still keep an eye on Harry [13:28] <Spectre> Really careless - good that she didn't say that to Bane when she led Umbridge to Forbidden Forest... [13:28] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> my whole stand on Dumbledore allowing Umbridge to teach is that he expected her to do exactly what she did... set all kinds of rules and make all the students HATE the ministry. And it forced the students to unite, and I think Dumbledore predicted that it would happen, and might have been planning to say it was his idea for them to unite together all along [13:28] <bookworm1102> b/c she wasnt in the forbbidan forset the first tim , when ron and harry met him [13:28] <janieb> very keen observation, Dream [13:28] <Puzzlepiece> true chocolate [13:28] <MrMcGonagall> I think Hermione was reacting a bit to the gaga expression of Lavender. [13:29] <bookworm1102> that too [13:29] <MaimetheHunter> Agreed. I think he had faith in McGonagall and the kids. Well, it shows that Hermione has a few prejudices herself [13:29] <Puzzlepiece> it was uncharacteristic of Hermione though, what with SPEW [13:29] <bemused> Yes, Mr M - I think it wa aimed at the girls rather than at Firenze [13:29] <janieb> That makes sense, MrMc--I was always puzzled by her reaction [13:29] <Puzzlepiece> I don't think Hermione understands Centaurs as well as harry [13:29] <Theoriser> Were you surprised that Parvati and Lavender seem to be a bit more sensitive than Hermione when it comes to Centaurs? Or is it simply because Firenze is so attractive? (Chamber 29) [13:29] <MaimetheHunter> No, I think Hermione lack of understanding that Firenze was not a Beast--as in inferior being was geniiune. [13:30] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it's because he's a hottie, AND he's into divination, which they're all about [13:30] * SoonerGryffindor is confused as to why Firenze was even considered attractive [13:30] <fawkes28> Hermione also puts little faith into Divination [13:30] <SoonerGryffindor> he has 4 hooves! [13:30] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, choco. [13:30] <bookworm1102> i was probably because they thought he was cute [13:30] <Poet> I agree with MaimetheHunter . She's not had interactions previously with centaurs [13:30] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:30] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:30] <MrMcGonagall> Parvati and Lavender, animal rights activists? Pfffft. [13:30] <Puzzlepiece> Sooner, you react liker Hermione :P [13:30] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> don't think of the firenze from the movie, sooner.... in canon, he was human up top, not nasty caveman lol [13:30] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [13:30] <SoonerGryffindor> I just dont see the attraction [13:31] <Puzzlepiece> not a horse person? [13:31] <MaimetheHunter> They live in the forest. They must be, to Hermione's mind, more animals with an unfortunate human like appearance [13:31] <bemused> I think JKR is probably smiling there at the way some teenage girls adore horses (sorry Firenze) [13:31] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> imagine orlando bloom... from the waist up [13:31] <Dreamteam> perhaps they're attracted by his strength, power and sense of mystery [13:31] <fawkes28> lol chocolate [13:31] <bookworm1102> lol choclate [13:31] <MrMcGonagall> It's just Lavender and Parvati thinking with their hormones. [13:31] <bemused> Lavender and Parvati are definitely fangirls [13:31] <Spectre> Or imagine the centaur from Narnia movie, also attractive enough biggrin [13:32] <MaimetheHunter> Yes indeed. [13:32] <Theoriser> Do you think like Hermione it's all a bunch of rubbish? (Chamber 007) [13:32] <bookworm1102> maybe hermione dosnt like him b/c lavender thinks he is cute imean she was already dating ron and that was enough to make her angery [13:32] <janieb> I was amazed at how quickly L & P adjusted to Trelawney's loss [13:32] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> no - there is a room in the DoM devoted to fate, in the hall of Prophecy.... i think there is definitely something there [13:32] <MrMcGonagall> I think there's more to centaur divination than the fortunetelling Trelawney peddles. [13:32] <MaimetheHunter> But again I think JKR is showing how even an intelligent person, who is targeted by bigots can have a few bigoted misconceptions as well.. [13:33] <Spectre> Divination seems to be a... um... counterpart of Arithmancy. Strict logic of numbers against much more vague thoughts [13:33] <bookworm1102> I think JKR has shown us that it hasnt been a load of rubbish i mean think about the propachy [13:33] <Spectre> Maybe that's why Hermione is so against it [13:33] * fawkes28 raise hand highly [13:33] <bemused> It's curious... does she think Harry's prophecy is rubbish? [13:33] <Dreamteam> I think with Trelawney L&P were fascinated by diviniation but with Firenze they were fascinated by divination and him [13:33] <Theoriser> I'd trust the centaurs' version of divination more than trelawney's [13:33] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> agreed, spectre.... i wish we got an arithmancy lesson [13:33] <MaimetheHunter> Well, traditional prophesy is not always telling the future but more reading the times... [13:33] <Puzzlepiece> I think there is something there. I don't, however think wizards have found it yet [13:34] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> yes fawkes?? [13:34] <fawkes28> i do not put much faith into divination - it is people's choices [13:34] <fawkes28> i listen to dumbledore [13:34] <Poet> Well the centaur's understanding of their world is a part of their life. So its not rubbish in the sense that its part of their culture. However, they look so long term. Humans aren't that patient [13:34] <fawkes28> well, on most things anyway wink [13:34] <Puzzlepiece> or that long living [13:34] <Spectre> Do you think that Voldemort made his CHOICE to fulfill the prophecy rather than ignoring it fawkes? smile [13:34] <janieb> Divination has value to the degree that it is not manipulated emotionally or forced to serve any outside agenda. It could be helpful to teach the discipline of paying attention [13:34] <MrMcGonagall> I agree, fawkes. If the ruddy star-gazing centaurs would look at the world around them, they'd probably be just as good at Divination. [13:35] <MaimetheHunter> Prophets of old understood dreams, the weather, the social climate, and didn't bother with petty matters like is Bob going to marry Jane or is Jane going to get that promotion. [13:35] <janieb> Firenze's brand I mean [13:35] <Theoriser> Firenze greets Harry and tells him their second meeting was foretold. Any takers on what the heck they are talking about? Got any theories on why Firenze was banned from his herd? Do you think it’s a ‘lifetime ban’? Why do you think J.K. ROWLING, keeps referring back to PS/SS events in this chapter? (Room 62442–The Brain Room) [13:35] <Spectre> Reminds me in a way of one astrologist who predicted that he'll die aged 76. On his 76th birthday he was still in perfect health, but he preferred to actually commit suicide to fulfill his prophecy sad [13:35] <Puzzlepiece> Maime, it is hard to compare considering the culture change though [13:36] <fawkes28> yes, but choosing to believe in the prophecy, he was fulfilling it, spectre [13:36] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think there is something deeper that causes prophecies to be told... fate exists in the HP world because of thte existence of prophecies. Now, prophecies aren't concrete, as Dumbledore has said, but once you "activate" a prophecy, it's like you can't stop it from happening. What caused Trelawney to make the prophecy about Harry and Voldemort in the first place, that influenced Voldemort to make his decision to [13:36] <MrMcGonagall> I've always thought that Firenze's statement in PS/SS about Mars being bright tonight was a loaded observation. [13:36] <bookworm1102> maybe those chapter wher harry met firenze were important to the later books [13:36] <bookworm1102> noone really looked at them closely [13:36] <Puzzlepiece> I loved "Mars is bright tonight" [13:37] <bemused> Wasn't Firenze banned for being willing to involve himself with humans? [13:37] <Puzzlepiece> right [13:37] <bookworm1102> yes bemused [13:37] <MrMcGonagall> We already had an idea of Firenze's opinions on the coming conflict and where he would position himself in Book One, so I don't think it's a surprise he's banned from his herd and reappears in OotP [13:37] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think there was a throwback to SS/PS because Harry remembered that Bane didn't like it that Firenze helped Harry... the events in OotP are like that event, but on a grander scale [13:38] <MaimetheHunter> I think so, but Firenze words don't give me much hope that Harry, once he fulfills his destiny will live. [13:38] <bookworm1102> i agree w/ choclate [13:38] <Spectre> hm... in a way, Firenze is similar to Percy - he chose to be loyal to an organization (Hogwarts) instead of his own herd [13:38] <Theoriser> Harry is not the only one now marked with a scar … Harry’s Lightning bolt, Dumbledore’s knee and now a moon-shaped scar on Firenze … Comments? Lots of moon references in this book …. What’s up with that? (Room 62442–The Brain Room) [13:38] <MrMcGonagall> Again, not something foretold in the stars, but a logical outcome based on the choices the centaurs made. [13:38] <Poet> I also think he was trying to interfere and change events [13:38] <Puzzlepiece> moon -> Luna? [13:39] <MrMcGonagall> Well, a hoof would leave a moon-shaped bruise, wouldn't it? [13:39] <Poet> The knee scar reminds me of the Fisher King's wound - from the early Grail myths [13:39] <SoonerGryffindor> yes [13:39] <MaimetheHunter> I think Centaurs have a non-interference directive [13:39] <bookworm1102> maybe