Reading Group Chat Transcript 8/18/07, Ch. 1-3 of Deathly Hallows |
 Aug 18 2007, 02:17 PM
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Chief Cat Herder  Posts: 3,514 Joined: 10:28am August 6, 2005 Location: In the Corner Booth - home of the elusive Holy Grain!    |
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[12:56] *** futureweasley has joined #lounge [12:56] *** Snuffles changed the topic to: Open Reading Group Chat Chapters 1 - 3 of Deathly Hallows (Aislinn) [12:56] <SoonerGryffindor> woot [12:56] <futureweasley> here we are...first DH RG chat! [12:59] *** MrMcGonagall has joined #lounge [12:59] <futureweasley> wootywoohoowahey! [12:59] <MrMcGonagall> Wootywoohoowahey! [13:00] *** Theoriser has joined #lounge [13:00] <Theoriser> hi! [13:00] <Aislinn> and wootywoohoowahey! [13:01] <Theoriser> it's been so long I almost forgot what the booth looked like tongue [13:01] *** PrunellaGringepith has joined #lounge [13:01] <Aislinn> lol [13:01] *** DumbleDebbie has joined #lounge [13:01] *** blue4t has joined #lounge [13:01] <Aislinn> hi prunella, debbie, blue! [13:01] <DumbleDebbie> hey there smile [13:01] <PrunellaGringepith> afternoon all [13:01] <blue4t> Hi [13:02] <DumbleDebbie> so I have a RG gripe to air... [13:02] <DumbleDebbie> I chose an Academic room, which I really like, but because of that I can't get into the common room and catch up with all the RG folks who are in the L&S rooms sad [13:02] *** JaneMarple9 has joined #lounge [13:03] <DumbleDebbie> hi Jane [13:03] <JaneMarple9> test [13:03] <JaneMarple9> great! [13:03] <futureweasley> that's a pain, Debbie...I'm sorry. [13:03] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [13:03] <JaneMarple9> smile [13:03] <DumbleDebbie> yeah fw, it really stinks [13:03] <JaneMarple9> it's saturday!!! [13:03] <fawkes28> hello all smile [13:03] <MrMcGonagall> Hi, fawkes! [13:03] <DumbleDebbie> my sister is in a L&S room so she showed me what she can see [13:03] <PrunellaGringepith> hi fawkes [13:03] <DumbleDebbie> and I miss all the RG peeps who aren't in my room [13:04] *** Puzzlepiece has joined #lounge [13:04] <DumbleDebbie> hi fawkes, puzzle [13:04] <Puzzlepiece> hey. glad to be back [13:04] *** ascellaskat has joined #lounge [13:04] <DumbleDebbie> hi ascellaskat [13:04] <ascellaskat> hello everyone smile [13:04] <DumbleDebbie> hey Theo (when did you sneak in?) [13:04] <Theoriser> hi [13:05] <JaneMarple9> hi Theoriser smile [13:05] <Puzzlepiece> how were all of your july 21's [13:05] <DumbleDebbie> someone said the Knights Room is for OT but there's no OT thread. what's more my sister whos in a L&S group can see both the L&S common room and the knights room , but I can only see the knights one :P [13:05] <DumbleDebbie> it's anti-academic distrimination :P [13:06] <DumbleDebbie> LOL *discrimination [13:06] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, I'm wicked smaaht [13:06] *** blue4t has quit [Bye] [13:06] <DumbleDebbie> sleep-deprived puzzle [13:06] *** blue4t has joined #lounge [13:07] *** blue4t_ has joined #lounge [13:07] <futureweasley> we'll talk to Doris and Nick and see if we can sort it out...I don't know about the permissions and whatnot, but we'll see what we can find out [13:07] *** blue4t has quit [Bye] [13:07] <DumbleDebbie> thanks smile [13:07] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:07] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:07] <futureweasley> sure [13:07] <DumbleDebbie> I was gone for so long and then I'd been catching up in my room and then it hit me what was missing.. all the OT fun [13:07] <MrMcGonagall> It's possible to re-sort today as well. [13:07] <DumbleDebbie> well I don't want to re-sort. I like my room [13:07] *** bemused has joined #lounge [13:07] <DumbleDebbie> hi bemused [13:08] <bemused> hello [13:08] <Aislinn> hey bemused! [13:08] <futureweasley> hi bemused [13:08] <bemused> er... future - I'm not a 'halfop' any more! [13:08] <fawkes28> bemused!!! [13:09] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [13:09] <DumbleDebbie> after traveling for the last few weeks it's nice to actually be home on a Saturday [13:09] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:09] <DumbleDebbie> lol [13:09] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:09] <futureweasley> well boo! [13:09] <Puzzlepiece> what is this chat about