Reading Group Chat Transcript: 8/11/07, Overview of Deathly Hallows |
 Aug 11 2007, 02:23 PM
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Playing dominoes with the Fat Friar Posts: 2,189 Joined: 1:22pm June 3, 2006 Location: Visiting Luna to have wrackspurts removed   |
This chat was brought to you by: Aislinn cloudpic Expelliarmas Mr. McGonagall Reading Group Chat on Deathly Hallows - An Overview *** Aislinn has joined #lounge *** ascellaskat has joined #lounge *** bibs has joined #lounge <bibs> hi <Aislinn> hello bibs! <MrMcGonagall> Hi, bibs and ascellaskat! <ascellaskat> hello *** Braden has joined #lounge <Aislinn> hi ascellaskat <ascellaskat> hi <bibs> hey <Aislinn> hey Braden <MrMcGonagall> How are we all doing today? <Braden> hi <bibs> its all good <ascellaskat> doing well, how is everyone else? <Braden> fine. never done this before, so i'm checking it out *** Spectre has joined #lounge *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge <bibs> its 6:00 pm here <Spectre> Yay, back to the good old RG chat! smile <Spectre> hi all smile <MrMcGonagall> I braving the heat here in Oklahoma. Another triple-digit day. *** promom has joined #lounge *** omikse has joined #lounge <bibs> hey *** JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge *** vandy has joined #lounge <JaneMarple9> Hello all! <bibs> hi <Aislinn> hello everyone *** Granjo has joined #lounge *** Expelliarmas has joined #lounge <vandy> hiiii <MrMcGonagall> Welcome, everyone! <JaneMarple9> I've really missed this place!! w00t2 <Aislinn> yes, we've missed holding the chats *** ginginkat has joined #lounge <Aislinn> it's great to be back! <bibs> i love these chats <vandy> this is my first time here <ascellaskat> this is my first time as well <Spectre> welcome vandy! smile *** HeliumHead has joined #lounge <JaneMarple9> And me - they my my weekends! <MrMcGonagall> Yes, we're hoping to be back on a regular schedule now that Deathly Hallows is released and the Prophecy conference is over. <Spectre> and ascellaskat, too smile *** DumbleDebbie has joined #lounge <Aislinn> welcome newbies! <MrMcGonagall> Welcome, Debbie! <Braden> yep i'm an ickle firstie too <DumbleDebbie> hey there smile <bibs> i delibratly planned my meals around this chat <JaneMarple9> this is my second home at the weekends! <Aislinn> lol *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] <ascellaskat> thank you <DumbleDebbie> how's the grand road trip Mr M? <MrMcGonagall> bibs is showing the first signs of addiction. LOL <bibs> lol <MrMcGonagall> I'm finally back home in Oklahoma. Arrived yesterday evening. <DumbleDebbie> I see there's a funky new CB interface <Aislinn> if one has to be addicted to something, the Corner Booth is a great choice biggrin <MrMcGonagall> Had a wonderful visit with DMD in St. Louis on my way back. <DumbleDebbie> yay!! that's great Mr M. I know she was looking forward to it <Granjo> I thought we would never start back up. *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge <Granjo> Yay! <DumbleDebbie> ok, see if I got my color changed <DumbleDebbie> woot *** Shard has joined #lounge <bibs> i stayed up till midnight the other day for a chat that was canceled <DumbleDebbie> hmmm, didn't stick <Granjo> I have done that a few times. <MrMcGonagall> Yes, that's one of the problems with the newer interface. Colors don't stick. You can leave and re-enter using the older interface for the chat, though. <Granjo> no fun. <DumbleDebbie> OK, how do i make the text color stick in the new interface? *** bemused has joined #lounge <Spectre> brb <DumbleDebbie> ok brb <Aislinn> yes, we were very disappointed that we couldn't hold the chat last Wed. *** Spectre has quit [Bye] *** DumbleDebbie left #lounge [Leaving] <Shard> The interface changed again? <Aislinn> the topic was going to be Neville, and we will hold that chat this coming Wednesday *** Spectre has joined #lounge <MrMcGonagall> Awww, we're sorry, bibs. Sometimes the CB has a mind of its own. Snuffles likes to misbehave. <Spectre> nah, the new interface wouldn't work for me smile <bibs> i was like a zombie the next day *** DumbleDebbie has joined #lounge <bibs> i watched poa twice on the run to stay awake <Shard> Yeah but this interface you can't change anything sad <DumbleDebbie> ok how's this? <Granjo> Has Peeves changed residences? <JaneMarple9> wednesdays are no good for me....even for Neville sad <MrMcGonagall> Now it's working, Debbie! <DumbleDebbie> I like the look of the new interface but I tend to depend on the colors to keep track of who says what <MrMcGonagall> Yes, the colors are immensely helpful in following a fast moving chat! *** Kwikspell has joined #lounge <Shard> How do you change colors then? <Granjo> Me too. I miss the colors. <bibs> i dont know how to work colours <bemused> there don't seem to be any colours now, though <JaneMarple9> yes, i can't make my colours change for some reason <DumbleDebbie> you'll have to get those techy types working on that ;) <Shard> I dont even see anything to TRY to change colors with <Spectre> what are the system requirements for the new interface? biggrin <DumbleDebbie> hey bemused and Jane biggrin <MrMcGonagall> Does my text show up in red, bemused? <bemused> yes, Mr M <DumbleDebbie> long time, no type *** omikse has quit [Bye] *** omikse has joined #lounge <bemused> hello Debbie <MrMcGonagall> Yes, I'm using the older interface. The colors stick in that one. <bibs> hey <Granjo> You are sort of blue green, Bemused. <DumbleDebbie> you can set a color in the new one Shard, but it only lasts for one line of type <HeliumHead> I think that on the newer interface that you click on the "T" with a colorful box next to the smiley <JaneMarple9> your pale green writing for me Mr McG - sea green <Spectre> what are the system requirements for the new interface? biggrin <DumbleDebbie> he's red for me, weird <bibs> help!? <Aislinn> no idea, spectre <HeliumHead> but you have to do it each time <Spectre> damn, I didn't intend to repeat my phrase biggrin <DumbleDebbie> what bibs? <bemused> oh - I'm on the older interface - last time I tried the new it went wierd - but the option to change colour isn't there <JaneMarple9> very weird! <Aislinn> what do you mean by system requirements? <Shard> I have no idea how to even change the interface *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge <NYBookworm> hi <DumbleDebbie> hey NYB <Spectre> Like, Java version, or something, Aislinn <MrMcGonagall> The new one seems to work best with IE, though most of us prefer Firefox. <Aislinn> it depends on which one you picked on the sign in page shard *** JaneMarple9 has quit [Bye] <Aislinn> hi NYB *** JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge <bibs> i hav no idea with colours <Shard> I must have missed it then <bemused> I'm on IE Mr M, but the new one won't work for me <DumbleDebbie> the text link goes to the new one Shard, the button goes to the old one <MrMcGonagall> I've always been surprised that there's a way for the two interfaces to work simultaneously. <Spectre> Same here bemused <JaneMarple9> ok back again, with the old interface - the brown one <JaneMarple9> you're red for me now Mr McG *** AuroraBR has joined #lounge <MrMcGonagall> I know zip about computer technology. I know how to do what is explained to me, but that's about it. LOL <DumbleDebbie> I'm still in California, but flying home tonight <Granjo> I just clicked on purple. <Aislinn> very appropriate color, Mr M, in honor of the red alchemical stage in DH *** ascellaskat_ has joined #lounge <Shard> lol <Granjo> no good *** ginginkat has quit [Bye] *** ginginkat has joined #lounge <Shard> Oh yes McG your a beliver in the Alchmey now aren't you? lol <DumbleDebbie> hi ginginkat <Granjo> I am stuck in the black stage.LOL <MrMcGonagall> Eh, I'm still not all that into alchemy. <ginginkat> hi dumbleDebbie <Expelliarmas> alchemy still gives me a roaring headache <DumbleDebbie> lol Mr M <MrMcGonagall> I've started reading the Pardoner's Tale this morning. <bibs> my cat is being a little jerk - give me a minute <DumbleDebbie> ooo, good idea Mr M. I should do that too <Aislinn> black's a tough stage to be stuck in, Granjo! <MrMcGonagall> Middle English can give one a headache, too. <Granjo> OOOOhExpie is green!!!! <Aislinn> yes, it is challenging to take in <DumbleDebbie> I think I'l also pick up Connie Neal's book <Expelliarmas> I always use the green <Expelliarmas> so Hurricane *** ginginkat has quit [Bye] <MrMcGonagall> Although let it be known that there is nothing Slytherinish about our Expie. <AuroraBR> hello everyone! <DumbleDebbie> hu aurora <Aislinn> hi AuroraBR <DumbleDebbie> *hi <Spectre> Give me a Slytherin colour biggrin <Granjo> Hi <JaneMarple9> emerald green biggrin <Shard> So F(red) is really Red Stage huh? <bibs> im back and my cats broke a glass <Aislinn> that's one interpretation <DumbleDebbie> awww Fred ;( <JaneMarple9> Alchemy gets me puzzled! <Shard> Poor Fred <MrMcGonagall> OK, everybody ready to chat? <Aislinn> but then Rufus Scrimgeour is the red one, so he can be representative too *** readthroughthenight has joined #lounge <bibs> yep <DumbleDebbie> hi read *** Iheartprofessorsnape_ has joined #lounge <Shard> Its nice that so many things can still be debated <DumbleDebbie> hi Iheart <JaneMarple9> readsy and waiting! <JaneMarple9> can't wait! <Spectre> yeah smile <Granjo> U need our Alchemy thread. I am actually learning something. <MrMcGonagall> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You're not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you'll be able to type again soon. *** ginginkat has joined #lounge <MrMcGonagall> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod. <MrMcGonagall> You won't be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it" in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules <MrMcGonagall> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! <MrMcGonagall> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! <Expelliarmas> Well, we’ve got a new book, Deathly Hallows, to dissect in the Reading Groups. The Reading Groups formally launch chapter discussions tomorrow, 12 August 07. Today, however, we’ll whet our discussion appetite with a few beginning discussion points. <Expelliarmas> If you have not yet sorted into a Reading Group, follow this link: http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?act=Sorting&CODE=01 . We are still sorting members into Reading Groups. Hope to see you in one of the Reading Groups: Rooftop Garden, Dragon’s Den, and Luminous Loft. <Expelliarmas> Thanks to the Rooftop Garden, Dragon’s Den, and Luminous Loft for the introduction and following discussion questions. Turning now to our discussion for today. Who knows, a certain greaseball might make an appearance today ... <Expelliarmas> What part of the book did you love and why? (Rooftop Garden) <Shard> I loved the Silver Doe Chapter <MrMcGonagall> The Forest Again was undoubtedly my favorite chapter in the entire series. <Spectre> I loved the final battle because I love action smile <Braden> Harry lives! smile <bemused> The silver doe... <bibs> i like malfoy mannor <JaneMarple9> My all time favourite was the Prince's Tale <Kwikspell> The Prince's Tale was great because we got so much information <Aislinn> it's hard to pick just one, as there were so many incredible parts to this book. <Shard> I agree Aislinn <bemused> agreed Aislinn <DumbleDebbie> there were lots of parts <JaneMarple9> and I never ever thought I would like snape! *** ascellaskat has quit [Bye] <ascellaskat_> i loved the prince's tale also <NYBookworm> deathly hallows chapter <DumbleDebbie> and I liked the whole book a lot better on my second read <bibs> oh by the way its ginnys birthday today <Granjo> Lots of favs. <Aislinn> like is a strong word wink <Expelliarmas> I actually enjoyed Kreacher's Tale <MrMcGonagall> I still don't like Snape. LOL *** HeliumHead has quit [Bye] <Expelliarmas> It was great to have that mystery solved <MrMcGonagall> I maybe hate him a little less. <bemused> I do, Mr M <Granjo> Sliver doe definitely a big one. <Shard> For me the Silver Doe was the begining of the Light after the Eternal Night phase of the story, things were at their darkest and he Silver Doe chapter brought the light back, brought the Heart back <Spectre> Also I love the chapters that I translated for the unauthorized Russian version biggrin Dark Lord Ascending, The Wedding, The Bribe, The Missing Mirror, The Prince's Tale smile <Expelliarmas> and it revealed to me that Sirius knew nothing of his brother <Kwikspell> That's how I feel, Mr. M <DumbleDebbie> Snape is a nasty child-abuser, "spiteful and a bully" <bemused> the bravest man Harry ever knew... <Aislinn> yes, expie - I loved the way Jo handled Kreacher's story <JaneMarple9> can't say he's my favourite....that's reserved for a certain Professor...but I changed my opinion of snape *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] <Aislinn> It made him such a sympathetic character. <Shard> MrMcG I totaly agree Snape is still a jerk <Shard> Brave but still a Jerk *** Iheartprofessorsnape_ has quit [Bye] <Spectre> The epigraph is very meaningful <MrMcGonagall> Yes, Shard. <bemused> Agreed Aislinn, I thought the Regulus/Kreacher story was excellent *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge <Granjo> Still thinking about Snape. <bibs> when hermiones being tortured and rons shouting hert name <Shard> I pretty much feel that Snape nad Sirius are two sides to the same coin <JaneMarple9> Snape was bitter and twisted...but not much as a jerk as I thought! <NYBookworm> I'd hoped for <DumbleDebbie> yeah I would have never thought I'd laugh and cheer on Kreacher <MrMcGonagall> I loved Dobby's burial. Sad, but so well-written. * Expelliarmas Patience peeps. Snape will make an appearance in a bit. <ascellaskat_> i think snape is a jerk but DH explained a lot of why he is the way he is <JaneMarple9> awwwwwwwwwww Kreacher <bemused> oh yes, Mr M *** omikse has quit [Bye] <Granjo> I still question his motives. <JaneMarple9> I loved the way Kreacher had a personality change <Aislinn> oh, he was quite the jerk, but his actions were intended to keep Harry alive, unquestioningly. <Granjo> Kreacher is great! *** readthroughthenight has quit [Bye] <bemused> Bravest man Harry ever knew..... <DumbleDebbie> I cried so much during Dobby's funeral <Shard> It just goes to show, Sirius should have been nicer to Kreacher <bibs> who thought he was good *raises hand* <Aislinn> bravery is one characteristic, yes. There are many