they all including Dumbledore in someway will help harry in the final battle [13:39] <Aislinn> I agree Mr M [13:39] <bemused> Yes Mr M - and a creature that looks at the sky all the time is going to be interested in the moon [13:39] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i agree, maime [13:39] <fawkes28> oh, poet - did that scar do anything or signfiy anything? [13:40] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think there's anything magical or symbolic about it. If anything, just Jo's private giggle about an association with star-gazing. [13:40] <MaimetheHunter> Firenze in helping Harry could be a bit like Merlin who saw events and tried to manipulate them [13:40] <Puzzlepiece> remember Hagrid said that they are not interested in anything closer than the moon [13:40] <bookworm1102> maybe in some its forshadowing the future [13:40] <Poet> The wound sort of signfied that the old king was dying and that the land was sick or in drought. The grail knights could heal the land if they found the objects I believe [13:41] <SoonerGryffindor> What can you deduce about those who can cast the Patronus charm versus those who can't? Also, what do you think about the animals that we see here? (Room 18–The Atrium) [13:41] <Poet> So wounds often show that there is a rift in the land [13:41] <MaimetheHunter> Jo writes about a lot of things she has no faith in --Magic for example. [13:41] <fawkes28> interesting, thank you smile [13:41] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think the animals show some of the character of the caster [13:41] <SoonerGryffindor> I like how Cho's is a swan. Shows how she views the world and herself [13:41] <MrMcGonagall> Definitely, choco [13:41] <bemused> I was a bit surprised that any of the DA could cast a Patronus, given that Harry was considered so advanced [13:41] <MaimetheHunter> It's been nice to chat with you all, but I'm late for my morning cuppa...Cheers! [13:41] <MrMcGonagall> And Hermione got Jo's favorite, an otter. [13:42] <Puzzlepiece> well Jo always said she was a bit like Hermione [13:42] *** MaimetheHunter has quit [Bye] [13:42] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> like, cho's swan... a swan chooses one mate for life and is devoted to it forever. kind of shows how she is so devoted to Cedric, even after his death [13:42] <Spectre> I think it depends on who teaches the Patronus charm. [13:42] *** janieb has quit [Bye] [13:42] *** janieb has joined #lounge [13:42] <SoonerGryffindor> I was thinking the swan was representative of vanity [13:42] <Puzzlepiece> they were also all in a brightly lit room [13:42] <MrMcGonagall> And a swan can have a real mean streak at times, too, when aggravated. [13:42] <bemused> I wonder if they could still do it under threat [13:43] <Puzzlepiece> i doubt it. maybe the ones that went to the ministry [13:43] <bookworm1102> i think that the animals might show the persion emotion b/c i am sorry but im thinking HPB when tonks was upset and couldnt cast hers so maybe some people couldnt cast theirs b/c their heart wwasnt in it or they wewfeeling somthing else [13:43] <SoonerGryffindor> Ron's patronus is a dog, which indicates loyalty [13:43] <Spectre> Yes bemused... like repelling the dementors [13:43] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> swans are a symbol of love so often, because of their devotion to each other [13:43] <Dreamteam> Hmm, I thought Cho having a swan patronus was because she was graceful [13:43] <MrMcGonagall> I think it's many of these things. A composite, if you will. [13:43] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:43] <Poet> I do wonder if those that can cast it are better in touch with their memories and emotions [13:43] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:44] <Dreamteam> maybe they're more in touch with their emotions [13:44] <bookworm1102> dont you have to think of a happy memory to cast the charm? [13:44] <Puzzlepiece> who else cast? [13:44] <bemused> Neville couldn't do it, could he, but I suppose he doesn't have many happy memories [13:44] <Spectre> those who can cast Patronus KNOW what exactly can make them happy [13:44] <SoonerGryffindor> . Dobby - got to love that little guy! He comes to warn Harry – again, against the wishes of his ‘Master’ – Seems like a pretty brave thing to do. Yet, as a free elf he should be able to do this without punishment. What do you make of him trying to punish himself and having difficulty telling Harry? Was he placed back into elf slavery when the Headmasters changed? (Room 62442–The Brain Room) [13:44] <Dreamteam> Didn't Seamus cast one that was large and hairy [13:45] <fawkes28> no, Dobby is free - i think it is hard for him to break bad habits [13:45] <bemused> I think it's a cse of old habits dying hard, with Dobby [13:45] <Puzzlepiece> he still is working for Hogwarts though technically doesnt need to stay [13:45] <Spectre> Dobby, as a house elf, is probably too loyal [13:45] <fawkes28> great minds, bemused [13:45] <Aislinn> I think it is long habit of servitude that is difficult to break, despite being freed. [13:45] <bookworm1102> i think since he had to punish himself so many times w/ the malfoys that it was just a habit [13:45] <bemused> in most things, fawkes!!!! [13:45] <fawkes28> LOL [13:45] * Spectre wonders if house elves would be all selected in Hufflepuff if actually allowed to study in Hogwarts biggrin [13:45] <SoonerGryffindor> I wonder most why Harry was able to give him orders [13:46] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> no, but I think the risidual elf-enslavement is still etched in his mind... just like he wouldn't ever have accepted 10 galleons a week and days off from Dumbledore, despite the fact that he was free to accept it and had been offered it... it was too much for his little mind [13:46] <Dreamteam> I think Harry made requests rather than gave orders [13:46] <bookworm1102> agrees [13:46] <bemused> I disagree, dreamteam, i think Harry was giving orders there [13:46] <MrMcGonagall> I think Dobby is being conflicted with his loyalties to Harry, whom he adores, and Umbridge, who as a member of staff has a certain degree of authority over him. [13:47] <bemused> it's rather like the question of how Hermione could have freed the elves [13:47] <Spectre> Are there such things as "requests" to house elves? [13:47] <janieb> great parallel, bemused [13:47] <bemused> seems to me the school elves might take orders from anyone in the school [13:47] <Dreamteam> maybe as a free elf he is able to choose who he obeys [13:47] <MrMcGonagall> Me too bemused [13:48] <bookworm1102> dont they have to though bemused [13:48] <SoonerGryffindor> it really does seem as if Harry was giving orders. And Dobby was thankful for them [13:48] <Poet> He can choose who to serve, and he's still stuck in those old "serving" habits [13:48] <Spectre> but the elves are free to interpret the orders as they wish... at least Kreacher was [13:48] <janieb> Harry knows orders helps Dobby [13:48] <bemused> I agree, sooner [13:48] <MrMcGonagall> Exactly, Janie. [13:49] <SoonerGryffindor> In regard to the Inquisitorial Squad entering the Room of Requirement, how could Harry and company could have re-worded their need for the room so the Toad and company couldn't get in? (Chamber 007). [13:49] <bookworm1102> orders i guess make dobby more comfortable that way he won punish himself [13:49] <Puzzlepiece> "I need a room to practice DADA where the Toad or accomplices cant find me?" [13:49] <bookworm1102> we want a place the squad cant find [13:50] <bemused> the Room seems to have a mind of its own [13:50] <fawkes28> nice, Puzzlepiece [13:50] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, they did make a big mistake not wording the room right [13:50] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:50] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:50] <Puzzlepiece> Malfoy probably needed a place nobody else could ifnd [13:50] <MrMcGonagall> Well, they could have left and gone back in, asking for a place to hide, but the Toad and the IS might still have been able to get into the old DA room and found the parchment. [13:50] <Poet> Hermione might have also had to make it so none of the DA could describe the room to someone not in the DA [13:50] <SoonerGryffindor> that is an interesting thought Mr M [13:50] <bemused> or why did Umbridge's need for evidence outweigh the DA's need for secrecy [13:51] <Puzzlepiece> No MrMcGonagall. When MAlfoy was in the room, Trelawney couldn't get in to hide her Sherry bottles [13:51] <Poet> Supposedly Umbridge got in because she knew what the room looked like, just like Trewlaney in Book 6 was looking for a room that she'd been in before [13:51] <Spectre> I need a room to practice DADA that can be entered only by those who are listed in the parchment biggrin [13:51] <MrMcGonagall> Tht was because Malfoy threw her out. [13:51] * Puzzlepiece appologizes [13:52] * Puzzlepiece waves goodbye [13:52] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> well, malfoy had to use the room that was for hiding things, didn't he? the only time someone could enter that specific room was if they wanted to hide an object, right? [13:52] *** Puzzlepiece has quit [Bye] [13:52] <SoonerGryffindor> What did you think of Umbridge's description of the Marietta coming to Umbridge? Do you think that's they way it really happened? (Chamber 29) [13:52] <janieb> Ror guideline make my brain a little fuzzy [13:52] <fawkes28> oh, Marietta - devil2 [13:53] <MrMcGonagall> More or less. [13:53] <bookworm1102> i think umbridge maybe suspected something maybe found a way to force her to tell [13:53] <bemused> I think so... [13:53] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i bet Umbridge did a number on her, asking her questions and everything until marietta freaked [13:53] <bookworm1102> or threated her family [13:53] <MrMcGonagall> I do think Marietta went to Umbridge to spill the beans. [13:53] <Spectre> or Crucio-d [13:54] <bookworm1102> umbridge would do that [13:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> maybe Marietta got a letter from her mom or something [13:54] <janieb> I think so too, Mr. McGonagall [13:54] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> like ron got one from percy [13:54] <bemused> Yes - I think it was her choice. Her heart was never in the DA, and with a ministy Mother, maybe she decided it was dnagerous [13:54] <bookworm1102> may umbridge threated to expell her [13:54] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Marietta was never 100% on board and she only was doing it to advance Cho's ulterior motives wth Harry [13:54] <MrMcGonagall> Marietta may have had a whole host of reasons for going to Umbridge. [13:55] <bemused> She went for Cho's sake - when Harry and Cho fell out she probably didn't feel any obligation tp the DA [13:55] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:55] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:55] <janieb> that works with the timing of their spat, bemused [13:56] <bemused> Yes Mr M - there are all sorts of possible reasons there, but I don't think she was forced [13:56] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, it does. [13:56] <Poet> I think you're possibly right chocolateisnotforbreakfast [13:56] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think so either, bemused [13:56] <SoonerGryffindor> McGonagall and the portrait of former Headmaster Fortescue are outraged that the Ministry would basically buy testimony from Willy Widdershins by dropping charges against him. What are your thoughts on this? Is it corruption or a common and acceptable part of the justice system? (Chamber 29) [13:56] <fawkes28> it doesnt surprise me that the ministry does that [13:56] <SoonerGryffindor> I love Minerva's response to this [13:56] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, it's corruption. And yes, it happens all the time, even in the real world. [13:57] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> doesn't surprise me either... happens a lot in real life [13:57] <MrMcGonagall> Pleas bargains are nothing new. [13:57] <fawkes28> they are not consistent at all in terms of their justice system [13:57] <bemused> It does happen doesn't it, even though it is rather murky [13:57] *** Dreamteam left #lounge [] [13:57] <bookworm1102> i think the mom is corrupted as a whol so much that no one can do anything about it [13:57] <Spectre> how come that the kids didn't notice Widdershins in Hog's Head? [13:57] <SoonerGryffindor> he was hidden' [13:57] <MrMcGonagall> Law enforcement is always willing to let the small fry go in order to catch a bigger fish. [13:57] <bemused> They didn't know him did they, spectre? [13:57] <Spectre> well, they would at least pay attention on someone bandaged [13:58] *** Kneazly has joined #lounge [13:58] <fawkes28> hey Kneazly [13:58] <Aislinn> they probably had never laid eyes on him before, so even if he wasn't bandaged, they wouldn't have knownn him [13:58] <SoonerGryffindor> I think this is a prime example of the ethics of the MoM [13:58] <Kneazly> Hi All! [13:58] <Spectre> and speaking on topic... it's pretty usual in the justice system, I think [13:58] <SoonerGryffindor> hello Kneazly [13:58] <Aislinn> hi kneazly [13:58] <bemused> hello Kneazly [13:58] <Spectre> hi Kneazly [13:58] <fawkes28> which is what Jo may be trying to point out, spectre [13:59] <SoonerGryffindor> they are totally willing to lok the other way to further their agenda [13:59] <bookworm1102> but i guess it could be worse umbridge could be the minister [13:59] <SoonerGryffindor> Looking at things from another side, what do you think about Dumbledore withholding the truth and downright lying for Harry and the D.A.? Is this justified? (Chamber 29) [13:59] <janieb> Minerva did seem to think this kind of deal was a new development [13:59] <Spectre> Everything is justified at that point, I think... [13:59] <Poet> Dumbledore has unusual methods for sure [13:59] <SoonerGryffindor> I see it as justifiable [13:59] <Aislinn> it is a form of civil disobedience [13:59] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> I think it's justified [14:00] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, it's justified, because nothing the Ministry has done is justified. [14:00] <bookworm1102> I think its justified [14:00] <Aislinn> the rules that had been put in place were draconian and completely out of line [14:00] <Poet> He knew he was beyond reasoning with the Ministry [14:00] <Spectre> It's as justified as the Educational Decrees issued before [14:00] <Aislinn> so rebelling against them is the moral thing to do [14:00] <bemused> Yes [14:00] <Kneazly> Yes, civil disobedience--someone has to act, and Fudge isn't, so DD needs to keep things rolling and keep Harry safe [14:00] <janieb> well said, Aislinn--and protecting the students at the same time [14:00] <Poet> So he had to do something that extreme [14:00] <SoonerGryffindor> Well, I personally think that DD did it to prevent Harry from being expelled [14:00] <SoonerGryffindor> DD knows how critical Harry is to everything [14:00] <Aislinn> he most likely did [14:01] <MrMcGonagall> I agree, Sooner. [14:01] <bemused> I agree, Sooner [14:01] <bookworm1102> if he didnt lie the whole school except maybe the slytherins would be expled [14:01] <Spectre> not only Harry, but other DA members as well, I think [14:01] <SoonerGryffindor> that was the higher goal [14:01] <SoonerGryffindor> Was it ethical of Kingsley to use of a Memory Charm on Marietta? (Chamber 29) [14:01] <Aislinn> but the only reason that harry would have been expelled would be because of these unjust rules [14:01] <Aislinn> DD would not allow that [14:01] <bemused> He did what he had to in those circumstances [14:01] <Spectre> as on previous question - everything is ethical at that point [14:01] <fawkes28> in this case i think he did what he had to do [14:01] <bemused> to protect his students, which is a Head's role [14:02] <MrMcGonagall> I don't like memory charms, but again, it had to be done. [14:02] <bookworm1102> i think it maybe etichal only b/c she was so upset about it [14:02] <Aislinn> Marietta was a traitor, so preventing her from compounding that was a reasonable action to take [14:02] <SoonerGryffindor> I have to admit I am uncomfortable with it, but I think it was the only option so Kingsley had to do it' [14:02] <Spectre> Kingsley lied to the Ministry all the way in Book 5, anyway [14:02] <bemused> Same questions really - no, in the purest sense it's not ethical, but he did it to prevent an injustice [14:02] <Kneazly> I agree Bemused [14:02] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, there weren't a lot of choices at that point. [14:03] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has quit [Bye] [14:03] <Aislinn> right - the choice is which is the greater evil? [14:03] <fawkes28> yes, i do not think he would have just done it under normal circumstances [14:03] <Poet> I certainly didn't like Dumbledore and Kingsley's methods here, but look what Dumbledore has been up against all year. He'd tried reasoning and doing things the legal way [14:03] <MrMcGonagall> Marietta had done a terribly unjust and unethical thing, so in a way, Kingsley was only limiting the effects of her betrayal. [14:03] <Aislinn> exactly Mr M [14:03] <Theoriser> Harry wasn’t the only one that wanted to kick Percy as he laughed over Fudge’s demeaning attack on Harry and Dumbledore. What are your thoughts on Percy’s ‘brown-nosing’ to Fudge? (Now that’s an interesting mental image!) (Room 62442–The Brain Room) [14:04] <Aislinn> I was so frustrated with Percy throughout this book [14:04] * MrMcGonagall feels nauseated. [14:04] <Spectre> Percy is... being Percy, sadly [14:04] <bemused> Oh Percy!!! He is being a pain... [14:04] * fawkes28 hates Percy so she will remain silent [14:04] <Aislinn> even more now that he knows his father almost died, and still didn't wake up to reality [14:04] <Kneazly> Why is he such a toady? He was toadyish to DD when he was prefect/head boy too--toadies to whoever he sees as having power [14:04] <Spectre> and to Crouch [14:04] <janieb> Percy's betrayal hurt me more than Marietta's [14:05] <Aislinn> me too, janieb [14:05] <bookworm1102> i think percy is trying so hard to prove that he is right or at least find proof that he is he can make his family switch sides [14:05] <bemused> Yes, janieb - there are all sorts of reasons you can forgive Marietta but Percy really should have more sense [14:05] <Poet> I agree, its sickening and disheartening. He seems to be living in his own little world there at the Ministry - not taking in what is truly going on [14:05] <Theoriser> he thinks the best way of getting where he wants to be in life is to find someone of authority and worship them [14:05] <Kneazly> He's got his head in the sand, just looking for his own advancement [14:06] <Poet> Yes, head in the sand is a great way of putting it. [14:06] <bookworm1102> i just thought of this i mean its a lille wacky but what if percy did what he did on purpose [14:06] <bemused> why, bookworm? [14:06] <bookworm1102> like maybe he is tryingto get info for dumbledore [14:06] <Poet> Unfortunately he spends all day at the Ministry so he doesn't the full picture [14:07] <Spectre> what kind of info, bookworm? [14:07] <Theoriser> Umbridge shakes Marietta and guess what happens … she has to jerk her hands away because it was “as though she had been burned”. Hmmm, remarkably like Uncle Vernon trying to throttle Harry - Do you think the same magic was involved? Who do you think placed that magic on Marietta/Umbridge – Kingsley or Dumbledore? (Room 62442–The Brain Room) [14:07] <SoonerGryffindor> if Percy and DD were in collusion, the