now that the book is out? [13:09] <futureweasley> hahaha, I love ya [13:09] <MrMcGonagall> We'll be discussing chapters 1-3 of DH today. [13:10] <DumbleDebbie> I believe it's about the book puzzle [13:11] <PrunellaGringepith> The book? Not much to talk about there is there??? smile [13:11] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, we will be following the chapters as the RG's do them [13:11] <DumbleDebbie> oh a thing or two [13:11] <MrMcGonagall> LOL. Not a bit, prunella. [13:11] <DumbleDebbie> wink [13:11] <DumbleDebbie> we should have it all tied up in an hour or two wink [13:11] <JaneMarple9> laugh [13:12] <PrunellaGringepith> i should think so [13:12] <DumbleDebbie> pretty straightfoward, really [13:12] <JaneMarple9> ten minutes should do it - quite a boring book really [13:12] <DumbleDebbie> biggrin [13:12] <ascellaskat> lol [13:12] <DumbleDebbie> lol [13:12] <PrunellaGringepith> pretty straightforward really [13:12] <JaneMarple9> hero defeats bad guy - the end! [13:12] * bemused thinks they must have been reading a different book wink [13:12] <DumbleDebbie> yay! [13:12] <JaneMarple9> laugh [13:13] <Puzzlepiece> though through the first bit I was convinced it was not hte real copy. The first 92 pages I read over the internet [13:13] <DumbleDebbie> I have to say, I liked it much better after my 2nd read than after my 1st [13:13] <Puzzlepiece> i was in denial till I saw the hardback [13:13] <MrMcGonagall> My 2nd read went much better, too. [13:14] <DumbleDebbie> now I'm reading it a 3rd time, this time the Canadian version [13:14] <futureweasley> I loved it the first time...double loved it the second [13:14] <blue4t_> I haven't done a second read, but I've gone through so many chapters it's almost like I've read this book 10 times. [13:14] <Theoriser> I loved it the first time I read it, and I think it got even better the second time [13:14] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:14] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:14] <SoonerGryffindor> I am on my 4th read and I have already listented to it on audio 3 times [13:14] <SoonerGryffindor> I love it more each time [13:14] <Puzzlepiece> Havent had time to go through it a second time [13:14] <DumbleDebbie> LOL that's awesome Sooner [13:14] <Theoriser> wow, I've only read it twice so far [13:14] <MrMcGonagall> I didn't love it that much. [13:14] <ascellaskat> have re-read most of it and listened to it on audio and each time I just love it even more [13:15] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, it leapt up my list of favs. it's right behind OotP, but I think it may be #1 soon [13:15] <fawkes28> i am just starting it for the 3rd time [13:15] <futureweasley> obsess-much, sooner? :P [13:15] <JaneMarple9> it is just so wonderful! Only read it and listened to it twice! [13:15] <Theoriser> some sections of it I've gone back and read more [13:15] <fawkes28> PoA is still my favorite [13:15] <DumbleDebbie> her fw? never! [13:15] <PrunellaGringepith> i resisted the temptation to read it a third time until the RG went though it [13:15] <SoonerGryffindor> never future [13:15] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [13:15] <futureweasley> hahaha [13:15] <JaneMarple9> it's right on top of the series for me, took the place of OotP [13:15] <Puzzlepiece> I havent found the time or the courage to read it again [13:15] *** HeliumHead has joined #lounge [13:15] <SoonerGryffindor> me too Jane [13:15] <DumbleDebbie> hi helium [13:15] <SoonerGryffindor> and i didnt think anything would ever take the place of oopt [13:15] <blue4t_> I'm just waiting for my sister and brother to get done with it so I can discuss it with them. [13:16] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, I'm working on another book series concurrently, so I deferred a third reading until the RGs started. [13:16] <HeliumHead> hi everyone [13:16] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, me either, Sooner, but I think once I finish this 3rd read it will for me too [13:16] <SoonerGryffindor> hello helium, we aer about to start [13:16] <ascellaskat> PoA is still my favorite though [13:16] <MrMcGonagall> Me too, ascellaskat. [13:17] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [13:17] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [13:17] <Aislinn> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You're