others. <Shard> Exaclty <Expelliarmas> What do you think the book could have done without? (Rooftop Garden) <bemused> faithfulness in love.... <Granjo> Harry saw something in Snape that I don't. <MrMcGonagall> I think everything was more or less necessary in the story. <DumbleDebbie> epilogue LOL <Spectre> Too many deaths... <Aislinn> I cheated and looked at this question ahead of time, and I can't think of anything I wish wasn't in the story. <Shard> You can still be Brave and a rank nasty bully, I don't boil him down in simplicity I just don't forget all his other qualities as well <bemused> I don't think there's anything I would take out of the book <MrMcGonagall> LOL, Debbie! It needed an epilogue... just a better one. <Aislinn> yes, the deaths were devastating, but I think they were apt for the story. <bemused> there are a few things I might expand <Shard> I wouldn't take out either <DumbleDebbie> yeah, exactly Mr M ;) <Shard> Maybe add a scene or two but take nothing out <Spectre> I didn't like how the people like Mad-Eye and Lupin and Tonks died "off screen" <bemused> but as it stands I think it's fine <Kwikspell> I wouldn't have minded a little less camping, but it really conveyed the frustration well <Granjo> I loved the entire book. <JaneMarple9> I was really proud of myself - I never peeped once this time! <Braden> i agree kwik <bibs> nothing *** LillianJames has joined #lounge <DumbleDebbie> yeah, I think it needed the camping to feel how the trio felt <NYBookworm> Kwikspell I agree on the camping it seemed long <Shard> I'm so glad I wasn't spoiled yay <Aislinn> yes it did Kwikspell - I think it was a great way for us to share in the trio's frustration <MrMcGonagall> Yes, on my first read I thought the tent scenes dragged, but after my re-read I think it was wholly necessary for character development. <Shard> Yep the camping trip was part of the Raod through Hell <Aislinn> exactly, me M *** ascellaskat_ left #lounge [Leaving] <Aislinn> Mr. M <JaneMarple9> I loved the entire book too. I just wish the Epilogue had been a "little" better <Kwikspell> Mr M, exactly. I was irritated the first time through, but it really needs to be in there *** readthroughthenight has joined #lounge <Expelliarmas> What should have been in the book, but was not? (Hah, Aislinn! Just wrote that one) <Aislinn> LOL <Shard> I would have liked more H/G at the end but then I'm a hoplless romantic and I get that the story has been about the Trio and it had to end where it did <Expelliarmas> Hermione's defeat of her horcrux should have been in there, not off camera <Braden> more of ginny <Aislinn> I still want to know what happened in the missing 24 hours following LV's downfall <Kwikspell> Agree, Expie, would like to have seen Hermione destroy the cup <bibs> i wanted more lupin! <JaneMarple9> more about what happened after the battle of Hogwarts <DumbleDebbie> yeah, more of Neville and Ginny, but it wouldn't have fit with Harry's POV <Braden> ooo good answer aislinn <Aislinn> yes, Braden, more of ginny <MrMcGonagall> I would have liked a bit more explanation of the wandlore. <JaneMarple9> just a short chapter about the survivors <DumbleDebbie> I was expecting more from Petunia, but not getting it fits her character <Aislinn> that is actually the one I wanted most, Jane <ginginkat> I wanted to see more exchange between Petunia, Dudley and Harry. <Kwikspell> Mr. M what about wandlore would you like to know/ <DumbleDebbie> that did get confusing at the end Mr M <Spectre> A more extended epilogue <Aislinn> we needed the catharsis of dealing with the losses of Fred, Tonks, and Lupin <JaneMarple9> awww I wanted to know Dudleys dementor! <bibs> yeah the dersleys <Aislinn> and all the others that died. <bemused> *gets ready to duck* I would have liked more of Severus <bibs> dursleys <MrMcGonagall> Everything about how wand ownership worked seemed vague to me. <NYBookworm> I would've wanted the epilogue to include a list like at the end of a <NYBookworm> based on true story film of what happened to each cahracter <JaneMarple9> and i wanted more from petunia <DumbleDebbie> he was conspicously in the background bemused <Spectre> Some scenes in Hogwarts would do... <bemused> true, Debbie <Expelliarmas> Yes, I was dissatisfied with the Dursleys total exit. I wanted to know if Harry ever had contact with them again <Spectre> not from Harry's POV, of course... from Snape's, for instance smile <Kwikspell> Would have liked to have seen Dudders on the platform sending his kid to Hogwarts. heh heh <MrMcGonagall> I also really wanted to see Harry come to terms with the revelation about Snape. We never see it. <JaneMarple9> there was just enough of Snape... he was always in the background <DumbleDebbie> esp. after he was so involved in the previous books <DumbleDebbie> I think Harry and Dudders might stay in touch, Christmas cards at least ;) <bemused> Yes, Mr M - I agree with that <Expelliarmas> The search for the sword took Harry and Hermione to Godric's Hollow, but it was a red herring. Do you think it was ever there? (Rooftop Garden) <MrMcGonagall> Noe. <Aislinn> no <MrMcGonagall> Nope <bemused> no <bibs> i wanted dean and luna to skip off into the sunset <JaneMarple9> yeah i am hoping harry and dudders staued in touch <JaneMarple9> nope <DumbleDebbie> no, there were other keys there, but not the sword <Aislinn> I think it was always in the Headmaster's office. <Spectre> never smile <Shard> Such a shame <Braden> maybe when godric lived there himself <JaneMarple9> but harry had to go there to see his parents grave <Expelliarmas> I think when Godric Gryffindor lived, it was there. But not otherwise. <Spectre> and Ignotus' grave, also <DumbleDebbie> where was it when Dippet was headmaster? it wasn't there then was it? <Aislinn> yes he did jane <Granjo> Well backe when the Gryffindor family lived there, it probably was. <Expelliarmas> Yes, that grave was important <JaneMarple9> and hermione and harry got more than they expected - warning! Don't talk to strange ladies! laugh <Spectre> A clever name, Ignotus - literally "Invisible" smile <Expelliarmas> But I think Harry needed to know where the wizarding families lived <Aislinn> I don't think it was, debbie - I think Dd told Harry it was his, and so he probably had it somewhere when he was a professor. <NYBookworm> I think it helped also for him to see the people who wished hi well at that point <Braden> oh nice catch spectre, i didn't know that <DumbleDebbie> especially old ladies that can see through invisibilty cloaks <JaneMarple9> yeah that was touching, the writing on harry's home <Aislinn> yes, NYB, I just LOVED that scene, when he saw the messages left for and about him. <Expelliarmas> I loved the magical graffiti encouraging Harry to continue <Spectre> Harry didn't have his invisibility cloak on in Godric's Hollow smile <DumbleDebbie> that was just about the most brilliantly creepy scene <JaneMarple9> oh yes he did smile <bibs> i lov it <bibs> love <DumbleDebbie> Nagini/Bathilda, the smell of rot and the flashing light  <Spectre> It wouldn't hide their footprints *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] <bemused> Yes - I loved the Godric's Hollow scene, it had tremendous atmosphere - being Christmas, and all <Expelliarmas> Did Dumbledore have a right to leave the sword to Harry? (Rooftop Garden) <JaneMarple9> yes <bibs> yes <Aislinn> I got the impression that it was his, so yes. <JaneMarple9> he had every right *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge <Expelliarmas> I think that sword came to Hogwarts through Dumbledore <Spectre> No, but it was written as a hint, I think <Kwikspell> Yes, but it could be called by other Gryffs, as we've seen <DumbleDebbie> depends on it you've got the POV of a wizard or a goblin LOL <MrMcGonagall> No, I don't think he did. Properly speaking, I think it belongs to all who belong to the House of Gryffindor. <JaneMarple9> he wanted harry to have it so why wouldn't sill Scrimgeour give it to him! sad <Aislinn> It can be called by any true Gryffindor, yes. <bemused> i think he was more,,, highlighting the fact that Harry would need it <Spectre> Because it's "an important historical artifact" smile <MrMcGonagall> I agree, bemused. <Aislinn> But I think it was in Dumbledore's possession since before he became Headmaster. <NYBookworm> I think that probably any griffyndor (if they knew what he needed it for) would've wanted him to have it anyway <Expelliarmas> It can be called by any true Gryff, true; but the question for Dumbledore was whether he was the actual owner <Expelliarmas> just being the headmaster would not be enough <Aislinn> yes, NYB, I bet they would <JaneMarple9> probably foreshadowing for later in the book <bemused> the sword appears to have its own mind about the people it goes to <Braden> so are people suggesting that dumbledore owned the sword and then placed it in the sorting hat with the appropriate magic? <Aislinn> I think you're right, bemused - he left it to Harry more as a clue than a belief it would actually pass to Harry at that time. <vandy> but dumbledore was a gryff too.... [12:31] <JaneMarple9> i still think dumbledore was somehow connected with godric - a very distant relation [12:31] <DumbleDebbie> no the sword and the hat were interconnected by Godric Gryffindor I think [12:31] <Expelliarmas> What do you think about the goblins’ claim to ownership of the sword? (Rooftop Garden) [12:31] <DumbleDebbie> they were both his [12:31] <NYBookworm> also I think maybe he knew that They woudln't give Harry the sword but [12:31] <NYBookworm> he put it in the will so he'd know he'd need it and would be able to [12:31] <NYBookworm> get it [12:31] <JaneMarple9> never trust a goblin! [12:31] <Spectre> I think that Dumbledore was a distant ascendant of Antioch Peverell [12:31] <Aislinn> I don't agree with the goblins' view [12:31] <Expelliarmas> I thought the goblins were nuts [12:31] <Spectre> The goblins are too bitter [12:31] <bemused> If I were a goblin I'd probably agree with it - but I'm not, so I don't [12:31] <Aislinn> and neither did the sword! [12:31] <MrMcGonagall> I disagree with the goblin view as well. [12:32] <bibs> i dont think it was thief [12:32] *** promom has quit [Bye] [12:32] <vandy> wizards shud stop buying from the goblins if they continue with the attitude.. [12:32] <JaneMarple9> goblins are tricky creatures [12:32] <Expelliarmas> they were commissioned for a sword and produced it; I think Gryffindorr paid for it and it became his sword [12:32] <Aislinn> right, expie. [12:32] <JaneMarple9> I won't biy any more goblin made artefacts smile [12:32] <Expelliarmas> By their way of thinking, anything they produce is actually theirs forever. No matter that they were paid for it [12:32] <DumbleDebbie> the goblins seem to hold some sort of feeling of artistic copyright to the things they make [12:32] <Spectre> Hm... It's something like a pun on the modern corporate products [12:33] <vandy> but griphook was tooo filthy [12:33] <Spectre> Like, you pay for Microsoft Windows, but it's still a Microsoft property... [12:33] <bibs> ir you make a christmas card and give it to some one its not steeling [12:33] <MrMcGonagall> Goblins covet that which they have created. Not a good thing. [12:33] <vandy> the microsoft example is cool [12:33] <Spectre> And you can't give your Windows to anyone, because it's like "theft"... [12:33] <Expelliarmas> It is only a microsoft property to the extent they don't want endless copies floating about [12:33] <DumbleDebbie> it was a very interesting concept, for Jo to have the goblins with such a different perspective on ownership [12:33] <Expelliarmas> but you do own your particular copy [12:34] <Kwikspell> Heh heh. Goblins license their creations? Very amusing. [12:34] <Braden> i wonder how other cultures view ownership [12:34] <Expelliarmas> the goblin license, however, never expires [12:34] <Braden> i think in a western capitalist country, it is easy to accept personal property as a given [12:34] *** readthroughthenight has quit [Bye] [12:34] <DumbleDebbie> good question Braden [12:34] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [12:34] <Kwikspell> Braden, well the centaurs seem to feel like they own the forbidden forest [12:34] <JaneMarple9> goblins have strange ideas on owenership [12:34] <Shard> Well native americans feel that they do not own the land, tha they merely hold it for their children [12:34] <DumbleDebbie> like the centaurs seeing the Forest as "theirs" [12:34] <DumbleDebbie> LOL Kwik [12:34] <vandy> but they dont do any harm do they? [12:35] <Kwikspell> Great minds and all DD [12:35] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [12:35] <JaneMarple9> nice little echo there smile [12:35] <Braden> only if you are umbridge [12:35] <DumbleDebbie> lag brb [12:35] <MrMcGonagall> But the goblins understand their creations in just as personal a sense. In their mind, they never stop "owning" the article. [12:35] *** DumbleDebbie left #lounge [] [12:35] <bibs> i dont know, im tired [12:35] *** felicis2 has joined #lounge [12:35] *** DumbleDebbie has joined #lounge [12:35] <Expelliarmas> What part did the sword play in Harry’s and Ron’s relationship? (Rooftop Garden) [12:35] <NYBookworm> ok, Gotta go, bye all [12:35] *** NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [12:35] <Shard> Redemption [12:35] <bibs> bye [12:35] <JaneMarple9> it helped ron to destroy the locket [12:35] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [12:35] *** bibs has quit [Bye] [12:35] <Shard> It showed Ron's loyalty [12:35] <Granjo> Yes. [12:35] <Granjo> Scrimgeour was just throwing his weight around. [12:35] <Granjo> Plus he was suspiscious about all the bequests. [12:35] <Granjo> After all the dissertations on that subject, I don't care! [12:35] <Granjo> It literally got them back together again. [12:36] <Aislinn> it was a tool that helped bring them back together [12:36] <DumbleDebbie> it helped mend it as Ron saved Harry at the point Harry was trying to retrieve it [12:36] <Expelliarmas> I think it was important that the sword recognized Ron as a true gryffindor [12:36] <MrMcGonagall> Interesting that Ron is revealed as the Arthurian character. The one who succeeds in gaining the sword and uses it to destroy evil. [12:36] <Shard> Just as much as it did with Neville [12:36] <Kwikspell> It brought them together and helped Harry understand Ron's biggest fears [12:36] <vandy> Ron's innermost insecurities were exposed and it was resolved... thanks to the sword [12:36] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [12:36] *** bibs has joined #lounge [12:36] <Braden> it proed to the doubters that ron is a true gryffindor [12:36] <DumbleDebbie> yes, I lvoed that Mr M [12:36] <Aislinn> It showed Ron that he deserved to be a Gryffindor in a similar way it did for Harry back in CoS [12:36] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [12:36] <bibs> sorry compputer went mad [12:36] <JaneMarple9> at the time there was no other way to destroy the locket, and the locket had to be destroyed [12:36] <DumbleDebbie> and I thought it was great how each horcrux was destroyed by a different character [12:36] <Shard> Ron may be named for Arthur's spear [12:36] <ginginkat> It made the bond stronger between Harry and Ron. [12:36] <MrMcGonagall> Ron confronting the piece of Voldysoul in the locket was an amazing moment in the story. Very powerful. [12:36] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [12:36] <DumbleDebbie> neat SHard [12:36] <Shard> I like that Harry didn't destroy any Horcruxes in this book [12:37] <JaneMarple9> yes Shard, it is connected to Arthurian legend again [12:37] <bibs> yeah [12:37] <MrMcGonagall> I liked how Harry implicitly knew that this one was Ron's, so to speak. [12:37] <Aislinn> it was amazing - it really showed his insecurities so clearly, and his actions to overcome them. [12:37] <DumbleDebbie> yes, very Mr M, and tense. I'm thinking 'stab the thing already!' [12:37] <Shard> I agree MrMCg it was very emotional scene for me, very tense [12:37] <JaneMarple9> He destroyed the biggest Horcrux - Voldie himself! [12:37] <Expelliarmas> It was important that the sword at that time, after Ron left and then tried to return to the other two, recognized him as a true gryffindor [12:37] <Spectre> Hm... and how does the Sword actually *recognize* Gryffindors? For instance, when Snape had the sword - he couldn't, say, stab anyone with it? [12:37] <bibs> he loves hermione [12:37] <Expelliarmas> Ron's essential character was confirmed [12:37] <Shard> No Violde did that himself [12:37] *** atschpe has joined #lounge [12:37] <bibs> and harry nknows [12:37] <Aislinn> hi atschpe [12:37] <Shard> All Harry did was disarm him [12:37] <bibs> knows [12:38] <DumbleDebbie> I think it's olny magically called to Gryffs not that others can't hold it [12:38] <MrMcGonagall> I was thinking this morning about the reason why there had to be a test of courage in order to attain the sword. [12:38] <JaneMarple9> ron realised he could not manage without his two best friends [12:38] <felicis2> One of the most moving scenes in the whole series. But I think Neville really needs to be included in the sword concept, because the three of them were the only ones who wielded the sword: a sort of coming of age symbol for all three. [12:38] <atschpe> HI everyone! [12:38] <Aislinn> do tell, Mr M [12:38] <Braden> but harry needed it, so why wasn't it called to him? [12:38] <Shard> Ron was tested [12:38] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [12:38] <DumbleDebbie> oh as soon as the Sorting hat was on Neville's head I was saying "take the sword, kill the snake" [12:38] <Shard> he jumped into the "lake" with all clothes on meaning he didn't waste time and he saved Harry [12:38] <bibs> ron just rocks [12:38] <atschpe> Perhaps because he didn't ask, Braden? [12:38] <JaneMarple9> neville had to be included with the sword - he was the other "chosen one" Voldie may had marked as his equal [12:39] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [12:39] <Shard> Maqybe thats why Harry was being strangeled [12:39] <Braden> true atschpe, good to see you again [12:39] <Shard> It wasn't Harry's turn with the sword [12:39] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [12:39] <felicis2> It has to be taken in conditions of "need and valor"--technically, though Harry needed it longterm, there was little valor in just jumping into cold water to get the sword. [12:39] <Spectre> did any Gryffindor girls/women ever use the Sword? smile [12:39] <Shard> Becauase the Locket tried to stop him by killing him [12:39] <Expelliarmas> Harry was being strangled by the locket [12:39] <atschpe> gald to be here smile [12:39] <bibs> it sences bravery [12:39] <MrMcGonagall> I think to prevent someone else from taking it and using it, Aislinn. DD wanted to make sure only a true Gryffindor, specifically Harry or Ron or Hermione, would be able to get it and use it on the horcruxes. [12:39] <Expelliarmas> Lamentably, Hermione did not use the sword on the Cup [12:39] <DumbleDebbie> I think Harry would ahve gotten the sword if he had taken off the locket 1st [12:39] <vandy> i think its only during life threatening situations it helps [12:39] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [12:40] <Shard> She didn't need to, she had the Basilik fangs [12:40] <DumbleDebbie> jumping into frozen water takes courage (or stupidity) [12:40] <DumbleDebbie> ;) [12:40] <MrMcGonagall> If Snape had left it lying about, anyone could have picked it up. Hehe. Some Muggle stumbles upon the Sword of Gryffindor. [12:40] <Aislinn> You think Dumbledore cast a spell on the sword to ensure that? [12:40] <bibs> ron was brave, nevill was brave [12:40] <Expelliarmas> She had to use the fangs, because the sword was not available to her at that time [12:40] <Spectre> DumbleDebbie, you echo Phineas Nigellus here biggrin [12:40] <JaneMarple9> stupidity yeah smile Especailly with a locket around your neck! [12:40] <MrMcGonagall> I think Godric enchanted the sword so as to be claimed by any member of his House. [12:40] <Aislinn> ah, Godric, ok [12:40] <DumbleDebbie> b/c I dont' think Snape knew Ron was there. he expected it being in the pond to be sufficient for Harry to claim it [12:41] <Shard> How was Harry to know it would strat strangeling him though? [12:41] <Expelliarmas> I think so too, MrM; more of that ancient magic which LV would never understand [12:41] <Aislinn> that's true, Debbie [12:41] *** LillianJames has quit [Bye] -------------------- |
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Aug 11 2007, 02:27 PM
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Playing dominoes with the Fat Friar Posts: 2,189 Joined: 1:22pm June 3, 2006 Location: Visiting Luna to have wrackspurts removed |
[12:41] <Expelliarmas> Think back to the Arthurian legends, the Lady of the Lake gave Arthur Excalibur from its watery hiding place and he used it during his reign. Gryffindor’s Sword was hidden in the Lake. Can you draw any other similarities? How does Jo use this Arthurian legend here? (Rooftop Garden)
[12:41] <JaneMarple9> oh i think snape knew ron would help harry [12:41] <DumbleDebbie> lol Spectre, I've jumped into nearly frozen water myself (duh) [12:41] <bibs> snape didnt know harry had a horcrux round his neck [12:41] <Shard> I guess this is proof that Snape is a woman *snicker* [12:41] <MrMcGonagall> Doe, a deer, a female deer. Parallels the role of the Lady of the Lake. [12:41] <Braden> snape's patronius (lilly) is the lady in the lake? [12:41] <Aislinn> there are relics mentioned in the Arthurian legends that are referred to as Hallows [12:41] <DumbleDebbie> LOL Mr M [12:41] <Shard> But then the Patrounus is a rep of Lily [12:41] <Aislinn> one of them is a cloak [12:42] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, that whole chapter was very Arthurian in feel and in visuals [12:42] <Spectre> I wonder why Harry never thought that Lily sent him this Patronus... [12:42] <MrMcGonagall> I agree, Debbie. [12:42] <JaneMarple9> when I saw that doe i knew it was connected with lily [12:42] <DumbleDebbie> when I saw the doe I thought it was from Ginny [12:42] *** FreedomStar has joined #lounge [12:42] <Expelliarmas> There is something about water which to me implies cleanliness, or purity [12:42] <DumbleDebbie> hi Freedom [12:42] <JaneMarple9> but never in a million years realised who had cast the patronus [12:42] <Aislinn> yes, expie, it does seem to represent a purification ritual [12:42] <DumbleDebbie> wel that whole scene is also, symbolically, Harry's baptism [12:42] <Braden> both arthur and harry quested for a cup? [12:42] <Shard> Ginny had a tracer, if she had casted it she would have blown all their covers [12:43] <Aislinn> which didn't work for Harry, because of the abhorrent evil hanging around his neck. [12:43] <Aislinn> so he needed Ron's rescue as a result. [12:43] <DumbleDebbie> yet more resurrection symbolism [12:43] <felicis2> True, Snape didn't know about the Horcrux on Harry, + I think when he saw Ron running to save Harry was when he first knew he was there--consequently the bit of movement Ron saw behind the tree. Startled him. I think it may go with so many other examples of things going not quie to plan, but working out according to some greater magic. [12:43] <bibs> i have to go bye [12:43] <MrMcGonagall> Bye, bibs! [12:43] <DumbleDebbie> bye bibs [12:43] <Aislinn> bye bibs [12:43] <Expelliarmas> bye bibs [12:43] <bibs> bye [12:43] <Aislinn> good point, felicis [12:43] *** bibs has quit [Bye] [12:43] <atschpe> Bye bibs! [12:43] <Aislinn> I think there was some greater magic at work as well. [12:44] <Granjo> The horcrux strangled Harry because it recognized the sword. [12:44] <Kwikspell> Also Christian symbolism-with baptism [12:44] <Expelliarmas> I think all Snape knew was that he was to provide Harry with the sword [12:44] <Aislinn> the universe attempting to restore a balance. [12:44] <DumbleDebbie> the horcrux acted very like the "one ring" in many regards [12:44] <Shard> I agree Felicis, not everything always gos according to plan [12:44] <MrMcGonagall> I think so too, Expie. [12:44] <Granjo> Agree Expie. [12:44] <felicis2> Also a death and rebirth event. [12:44] <Spectre> ...a flaw in the plan [12:44] <Shard> I think it's unfair to call that Locket "The one Ring" [12:44] <Spectre> It's a recurring thing in the whole book [12:44] <MrMcGonagall> I think the horcrux also sensed Harry's intent. [12:44] <Shard> They did not act exaclty the same imo [12:44] <Expelliarmas> speaking of master plans ... How did you feel about Dumbledore, once you'd learned about his past? Did it change your perception of him? (Rooftop Garden) [12:45] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [12:45] <MrMcGonagall> I had trouble coming to terms with that, but I think I'm OK with it now. [12:45] <Shard> I felt like with DD we finally saw the other half of the story I didn't know it would be that dark [12:45] <Kwikspell> I'd always though Dumbledore had an edge to him that we hadn't seen, but was a little shocked how cruel he came across [12:45] <Braden> Well a little, but probbly no more than OotP changed it too [12:45] <Expelliarmas> My perception of DD changed 270 degrees and I'm still not sure about him [12:45] <Shard> but I forgive him because he saw the error of his youth [12:45] <Granjo> I thought it explained the greatness of the wise old man. [12:45] <JaneMarple9> i felt very sorry for dumbledore [12:45] <vandy> yeah.... i am snape's girl through and through and dumbledore was a disappointment for me... i hate him [12:45] <DumbleDebbie> that story line really bothered me the 1st time through, but not in subsequent reads [12:45] <MrMcGonagall> I still loathe Rita Skeeter. She made it seem worse than it was. Never trust Skeeter to fill in the blanks! [12:45] <atschpe> I kept going back and forth until we received the fuller picutre [12:46] <DumbleDebbie> I got sucked in to Harry's loss of faith and Rita's tripe (that's what I get for reading it sleep deprived) [12:46] <Shard> I think DD felt he needed to change the world "For the Greater Good" [12:46] <Aislinn> It took a bit of adjusting, but I'm glad that we have a fuller view of him as a 3 dimensional character. [12:46] <Spectre> And DD succeeded, in a way [12:46] <Expelliarmas> It seems that we, like Harry, finally had DD taken off a pedestal and he comes across as more human somehow. It was a rough removal from the pedestal. [12:46] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [12:46] <DumbleDebbie> and he did Shard [12:46] <JaneMarple9> i felt as it explained why dumbledore, the way he was. The reason why he never became Minister of Magic [12:46] <Shard> I think it's good blance to the story to show how human Dumbledore can be, how imperfect he really was [12:46] <Expelliarmas> At least no one can say he was a "mary sue" type character [12:46] <DumbleDebbie> but after reading it again I just love DD all the more [12:47] *** Iheartprofessorsnape_ has joined #lounge [12:47] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [12:47] <Aislinn> wow, hate is a strong emotion vandy. [12:47] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, that even DD could be tempted. [12:47] <Shard> Exaclty Expe, I always remarked that ppl put DD on a pedastal and that they shouldn't do that [12:47] <Shard> Now we can see why [12:47] <JaneMarple9> Dumbledore's backstory was fascinating - he didn't go down in my estimation [12:47] *** georgesear has joined #lounge [12:47] <ginginkat> Like Harry, never really thought about DD youth, but he did turn himself around for the good. [12:47] <DumbleDebbie> he was human and I do think he wanted to rule to make things better [12:47] <DumbleDebbie> to spare others from the pain and grief his family had endured [12:47] <felicis2> Well, I just thought the information about his early life was interesting--& not a betrayal of his character, because as Hermione says, he'd spent the rest of his life living the opposite. When I realized (or thought) he'd always planned to let Harry die, I was pretty disgusted, felt betrayed myself. yet aware that he didn't have much choice if they were to defeat Voldemort. Harry even saw the "betrayal" as "almost nothing." [12:47] <Aislinn> I am glad that we were able to learn more about his human frailties, as we all have them. [12:47] *** luna has joined #lounge [12:48] <DumbleDebbie> and yes, he was young and arrogant, not surprising for one so talented [12:48] <JaneMarple9> i am sure that dumbledore had some part of muggle blood in him somewhere [12:48] <MrMcGonagall> I think what we have to understand is that DD, for the most part, learned the lesson of his past failing. He knew what his frailties were, even though he never overcame them perfectly. [12:48] *** readthroughthenight has joined #lounge [12:48] <vandy> didnt he know he's putting snape in great danger whether or not he becomes an owner of elder wand???? [12:48] <Aislinn> that's true, Mr M, he did not overcome them, but how many of us truly do? [12:48] <Granjo> What