rest of the Weasley family would have known [14:07] <MrMcGonagall> DD [14:07] <Kneazly> I've heard speculation that he's DD's spy before, but I can't see why he'd break with his family to do that. [14:07] *** lothlorien has joined #lounge [14:07] <Aislinn> DD, absolutely [14:07] <bookworm1102> anything, just to be DD eyes in the minstery someone close to fudge [14:07] <Aislinn> hi lothlorien [14:07] <Poet> Yes, I think Dumbledore used some sort of protective magic barrier [14:07] <Theoriser> hi lothlorien [14:07] <lothlorien> Hi everyone! [14:07] <janieb> great point, sooner [14:08] <bemused> It sounds similar, but with Vernon it was coming instinctively from Harry, in this case I think it was DD [14:08] <SoonerGryffindor> I agree bemused [14:08] <Spectre> it also reminds me on how Quirrell's hands were burnt when he tried to touch Harry [14:08] <SoonerGryffindor> DD did something [14:08] <Aislinn> it does seem a bit like when Vernon grabbed...what bemused said smile [14:08] <fawkes28> i think this event really shows us the kind of person she is if she is willing to shake a student eyebrow [14:08] <MrMcGonagall> Marietta didn't seem to be all that cognizant of what was going on. [14:09] <bookworm1102> maybe the both did Accedental magic [14:09] <Aislinn> I don't think it was accidental in this instance [14:09] <janieb> Is this the first time we've ever seen DD angry? [14:09] <Aislinn> I think DD made sure that Umbridge did not harm Marietta [14:09] <Kneazly> Yeah Mr mcG--after the memory charm she didn't seem much bothered by anything [14:09] <MrMcGonagall> No, there was when he stunned the impostor Moody [14:09] <bemused> No - end of GoF, when he bursts in - yes Mr M!! [14:09] <fawkes28> i am sure he did, Aislinn [14:09] <bookworm1102> i dont thik so janieb [14:09] <fawkes28> he doesnt trust Umbridge one bit [14:09] <janieb> Thanks, Mr. McGonagall--I couldnt' remember [14:10] <MrMcGonagall> I think it was almost reflexive magic on DD's part. [14:10] <fawkes28> but we don't see him get angry often [14:10] <Spectre> Umbridge has "been burned" after some Kingsley's movement, so maybe they did something together? [14:10] <bemused> he saves it for best, fawkes! [14:10] <bookworm1102> agreed Mr. mcg he was just protecting a student [14:10] <Aislinn> I think it all appears that way with DD, Mr M, as he is such a great wizard [14:10] <Theoriser> It’s been said Dumbledore’s character becomes more real in this book. His flaws as to how he relates to Harry are revealed. He becomes more and more like a real parent, in ways, learning (and sometimes failing) to relate to a teenager. When he takes on Fudge, Umbridge and other members of the Ministry it is quite an accomplishment. What does this scene tell us about Dumbledore at *this* point? (Chamber 007). [14:10] <janieb> I love his protection of his students! [14:11] <fawkes28> It shows exactly why Voldemort is afraid of him [14:11] <Spectre> Dumbledore shows that he's willing to protect his cause, no matter who stands against him [14:11] <Aislinn> that he is struggling to do the right thing and make the right choices in an incredibly difficult situation [14:11] <bemused> He is really on top of his game - the way he handles Fudge, et al, is brilliant [14:11] <janieb> I felt like I was seeing just below the tip of his magical iceberg [14:11] <fawkes28> It also showed me that he always carries this power with him but he rarely chooses to use it which makes him even more so humble and honorable [14:12] <bookworm1102> in a way it shows that DD is also human not this perfect powerful wizard [14:12] <MrMcGonagall> Dd's chief concern is and always has been his students and their human and magical development. [14:12] <SoonerGryffindor> This is one of those scenes where you realize that DD is not just for show. He really is a formidable opponent [14:12] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M [14:12] <janieb> Well said, Mr. Mc [14:12] <Poet> Its also where things swing back his direction. You see him once again in a position of "giving orders" to Fudge [14:12] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, Dd doesn't take orders from anybody. [14:12] <Aislinn> his ability to overcome that many wizards and get away without really harming anyone did show his vast magical ability [14:13] <janieb> Nice insight, Poet [14:13] <MrMcGonagall> He's acquiesced and played along with the Ministry decrees long enough. [14:13] <lothlorien> It is also one of the first times we see DD ready to sacrifice all for his students. [14:13] <Kneazly> DD has a strong moral compass to make the right decisions so quickly, and without harming anyone [14:13] <Theoriser> "There's things more importan' than keepin' a job," Hagrid observes. But in other books he's been heard to say, "More'n me job's worth" over several things. Why the change of heart now? Did the Trio miss a THIPS with this statement? (Room 18–The Atrium) [14:13] <bemused> And with it all he manages to be courteous, and funny [14:13] <fawkes28> he takes justice into his own hands when justice fails to exist [14:13] <MrMcGonagall> It's as though he's said, "OK, enough of this charade." [14:13] <Aislinn> well said kneazly [14:13] <SoonerGryffindor> He's never had a brother before [14:14] *** Expelliarmas has joined #lounge [14:14] <Aislinn> I think it illustrates just how important Grawp is to him [14:14] <Spectre> Parallels with Ernie MacMillan's "There are more important things than OWLs" [14:14] <Spectre> in a way [14:14] <SoonerGryffindor> Hagrid has his priorities straight [14:14] <Aislinn> as we've seen how important his position at Hogwarts is to him [14:14] <Aislinn> yes [14:14] <Poet> And its been a long time since Hogwarts itself was threatened. If Hogwarts stops being the place he loved, then whats the point being a teacher there. This he knows. [14:14] <MrMcGonagall> Prior to this, there hasn't been anything more important to Hagrid that Hogwarts. However, Grawp and the Order and the fight against evil are obviously more important at this point. [14:15] <janieb> so true, Aislinn [14:15] <SoonerGryffindor> well, you even see Harry not wanting to be at Hogwarts anymore [14:15] <bemused> There may be a diffrence in his mind between Hogwarts with DD and Hogwarts without [14:15] <Aislinn> that's a good point [14:15] <bemused> Hagrid's loyalty is to DD [14:15] <lothlorien> Hagrid has spent all his adult life pouring his love into his creatures. This is one of the first times he has a family member to love [14:15] <MrMcGonagall> Very much so [14:16] <Theoriser> Was it ethical of Harry to invade Snape’s memories? [14:16] <lothlorien> The loyalty thing works both ways, too, bemused. [14:16] <Spectre> Oh, the SWM part begins smile [14:16] <MrMcGonagall> No, even Harry knew it was deeply unethical. [14:16] <SoonerGryffindor> I refuse to assign a code of ethics to this [14:16] <Kneazly> Hogwarts is very much Hagrid's home though. Where else would he go? Yet he still sees Grawp as more important. [14:16] <bemused> No, Theoriser [14:16] <Spectre> Harry already invaded some memories without asking, in GoF... [14:16] <bemused> but he had to do it in order for us to see them! [14:16] <Kneazly> Definitely not, Theoriser. He was behaving as badly as James was toward Snape. [14:16] <Aislinn> This is something he had done before, and was not reprimanded in any real way by Dumbledore This post has been edited by Aislinn: Jun 9 2007, 02:33 PM |
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Jun 9 2007, 02:34 PM
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Chief Cat Herder Posts: 3,514 Joined: 10:28am August 6, 2005 Location: In the Corner Booth - home of the elusive Holy Grain! |
[14:16] <Poet> Harry's looked in others memories before. It's not right...
[14:16] <fawkes28> No, it was not - but we love Harry because he is not perfect [14:17] *** bookworm1102 has quit [Bye] [14:17] <Aislinn> In fact, Dumbledore told him that curiosity was not a crime, or words to that effect [14:17] <MrMcGonagall> He knew he oughtn't to do it, but he did it anyway. Curiosity overrode his moral instinct. [14:17] <janieb> Sooner--this particular instance or entering the Pensieve in general? [14:17] <fawkes28> i think his curiosity is important - yes, Aislinn [14:17] <SoonerGryffindor> It was foolish yes, but I dont see how it could be called unethical. [14:17] <Kneazly> But this time he knew what he was doing--it even says it was rahs [14:17] <Kneazly> rash [14:17] <SoonerGryffindor> both janie [14:17] <bemused> Yes Aislinn, but do you think he doubted for a mintue that Snape would not have agreed [14:17] <lothlorien> If Harry has a flaw, it is curiosity and his impulsive desire to act on it. [14:17] <Theoriser> If Snape was not snooping on the Marauders, then how was it possible for the memory to replay what the Marauders were saying? [14:17] <Aislinn> not at all, bemused [14:17] <Poet> Harry didn't care if he kept in Snape's good graces, so he had nothing to lose. [14:18] *** bookworm1102 has joined #lounge [14:18] <fawkes28> Snape was right there [14:18] <lothlorien> Hi, bookworm! [14:18] <SoonerGryffindor> there was at one time a thread in Magical Theory about this, but Jo has said that the pensieve works like a video recorder [14:18] <fawkes28> and it shows the scene objectively how it happened [14:18] <Aislinn> he doesn't trust snape at all, and so finding out more information about him seemed worth the risk [14:18] <MrMcGonagall> It's rather like using legilimency on a defenseless person. Only an extreme situation could justify it. [14:18] <Poet> I liked how Jo explained that it was like a recording of everything going on around Snape, even the stuff Snape didn't remember [14:18] <SoonerGryffindor> right [14:18] <Kneazly> Or reading someone else's diary, in our world--it's definitley out of bounds [14:19] <bookworm1102> sorry guys what was the question agan