not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you'll be able to type again soon. [13:17] <Aislinn> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod. [13:17] <Aislinn> You won't be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it" in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [13:17] <Aislinn> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [13:18] <Aislinn> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [13:18] <futureweasley> Deathly Hallows begins with a couple of Death Eaters chatting on their way to the DE headquarters, Malfoy Manor. The DEs have gathered for a meeting, above them spins Professor Burbage. The DEs go over plans to intercept Harry on his 17th birthday. There's also a plan to kill Scrimgeour. [13:18] <futureweasley> According to Voldemort, Harry has survived their encounters due to Voldemort's errors. Voldemort takes Lucius' wand. Lucius sure doesn't look well. Burbage pleads with Snape for her life to no avail. [13:18] <futureweasley> Back at Privet Drive, the Dursleys are finally convinced to go into hiding. Surprisingly, it's Dudley who recognizes Harry as being worthy. Petunia and Vernon never clue in. Harry found part of the two-way mirror Sirius had given him and thinks he sees an eye in it. Elphias Doge wrote a kind obituary about Dumbledore; Rita Skeeter wrote a tease to buy her biography of Dumbledore. [13:18] <futureweasley> Thanks to the Rooftop Garden and Dragon's Den for the introduction and following discussion questions. Turning now to our discussion for today. [13:18] <futureweasley> Jo describes the grounds of Malfoy Manor. What did you make of the presence of the yew trees, white peacocks, and brambles, rather than hedges? (Rooftop Garden) [13:19] <Puzzlepiece> when I read Yew trees, I thought of LV's wand [13:19] <Puzzlepiece> Yew is very powerful [13:19] <futureweasley> yes, me too Puzzle [13:19] <DumbleDebbie> well the white peacock seemed to be a pretentious flaunting of their wealth [13:19] <MrMcGonagall> Very deathly. [13:19] <futureweasley> Yew = death [13:19] <JaneMarple9> yew trees i assosiate with graveyards [13:19] <SoonerGryffindor> the imagery is very powerful in the opening chapter [13:19] <MrMcGonagall> It was almost like a haunted mansion. [13:19] <futureweasley> and that, to me, initally pointed to death for a Malfoy [13:19] <bemused> I think the brambles are the lane outside and the manor has a clipped hedge, doesn't it? [13:19] <Aislinn> it set the spooky mood right away [13:19] <DumbleDebbie> their grounds were also much more well kept than those across the lane which were overgrown [13:19] <fawkes28> i knew it definitely wasn't the durlsey's house during the first read laugh [13:19] *** ravenclawgirl34 has joined #lounge [13:20] <SoonerGryffindor> you have brambles and hedges, and the scene almost seems to be a black and white scene [13:20] <JaneMarple9> and also yew berries are poisonest [13:20] <DumbleDebbie> hi raven [13:20] <HeliumHead> i associate yew with bows [13:20] *** MFactor has joined #lounge [13:20] *** PrunellaGringepith has quit [Bye] [13:20] <JaneMarple9> it looked a very well kept home [13:20] <DumbleDebbie> hi MFactor [13:20] <blue4t_> the white peacocks are like colorless peacocks, so it represents lack of color, maybe? I don't know. [13:20] <MrMcGonagall> There's a pall of death about the place. [13:20] <Aislinn> that's an interesting observation sooner [13:20] <bemused> and the white peacock was a wonderful symbol of Lucius' vanity [13:20] <MFactor> Hi everyone [13:21] <Aislinn> yes it was bemused [13:21] <JaneMarple9> i thought Lucius was the peacock in animagus form first [13:21] <DumbleDebbie> the peacock seemed like something exotic, like a white tiger or something [13:21] <ravenclawgirl34> i thought of lv's wand when yew was mentioned [13:21] <JaneMarple9> did anyone else? [13:21] <futureweasley> oh, that's a good point bemused [13:21] <Puzzlepiece> exotic would fit the Malfoys [13:21] <futureweasley> What was the significance of the left-handed, straight arm salutes? (Rooftop Garden) [13:21] <JaneMarple9> peacocks, for me, represent splendor and riches [13:21] <Aislinn> ooh, that was so Nazi to me [13:21] <blue4t_> Oh, yes [13:21] <fawkes28> definitely, Nazi reference [13:21] <MrMcGonagall> The Dark Mark Death