difference does the blood status make? [12:48] <vandy> is this not exploitation??? [12:48] <MrMcGonagall> Snape chose that danger, Vandy. [12:48] <Aislinn> everyone was in great danger, vandy [12:48] <Braden> but it was snape's decision [12:48] <Aislinn> and yes, Snape chose. [12:48] <MrMcGonagall> DD asked it of him, but Snape agreed. [12:49] <DumbleDebbie> right Mr M [12:49] <atschpe> I think he did vandy … and Snape would have known that to some extent [12:49] <DumbleDebbie> Snape wanted revenge on VOldy [12:49] <JaneMarple9> he did [12:49] <DumbleDebbie> he worked with DD in the full knowledge of what a precarious position he was in [12:49] <Granjo> Snape had to kill DD for Voldy. Might as well let it serve DD too. [12:49] <Expelliarmas> Did Dumbledore see Harry as a chess pawn, to be discarded in order to win the match? (Rooftop Garden) [12:49] <JaneMarple9> he wanted revenge for lily's (and jame's in a lesser extent) death [12:49] <Shard> At least Snape's loyalty to DD was always 100% [12:50] <Aislinn> no, not for James's even a tiny little bit, Jane [12:50] <DumbleDebbie> and I think DD knew Harry was doomed to die no matter what, unti lthe point where VOldy tood his blod [12:50] <Granjo> No [12:50] <JaneMarple9> dumbledore know harry pretty well [12:50] <Shard> DD did so I think but from the OOTP end chat he realised how much he cared for Haqrry [12:50] <DumbleDebbie> that's why DD hadn't told Harry of the Prophecy [12:50] <MrMcGonagall> No, I don't think he really did. He was all about Harry coming to the stage of his journey where he would do what needed to be done. Harry wwasn't just a pawn. [12:50] <Braden> no i think dumbldedore really cared for harry, but was afraid harry would succomb to the same kind of temptation that he himself did [12:50] <Aislinn> No, Dumbledore saw Harry as the greatest hope for the world, as he told Lupin and Kingley [12:50] <DumbleDebbie> he was honest when he said he loved Harry too mch [12:50] <JaneMarple9> he knew that eventually harry would figure out things himself [12:50] <Expelliarmas> I think he saw Harry's role in this situation and knew what it would take for LV to be defeated [12:50] <Shard> I mean just look at PS and the chess match and Ron's litle speech about Sacrfice [12:51] <Shard> It's clear from the begining that the meaning of Sacrifce is important, DD knew this [12:51] <georgesear> Yes, to an extent I think DD did see Harry as an expendable pawn. If it hadn't been for the blood LV took from Harry in GoF, Harry would be dead. [12:51] <DumbleDebbie> I think until GoF and the blood Harry's only options were die easy or die hard [12:51] <FreedomStar> I don't think he did see Harry as a pawn [12:51] <Granjo> He saw Harry's destiny and tried to help him develope in a way that would help him. [12:51] <DumbleDebbie> and that was an awful burden on DD [12:51] <Shard> You can't make an omlete without breaking a few eggs, somtimes lives have to be sacrficed in order to win [12:51] <FreedomStar> as Shard said, it's clear that the meaning of sacrifice is important [12:51] <Shard> DD knew this [12:51] <Aislinn> He knew that Voldemort had targeted Harry - Dumbledore did his best to prepare Harry to make the most of being in that fatal situation. [12:51] <ginginkat> DD knew Harry was in danger, but Harry was their only hope against LV. [12:51] <MrMcGonagall> Harry struggles in DH with the idea that he has only been DD's pawn, but in the end he knows it wasn't true. [12:51] <vandy> i think dumbledore really cared for harry [12:51] <Aislinn> georgesear, LV would have tried to kill Harry no matter what Dd did [12:51] <Shard> DD did care but also knew that certain things had to happen [12:52] <FreedomStar> and DD knew it, and he knew that, as much as he loved Harry, he was the one who would end up fighting voldemort at the end and to ensure harry's survival and the survival of everyone else, he had to make harry think he had to sacrifice himself. [12:52] <MrMcGonagall> I do too, vandy. [12:52] <DumbleDebbie> he loved Harry dearly, which is why he tried to protect him from the Prophecy while he thought it only meant death [12:52] <georgesear> Regardless of how much DD cared for him, he was fully prepared to sacrifice Harry. [12:52] <Aislinn> what other options were there? Should Harry have just been on the run forever? [12:52] <DumbleDebbie> once DD knew there was a loophole he had hope for Harry's survival (hence the gleam) [12:52] <FreedomStar> because Harry will do it, he's that self-sacrificing kind of person [12:52] <Aislinn> It wasn't Dd's sacrifice. [12:52] <MrMcGonagall> DD knows what it takes to make a sacrifice. He knew he had to lead Harry to that same wisdom. [12:52] <Granjo> DD loved Harry dearly. First it was respect and admiration. Then love [12:52] <vandy> but i have a doubt..why did DD want harry to know about the DH?? [12:52] <Expelliarmas> Time to get out the Cho Chang Deluxe Edition Kleenex! Quite a few people died in the finale: Mad-Eye Moody, Fred, Dobby, Remus, Tonks, Crabbe, Snape, Fred, Colin Creevey, etc. Whose death was the most significant and why? (Luminous Loft) [12:52] *** mdbennett has joined #lounge [12:53] <Braden> but even if he was willing to sacrifice him, it doesn't mean he didn't care about him [12:53] <vandy> snape's death [12:53] <MrMcGonagall> Dobby was the hardest one for me. Snape's horrified me at its brutality. [12:53] <DumbleDebbie> Harry's [12:53] <Aislinn> The most significant? Hmmm [12:53] <felicis2> Ron says in the very beginning, almost, "I'm going to be a knight," and "sometimes you have to make sacrifices." Pretty obvious how that theme was going to run. [12:53] <DumbleDebbie> but I cried so much during Dobby's funeral [12:53] <atschpe> Harry's as it's the pivotal point along with his choice to go back [12:53] <Aislinn> Yes, probably Harry's [12:53] <Expelliarmas> Harry's death was most significant as it was the last piece of LV sould remaining [12:53] <georgesear> Harry's willingness to die (even though he didn't) was the most significant death. [12:54] <JaneMarple9> it has to be dobby's death [12:54] <Kwikspell> Significant for me? Fred Significant for the story? Harry [12:54] <Shard> Yeah Harrys was teh hardes to take and most significant [12:54] <DumbleDebbie> Harry's sacrifice is the whole point of the series. as Lily showed, the way to defeat evil is through sacrificial love [12:54] <Braden> tough call, i'm going to throw Remus' death out there, because the marauders were reunited and walked with harry, but i think harry's is the most significant [12:54] <JaneMarple9> i was a total blubbering wreck while harry dug the grave [12:54] <Shard> But I've been thinking that Fred's death also is a "Death of a Brother" sort of way, becausae the Weasleys are his family [12:54] <Shard> Fred would be like his brother.. [12:54] <Expelliarmas> Well, 3 of the maruaders were united; Peter went, um, south I think [12:54] <vandy> and hedwig's too...as Jo said it signified the end of innocence and childhood for harry [12:54] <DumbleDebbie> me too Jane, adn Luna's speech, and "free elf" [12:54] <DumbleDebbie> lol Expie [12:55] <Expelliarmas> Whose death did you find most shocking and why? (Luminous Loft) [12:55] <Braden> true expie [12:55] <Aislinn> Dobby's death was quite significant to Harry - it was pivotal in putting him back on the path he needed to tread. [12:55] <Granjo> Harry for the story but for me Dobby and Hedwig because they were innocents. [12:55] <DumbleDebbie> yes, I was looking at my GoF posts from our reading group and I actually called Wromtail's sef-destruction [12:55] <JaneMarple9> laugh come on Expie - let wormtail go to the same place as the other three and let the threee good ones enjoy chasing him! [12:55] <georgesear> Hedwig and Dobby's [12:55] <Expelliarmas> Fred's death made me mad!!!! I would've preferred Percy had bought the farm [12:55] <DumbleDebbie> Hedwig was out of the blue, and Dobby [12:55] <MrMcGonagall> Dobby's was so sudden and so heroic. [12:55] <Aislinn> Hedwig's was the most shocking to me, coming when and how it did. [12:55] <bemused> Snape's, because of the casual way it was done [12:55] <vandy> Snape's and Dobby's....ummm, i'd say almost every death... [12:55] <JaneMarple9> dobby's death by far [12:55] <mdbennett> hedwig [12:55] <Kwikspell> Fred. Didn't think she'd separate the twins [12:55] <JaneMarple9> snape's second [12:55] <bemused> I was shocked by Hedwig's [12:55] <MrMcGonagall> I think Snape's shocked me the most. [12:55] <ginginkat> Hedwig's because it came so early in the book [12:55] <Aislinn> and Fred's, as I had started letting down my guard by that point in the story. [12:56] <atschpe> IT would have to be Dobbys. Just the fact that we were given the chance to mourn it makes it more emotional [12:56] <DumbleDebbie> when Snape died I just thought, serves him right biggrin [12:56] <Expelliarmas> Snape's death signified what was so out of whack with LV [12:56] <JaneMarple9> i always thought one twin would die while the other lived [12:56] <Braden> i didn't except colin creevy to die [12:56] <Expelliarmas> Snape had to know LV would kill him in the end [12:56] <Aislinn> Yes, Snape's was something that I would totally expect of LV [12:56] <DumbleDebbie> Fred's death wasn't so bad for me b/c I was relieved it wasn't Ron [12:56] <atschpe> I think he did Expie [12:56] <JaneMarple9> no, i did feel sorry for snape - again, very unexpected emotion [12:56] <Granjo> Snape's was so calculated and the process so prolonged. [12:56] <vandy> but the way he was killed was brutal [12:56] <MrMcGonagall> It was, vandy. [12:56] <vandy> not even with a wand [12:56] <Shard> Yep I am releived non of the 6 die [12:56] <Aislinn> so it wasn't shocking to me at all, as it was such a likely risk by moving along that path. [12:56] <JaneMarple9> fred death was sad - but percy was protecting him [12:57] <georgesear> I don't think Snape would necessarily have expected to be killed by LV, but I'm sure he thought it was a possibility. [12:57] <Expelliarmas> I hated finding out about Tonks and Remus dying off camera [12:57] <JaneMarple9> and fred died smiling, i am sure he died the way he wanted to [12:57] <MrMcGonagall> I think you're right about Dobby, atschpe. The mourning was tougher than anything. [12:57] <DumbleDebbie> I have to say, it made me smile that Fred died laughing [12:57] <vandy> I'll never forgive that snake.. [12:57] <Aislinn> yes, Expie, and not being able to grieve them meaningfully with Harry, the way we did Dobby. [12:57] <mdbennett> yes,expie. i thought it deservedmore coverage [12:57] <MrMcGonagall> Nagini has gone south, too. LOL [12:57] <JaneMarple9> tonks and lupin's death didn't really hit me [12:58] <bemused> Snake's dead vandy, you don't have to! [12:58] <Shard> I knew Snape would die [12:58] <JaneMarple9> at least they died together [12:58] <Aislinn> Fred was a huge tragedy, for his family and especially George. [12:58] *** luna has quit [Bye] [12:58] <bemused> I thought Snape would likely die, but the way it was done was terrible [12:58] <vandy> LOL, bemused [12:58] <MrMcGonagall> There's so much death in the Battle of Hogwarts. [12:58] <JaneMarple9> oh poor george [12:58] <Expelliarmas> and for the readers too, Aislinn [12:58] <DumbleDebbie> as soon as Tonks showed up last minute I knew she was a goner [12:58] <atschpe> *note to self: don't go south what every you do. A snake and rat are waiting there* [12:58] <Aislinn> One of them having to go on without the other is just inexpressably sad to me. [12:58] <georgesear> For anyone who has kids out there, I thought it unrealistic that both Lupin and Tonks would choose to leave their newborn. [12:58] <DumbleDebbie> lol atschpe [12:58] <JaneMarple9> he'd lost his best friend, as well as his twin [12:59] *** Iheartprofessorsnape_ has quit [Bye] [12:59] <Expelliarmas> so did I, georgesear [12:59] <bemused> well, I think Tonks' love for Lupin was rather like Snape's for Lily [12:59] <bemused> she valued him above anything [12:59] <vandy> lupin had so much faith in his friends.... [12:59] <Expelliarmas> Sirius passed through a veil. Mrs. Black was quiet when she was the veil or curtain on her portrait was closed on her. Fleur wore a wedding veil. The Invisibility Cloak veiled the appearance of our heroes various times. What do you make of all these “veil”ed references? (Dragon’s Den) [12:59] <Shard> Well they had Teddy's Gran Andromeda to watch [12:59] <Braden> yeah i didn't like how she made lupin seem to want to escape his baby [12:59] <JaneMarple9> i really did think either lupin or tonks should have survived for teddy's sake [12:59] <Aislinn> And was also an Auror, and would have felt the need to fight evil at this critical battle. [13:00] <DumbleDebbie> it's a common symbol of the transition from the physical world to the spiritual world beyond [13:00] <mdbennett> represents things that are very much there but not seen [13:00] <DumbleDebbie> also when Harry was reading Lily's letter he said every "g" was like a little wave from behind a veil [13:00] <vandy> i think it's a symbol of death.....or may be a relic of death [13:00] <Aislinn> Death was such a huge theme for Jo - the veil was a repeated way of exploring it. [13:00] <Braden> a sense of mystery, the unkown [13:00] <Granjo> I don't think Tonks expected to die, and Lupin had thought she was at home with thier son. Can't you just see them arguing in the middle of the battle of Hogwarts? [13:00] <DumbleDebbie> moving 'beyond the veil' is an old euphemism for dying and going on [13:00] <MrMcGonagall> Erm, I don't really think there's too much to the veils, honestly. [13:00] <Aislinn> yes, granjo, absolutely. [13:01] <felicis2> Ignotus' Cloak was the ultimate veil, but in a different sense: it shielded the owner (& anyone he chose to include under it ) from Death. [13:01] <JaneMarple9> the cloak was a great THIPS [13:01] <DumbleDebbie> I didn't think of the cloak in the same sense as other veils [13:01] <DumbleDebbie> LOL Jane, for sure [13:01] <DumbleDebbie> and DD's wand [13:01] <Expelliarmas> That's just it: the veil can be used to hide behind, or to mark a passageway [13:01] <vandy> what will ypu see if you peep into the veil?? [13:01] <JaneMarple9> i never expected the cloak to be so significant [13:01] <Aislinn> yes, felicis, sort of an anti-veil [13:02] <JaneMarple9> you'd see sirius if you peeped around the veil smile [13:02] <georgesear> I agree JaneMarple9 [13:02] <felicis2> Or a mastered Veil--so to speak. [13:02] <Expelliarmas> Do you feel Harry forgave Aunt Petunia for his upbringing? (Dragon’s