my computer thought it would be funny to kick me off at a random time [14:19] <Theoriser> that would make sense [14:19] <Poet> aww [14:19] <janieb> I find thos parameters helpful, Mr. Mc [14:19] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, even the things one may only note sub-consciously. [14:19] <Theoriser> here's a repeat of the question - If Snape was not snooping on the Marauders, then how was it possible for the memory to replay what the Marauders were saying? [14:19] <Aislinn> but in a struggle that can be considered a war, spying on people one does not trust is part of the strategy [14:19] <bookworm1102> thanks [14:19] <Spectre> so it's possible to extract a memory into the Pensieve and then re-remember it in full details? [14:20] <MrMcGonagall> Yep, Spectre. [14:20] <MrMcGonagall> That's how it works. [14:20] <SoonerGryffindor> Evidentally, its possible to hear things that you never even knew you heard in the frst place [14:20] <Kneazly> he must have been close enough to subconsciously hear what they were saying? [14:20] <bookworm1102> maybe they were just talking really loud [14:20] <Spectre> I wonder if Snape used it in that way [14:20] <fawkes28> so are you saying that Harry's actions are justified, Aislinn, if they were for the greater good? [14:20] <Spectre> I doubt Lupin would talk *so* loud about his furry little problem smile [14:20] <bemused> From the way JKR describes it I don't think it implies anything about what Snape was doing [14:21] <bookworm1102> thats true [14:21] <SoonerGryffindor> well, it was Sirius and James talking about it [14:21] <Aislinn> depends, fawkes [14:21] <bemused> it's really a convenient device enabling her to describe a scene [14:21] <Aislinn> I agree, bemused [14:21] *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge [14:21] <fawkes28> hey NYB [14:21] *** NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [14:21] *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge [14:21] <Aislinn> we don't really have information one way or the other about what snape's motivations were in heading in the direction he did [14:22] <Theoriser> Lupin could have kept James and Sirius from bullying Snape, but determinedly kept his nose in a book and ignored them. Why didn’t Lupin intervene? What did you make of his behavior? [14:22] <Aislinn> He could have just coincidentally ended up near the Marauders, or it could have been deliberate [14:22] <SoonerGryffindor> This was Lupin's weakness exposed in this scene [14:22] <MrMcGonagall> Had trouble standing up to his friends. [14:22] <bemused> I think Lupin is too indescure about himslef to risk his friendship [14:22] <Expelliarmas> Lupin was afraid of offending his two best friends [14:22] <bemused> *insecure [14:22] <Aislinn> It really bugs me that people think that Lupin is responsible for his friends' behavior [14:22] <MrMcGonagall> He's no Neville! LOL [14:22] <fawkes28> i think by now that Lupin has learned that if James and Sirius are determined to torture Snape, that they were going to do it with or without his input [14:22] <Aislinn> they are old enough to be responsible for their own behavior [14:22] <fawkes28> what is the point of him speaking up then? there isn't a point [14:23] <bookworm1102> maybe he too has a secret grudge against snape that we dont know about and in later years forgot about it [14:23] <bemused> No, aislinn, he's not responsible for their behaviour - but maybe for his own in not stopping them [14:23] <SoonerGryffindor> Lupin had not learned the lesson that Neville had already mastered at age 11 [14:23] <Aislinn> stopping them implies that he has control over them [14:23] <bemused> when he clearly didn't like what they were doing [14:23] <Poet> Lupin was used to this sort of behavior. Just look at all the card in the Filch's box (in Book 6) with Sirius and James' name on them [14:23] <bemused> Sorry, wrong word [14:23] <Expelliarmas> No, I think Lupin was just afraid of standing up to his friends. What if they decided they didn't like him anymore. He had no friends before, so these two were very important to him [14:24] <bemused> objecting to them - as Lily did [14:24] <NYBookworm> I think that's waht keeps bullies going no one having the courage to tell them that waht they are doing was wrong, so I can see attributing some blame to Lupin and anyone around them who (unblike Lily) were unwilling to say that this wasn't ok [14:24] <Aislinn> yes he could have been more active and less passive in his objection [14:24] <SoonerGryffindor> I am not saying he was responsible, but it does show a weakness in his character [14:24] <Poet> Right - reminds me of Hermione [14:24] <Aislinn> but he is not responsible for their actions [14:24] <Expelliarmas> Lupin was a prefect, he was supposed to stand up for Snape [14:24] <lothlorien> Maybe he can't risk offending James and Sirius because they know his secret.\ [14:24] <SoonerGryffindor> yes Expie, he was entrusted with that duty and failed [14:24] <bookworm1102> maybe he knew lily was watching and that she would stop it so he wouldn't have too [14:24] <fawkes28> really, expie? - i think he just gave up on James and Sirius - not necessarily because he was afraid [14:24] <Aislinn> that is his weakness, yes lothlorien [14:24] <Spectre> he could at least take points... [14:24] <Aislinn> his self esteem is deeply affected by the fact that he has this problem [14:25] <Theoriser> maybe he had tried to stand up against them before, and realised he couldn't do anything [14:25] <SoonerGryffindor> the bottom line is that it shows how remarkable Neville was back in his first year that he stood up to the trio and Lupin who was a prefect and already in 5th year did not [14:25] <Poet> I agree fawkes28 . It was the end of the school year and at that point Lupin was probably tired of telling them to knock it off [14:25] <Expelliarmas> No, fawkes, he didn't want to lose James and Sirius. I don't know he respected either James or Sirius enough. I doubt they would have dumped Lupin for tellig them off [14:25] <fawkes28> but their 5th year, i think Lupin knew they were loyal to him no matter what [14:25] <lothlorien> yes, sooner [14:25] <Aislinn> and a part of him still can't believe that people would like him, given that "flaw" [14:25] <MrMcGonagall> Being James and Sirius' friend ws obviously a lot more important to him than his prefect duties. And who could blame him, really? [14:25] <bemused> He knew they were doing wrong and he should have said so, he didn't because he didn't want to annoy them [14:25] <Aislinn> I don't think that is something you can just turn off [14:25] <Spectre> Marauders have already become animagi, showing their loyalty [14:25] <SoonerGryffindor> I like to think that Lupin learned something from this [14:25] <Theoriser> Peter was a fanboy and his face showed his excitement at the pending bullying of Snape. What did you think of him in this memory? [14:25] <Aislinn> it permeates every part of his existence [14:25] <Aislinn> he has to live with it all the time [14:26] <MrMcGonagall> Odious little slug. [14:26] <Kneazly> I think they would have listened to Lupin, perhaps because he doesn't often speak up against them, but I think he felt he couldn't take the risk of losing their friendship. Maybe it reflects on why Sirius and Lupin each thought the other was the spy before James \and Lily's deaths [14:26] <fawkes28> Peter made himself look even more pathetic in my eyes [14:26] <Expelliarmas> I despise Peter. [14:26] <bemused> Peter is never very appealing... [14:26] <bemused> wormtail sums it up, really [14:26] <SoonerGryffindor> Let me say that I think SWM shows character flaws of each person. For Peter, it was getting to see his sadistic pleasure in someone else's pain [14:26] <Poet> I was a bit surprised. You'd think his fan-boy attitude would have worn off by then. Afterall, they were 5th years. [14:26] <fawkes28> he clearly showed that he was desperate for their attention, especially James [14:26] <bookworm1102> i think that they only kept peter around b/c he was easy to impress [14:26] <Spectre> Reminds me of Colin Creevey, in a way, though Colin wasn't SO adoring [14:26] <Theoriser> good point sooner [14:26] <MrMcGonagall> Gave us a good idea of what attracted him to the DEs. [14:27] <Expelliarmas> It seems the future Death Eaters seem to get a kick out of causing pain [14:27] <lothlorien> Peter enjoys just being near people who have power over others and the popularity to get away with it. [14:27] <Theoriser> Lily intervened three times on Snape’s behalf. What did you think of her in this memory? [14:27] <bemused> I suppose he flattered their egos - and was useful for getting into small places [14:27] <Spectre> Wormtail actually laughed at Snape's pain [14:27] <NYBookworm> she reminded me of ginny [14:27] <Kneazly> I think we're definitely meant to admire Lily [14:27] <lothlorien> A lot of Ginny! [14:27] <SoonerGryffindor> She was very outspoken [14:27] <bookworm1102> exactly NYB [14:28] <SoonerGryffindor> I also sense that she was rather used to getting her way as well [14:28] <Aislinn> I think she was acting more maturely than the boys, which is typical for girls at that age [14:28] <fawkes28> it showed that she was kind [14:28] <Spectre> And she had compassion for the weak [14:28] <bemused> I really admired Lily and she reminded me of Ginny - until she hit out at Snape (verbally) and even used the 'Snivellus' against him [14:28] <lothlorien> She did not appreciate being called a mudblood, though, who would? [14:28] <janieb> Yes, NYB and Lothlorien [14:28] <MrMcGonagall> I agree, Aislinn. [14:28] <bemused> that I didn't admire [14:28] <Aislinn> ginny would have done the same, bemused [14:28] <SoonerGryffindor> At least someone knew how to act like a prefect [14:28] <fawkes28> and that she was not impressed by James - which was quite interesting to see [14:28] <Aislinn> she