Eater Nazi salute. [13:21] <DumbleDebbie> that's where the dark mark lies, obviously [13:21] <Theoriser> yeah, definitely [13:21] <futureweasley> me too...actually very frightening [13:22] <HeliumHead> other than it was the wrong arm? [13:22] <DumbleDebbie> and yeah, there's a ton of Nazi WWII imagery in this book [13:22] <ascellaskat> i think the straight arm salute had to do with the dark mark o [13:22] <JaneMarple9> i never noticed the left armed salute myself but i go along with everyone else [13:22] <Aislinn> and it was a barrier, much like the one put up leading to the Astronomy tower, the night of Dd's death [13:22] <MrMcGonagall> We saw them use Dark Marks to get through a barrier in HBP, so no surprise there. [13:22] <SoonerGryffindor> I agree Aislinn [13:22] <Aislinn> can only get through with the mark [13:22] <DumbleDebbie> yep, Aislinn, same thing [13:22] <Theoriser> ooh good catch Aislinn, I forgot about that [13:22] <HeliumHead> yes, i think that the dark mark is the key [13:22] <Puzzlepiece> very clever [13:22] <JaneMarple9> it does seem similar to the Nazi salute etc [13:23] <Aislinn> it was clear, later on, when the Trio were brought to the house, and couldn't get through the gate [13:23] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, because later on Greyback and the Snatchers can't get through. [13:23] <Aislinn> snap! [13:23] <SoonerGryffindor> but then I wonder how Greyback got on the astronomy tower [13:23] <futureweasley> they wear those dark marks as a badge of honor...I think that showing them is something that needs to happen in a salute like that [13:23] <bemused> perhaps he was with someone, Sooner [13:23] <futureweasley> How did Jo use lighting as a tool in this chapter? (Rooftop Garden) [13:23] <DumbleDebbie> didn't they put it up behind them in the tower Sooner? and then Snape ran thru [13:23] <Aislinn> oh, that's a great question sooner - maybe by holding onto one of the others [13:24] <Aislinn> or they put the barrier up behind them [13:24] <SoonerGryffindor> right [13:24] <DumbleDebbie> lol Aislinn [13:24] <SoonerGryffindor> maybe they did that [13:24] <SoonerGryffindor> I love how she used the lighting [13:24] <MrMcGonagall> It is so dark and creepy. I always see a sort of greenish hue to things in this chapter as well. [13:24] <SoonerGryffindor> to me, this felt like watching an old black and white movie [13:24] <ascellaskat> the lighting set the mood and tone [13:24] <Aislinn> dramatic effect - the tone was set so effectively here [13:24] <Puzzlepiece> agreed Sooner [13:24] <fawkes28> it definitely set the mood not only of the chapter but of the book as a whole [13:24] * SoonerGryffindor hopes WB does that effect [13:24] <futureweasley> yes, the lighting set a definite tone...and the fact that you can't see people's faces and stuff [13:24] <JaneMarple9> it sets the tone for the whole book [13:24] <bemused> very sinister [13:25] <MrMcGonagall> That dining room... [13:25] * MrMcGonagall shivers [13:25] <DumbleDebbie> there's a lot of very cool lighting in this book [13:25] <Aislinn> I listened to Jo read the chapter that night while waiting to go get my book, and listening to her read this bit just gave me the chills. [13:25] <JaneMarple9> it tells you immediately that there isn't go to be many happy times in the book [13:25] <fawkes28> me too [13:25] <JaneMarple9> oooo me too Ainslinn [13:25] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, it was good to be so dark right off the bat [13:25] <SoonerGryffindor> me too, and it gave me something to think about for several hours [13:26] <JaneMarple9> i don't know how i slept after listening to jo reading that first chapter [13:26] <MrMcGonagall> The atmosphere is oppressive even for the Death Eaters. [13:26] <blue4t_> yes [13:26] <JaneMarple9> it gave us so many questions! [13:26] <DumbleDebbie> I wasn't home from work yet when she did the reading. Plus I wanted to wait and just read the book myself [13:26] <Aislinn> they didn't seem too comfortable [13:26] <futureweasley> seriously...the first chapter was very disturbing in many, many ways [13:26] <Aislinn> but I don't imagine one relaxes around the Dark Lord [13:26] <DumbleDebbie> yes, fw, for sure [13:26] <futureweasley> Jo set the story up that was to follow in a great way [13:26] <DumbleDebbie> and I kept wondering who