Den) [13:02] <vandy> lol,jane [13:02] <DumbleDebbie> you'd see dead people [13:02] <DumbleDebbie> lol [13:02] <Shard> Probably [13:02] <Spectre> been on the phone, missed much... %) [13:02] <JaneMarple9> i think he half forgave her [13:02] <Aislinn> I think he made peace with it, and if anyone could forgive, it would be Harry. [13:02] <Shard> If he can forgive Snape then yeah [13:02] <DumbleDebbie> he's a pretty forgiving kid [13:02] <MrMcGonagall> I don't know that Harry did. He just reached a point where he had grown past it. [13:02] <georgesear> Yes. If he could forgive Snape, he can certainly forgive Petunia [13:02] <felicis2> Harry forgives everyone, even Draco, even Snape [13:02] <vandy> yeah...he forgave her after OOTP [13:02] <JaneMarple9> he made more peace with dudley [13:02] <DumbleDebbie> he saddled his kid with the middle name "severus" for cryingout loud [13:03] <Granjo> I don't think Harry ever held grudges,pure at heart. [13:03] <Spectre> Snape's Pensieve scene was another argument to forgive Petunia [13:03] <Shard> Hey at least it wasn't Scorpious [13:03] <Braden> yeah i think the epilogue shows us harry has a tremendous capacity for forgiveness [13:03] <Aislinn> He saw her motivations in the Pensieve, Mr M - I think that would have altered his feelings, the way his feelings were altered towards Snape. [13:03] <JaneMarple9> i wish we'd seen more of petunoa [13:03] <DumbleDebbie> he probably did find a way to pity her when he had time to think it over [13:03] <JaneMarple9> awww i thought it was sweet, Albus Severus [13:03] <Spectre> Scorpius has a funny astrological meaning, by the way... [13:03] <Expelliarmas> Did Petunia ever really care for Harry? Did she ever really see Lily in Harry? (Dragon’s Den) [13:03] <MrMcGonagall> But since we never see any of that, Aislinn, it can only ever be speculation. [13:03] <JaneMarple9> yes she did [13:03] <Shard> I was happy with Petunia, because not everyone is always hable to overcome their predjudices and say Sorry [13:03] <Spectre> She did, and she probably loathed it [13:03] <Granjo> Petunio was not a three dimensional character! [13:03] <Aislinn> true, just projecting based on his nature. [13:04] <georgesear> just an aside, but can you imagine not having magical powers when your sibling does? It would awful [13:04] <JaneMarple9> every time she looked at harry, she saw her sister [13:04] <DumbleDebbie> also, the letter from Lily shows that she and Petunai were still in contact, at least to exchange Christmas presents [13:04] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think she ever really cared for him, lgely because she DID see Lily in him. [13:04] <Aislinn> I think that her feelings towards Harry were conflicted [13:04] <Shard> I think Petunia did, but she was so used to things being a certain way it was impossible for her to change [13:04] <Aislinn> yes, Shard, I tend to agree with that. [13:04] <MrMcGonagall> What she saw in Harry were the things that had estranged her from her sister. [13:04] *** readthroughthenight has quit [Bye] [13:04] <JaneMarple9> she probably wished she had been more of a aunt to harry [13:04] <FreedomStar> I think a lot of Petunia was similar to Snape [13:04] <vandy> she didn't care for harry,all right.....but i think she saw lily in him [13:04] <FreedomStar> Harry was just a reminder of what she couldn't have. [13:04] <ginginkat> Probably, it seemed everyone saw Lily in his eyes. [13:04] <Expelliarmas> I think Petunia was consumed with jealousy and a sense of loss when Lily went off to Hogwarts. [13:04] <felicis2> No, if you go back to how his life with the Dursleys is actually described, it amounted to serious child abuse. [13:05] <Shard> Exaclty MrMcG, but it doesn't change I think the fact taht she can care for him [13:05] <JaneMarple9> she was dying to say something at the end of chapter 3 [13:05] <vandy> yeah...she was jealous of him... [13:05] <atschpe> I think she was tron between wanting to be an aunt and Vernon's hate for this oterh world [13:05] <Shard> "Aunt Marge can't watch him, she HATES the boy" This coming from Petunia in PS [13:05] <DumbleDebbie> I SO wanted her to spit something out in that scene [13:05] <Aislinn> I think that her crying over Dudley's treatment of Harry at the end was in part crying over her inability to be as magnanimous [13:05] <Expelliarmas> I think Vernon learned to hate the magical world from Petunia, not the other way around [13:05] <JaneMarple9> yeah - thats saying someting Shard smile [13:05] <vandy> her inferiority complex turned to superiority complex [13:05] <FreedomStar> I agree expie [13:05] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think she ever cared for him, though. She didn't want him dead, but that doesn't equate to love. [13:05] <Expelliarmas> Petunia called Lily a freak at the train station and the dye was cast [13:06] <atschpe> He might have Expie, but that doesn't mean Petunia changed her view after he learnt that lesson [13:06] <JaneMarple9> yeah - not the way to say goodbye to your sister [13:06] <Shard> No Pure motherly love no, [13:06] <JaneMarple9> even if you're bitter [13:06] <Expelliarmas> Dudley and Harry lived in the same house for the last 17 years, and with the immanent parting of the two cousins, we see one step forward and offer his hand. What does this suggest? (Dragon’s Den) [13:06] <Shard> But I think Petunia is a better mother then Merope or BElla (I equate her as an anti-mother) [13:06] <DumbleDebbie> there's hope for Dudders yet [13:06] <MrMcGonagall> Dudley isn't the complete and utter git we assumed. LOL [13:06] <Aislinn> Dudley was finally maturing and had learned a grain of goodness. [13:06] <georgesear> I think (hope) Dudley will be a better person because of Harry [13:06] *** promom has joined #lounge [13:06] <JaneMarple9> i think it means that dudley and harry will keep in touch [13:06] <bemused> I loved the way Dudley changed [13:07] <Shard> Yep DD had a life changing event [13:07] <vandy> are the dursleys alive???? she mentioned in some chapter that 3 muggles died... [13:07] <DumbleDebbie> even with the horrible examples he's had growing up [13:07] <JaneMarple9> dudders has finally developed a backbone [13:07] <Aislinn> I think we would have learned if they had died. [13:07] <JaneMarple9> and he'd probably keep in touch, in some way, with Harry [13:07] <Expelliarmas> I think the dementors and DD had quite the impact on Dudley [13:07] <Granjo> Wizards had to be freaks because she could not be one.She had plenty of time to entrench herself long before Harrry was in the picture. [13:07] <vandy> how dumbledore?? [13:07] <JaneMarple9> Dudders has finally accepted Harry for what he is [13:08] <Aislinn> Yes, expie, he had to wake up and examine his own pathetic, spoiled life. [13:08] <DumbleDebbie> devnet and I were talking, wouldn't it have been funny for Dudders to marry a witch? LOL [13:08] <bemused> yes, I think DD probably had quite an effect - in the last book vandy [13:08] <Spectre> Dudley accepted Harry as his family, not just some punching bag [13:08] <DumbleDebbie> it would drive his parents battty [13:08] <Expelliarmas> When Dudley says that Harry saved his life ... what do you think he meant? (Dragon’s Den) [13:08] <JaneMarple9> awww Dudders and Millicent Bulstrude [13:08] <bemused> when DD told the Dursleys they'd made a mess of Dudley's life [13:08] <vandy> lol lol jane [13:08] <JaneMarple9> perfect debbie laugh [13:08] <Shard> Could you imagine if the magic genes that skipped Dudley and Petunia showed up in a child of Dudders? lol [13:08] <georgesear> I think he meant it literally [13:08] <Aislinn> He recognized that Harry saved him from the Dementors. [13:08] <DumbleDebbie> he knew the dementors were not there for cuddle time [13:08] <JaneMarple9> it meant he knew harry saved him from the dementors [13:08] <MrMcGonagall> I think Dudley came to terms with the fact that if Harry had not acted in Wisteria Walk, he would have died. Harry could have let Dudley die, but he saved his cousin. [13:09] <Expelliarmas> He might have also referred to having his eyes opened the previous summer [13:09] <Shard> Dudders realised that Harry cared for him on some level even though eh had always been so nasty to Harry, he wanted to thank him for that [13:09] <Granjo> He had expected to die that night. [13:09] *** Kwikspell left #lounge [] [13:09] <bemused> True, Expie [13:09] <JaneMarple9> he was greatful to harry - he knew harry could have left him for dead [13:09] <Spectre> Dudley marrying a witch? Another possibility... smile [13:09] <vandy> dudley's darling [13:09] <Granjo> He knew he would have deserved to die. [13:09] *** georgesear has quit [Bye] [13:10] <bemused> oh dear, though, can you imagine Dudley proposing to anyone... [13:10] <Spectre> and this would probably devastate Uncle Vernon and/or Petunia... smile [13:10] <DumbleDebbie> we figured Luna would drive Petunia the most crazy LOL [13:10] <bemused> she's have to be very patient [13:10] <Expelliarmas> Who was it hardest for Harry to forgive – Vernon, Petunia, or Dudley? Who did you find hardest to forgive from that unhappy trio? (Dragon’s Den) [13:10] <Spectre> Vernon [13:10] <AuroraBR> Petunia [13:10] <Shard> Vernon or maybe Petunia [13:10] <bemused> Petunia [13:10] <vandy> Vernon [13:10] <DumbleDebbie> probably Petunia [13:10] <Shard> lol [13:10] <ginginkat> Petunia [13:10] <Spectre> Vernon and Petunia tied at 3:3 biggrin [13:10] <Granjo> For Harry and me both Petunia [13:10] <Braden> i'll say vernon [13:10] <MrMcGonagall> Vernon is the most awful. And again, I don't think Harry really forgave them here. He just moved past it. [13:10] <JaneMarple9> vernon [13:11] <JaneMarple9> it had to be [13:11] <Expelliarmas> For me it would be Petunia! She was Lily's sister and never got beyond her own jealousy and insecurities. [13:11] <atschpe> Vernon [13:11] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [13:11] <vandy> vernon is heartless [13:11] <AuroraBR> petunia knew everything and never talked to harry! [13:11] <JaneMarple9> vernon never changed in the whole series [13:11] <Expelliarmas> Harry craved a connection to his family, Petunia had it and never gave him that connection. [13:11] <vandy> he was as stupid as he looked..lol [13:11] <MrMcGonagall> Some of the things Petunia did were even crueler than Vernon's rages. [13:11] <Aislinn> I think Petunia, as she is actually Harry's blood relative, and shouldn't have taken her resentment and jealousy towards Lily out on her son. [13:11] <DumbleDebbie> I guess I feel like Vernon actions were fueled off of Petunia's attitude [13:11] <bemused> I think you're right, Mr M - though I think Harry came closer to forgiving Dudley [13:11] <JaneMarple9> petunia is almost as bad...but she told vernon that harry had to stay in OotP [13:11] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, I think he reconciled with Dudley. [13:12] <Expelliarmas> Only because Petunia got DD's howler! [13:12] <MrMcGonagall> Perhaps helping the Dursleys to hide was an act of forgiveness in a way. [13:12] <Braden> yeah i guess if you see vernon as a product of petunia, then i'd have to go with petunia [13:12] <JaneMarple9> harry definately accepted dudley's friendship in chapter 3 [13:12] <DumbleDebbie> yes, Aislinn, I agree the blood relationship makes me feel Petunia was more responsble [13:12] <Aislinn> I think it is possible to forgive without liking someone, Mr M, and I do think that Harry forgave, on some level. [13:12] <vandy> but harry was always tempted to curse dudley.. [13:12] <DumbleDebbie> so I expect more from her [13:12] <Expelliarmas> Time to discuss ol’ greaseball. Was Snape loyal or not? If so, to whom was he loyal? (Rooftop Garden) [13:12] <Granjo> Petunia had an oportunity to be openhearted. She knew about wizards firsthand. Vernon did not. She had more responsibility in the way Harry was treated [13:12] <Aislinn> me too, debbie. [13:13] <JaneMarple9> he was very loyal [13:13] <DumbleDebbie> he was loyal to himself [13:13] <Braden> uh oh, things are going to get heated [13:13] <Aislinn> Snape was loyal to a dead woman's memory. [13:13] <Spectre> Snape was loyal to Lily [13:13] <MrMcGonagall> He was loyal to Lily, and he did what DD asked of him. [13:13] <JaneMarple9> and he was loyal to dumbledore [13:13] <Expelliarmas> Snape was loyal to Lily's memory. He was not loyal to her while she was alive, only in her death. [13:13] <AuroraBR> he was loyal to lily [13:13] <bemused> Snape was loyal to Lily's memory in the first instance, also to DD [13:13] <felicis2> Yes, Petunia's behavior seemed our of sheer spite, as opposed toignorance like Dudley's and Vernon's. [13:13] <Braden> loyal to himself and his obsession (not love) with lilly [13:13] <DumbleDebbie> he was loyal to his own thirst for revenge [13:13] <JaneMarple9> I finally know which side i am on with the snape debate after six books on the fence laugh [13:13] <Shard> I think Snape was loyal to DD [13:13] <Granjo> Snape was loyal to his obcession with Lily. [13:13] <DumbleDebbie> LOL Jane [13:13] <bemused> Right to his last moments he was still trying to do what DD told him to [13:13] <promom> Snape was loyal to Snape. I agree with Braden. [13:13] <MrMcGonagall> I think he was mostly motivated by a desire to atone, which is as much about him as anyone. [13:14] <Shard> Snape certainly shows more loyalty then a certan Rat we all know and despise [13:14] <bemused> I don't agree at all that he was loyal to himself - seems to me he put himself last [13:14] <DumbleDebbie> that's not hard to top Shard LOL [13:14] <JaneMarple9> snape absolutely loved lily. he begged Voldie not to kill lily. when voldie killed lily he realised dumbledore was his master [13:14] <Aislinn> I might agree that by the end of the tale, Snape chose to respect Dumbledore's wishes. I'm still not convinced that this equates to loyalty. [13:15] *** vandy has quit [Bye] [13:15] <bemused> I think what he did does equate to loyalty Aislinn [13:15] <DumbleDebbie> his 'love' for Lily felt dirty and lecherous. like some sort of stalker peeking out of the bushes [13:15] *** vandy has joined #lounge [13:15] <bemused> right to the end, he was still trying to get to Harry [13:15] <Aislinn> He hated himself, bemused, but he did not put himself last, as he could not move outside of himself to grow. [13:15] <Shard> True DD but you gotta respect the dedication Snape went through for his Loyalty, his conviction to do the job set before him [13:15] <vandy> snape was 101% loyal... [13:15] <JaneMarple9> snape was really loyal to