has quite the sharp tongue [14:28] <bemused> I'm not sure that she would, Aislinn [14:29] <lothlorien> Ginny would have used her Bat Bogey Hex [14:29] <Spectre> well, Ron and Hermione also fought all the way... so... smile [14:29] <Theoriser> At the third try to help Snape, he calls Lily a Mudblood and tells her he doesn’t need her help. Given that no one else watching this scene lifted a finger to help him, why did he insult Lily? [14:29] <Aislinn> think about her reaction to Zacharias [14:29] <janieb> *grin* Aislinn [14:29] <bemused> there was real cruelty in that, to my mind [14:29] <Kneazly> It didn't bother me that she reacted to Snape's name-calling--who wouldn't? [14:29] <fawkes28> pride [14:29] <bookworm1102> to hid his feelings for hersmile [14:29] <fawkes28> he didnt want help [14:29] <fawkes28> or pity [14:29] <Aislinn> he called he something much worse than she retorted [14:29] <SoonerGryffindor> Here we get to see Snape's bitterness [14:29] <Aislinn> *her [14:29] <Poet> I agree. What 15-16 year old guy wants a girl intervening for him? [14:29] <Spectre> also he didn't want rumors [14:29] <Expelliarmas> No way Snape could accept help from Lily in front of his pureblood Slytherin gang [14:29] <lothlorien> embarassment made him need to create distance [14:29] <bemused> I think that was Snape losing it - as we've seen before [14:29] <Kneazly> it was his way of trying to gain control of the situation, to make it look like he wasn't just a victim [14:30] <fawkes28> exactly, poet [14:30] <bemused> Hurt pride, embarrassment [14:30] <Aislinn> yes kneazly [14:30] <lothlorien> He was angry and hurt. [14:30] <Expelliarmas> One thing to take abuse from a couple of purebloods, but Lily? Not a chance [14:30] <MrMcGonagall> He's mortified by this humiliation and lashes out. I don't think it really had anything to do with Lily herself. [14:30] <SoonerGryffindor> too bad he was too prideful and bitter to accept her help. [14:30] <NYBookworm> he did what he ahd to save face (couldn't have a girl and one who wasn't a pureblood) who he shoudn't like saving him [14:30] <lothlorien> He couldn't let anyone see that he cared for her, especially Lily. [14:30] <Poet> I like that idea lothlorien [14:30] <bemused> But he didn't seem to have a gang there, Expie - he seemed very much alone [14:30] <Theoriser> Snape tried a sneak attack on James. What spell do you think he used to draw blood from James? [14:30] <bookworm1102> i think it was more pride i mean the maurders were already giving him grief in front of the whole school it would have been even worse if he let lily stand up for him [14:31] <lothlorien> I'll bet it was one of his biggest regrets later. [14:31] <Poet> Sectumsempra? [14:31] <Spectre> Sectumsempra [14:31] <SoonerGryffindor> totally [14:31] <lothlorien> Yes. [14:31] <bookworm1102> that spell harry found HPB [14:31] <janieb> yes [14:31] <Kneazly> and nonverbal, too! [14:31] <SoonerGryffindor> and we see that Sectumsempra can be very precise if the person using it knows what they are doing [14:31] <MrMcGonagall> Pretty daring and violent move to use. [14:31] <bookworm1102> if it was non verbal than snape is more powerful the we thought [14:31] <Spectre> Or maybe some experimental version of SS that didn't cause SO much harm [14:32] <Aislinn> very violent move to make, yes Mr M [14:32] <Expelliarmas> Snape was thinking about spells for "enemies" little doubt who he had in mind [14:32] <Kneazly> Upped the ante, didn't it [14:32] <Theoriser> Snape blew a gasket when he found Harry in his memory. Why did he leave the Pensieve laying about? Did he intend Harry to see James in a bad light? What did you think of Snape manhandling Harry out of his office? [14:32] <lothlorien> You know, if James and Sirius had been a little more mature, and Snape...well...a little less snivelly, then they might have been good friends. As far as magical power and ability go, they are really equals. [14:32] <bookworm1102> mybe in a way that was a clue for HPB you know if we saw harry use it then rembered snape used somthing simillar in the memory [14:33] <Spectre> I wonder if he'd ever tried Langlock. Much more violent for Marauders biggrin [14:33] <fawkes28> He could never view Harry objectively - he assumed that Harry was up to no good [14:33] <bemused> He wasn't expecting to be called out of the office, and when it happened it was all quite rushed [14:33] <fawkes28> and that Harry was going to hurt him [14:33] <lothlorien> It was better to manhandle him out than to trust himself to use magic on Harry as angry as he was. [14:33] <bookworm1102> he wanted to get harry out befe he asked questions and he probably showed it on purpose [14:34] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think he left it on purpose. To me, the biggest question has always been why this memory was one he didn't want Harry to see. [14:34] <fawkes28> So Snape had the mentality - "Let me hurt him, before he hurts me." [14:34] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape's reaction was too genuine for this to be a set up [14:34] <Spectre> He didn't even tell Harry "Don't touch it, Potter" or something along the line... [14:34] <bemused> I don't think he meant Harry to see it because of the way he reacted when he came back [14:34] <janieb> Excellent questions, Mr. Mc [14:34] <MrMcGonagall> If it portrayed James' in such a bad light, why not just leave it in his head, in case Harry broke through in the lesson. [14:34] <bookworm1102> i some twisted way fawkes [14:34] <fawkes28> i agree, bemused [14:34] <MrMcGonagall> It's about way more than James. [14:34] <Theoriser> Why did the Toad pick so many Slytherins for the Inquisitorial Squad? Do you think it considered students from other Houses? [14:35] <bemused> Yes Mr M - I think it has to be to do with Lily [14:35] <Poet> It showed that Lily was kind to Snape and he was mean back. It also showed Snape weak. [14:35] <Spectre> Maybe, Dumbledore told him? [14:35] <janieb> Did we miss anything in the viewing? [14:35] <Kneazly> I think he didn't want Harry to see it because of the humiliation of the scene--far harder to get over than other things I think [14:35] <bookworm1102> she knew she had their support [14:35] <NYBookworm> I think she's a slytherin herself and therfore slightly biased towards them [14:35] <lothlorien> She is definitely Slytherin material herself. [14:35] <Spectre> Umbridge is in touch with Malfoy... and probably was a Slytherin in her school years [14:35] <MrMcGonagall> Slytherins would be her natural allies in this endeavor. [14:35] <lothlorien> They "suck up" to her. [14:35] <Aislinn> she was a Slytherin, and knew that they would be loyal to her [14:35] <fawkes28> i think she wanted people who didnt like Harry [14:35] <bemused> Because Lusius sucks up to the Ministry she sees Draco as a loyal student and the Is are really his gang [14:35] <fawkes28> and there is a whole house filled with them [14:35] <bemused> *Lucius [14:36] <Theoriser> If the Inquisitorial Squad is in power, then what’s the point of the prefects? Do they still matter? Why did the Toad not dissolve them? [14:36] <lothlorien> I still wonder if she is a DE [14:36] <MrMcGonagall> Except that they weren't really loyal to her. They simply saw a chance to exercise power over their peers. [14:36] <Spectre> Interesting that Rita *also* used Slytherins in GoF to get dirty rumours... [14:36] <lothlorien> She would have if they were interfering with her. [14:36] <lothlorien> Good point Spectre [14:36] *** NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [14:36] <Spectre> She just didn't have time for the new decree biggrin [14:37] <Aislinn> the prefects are completely ineffectual in this new "world order" [14:37] <fawkes28> she was just trying to show off how much power she had over hogwarts [14:37] <bookworm1102> im sorry guys but i gotta go so ill talk to you guys later [14:37] <Spectre> bye bookworm [14:37] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [14:37] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [14:37] <fawkes28> bye bookworm [14:37] <Poet> Just like she set up herself in a new position, she made a new position parallel to the prefects [14:37] <SoonerGryffindor> bye bookworm [14:37] *** bookworm1102 left #lounge [] [14:37] <Expelliarmas> She kept the prefect system to give the parents the impression that everything was the same as before [14:37] <MrMcGonagall> It's the way Umbridge rolls. She doesn't want to appear to be re-inventing the wheel, but all the while she is undermining the school structure. [14:37] <Poet> I agree that eventually she would have said that the prefects were interfering - then she would have gotten rid of them [14:37] <bemused> Yes - and if things had gone her way she might have been willing to use them in a lesser capacity [14:37] * SoonerGryffindor fangirls Ernie McMillan in this chapter [14:37] <Theoriser> Before Montague could take points from Fred and George, they stuffed him into the Vanishing Cabinet on the 1st floor. What did you think of their actions? Was it ethical? [14:37] <janieb> Well put, Expie and Mr.Mc [14:38] <fawkes28> nicely said, Mr. M [14:38] <Spectre> Everything is ethical in those circimstances... same things as Dumbledore and Kingsley [14:38] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, I think it was ethical. [14:38] <Spectre> though it was obviously dangerous [14:38] <bemused> Not really, but then, it is Fred and George [14:38] <lothlorien> Strictly speaking, of course! All is fair in love and war. This was rapidly becoming war. [14:38] <MrMcGonagall> I wonder what an ordinary Vanishing Cabinet does? [14:39] <Spectre> nobody knew where Montague would have ended up [14:39] <SoonerGryffindor> It was completely unethical [14:39] <Expelliarmas> I thought "well done" and laughed when I read what they did to Montague [14:39] <lothlorien> Where did he end up? I