was hanging there [13:27] <futureweasley> How does the set up, the mood, the tension of the meeting set up the rest of the book? Were you reminded of any other stories, movies, or real life events? (Rooftop Garden) [13:27] <MrMcGonagall> Yikes! Charity Burbage as a prop. [13:27] <SoonerGryffindor> I was thinking it was Trelawney [13:27] <DumbleDebbie> me too Sooner [13:27] <JaneMarple9> lucius certainly did not seem comfortable having voldie in the house [13:27] *** ravenclawgirl34 has quit [Ping timeout] [13:27] <Puzzlepiece> I was soo happy we finally found out the final name of the final taecher [13:27] <SoonerGryffindor> it totally sets up the Malfoy's story [13:27] <bemused> it seemed like a deliberate insult to Lucius - furniture pushed aside and so on [13:27] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, Narcissa really showed who wears the pants in that family when the chips were down [13:27] <JaneMarple9> i had a idea it was someone else "cough* a wandmaker *cough* [13:27] <SoonerGryffindor> it gives us a hint there is a prisoner, and shows us where all of the "baddies" are [13:28] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [13:28] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, I ran through several thoughs Jane. Narcissa, Olivander, Trelawney... [13:28] <Aislinn> that was my thought as well, Jane [13:28] <DumbleDebbie> hey cp! [13:28] <JaneMarple9> Narcissa certainly is in charge of the Malfoy household [13:28] <Aislinn> hi cloudpic [13:28] <blue4t_> It shows that Voldemort has moved up. He's actually taken control of someone's house. [13:28] <JaneMarple9> (((Cloud))) [13:28] <fawkes28> hey cloudpic [13:28] <SoonerGryffindor> I completely fell in love with the Malfoy family in this chapter. that was somethiing I was not expecting [13:28] *** cloudpic has quit [Bye] [13:28] <futureweasley> me too, Sooner [13:29] <MrMcGonagall> All of the info we get in this chapter points to just how much LV has been able to achieve since DD's downfall. [13:29] <bemused> Not sure about 'in love' sooner - but I certainly saw them in a new light [13:29] <fawkes28> i think i just knew at this point that we were in for a lot of deaths [13:29] <DumbleDebbie> as nasty as they are, they stuck together, which I'll give them credit for [13:29] <JaneMarple9> yes fawkes [13:29] <Theoriser> yeah, we got to see a different side to them [13:29] <SoonerGryffindor> we see narcissa in a totally different light [13:29] <JaneMarple9> and deathly hallows does not bode well laugh [13:30] <DumbleDebbie> which we needed to see in her to set up her actions in the end [13:30] <Aislinn> I had seen her in that light for a while sooner [13:30] <JaneMarple9> you get a different perspective of narcissa [13:30] <SoonerGryffindor> we see an instance of a DE family where they do NOT put Voldemort first. I love getting to see the other side love as well [13:30] <MrMcGonagall> There's a lot of tension in that house. [13:30] <DumbleDebbie> she was behaving that way in HBP too [13:30] <futureweasley> Narcissa definitely had her own thing going on in this book [13:31] <DumbleDebbie> lol Mr M ya think? [13:31] <futureweasley> a completely separate agenda from everyone else. Sound like someone else? [13:31] <Aislinn> even back in GoF, when Draco said Narcissa didn't want him to go off to Durmstrang, I think we had hints of how much she loved her son [13:31] <ascellaskat> i don't think Narcissa was ever a true LV follower so after he put her son in danger in HBP there was no way she could have true allegiance to him [13:31] <futureweasley> What do you think about Draco's behavior? Is he regretting becoming a DE? Do you think his ideas of what Voldemort stood for and what being a DE would be measured up for him? Why? (Rooftop Garden [13:31] <DumbleDebbie> good point Aislinn [13:31] <Aislinn> oh, interesting, future [13:31] <JaneMarple9> yes he is [13:31] <Puzzlepiece> interesting how she isnt branded. she is never actually a death eater [13:31] <bemused> I loved the subtle ways in which she was managing her men [13:31] <JaneMarple9> he knows he is in too deep [13:31] <futureweasley> that rocked, Bemused [13:31] <blue4t_> I think Draco does regret it. [13:31] <Aislinn> I think he is really scared to be running with the big dogs [13:32] <SoonerGryffindor> I love how Draco was so cowed in this