dumbledore, he did exactly the things dumbledore asked them [13:15] <Braden> but he wants to look into harry's eyes at the end, to pretend they are lilly's. it was as much about him at the end as passing on his memories [13:16] <bemused> and that was about completing DD's instructions, even though he didn't like or understand them [13:16] <Aislinn> yeah, but why was he trying to? Was it because of Dumbledore, or because he needed Voldemort to die for what he did to Lily? [13:16] <vandy> he was loyal to lily eventhough she didn't like him... [13:16] <Granjo> I think it was obcession more than dedication. [13:16] <promom> Snape loved Lily but it was a selfish love. You might even call it lust. I just can't believed that he would treat Harry the way he did if he truly loved Lily. [13:16] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [13:16] <JaneMarple9> yes vandy [13:16] <bemused> No - I think in that last moment of eye contact he finally saw Lily in Harry [13:16] <DumbleDebbie> right Aislinn, and working for DD was teh best way to bring down Voldy [13:16] <bemused> it was about Snape and Harry, not Snape and Lily [13:16] <Aislinn> totally and completely disagree with that, bemused. [13:16] *** felicis2 has quit [Bye] [13:16] <JaneMarple9> no, i think his dying moments, he saw lily again [13:17] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [13:17] <Aislinn> I think he used Harry's eyes to have one last look at Lily, but not to see Harry for who he was. [13:17] <bemused> thought you might, Aislinn! [13:17] <vandy> lily in harry's eyes [13:17] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [13:17] <Aislinn> as he said to Dumbledore "Always" [13:17] <JaneMarple9> snape would never understand harry, or like him because he was his father's son [13:17] <Granjo> Snape wanted Harry to understand him. He did not necessarily want to help Harry. [13:17] <Expelliarmas> hmmm, I notice we don't see Snape when we see the 3 marauders and Lily. Perhaps he went south as well ... [13:17] <Aislinn> it was always and only Lily, more specifically, HIS feelings for Lily [13:17] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [13:17] <DumbleDebbie> LOL Expie [13:17] <vandy> may be he'll like albus [13:17] <MrMcGonagall> Erm, we didn't see DD either, Expie. [13:18] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [13:18] <JaneMarple9> but he sort of liked harry because of the lily connection [13:18] <Braden> well i think harry chose those people in aprticular to walk with him. we didn't see tonks or moody either [13:18] <bemused> well, Expie, Harry wouldn't really want to see Snape at that moment [13:18] <Aislinn> sure we did, Mr M, at Kings Cross [13:18] <Expelliarmas> DD might be at the Mason-Dixon line ... [13:18] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [13:18] <MrMcGonagall> He wasn't one of those called forth by the resurrection stone, though [13:18] <JaneMarple9> dumbledore was waiting for harry at king's cross, this is why he never came out of the stone [13:18] <DumbleDebbie> at the time Harry was walking into the forest he didn't realize how much DD loved him, he was feeling a bit negaivetowards him I think [13:18] <MrMcGonagall> Bah. King's Cross was all in Harry's head. [13:18] <bemused> But I think you have to admit that in naming his son after Snape, Harry is acknowleding a positive resolution of their relationship [13:19] <Expelliarmas> Was Snape simply pursuing his own agenda--indifferent to the battle between good and evil? (Rooftop Garden) [13:19] <Spectre> Dumbledore wasn't a *part* of him [13:19] <Aislinn> doesn't make it not real, Mr M biggrin [13:19] <JaneMarple9> as for snape - they'd just had a chapter devoted to him [13:19] <DumbleDebbie> yep [13:19] <Shard> We didnt see Tonks either for that mater [13:19] <AuroraBR> yes [13:19] <Braden> yes, he wanted lilly [13:19] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [13:19] <Aislinn> Yes, for the most part, expie. [13:19] <promom> yes [13:19] <bemused> No - snape was pursuing DD's agenda [13:19] <JaneMarple9> harry wasn't as close to tonks [13:19] <Aislinn> He wasn't fighting for the cause of good [13:19] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [13:19] <JaneMarple9> snape was obeying dumbledores orders [13:19] <Braden> the enemy of my enemy is my friend [13:19] <Spectre> It wasn't good, it was "the greater good"... [13:19] <Expelliarmas> Had it been DD who killed Lily, Snape would have helped LV to bring down DD [13:19] <bemused> Even when he disagreed with it or didn't understand it, he still did what DD told him [13:20] <Shard> Aislinn I dont think the motive matters, its the action [13:20] <Aislinn> He was fighting to assuage his guilt over Lily, and to make LV pay for what he did to her. [13:20] <Shard> nd Snape helped Harry to defeat Voldemort [13:20] <vandy> its 11 50 PM here gotta sleep bye all [13:20] <Aislinn> motive is critical to me, Shard [13:20] <DumbleDebbie> bye vandy [13:20] *** vandy left #lounge [] [13:20] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [13:20] <Shard> But it doesn't negate that he was on Harry/DD's side against Voldemort [13:20] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has joined #lounge [13:20] <MrMcGonagall> I still think the question about Snape is really about his desire to atone rather than a question about loyalty. [13:20] *** Iheartprofessorsnape has quit [Bye] [13:20] <Aislinn> not negates, but modifies [13:21] <MrMcGonagall> Night, vandy! [13:21] <DumbleDebbie> no but it doesn't make him inherently 'good' either [13:21] <Aislinn> it makes a difference to how he chooses to handle things [13:21] <DumbleDebbie> liek Jo said he's still spiteful and a bully [13:21] <Shard> Because I think Jo wanted to show that "love is a redeemer" thus why Snape was in love with Lily, she was his one chance at redemption [13:21] <Shard> No one is saying that Snape is a white knight [13:21] <Shard> At least I'm not [13:21] <MrMcGonagall> Who ever thought a Slytherin would do something so selfless? -------------------- |
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Aug 11 2007, 02:32 PM
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#3
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Playing dominoes with the Fat Friar Posts: 2,189 Joined: 1:22pm June 3, 2006 Location: Visiting Luna to have wrackspurts removed |
[13:22] <Expelliarmas> Was there anything Snape could have done to change the outcome of his destiny? (Rooftop Garden)
[13:22] <Shard> Regulus surprised me and made me jump for joy lol [13:22] <Granjo> She called him a tragic hero. [13:22] <DumbleDebbie> lots of people are saying Snape was proven 'good' [13:22] <Aislinn> I think there were many things he could have done, much earlier in the story [13:22] <atschpe> need to run … by all [13:22] <Shard> Yeah but Good and Evil are very subjective terms [13:22] <Aislinn> bye atschpe [13:22] *** atschpe has quit [Bye] [13:22] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think so. DD's plan worked in the end. [13:22] <DumbleDebbie> he could have not joined the nasty DEs in the first place [13:22] <Shard> Yeah like figure out that Scabbers was actually Wormtail [13:22] <DumbleDebbie> and chosen better friends [13:22] <JaneMarple9> yes i think snape proved himself good - shock! horror! laugh [13:23] <Aislinn> Dd's plan was not the only way to defeat Voldy [13:23] <Aislinn> I don't even think it was the best plan. [13:23] <Granjo> This late, he did as much as he could to help. [13:23] <JaneMarple9> he realised how evil voldie was...he always helped dumbledore [13:23] <bemused> He could have backed out on his Slytherin friends as a boy [13:23] <Aislinn> yes, he could hav.e [13:24] <DumbleDebbie> he didn't care that Voldy was evil until it took away his one desired possession, Lily [13:24] <Shard> But he was too atracted to the dark arts to abandon them [13:24] <Braden> ooo aislinn, i'm curious to hear another plan [13:24] <Aislinn> And he could have learned from Lily's example, not only then, but in reaction to her death. [13:24] <Granjo> He chose the dark arts over liliy. [13:24] <Shard> He didn't listen to Lilly's complaints about them [13:24] <Expelliarmas> Actually, Jane, I disagree. He didn't always help DD. He only came to DD when he learned LV was to kill all the Potte4rs. He tried to negotiate Lily for James and HArry [13:24] <Aislinn> Dd was too caught up in secrets, Braden - he could have battled LV with more open means. [13:24] <MrMcGonagall> Snape could have changed his destiny dramatically in his youth, but once he set himself upon a course as an adult, things had to play out from there. [13:24] <Shard> Snape was too self-centered so long as he heard the words "James is a toe rag" he didn't care [13:24] *** bigMcman has joined #lounge [13:24] <Braden> yeah [13:24] <bemused> In his defence *cough* I don't think he understood, until it was too late, the difference between his friends and the MArauders [13:25] <Aislinn> letting everyone know that he was originally Tom Riddle, a half blood orphan [13:25] <JaneMarple9> agreeed mr McG [13:25] <Aislinn> would have undemined the whole pure blood cause that some rallied around. [13:25] <MrMcGonagall> His love for Lily always struggled with his love of the Dark Arts. [13:25] <Expelliarmas> Even years later, Snape tears off the picture of Lily and leaves behind the picture of James and Harry at Grimmauld Place [13:25] <Shard> I dont think he ever saw the difference between his friends tand the Marauders [13:25] <Braden> but it didn't with hitler aislinn [13:25] <Shard> Bella didn't seem to care Aislinn [13:26] <Aislinn> that was very late in the story, shard [13:26] <Shard> How would Snape even get that out? [13:26] <Expelliarmas> Bella had no heart and would never care [13:26] <bemused> I think he may have in the end, Shard - JKR confirmed that he wouldn't have been a DE if he could have his time again [13:26] <Aislinn> after years of committing to and being obsessed with voldy. [13:26] <Expelliarmas> Why did Snape opt to stick with his crowd after Lily called him on it? (Rooftop Garden) [13:26] <Shard> That's true Bemused but it was too late for him [13:26] <Spectre> Because it was CROWD [13:26] <Aislinn> because he thought he could have both [13:26] <DumbleDebbie> too weak [13:26] <Spectre> Something to oppose Marauders [13:26] <Braden> possibly because in "snape's worst memory" he felt like he lost his chance with lilly [13:26] <Aislinn> He truly didn't understand her aversion to what they represented [13:27] <JaneMarple9> because he didn't have any other friends [13:27] <MrMcGonagall> Snape, unfortunately, had other loves besides Lily. [13:27] <DumbleDebbie> lol Mr M [13:27] <bemused> Because he was in Slytherin, and they were the people he lived with and saw every day [13:27] <Aislinn> that was just the final straw, braden - it had been going on for years at that point. [13:27] <MrMcGonagall> He desired power, he desired respect, he wanted to control others. [13:27] <bemused> I blame it on the hat!!!! [13:27] <Aislinn> exactly Mr M [13:27] <Aislinn> but we know that students influence the choice of the hat, bemused. [13:27] <Spectre> Snape at Gryffindor? [13:28] <Aislinn> don't absolve snape that easily [13:28] <bemused> I don't see where you get that he desired power, Mr M [13:28] <Granjo> Not blame hat. Blame Choice. [13:28] <MrMcGonagall> Snape wanted to be in Slytherin. [13:28] <Braden> oh i do think think honesty and being more open would have helped aislinn, i'm not trying to discount that [13:28] <AuroraBR> I think the hat should have known [13:28] <Spectre> Lily for Slytherin is a no, she's Muggleborn... [13:28] <bemused> Well, I wouldn't expect you to, Aislinn, but DD did *wink* - 'we sort too soon' [13:28] <DumbleDebbie> I don't think the Sorting Hat looks at blood status [13:28] <Spectre> Snape would have had to protect her from Mulciber, Avery and other cronies... [13:28] <Aislinn> being in the role of double agent is an immensely powerful position bemused [13:28] <Shard> I think our choices matter with the Hat [13:28] <Aislinn> they do, shard [13:29] <Shard> I think SNape wanted Slytheirn so got it [13:29] <bemused> it's an immensely dangerous position - I think that's how he saw it [13:29] <Spectre> and struggling against BOTH Marauders and would-be-DEs is too much of a strain, I think... [13:29] <Aislinn> and was quite proud of his ability to negotiate that danger, bemused [13:29] <MrMcGonagall> Snape always struggled between his love for the Dark Arts and his affection for Lily. Incompatible desires. [13:29] <Braden> yeah but he also knew everything that both sides were planning, that has to make you feel important [13:29] <bemused> but at eleven, Shard, would he really have been equipped to understand what he was choosing? [13:29] <Aislinn> think back to the conversation during occlumency about it [13:29] <Expelliarmas> Reconsider Snape's Worst Memory from OotP. Which made it worse for him--James' humiliation or his loss of Lily as a friend? (Rooftop Garden) [13:29] <DumbleDebbie> the latter [13:29] <bemused> The loss of Lily, for sure [13:30] <AuroraBR> his loss of lily [13:30] <Aislinn> he had opportunities to turn away from it, bemused, with his best friend [13:30] <MrMcGonagall> I think it was the loss of Lily. I always said it. [13:30] <Aislinn> He chose not to. [13:30] <DumbleDebbie> there were probably lots of run ins with James [13:30] <Aislinn> loss of Lily, definitely. [13:30] <Expelliarmas> Calling Lily a mudblood and then losing her once and for all. She refused his apologies [13:30] <ginginkat> the loss of Lily's friendship [13:30] *** mdbennett has quit [Bye] [13:30] <bemused> Yes, Aislinn, that's true, [13:30] <Granjo> It would be interesting to see how the people would have developed had they all been mixed together for a year or two. [13:30] <Expelliarmas> It seems she tried to get Snape to see the future DEs for what they were and this was the last straw [13:30] <bemused> it was a mistake on his part which he afterwards regretted [13:30] <MrMcGonagall> The thing that made it the worst memory had to have been something other than a run-of-the-mill humiliation by the Marauders. [13:30] <Aislinn> yes, expie, that was my impression as well. [13:31] <FreedomStar> I'm out; lunchtime. smile Bye y'all [13:31] *** FreedomStar has quit [Bye] [13:31] <Aislinn> yet he didn't act on that regret, bemused. [13:31] <bemused> Notice that when Phineas referred to HErmione as a mudblood, Snape stopped him [13:31] <Aislinn> Lily was alive for at least 