forget. [14:39] <fawkes28> well, it could have prevented a lot of things if they hadnt done that [14:39] <Expelliarmas> Honestly, what kind of moron is Montague [14:39] <bemused> I suppose if it hadn't been broken he'd have ended up in Knockturn Alley [14:39] <janieb> I understand why bthey put him in there--but to not follow up somehow was wrong [14:39] <Spectre> in a toilet on 4th floor, no? smile [14:39] <fawkes28> borgin and burke's , lothlorien [14:39] <Aislinn> it was another form of civil disobedience [14:39] <lothlorien> Thanks. [14:39] <Aislinn> completely unfair system is put in place, and they are not standing for it [14:39] <lothlorien> Yes, Aislinn. [14:40] <Poet> I agree janieb. Though it was a good way to hide their actions while they got away from the scene of their crime [14:40] <Spectre> a THIPS we have here, with breaking the Cabinet? [14:40] <Theoriser> Montague turns up days later in a toilet on the 4th floor. How does this information gibe with what we learned from Draco on the Astronomy Tower in HBP? [14:40] <SoonerGryffindor> they could have killed him [14:40] <fawkes28> yes, spectre - a huge THIPS [14:40] <MrMcGonagall> A lot of it depends on what a Vanishing Cabinet ordinarily does. Did Fred and George know it would endanger the life of Montague? [14:40] <Aislinn> not as a wizard, sooner [14:40] <fawkes28> nope - they arent evil [14:40] <Aislinn> people can get splinched, and not suffer lasting effects [14:41] <Aislinn> so, floating in a cabinet is not all that harmful [14:41] <SoonerGryffindor> He was so damaged he was in the hospital wing for a while [14:41] <Expelliarmas> Montague went looking for trouble with the Twins, he got what he got [14:41] <MrMcGonagall> There's a great thread on this in Magical Theory, about how Montague could apparate into Hogwarts. [14:41] <janieb> I don't think they knew, I don't think they were concerned about knowing [14:41] <MrMcGonagall> Or even within Hogwarts. [14:41] <Aislinn> he was disoriented [14:41] <SoonerGryffindor> yes there is, and that thread makes my brain hurt sometimes [14:41] <MrMcGonagall> LOL [14:41] <MrMcGonagall> Me too [14:41] <Theoriser> disappearing for a few days seems pretty dangerous to me [14:42] <SoonerGryffindor> I still think there was real danger to Montague. It was not for Fred and George to decide his punishment [14:42] <bemused> Doesn't Hermione say that they could have killed him? [14:42] <MrMcGonagall> Maybe the dangerous and random re-apparition of Montague was part of the Hogwarts defenses kicking in. [14:42] <janieb> me too, Theoriser [14:42] <lothlorien> This is likely where Draco first thought of using the vanishing cabinet and remembered seeing the other one at b and b's. [14:42] <Aislinn> it wasn't punishing him, it was protecting themselves [14:42] <Poet> The cabinet let you travel between two places. I think when he tried to apparate he was closer to Knockturn Alley than to Hogwarts and the apparation sort of opened up a new end exit point instead of the cabinet. [14:42] <Theoriser> In retaliation for Dumbledore’s treatment, Fred and George decide to give the Toad a massive hard time. What did you think of their declaration of giving the Toad as much mayhem as they could do? [14:43] <Aislinn> so, there was a certain karmic consequence to the action, lothlorien [14:43] <Spectre> They chose their own way [14:43] <bemused> True Aislinn, but they are a bit inclined to do things without thinking of the consequences [14:43] <MrMcGonagall> She sooooo had it coming. [14:43] <Expelliarmas> I thought it was great. Finally the Twins are showcased [14:43] <fawkes28> they are loyal to dumbledore [14:43] <bemused> on the other hand, in answer to this question, I cheered! [14:43] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont htink protectng themselves figured into it [14:43] <Spectre> And did so superbly [14:43] <Theoriser> good point Aislinn [14:43] <fawkes28> dumbledore would have been amused [14:43] <Aislinn> I loved that they did this! [14:43] <fawkes28> plus, they knew it was time to leave and they NEVER go out quietly [14:43] <Aislinn> the best form of civil disobedience in the book [14:44] <bemused> It was jsut what the other kids needed to see [14:44] <janieb> Their wonderous mayhem is the other side of the coin--it was exactly the right thing to do [14:44] <lothlorien> Fun, Fun, Fun! I would have joined right in. I think even McGonagal felt this way. Very Proud of her underachievers... [14:44] <Poet> They have a bit of that Jack Russell terrier character in them. If you hurt them, they bite back! [14:44] <Spectre> Even Peeves was proud, I think [14:44] <Theoriser> Why couldn’t the Toad defeat their fireworks? [14:44] <Kneazly> Yeah it was great--civil disobedience, no one hurt, great fun to watch [14:44] <MrMcGonagall> Because she's inept. [14:44] <fawkes28> because she is not a good witch [14:44] <Aislinn> I don't think she is a good witch, skill-wise [14:44] <bemused> she doesn't seem to have much magic other than mean magic [14:45] <Spectre> I doubt anyone could defeat the fireworks without knowing their mechanics [14:45] <Kneazly> She can only follow the rules, can't improvise [14:45] <lothlorien> agreed with all of the above. [14:45] <Theoriser> What did you think of Hermione’s anxiety at their intentions? Why was she anxious? Was it for the twins, Hogwarts, both or something else? [14:45] <Spectre> defeat right away, I mean [14:45] <janieb> Can squibs use objects others have charmed? [14:45] <SoonerGryffindor> because Hermione is not entirely comfortable with the whole civil disobedience thing [14:45] <Expelliarmas> The Toad has little magical talent, its skills lie in politics and brutality [14:45] <Aislinn> she still struggles with breaking rules, despite the scene from the movie [14:45] <Spectre> Hermione is still trying to follow rules at that point, I think [14:45] <Kneazly> She didn't know what they were going to do--I would have been anxious too. And anxious for the twins--hermione can't imagine anything worse than being kicked out of Hogwarts [14:45] <MrMcGonagall> Hermione doesn't generally like a fuss, and this was rule-breaking on a catastrophic scale. [14:46] <Aislinn> right sooner [14:46] <bemused> Hermione has an instinctive anxiety about breaking rules - unless she's the one that's breaking them [14:46] <lothlorien> She cares so much for the Weasley family, she was concerned for what would happen to them. [14:46] <fawkes28> i think she also realized what umbridge could do to them if they got caught [14:46] <SoonerGryffindor> that too lothlorien [14:46] <lothlorien> She doesn't know they will be okay thanks to all the gold Harry gave them last year. [14:46] <Expelliarmas> I think she was more worried for the Twins, even though they were not [14:46] *** becky920 has joined #lounge [14:46] <Kneazly> True lothlorien [14:46] <bemused> Yes, fawkes, I agree [14:46] <Aislinn> hi becky [14:46] <Spectre> would Umbridge actually ask the Ministry to prosecute (sp?) the Weasleys for their actions? [14:46] <Kneazly> Hi Becky [14:46] <MrMcGonagall> not finishing school is incomprehensible to Hermione. [14:46] <becky920> I'm a little late to the party... are we having fun? [14:46] <Spectre> *could [14:46] <janieb> hi becky [14:47] <SoonerGryffindor> I bet she would spectre [14:47] <fawkes28> no, i think she would take matters into her own hands, spectre [14:47] <Spectre> hi becky [14:47] <bemused> I think she also finds it hard to imagine anyone wanting to leave school before their time [14:47] <Theoriser> What did you make of Hermione’s reaction to the fireworks? [14:47] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think so, because it reflects poorly on her ability to manage the school. [14:47] <fawkes28> i think she would do something even worse than her horrible pen that she used with harry [14:47] <Kneazly> Perfect [14:47] <janieb> she does worry for them--she could become Hermywobbles [14:47] <SoonerGryffindor> also, Hermione is a lot like Molly. She react the same as Molly would a lot of the tme [14:47] <SoonerGryffindor> snap Janie! [14:47] <Kneazly> She was admiring their skill [14:47] <MrMcGonagall> I believe Hermione thought, "Well, if they're going to do it, at least they've done it in grand style." [14:47] <bemused> It was nice to see her enjoy them [14:47] <janieb> snap Sooner! [14:48] <Spectre> She admired F&G's skills several times in the later books [14:48] <Expelliarmas> Hermione can't help but be impressed with their magical abilities, she respects that ability [14:48] <Aislinn> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. Don't forget to vote in the latest poll for the next WWW chat [14:48] <lothlorien> Hermoine would definitely prefer to keep their involvement more subversive and under the radar...nothing so obvious that they all get caught. [14:48] <Theoriser> Cho sticks up for Marietta (it was just a mistake). Did you agree or disagree with that? [14:48] <MrMcGonagall> Cho is a twit. [14:48] <Spectre> She's loyal to her friend [14:49] <SoonerGryffindor> I lauged about it because I knew that was the end of Cho/Harry. Thank goodness [14:49] <Expelliarmas> Admirable she would stick up for her friend, but really Cho sold them all out [14:49] <Spectre> More than to the DA... [14:49] <Expelliarmas> sorry, Marietta [14:49] <Kneazly> Loyal to a friend, but shouldn not have been loyal to the behavior--have we seen that before? [14:49] <MrMcGonagall> Somehow it's OK because nobody got hurt? I don't think so. [14:49] <bemused> From the outside I disagreed, but it was only natural for her to stick up for her friend [14:49] <janieb> Did onayone else turn pink when the Catherine wheel and the rocket collided? [14:49] <becky920> She could have been expelled because of her so-called friend! [14:49] <bemused> and she may have had more insight into Marietta's reasons than we do [14:49] <Kneazly> I still don't really understand why Marietta did it [14:50] <Expelliarmas> I think she wanted to explain Marietta's behavior first and when Harry wasn't having it she got defensive [14:50] <Theoriser> Harry reminds Cho that Marietta sold them all out and he thought Hermione’s jinx was brilliant. What did you think? Did he have a valid point for being angry? [14:50] <lothlorien> Standing up to this kind of evil is scary. I may have been Cho's way of saying, "I'm scared by what we're doing too. I understand." [14:50] <Spectre> Did they (Cho and Marietta) ever discuss the betrayal? [14:50] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, he did! [14:50] <Aislinn> completely valid [14:50] <bemused> Yes, I think he did [14:50] <Expelliarmas> Harry was likely flabbergasted that Cho would defend Marietta and let her have it [14:51] <lothlorien> Yes, the honeymoon is over for Harry. [14:51] <Kneazly> Hermione's jinx was brilliant. [14:51] <MrMcGonagall> it doesn't seem like there ever was a honeymoon. [14:51] <Spectre> Harry has a history with traitors... Wormtail... [14:51] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry finally sees that it takes more than physical attraction to make a relationship work' [14:51] <lothlorien> His feelings for her I meant [14:51] <Expelliarmas> Those two could never get on track [14:51] <lothlorien> True, Sooner. [14:51] <becky920> He had a point, but he should have known Cho would be jealous (still) of Hermione -- that said, she needed to get a grip [14:51] <janieb> yes Lothlorien--this was the point of no return [14:51] <Spectre> so for him, any treachery is unacceptable, I think [14:52] <Theoriser> Filch is now openly in cahoots with the Toad. Why? Why wasn’t he loyal to Dumbledore? [14:52] <Kneazly> Marietta had to choose between what was right and what was easy, and bungled it [14:52] <lothlorien> Harry has faced so much teachery and betrayal, He can't accept it from people who should be his friends. [14:52] <SoonerGryffindor> DD could not give him what he wants [14:52] <MrMcGonagall> Umbridge will give him greater scope for his appetites, as LV to the dementors. [14:53] <bemused> Umbridge is offereing him the kind of nasty opportunites he wants [14:53] <Aislinn> Umbridge's values seem much closer to his own [14:53] <Spectre> Filch was loyal to his job more than to Dumbledore [14:53] <Kneazly> Yes Mr mcG [14:53] <lothlorien> Filch always thought DD should be more strict with rules and rule-breakers. [14:53] <fawkes28> Filch likes her because she is very harsh with the students - he despises the students [14:53] <Expelliarmas> Where else could a dirtbag like Filch get a job but for Dumbledore employing him. Hateful man. [14:53] <Kneazly> Would he be a DE if he weren't a squib? [14:53] <bemused> I think he'd have been loyal as long as DD was there [14:53] <becky920> Filch was probably taking advantage of Dumbledore's protection, but never really liked him [14:53] <janieb> great simile, Mr. Mc [14:53] <bemused> which isn't really loyalty [14:53] <SoonerGryffindor> gotta run, catch everyone later [14:53] <Theoriser> The Toad promised Filch Decree #29 which would allow for students to be whipped. What did you think of this as an accepted punishment at Hogwarts? [14:53] *** SoonerGryffindor has quit [Bye] [14:53] <fawkes28> true bemused [14:53] <Spectre> Filch sees it as sort of revenge on the magical folk... [14:54] <bemused> Totally unacceptable [14:54] <fawkes28> She is a sick woman [14:54] <MrMcGonagall> Pretty indicatie of how Umbridge runs thigns. [14:54] <Aislinn> anyone who would use a pen like hers would think nothing of whipping students [14:54] <Spectre> The old English boarding school rules... [14:54] <bemused> True, Aislinn [14:54] <janieb> that was so scarey--shows how quickly hatred can grow [14:54] <fawkes28> truly she wants to feel good about herself and have some control in her life [14:54] <Expelliarmas> It says a lot about the Toad and how low it will sink [14:54] <becky920> Whipping's mild by comparison [14:54] <bemused> they didn't use whips, Spectre!! [14:54] <Kneazly> Umbridge is defintely twisted [14:54] <Spectre> ...and Russian too, if I remember correctly [14:54] <fawkes28> i think the pen is worse than whipping though [14:54] <lothlorien> The pen is mightier than the sword seems to take on a whole new meaning in Toad's case... [14:55] <fawkes28> nicely put, lothlorien [14:55] <Kneazly> Lol lothlorien [14:55] <Theoriser> The Toad summoned Harry to its office and insisted on having a drink with Harry. Why did Harry think of Moody just before taking a sip? Was he thinking of real or fake Moody? [14:55] <Poet> Both really [14:55] <Kneazly> Real Moody. Thank goodness he's learned something and thought first! [14:55] <Aislinn> either one would have given him the same advice, ironically enough [14:56] <bemused> Real Moody - he doesn't have the sinister edge the fake one did, and is very hot on caution [14:56] <fawkes28> very true [14:56] <Poet> Good of him to remember to not trust someone giving you a drink [14:56] <lothlorien> He has learned to be suspicious and careful. Important really. [14:56] <Expelliarmas> I think he was thinking of fake Moody's "constant vigilance" [14:56] <MrMcGonagall> The real one. The fake was just modeling the behavior of the real Moody. [14:56] <becky920> Does it matter? Either way... he's smart to be cautious [14:56] <fawkes28> so do i, expie [14:56] <becky920> Drink only from your own hip flask! [14:56] <Spectre> "Constant vigilance", yes smile [14:56] <janieb> so true, Aislinn--Barty was a pretty good teacher, inronically enough [14:56] <Spectre> I think it's both [14:56] <Spectre> both Moody's smile [14:57] <Kneazly> Umbridge does it so bumblehandedly, too--so obvious she's up to something [14:57] <Theoriser> Why did the Toad think Harry knew where Dumbledore and Sirius could be found? [14:57] <janieb> oops- sorry to be a copycat [14:57] <becky920> She's not exactly subtle, is she? [14:57] <MrMcGonagall> She thinks he's deep in their plans. [14:57] <Spectre> She probably learned about Sirius from Malfoy [14:57] *** Poet has quit [Bye] [14:57] <fawkes28> because she knew that he was close with them [14:57] <Kneazly> She thinks it's a whole big planned conspiracy [14:57] <becky920> I agree, Spectre [14:57] <Spectre> and Malfoy learned it from Kreacher at that point [14:57] <bemused> Well, she knew about Sirius from the fire episode, and Percy had probably spilled the beans about the Order [14:57] <Expelliarmas> Tht's true, Spectre [14:57] <Aislinn> she knew about sirius from the fire [14:58] <janieb> Like Fudge, she thinks other people have the same agendas that she does [14:58] <Kneazly> And of course, Harry did know where Sirius was [14:58] <Spectre> but he could not tell [14:58] <becky920> And despite Dumbledore's efforts to keep a safe distance from Harry, she must have picked up that there was some kind of something there [14:58] <Spectre> He couldn't use the name "12 Grimmauld Place" [14:58] <lothlorien> I still think this points to her possibly being a DE and a double agent and trying to learn what she can for LV [14:59] <MrMcGonagall> I think she wants to the info in order to prosecute DD and Sirius [14:59] <becky920> I think DE's are using her, but I don't think she is one [14:59] <janieb> yes, Becky [14:59] <lothlorien> Maybe Snape told her that Potter knows more than he is telling [14:59] <fawkes28> i am sure she is having influences from the ministry too trying to get her to find out info [14:59] <Expelliarmas> I think the Toad would give the Sirius info to Malfoy who would use it to get at the Order [14:59] <Spectre> and Dumbledore... Dumbledore came to testify for Harry, wasn't that enough to draw a connection? [14:59] <Kneazly> True Spectre [14:59] <Theoriser> As Harry successfully thwarted the Toad, do you think it really believed he didn’t know where either Dumbledore or Sirius were located? [14:59] <lothlorien> Oh Yes, Spectre. [15:00] <Aislinn> I think she did, at least temporarily [15:00] <Spectre> she had to believe because she thought that it was the real Veritaserum, and Harry actually drank it [15:00] <lothlorien> I love how you called her "it". lol [15:00] <becky920> She seems to be placated at least for now by the veritaserum [15:00] <bemused> She thought he was on Veritaserum, so she must have believed him [15:00] <fawkes28> in her insanity, yes i think she believed it [15:00] <Expelliarmas> I think the Toad got distracted, but thought the veritasserum worked [15:00] <janieb> lol fawkes [15:00] <Spectre> and Harry told the truth about Dumbledore biggrin [15:00] <Spectre> anyway smile [15:00] <Kneazly> She seemed a little suspicious or maybe surprised that he didn't know, but I think she believed him [15:01] <Aislinn> this has been great, everyone! [15:01] <Aislinn> Hope to see you at the next chat [15:01] <Theoriser> if she hadn't believed him she would have forced veritaserum down his throat until she did believe him [15:01] <Kneazly> She's not very observant if she didn't notice he wasn't drinking much [15:01] <fawkes28> Thanks for coming smile [15:01] <MrMcGonagall> Thanks for coming everyone! Come back tomorrow for the P3 chat! [15:01] <Spectre> the chat was great, thanks everyone smile [15:01] <Kneazly> Thanks for the chat! Bye all [15:01] <bemused> Bye everyone! thanks [15:01] *** bemused left #lounge [] [15:01] <janieb> thanks mods and staffers and posters [15:01] <becky920> always a pleasure to pop in here -- you chat mods do such a great job! [15:01] *** Kneazly left #lounge [] [15:01] <lothlorien> Bye all. Nice to chat. [15:01] *** janieb has quit [Bye] [15:02] *** becky920 left #lounge [] [15:02] <Theoriser> bye everyone, thanks for chatting smile [15:02] *** Spectre has quit [Bye] [15:02] *** Expelliarmas has quit [Bye] [15:02] *** lothlorien has quit [Bye] |
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