5-6 more years after that. [13:31] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, Snape learned his lesson about that one. [13:31] <Aislinn> She was a big enough person to befriend him again, if he had changed his path. [13:31] <Expelliarmas> It was Lily who finally saw Snape as he was, she had to put aside what he might be givenhis choices. [13:31] <bemused> but she was with James - he wouldn't really have been welcome [13:32] <Aislinn> I think that lesson was that he couldn't bear to hear the word that drove Lily away from him. [13:32] <Granjo> He learned that lesson very late. [13:32] <Expelliarmas> Lily started dating James in 7th year [13:32] <Aislinn> right, so there was another year before that happened. [13:32] <bemused> Yes, but in her death he realised what he had done wrong, and spent the rest of his life trying to atone [13:32] <Expelliarmas> What did you think of Snape's death? (Rooftop Garden) [13:32] <Granjo> Lily gave Snape plenty of time to change his mind. [13:32] <Braden> yeah i kind f wonder how snape's relationship with sirius and james would have worked out if snape had changed his tune [13:32] <Spectre> Gruesome [13:32] <bemused> It was vicious [13:32] <Aislinn> but not in actions that Lily would have condoned, in many instances. [13:32] <AuroraBR> expected more drama [13:33] <AuroraBR> more talk [13:33] <Spectre> Like Snape trying to duel Voldemort, even injuring him, Aurora? [13:33] <Expelliarmas> He pretty much got what DEs expected to get from LV [13:33] <MrMcGonagall> I think he was astounded at the accuracy of DD's prediction about the snake, and he was desperate to convey to Harry the information that DD asked him to pass on. [13:33] <Aislinn> it was quite brutal, and was so karmic for a tragic person who chose the path that Snape chose. [13:33] <bemused> I think she would have condoned protecting her son... she might also have understood his bitterness [13:33] <Granjo> It was extremely cruel and disgusting. [13:33] <JaneMarple9> i thought there would be more to it [13:33] <Shard> I think Snapes death was the only way to handle the plot [13:34] <Shard> Snape could not be AK'ed because he wouldn't be able to give over the memories to Harry [13:34] <Aislinn> as a mother, would you be tolerant of his treatment of children? [13:34] <Braden> yeah it was brutal, but the only way he could pass on memories [13:34] <Braden> well said shard [13:34] <AuroraBR> I just thought there would be more [13:34] <Shard> I dont think it would hav e worked well had Snape not been dying [13:34] <Aislinn> I know I wouldn't tolerate that towards any child of mine. [13:34] <JaneMarple9> i did not expect him to die that way -although he was a marked man from book 6 [13:34] <MrMcGonagall> It was an horrific death. [13:34] <Shard> Aislinn, he's certainly better then Umbridge I think though still nasty [13:34] <Aislinn> it's not an either/or shard [13:34] <MrMcGonagall> And so pointless, too, as he was not the true owner of the Wand. [13:35] <bemused> No you're right, but as his childhood friend, Aislinn, knowing his story, I think she might have understood [13:35] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M - a tragic, pointless death. [13:35] <MrMcGonagall> LV kills him as callously as he would anyone. [13:35] <Expelliarmas> Yes, but LV did not care about that. That's just how LV rolls [13:35] *** Inner has joined #lounge [13:35] <DumbleDebbie> I thought it was interesting that Snape didn't go out with a bang but with a whimper [13:35] <Spectre> But Voldemort feared to attack Snape with the Elder Wand because he didn't know the consequences [13:35] <Expelliarmas> McGonagall, Flitwick, and Sprout chased off Snape. What did you think of that? (Rooftop Garden) [13:35] <MrMcGonagall> Excellent point, Spectre. [13:35] <Spectre> ...and he was right biggrin [13:35] <DumbleDebbie> woot! [13:35] <bemused> Yes, it's the callous nature of it - since as far as LV knowns, Snape is loyal to him [13:35] <JaneMarple9> great! [13:35] <Granjo> I loved it. [13:35] <Shard> So is Snape a bat animagus then/ [13:35] <Spectre> They are loyal to Dumbledore... [13:35] *** Inner has quit [Bye] [13:36] <Braden> yeah but LV is loyal only to himself [13:36] <JaneMarple9> just the way the head of houses should react! [13:36] <DumbleDebbie> the Snape-shaped hole in the window was LOL [13:36] <Aislinn> understand and tolerate are two different things [13:36] <MrMcGonagall> As much as I love McG's duel with Snape, I have to wonder what would have happened if she had let him finish speaking. [13:36] <bemused> Given what they knew, they were bound to do it and they made a good job of it too [13:36] <Expelliarmas> Well, did Snape let them chase him off? Or, did they really chase Snape off? [13:36] <Granjo> I think it was his cape [13:36] <JaneMarple9> that was funny...the snape shaped hole! laugh [13:36] <Spectre> He wouldn't stand against McGonagall and Flitwick together [13:36] <Shard> Both [13:36] <Shard> I think he realised he couldn't face them and didnt want to kill them so left [13:36] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:36] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:36] <JaneMarple9> he did not want to hurt them [13:36] <MrMcGonagall> I think he knew he was outnumbered and overpowered when Sprout and Flitwick showed up. The thing is, he didn't really want to harm his opponents, and they were dueling to kill. [13:36] <bemused> It's an interesting point, Mr M - but do you think there was anything Snape could have said that they would have believed? [13:37] <Expelliarmas> Professor McGonagall only knew Snape was DD's killer and had allowed abused to go on [13:37] <JaneMarple9> he knew he was not popular on the staff [13:37] <Shard> Nope, only pensieve memories would hav e worked [13:37] <Spectre> I wonder what would Slughorn do if he caught up to the duel smile [13:37] <Shard> And c learly that wasn't about to happen [13:37] <Aislinn> I think he probably needed to flee at that point, but I don't know that he had to go to LV [13:37] <Shard> Hence why Snape got a snake bit tot he neck [13:37] <DumbleDebbie> watch to see who'd win Spectre [13:37] <Granjo> He knew they would not believe the truth. [13:37] <bemused> He didn't, Aislinn, Lv had to send Lucius to find him [13:38] <Expelliarmas> McGonagall gave Horace Slughorn an ultimatum. Either with us or against us. If Horace was against them, then McGonagall would duel him to kill. What did you think of that? (Rooftop Garden) [13:38] <Spectre> Gryffindor [13:38] <Aislinn> but he didn't have to go [13:38] <Granjo> He was called to Voldie. [13:38] <Spectre> Totally Gryffindor [13:38] <DumbleDebbie> GO Minerva! [13:38] <MrMcGonagall> Go, McG!!!! [13:38] <Expelliarmas> Can I say I cheered that bit of ol' Minerva!! [13:38] <bemused> It's war, I spose [13:38] <Braden> slughorn needed to finally pick a side [13:38] <Aislinn> Minerva was magnificent! [13:38] <Expelliarmas> Poor Sluggy [13:38] <MrMcGonagall> I love when her Gryffindor colors shine through. [13:38] <Spectre> and Slughorn finally picked his side, shoulder to shoulder with McGonagall against Voldy... [13:38] <Granjo> Great Minerva!! [13:39] <JaneMarple9> minevra was unbelieveable! [13:39] <DumbleDebbie> yes, she's brilliant when she gets her Gryffindor on [13:39] <Aislinn> She did not stop him leaving, was just telling him that she would stand up to him if he chose the DE side. [13:39] <Shard> thats why your MrMCG right? [13:39] <bemused> I loved the scene of her marshalling the desks into battle [13:39] <Expelliarmas> The Ravenclaws get to step up in this book. What did you think of their performance? (Rooftop Garden) [13:39] <JaneMarple9> Your wife did well Mr McG laugh [13:39] <Spectre> Luna! [13:39] <DumbleDebbie> well done [13:39] <Shard> The Ravenclaws were cool [13:39] *** bigMcman has quit [Bye] [13:39] <promom> I guess she figured "if you're not for me, you're against me!" [13:39] <Spectre> Both Lovegoods, for that matter smile [13:39] <bemused> Luna was wonderful [13:39] <DumbleDebbie> Luna in particular was brilliant [13:39] <Granjo> Luna was wonderful. [13:39] <Aislinn> Luna was beautiful in so many ways in this book. [13:39] <AuroraBR> Loved Luna! [13:40] <MrMcGonagall> I was fairly impressed with the Ravenclaws. Loved their common room. [13:40] <JaneMarple9> i always knew they would - jo said ravenclaw would have their day [13:40] <Spectre> And Flitwick - defeating Dolohov, one of the most formidable DE warriors [13:40] <bemused> I loved Luna's bedroom ceiling [13:40] <Aislinn> yes, the common room was lovely [13:40] <DumbleDebbie> I love how they have to get past the door [13:40] <JaneMarple9> the common room was great and luna! [13:40] <Spectre> Helena Ravenclaw though is another story sad [13:40] <Expelliarmas> I loved learning from their ghost how she came to be there and about the bloody baron [13:40] <Aislinn> that was so poignant, bemused [13:40] <JaneMarple9> luna was outstanding [13:40] <Braden> yeah i'm glad we got to see more of ravenclaw [13:40] <JaneMarple9> awww i liked helena ravenclaw's story [13:40] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [13:40] <Spectre> Xeno Lovegood also played a crucial role in the plot [13:40] <Aislinn> hi cloudpic [13:40] <DumbleDebbie> I had wondered since PS how the Bloddy Baron got bloody, now we know [13:40] <promom> I wish we had seen more of Ravenclaw earlier. [13:40] <DumbleDebbie> hey cp!!! [13:40] <JaneMarple9> i always wanted to know about the grey lady [13:41] * cloudpic sorry to be so late [13:41] <JaneMarple9> ((((((Cloudpic))))) great to see you! [13:41] <Expelliarmas> The Slytherin House was also given an ultimatum, to decide on its loyalty. What did you think of their en masse exit? (Rooftop Garden) [13:41] <DumbleDebbie> good to 'see' you! [13:41] <MrMcGonagall> They acted according to their nature. [13:41] <DumbleDebbie> disappointing, but typical [13:41] <Aislinn> I was disappointed that not even one student opted to stay [13:41] <cloudpic> thanks.... oh, I wasn't surprised at the Slyth. exit... [13:41] <bemused> I was rather sad that not one of them changed sides [13:41] <JaneMarple9> was not surprised at all [13:41] <Expelliarmas> I was a bit disappointed that they all left [13:41] <Granjo> Expected them to go. [13:41] <Spectre> Disappointment. [13:41] <MrMcGonagall> They're all about self-preservation. [13:41] <cloudpic> Yes, that was it, disappointed [13:41] <Braden> it isn't surprising. i don't think people enjoy being told what to do. some of them would have been fighting against family and friends if they ahd stayed [13:41] <JaneMarple9> i always knew they were cowards! [13:41] * Expelliarmas would have loved for Pansy to get nailed [13:42] * cloudpic wonders what she would have done... it was scary! [13:42] <bemused> after all, with Regulus and (shhh) Severus, we know they are capable of choosing the right side [13:42] <Expelliarmas> hah! cloudpic, you would have stayed [13:42] <Spectre> Though... who of of-age Slytherins was even remotely friendly? [13:42] <Aislinn> it was such a wonderful moment, when the rest of the HOuses stood up in front of Harry, at Pansy's words [13:42] <cloudpic> LOL [13:42] <DumbleDebbie> yes Aislinn that was great [13:42] <JaneMarple9> slughirn was the only decent slytherin...except for a certain someone else [13:42] <bemused> and you think that there might have been one DE's child ready to rebel against their parents [13:42] <cloudpic> thanks, Expie, I hope so... yes they were glorious. [13:42] <Expelliarmas> Did the House of Slytherin redeem itself at all in Deathly Hallows? Why or why not? (Rooftop Garden) [13:43] <bemused> yes, Aislinn, that moment made me want to cry! [13:43] <Aislinn> yes, bemused, that age is a ripe one for rebellion! [13:43] <Spectre> It did. [13:43] <Spectre> Snape, Regulus, Slughorn, Phineas... and even Draco [13:43] <Expelliarmas> Regulus drank the potion, not Kreacher. Sirius didn't know his brother at all. [13:43] <Aislinn> Regulus helped to redeem the Slytherins [13:43] <Granjo> Only a little. [13:43] <JaneMarple9> no they didn't redeem itself for me. The students left [13:43] <DumbleDebbie> seems to be the same old, same old for the most part [13:43] <cloudpic> I felt that we saw some... movement in the right direction, yes, those folks especially Spectre [13:43] <DumbleDebbie> Regulus is the one who impressed me the most [13:43] <Braden> well i think that they didn't joing the attack against hogwarts, so that's a plus, and what everyone else is saying [13:43] <bemused> Yes... Regulus, Severus, Slughorn, Phineas... [13:43] <bemused> even Narciss lied about Harry [13:43] <Expelliarmas> I'm not convinced about Snape given his motivation was only Lily. But Slughorn and Phineas were helpful. [13:43] <Aislinn> me too, debbie - his choice was truly a noble one. [13:44] <Spectre> Slughorn in his pyjamas leading reinforcements into battle in Chapter 36, that was dramatic [13:44] <Expelliarmas> Narcissa stepped up when it was time [13:44] <cloudpic> So many of those Slyth 17 year olds had parents who they'd have been fighting to the death though... [13:44] <JaneMarple9> regulus was a intriguing character [13:44] <DumbleDebbie> Narcissa had 1 priority, her son, which is, at least, love driven [13:44] <AuroraBR> Narcissa lied because she wanted to see Draco! [13:44] <Aislinn> I loved that Jo showed Narcissa's love for her son [13:44] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, Slughorn dueled LV, Regulus defied the Dark Lord, Snape showed a hidden streak of bravery. [13:44] <Granjo> It seems to take slytherins longer than most to recognize evil. [13:44] <Aislinn> it was a totally Slytherin thing to do, but it took a lot of courage [13:44] <Expelliarmas> Narcissa has always loved Draco and has been willing to sacrifice herself to save him [13:44] <DumbleDebbie> she had the guts to defy Voldy for her family [13:44] <bemused> I thought the Malfoys became much more interesting in this book [13:45] <Spectre> They are loyal to their family more than to anyone/anything else [13:45] <DumbleDebbie> they were definitely between the proverbial rock and hard place [13:45] <cloudpic> She really was something in DH, Narcissa... she took command of the family even in those last scary hours [13:45] <Expelliarmas> McGonagall required Filch to do her bidding and then transfigured various statues and suits of armor to protect the school and do their duty. What did you think of her taking command of the situation? (Rooftop Garden) [13:45] <Spectre> Narcissa is a Black still smile [13:45] <MrMcGonagall> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. Our Wize Wizard chat on Neville Longbottom will be this Wednesday from 7-9 pm EDT. [13:45] <DumbleDebbie> it was awesome! [13:45] <DumbleDebbie> you go girl! [13:45] <bemused> She was brilliant! [13:45] <JaneMarple9> narcissa was definately the leader of the malfoys [13:45] <Aislinn> McGonagall, the Commander! [13:45] <MrMcGonagall> I think Minerva had been longing for this moment for months. [13:46] <Spectre> McGonagall is superb in her few scenes [13:46] <Expelliarmas> I was so happy to see Minerva in command [13:46] <JaneMarple9> mcGonagall was brilliant [13:46] <cloudpic> LOL.... I'ved loved Minerva from the beginning!! but you know... she really wouldn't have beaten Snape in a duel... he left rather than fight her [13:46] <Granjo> It took this extreme situation to get them to see beyond their dress robes. [13:46] <Expelliarmas> she stepped up and didn't back down for an instant [13:46] <bemused> And I loved the way she showed real affection for Harry [13:46] <DumbleDebbie> yes, Mr M, the situation at the school must have had her steaming [13:46] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M, it must have been killing her to have the school taken over as it had been all year. [13:46] <MrMcGonagall> This is where we see the goddess of wisdom also showing her colors as a warrior. [13:46] <Shard> McMognacall shows us why she is to be the next Headmistress [13:46] <cloudpic> And.... she produced multiple Patronuses! [13:46] <JaneMarple9> especailly recruiting the suits of armour - bedknobs and broomsticks style laugh [13:46] <cloudpic> Goddess of Wisdom and of War Mr. McG. [13:46] <promom> Minverva has always been a tough cookie. I wouldn't have expected anything less from her. [13:46] <Aislinn> She isn't though, Shard, according to Jo [13:46] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, the triple Patronus was way cool! [13:47] <Shard> She is, but then dies 17 yearas later [13:47] <JaneMarple9> yeah that was impressive - three cats. What else could her patronus be??? [13:47] <Expelliarmas> What did Harry’s return to Hogwarts mean to the students who had been resisting throughout the school year? (Rooftop Garden) [13:47] *** DMD has joined #lounge [13:47] <Spectre> Irony - McGonagall and Umbridge sharing the patronus smile [13:47] <Shard> Jane- I loved that movie [13:47] <Aislinn> it was such a boost for all of them [13:47] <bemused> Return of their leader [13:47] <Aislinn> He was the flag around which they rallied [13:47] <DMD> Sorry I'm so late...have you had a good chat? [13:47] <cloudpic> I'd think it would hearten and rally them... but, I loved Neville's leadership. [13:47] <DumbleDebbie> hope [13:47] <Shard> I think theres a parallell between Umbridge and her, I think Umbridge is a Dark McGonagall [13:47] <Aislinn> quite good, yes smile [13:48] <DumbleDebbie> DMD!!!! [13:48] <DumbleDebbie> (((((DMD)))) [13:48] <bemused> hello DMD! [13:48] * cloudpic says Hi, DMD... [13:48] <Granjo> Where did you learn that? I really wanted her to be headmistress, but JKR said she was too old. [13:48] <Expelliarmas> What did you think of Percy’s return? Were you convinced by his apology? (Rooftop Garden) [13:48] <DMD> Whoa, new screen format...that throws an old gal like me! [13:48] <cloudpic> Don't you think that of the polar opposites we've noticed in the series... that maybe Umbridge is Minerva's? [13:48] <MrMcGonagall> Umbridge always had a thing for fluffy cats. I would also remind Shard that Ginny had a fondness for cats. ;) [13:48] <Braden> yes. i think LV taking over the ministry shook sense into him [13:48] <DumbleDebbie> I was happy to see him show up. although the reasoning was sort of 'huh?' [13:48] <cloudpic> I was totally convinced by Percy's apology. [13:48] <bemused> I wasn't particularly bothered about PErcy but I did love his return [13:49] <cloudpic> He was there willing to die. [13:49] <Shard> She became headmisstress right after Snape but then passed on by the time Harry's kids go there [13:49] <Aislinn> I struggled a little with Percy, just because he never returned when Arthur was so close to death. [13:49] <MrMcGonagall> Pleased at Percy's return, although it seems a little contrived. [13:49] <Spectre> The apology was too simple, reminded me of some Leaky Lounge threads smile [13:49] <Shard> Your a little hard on people Aislinn [13:49] <Aislinn> His return was well written though, if a bit contrived. [13:49] <Shard> Were seeing this from Harry's POV [13:49] <DumbleDebbie> I expected some tragic event to be the catalyst for his return [13:49] <Shard> How do we know that Percy didn [13:49] <cloudpic> I don't know Mr. McG. it took an avalanche to fall on him... you know of deathbed turn arounds [13:49] <Spectre> Yes... Percy in, Fred out sad [13:49] <Shard> come to the room when Arthur was asleep but didn't say anything? [13:49] <DMD> I was all done with Percy.... [13:49] <Expelliarmas> There was a tragic event, DD, Arthur nearly dying in OOTP [13:50] <DumbleDebbie> lol DMD [13:50] <Shard> Who knew that he was supposed to die there sad [13:50] <Shard> So glad he didnt [13:50] <DumbleDebbie> I mean in this book Expie [13:50] <Braden> yeah [13:50] <Expelliarmas> What did you think of Fred being the first to forgive Percy? (Rooftop Garden) [13:50] <MrMcGonagall> Honestly, I think Percy had been coming around to the Order's side for some time, but it required a decisive event for him to show his colors. [13:50] <Shard> I thought it was awesome [13:50] <cloudpic> Percy is flawed... moreso than most of the "good" side... but he came through. [13:50] <bemused> But we don't know what PErcy heard about his father from within the Ministry, and he hadn't seent hrough the Ministry then [13:50] <DumbleDebbie> that was sweet [13:50] <Aislinn> I think he finally came to his senses, and remembered who he was and what should be important to him [13:50] <cloudpic> That was brilliant. [13:50] <Aislinn> It was brilliant. [13:51] <cloudpic> Fred's always had the quickest mind... he grasped the change and read it right [13:51] <Spectre> That was bittersweet... the very last words Fred spoke were to Percy [13:51] <MrMcGonagall> The twins do tend to get over a shock more quickly. [13:51] <AuroraBR> so sad! [13:51] <cloudpic> and Percy gave him a laugh as his parting gift [13:51] <bemused> I thought it was really good - a feelgood moment... [13:51] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M, they were always adaptable. [13:51] <MrMcGonagall> Fred is quick-witted. [13:51] <DumbleDebbie> happy_crying [13:51] <Expelliarmas> Did Aberforth ever forgive Albus? (Rooftop Garden) [13:52] <DumbleDebbie> i.e. 'rapier wit' ? ;) [13:52] <DumbleDebbie> nope, he doesn't seem to have [13:52] <DumbleDebbie> which is sad [13:52] <DMD> The twins thrive on causing shock and know how shallow it can really be. Fred just took it in stride. [13:52] <bemused> In his actions, I think he did [13:52] <cloudpic> hmmm... crotchety old guy wouldn't admit it if he did [13:52] <AuroraBR> I don't think aberforth forgave albus [13:52] <MrMcGonagall> I don't know that Aberforth really did. He doesn't seem a man of complicated emotions. [13:52] <Aislinn> I think that Harry's words about Albus's struggle in the cave probably helped him resolve some of his feelings. [13:52] <cloudpic> Yes, bemused, I think actions do speak louder [13:52] <bemused> You notice with Aberforth the talk was all, get away, it's finished, but he's there fighting with the rest of them [13:52] <MrMcGonagall> Aberforth has borne a grudge for all these years. Why not a little longer? [13:52] *** bigMcman has joined #lounge [13:53] <Expelliarmas> In some ways, I do think he did forgive Albus--but only after Harry told him what happened in the cave [13:53] <cloudpic> Oh, I'd forgotten that, Aislinn, quite so! [13:53] <DumbleDebbie> hi bigMcman [13:53] <bemused> I think it may have made a big difference to him when Harry told him about the cave [13:53] <bigMcman> hi dumbledidee! sorry im joining quite late! [13:53] <Aislinn> He really loved his sister, and needed to know that Albus did too. [13:53] <DumbleDebbie> I had forgotten that too, just was thinking of his colored version of th Ariana story [13:53] <MrMcGonagall> It's kind of a Dudleyish gesture. Very hesitant, but it's there. [13:53] <Expelliarmas> Did you forgive Albus? (Rooftop Garden) [13:53] <Aislinn> Yes [13:53] <Spectre> For what? [13:53] <DumbleDebbie> yes [13:53] <bemused> Yes [13:53] <DMD> It can be much easier to forgive than to forget....Aberforth never forgot and as we see, neither did Albus [13:54] <Shard> Yes [13:54] <Braden> yes [13:54] <ginginkat> yes [13:54] <MrMcGonagall> I forgave Albus. [13:54] <Expelliarmas> If you forgave Albus, why did you do so? [13:54] <cloudpic> He never needed my forgiveness... I never and still haven't stopped respecting him for who he is and what he needed to do. [13:54] <Aislinn> Albus was doing what he thought gave the world, and Harry, the best chance at surviving and overcoming LV [13:54] <AuroraBR> albus was human... he made mistakes [13:54] <Granjo> He has to have done or would never have worked so hard in swcret for this whole year. [13:54] <Granjo> He worked so hard to help the DA, It shows he did forgive. [13:54] <Granjo> It was old news. I had nothing to forgive. [13:54] <Aislinn> even if he was wrong about some of it, his heart was in the right place. [13:54] <bemused> I don't really feel that I had anything to forgive him for [13:54] <MrMcGonagall> He made some poor, imprudent decisions in his youth. [13:54] <Shard> Because it explains why DD insists on giving EVERYONE a second chance [13:55] <Shard> Becayuse he needed one [13:55] <bemused> He was what he always was - we just learned more about him [13:55] <DumbleDebbie> yes, I do think he make some bad choices but did it out of love and loss [13:55] <Spectre> Sometimes there's something greater than "the greater good"... [13:55] * cloudpic would not want to be judged only by her faulty decisions... [13:55] <Braden> he knew his weakness and stepped up when needed [13:55] <AuroraBR> i agree with debbie [13:55] <DumbleDebbie> LOL cp [13:55] <bigMcman> and showed sufficient remorse to be forgiven! [13:55] <ginginkat> We are all human, muggle or wizard, and make mistakes, he changed as he aged. [13:56] <MrMcGonagall> DD was wiser and better than most of us, probably, so I can forgive him his errors. He was aware of them and regretted them deeply. [13:56] <Expelliarmas> Why was Ginny so determined to join the fight? Why was Molly so determined to keep her out of it? (Rooftop Garden) [13:56] <promom> Good point, Shard, about DD giving/needing 2nd chances. [13:56] <cloudpic> I think some of the anger and dismay exhibited by fans toward Dumbledore was a part of their grief process... loss of the series [13:56] <DumbleDebbie> but when he realized what lengths Grindlewald would go to (Crucioing Aberforth) he saw that tthat was the wrong way about things [13:56] <DMD> But the bigger man has loss and misery thrust upon him and yet doesn't make those poor choices [13:56] <DumbleDebbie> two stubborn redheads! [13:56] <MrMcGonagall> Ginny's Gryffindor, through and through. [13:56] <bemused> Because Ginny is a fighter - and everyone she loved was in there fighting [13:56] <Shard> Ginny wanted to help fight for tose she cared for [13:56] <cloudpic> Ginny knows she's capable and Molly wishes to protect her underage and only daughter [13:56] <MrMcGonagall> Molly does hold her only daughter very near and dear. [13:56] <Shard> I agree with MrMcG [13:57] <Braden> yeah well said everyone [13:57] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:57] <cloudpic> LOL DumbleDebbie... that says it! [13:57] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:57] <JaneMarple9> molly rocked [13:57] <Shard> Molly fears that Ginny will be killed, she is the youngest afterall [13:57] <DumbleDebbie> biggrin [13:57] <promom> Ginny is competitive and not use to backing down. Molly was a mom and Ginny was her youngest and only daughter. [13:57] <Spectre> Molly cares for her daughter... that's why she got Bella [13:57] <MrMcGonagall> The Locketcrux had a point. Manipulating the truth to try and hurt Ron. [13:57] <Shard> Then Molly totaly pwns Bella which was awesome [13:57] <bigMcman> ginny couldnt stand not fighting while those she loved were on the battlefields. Molly loves her children too much to willingly let them risk their lives. [13:57] <Granjo> DD's whole adult life showed his remorse and learning from mistakes. [13:57] <DMD> Totally Dumbledebbie!! [13:57] <DumbleDebbie> CAPSLOCK Molly was fabulous [13:57] <DumbleDebbie> although i was still afriad she'd die [13:57] <cloudpic> *sniff* for young CC [13:57] <Spectre> what was the curse, though smile [13:58] <Granjo> Molly was superb. [13:58] <AuroraBR> molly's duel with bella was the best! [13:58] <Expelliarmas> Well peeps, if you have not sorted into a Reading Group, follow this link: http://www.leakylounge.com/index.php?act=Sorting&CODE=01 . We are still sorting members into Reading Groups. Hope to see you in one of the Reading Groups: Rooftop Garden, Dragon’s Den, and Luminous Loft. [13:58] <Shard> I think it was a stunner spell [13:58] <Spectre> Does Stupefy kill if directed at heart? [13:58] <DumbleDebbie> bye everyone smile [13:58] <Shard> ut it gave Bella heart failure and thus died [13:58] <AuroraBR> bye! [13:58] <Shard> because Molly is full of Love and Bella is full of rotten Hate [13:58] <DMD> Have a good one! [13:58] * JaneMarple9 prepares to be hugged [13:58] <cloudpic> (((hugs))) to you all... will see you in the Lily and Stag!! smile [13:58] *** DumbleDebbie left #lounge [] [13:58] <Spectre> bye all smile [13:58] <Granjo> Bye all. [13:58] *** DMD left #lounge [Leaving] [13:58] <promom> See ya! [13:58] <Shard> Bye all [13:58] *** cloudpic has quit [Bye] [13:58] <MrMcGonagall> Bye, everybody! [13:59] *** Spectre has quit [Bye] [13:59] <JaneMarple9> it's been a while since a hug in the booth! [13:59] <bemused> bye everyone! [13:59] <Braden> bye everyone [13:59] <bigMcman> see ya soon everyone!! [13:59] *** promom has quit [Bye] [13:59] *** Granjo left #lounge [Leaving] [13:59] <JaneMarple9> (((((all boothers))))))))) [13:59] *** bigMcman has quit [Bye] [13:59] *** Shard has quit [Bye] [13:59] <ginginkat> bye all [13:59] *** Braden left #lounge [Leaving] [13:59] *** bemused has quit [Bye] [13:59] <AuroraBR> see you at Rooftop Garden! -------------------- |
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