scene. This told me that that he truly was regretting his choices [13:32] <futureweasley> Narcissa...wears the pants in the family [13:32] <MrMcGonagall> Me too, Aislinn. [13:32] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, he's trapped and not too happy about it from the look of things [13:32] <JaneMarple9> he doesn't want to be in the death eater army [13:32] <blue4t_> I think the only reason Draco became a DE is because of his parents. IMO, he's not strong enough to be a DE. [13:32] *** tinkertime has joined #lounge [13:32] <SoonerGryffindor> it sets up how he will act later in the book [13:32] *** Eleanora has joined #lounge [13:32] <Aislinn> coward that he is, he didn't count on having to act [13:32] <ascellaskat> i think the reality of what being a DE meant was too much fror Draco [13:32] <DumbleDebbie> hi tinker, Elanora [13:32] <futureweasley> I don't think Draco realizes that he actually has bravery [13:32] <Eleanora> Hello al;! [13:32] <Eleanora> all* [13:32] <bemused> I don't think Draco can handle the horror of it - but he and his father aren't actually remorseful - they never waste a chance to get back in LV's good books [13:32] <tinkertime> hullo all! [13:32] <SoonerGryffindor> did he have any future? [13:33] <futureweasley> he doesn't know how to use that particular virtue [13:33] <futureweasley> I think so... [13:33] <Eleanora> hi tinker [13:33] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think he really has bravery. But self-interest is a powerful motivator for him. [13:33] <DumbleDebbie> he refused to ID Harry [13:33] <Aislinn> I agree bemused. [13:33] <DumbleDebbie> but that's later on [13:33] <futureweasley> yes Debbie...I agree...that's the main selling point [13:33] <Aislinn> and then shouted to the DE's that he was on their side after going after Harry in the RoR, debbie [13:33] <MrMcGonagall> I wonder if comparisons can be made between Draco and Big D. [13:33] <Eleanora> so do you think he wasnt fully liking the dark side [13:34] <DumbleDebbie> so it's a transient bravery ;) [13:34] <blue4t_> The only thing Draco knows is the dark side. [13:34] <fawkes28> Draco definitely stuck out like a sore thumb - it actually made me think that is probably what regulus was going through [13:34] <SoonerGryffindor> Mr M, you are reading my mind. I was just thinking about Draco and Dudders [13:34] <blue4t_> It's only natural that he follows that path. [13:34] <DumbleDebbie> he is, after all, still a Slytherin [13:34] <HeliumHead> I don't think that they liked being at the bottom of the heap [13:34] <tinkertime> good point Mr McG - there are some similarities [13:34] <bemused> I think Regulus was a better man than Draco, fawkes [13:34] <DumbleDebbie> they're both bullies Mr M, who've had the tables turned on them [13:34] <fawkes28> yes, he was [13:34] <blue4t_> But, Draco being a DE wasn't his decision. [13:34] <Aislinn> Dudders seemed to be genuinely growing, while Draco's situation had him in survival mode, in my opinion [13:34] <HeliumHead> agreed bemused [13:34] <Puzzlepiece> agreed Aislinn [13:35] <MrMcGonagall> Draco was pretty darn proud of himself in the beginning of HBP. [13:35] <Eleanora> yeah dudley and draco loved to act the hard man in front of peers [13:35] <futureweasley> Given Voldemort's anger with Lucius dating back the Ministry fiasco in OOTP, and Voldemort's determination to punish Lucius for his failure there, was there anything Draco could have done to avoid becoming a DE? (Rooftop Garden) [13:35] <SoonerGryffindor> not really [13:35] <HeliumHead> he was unique in hbp [13:35] <SoonerGryffindor> I think he was in a corner [13:35] <Aislinn> I don't think so [13:35] *** Puzzlepiece has quit [Bye] [13:35] <blue4t_> Honestly, I don't think so. [13:35] <DumbleDebbie> run to Australia? [13:35] <bemused> he could have gone to Dumbledore [13:35] <ascellaskat> i think Draco did what he felt needed to be done to repair the damage in a way [13:35] <Aislinn> yes, bemused, if he had acted on the Tower, things may have turned out very differently [13:35] <Eleanora> he's very afraid of voldermorts power [13:36] <fawkes28> i think he was stuck [13:36] <MrMcGonagall> I think Draco missed his chance at escaping that fate when he turned down DD's offer on the Tower. [13:36] <DumbleDebbie> yes Mr M, that was key [13:36] <fawkes28> exactly Mr. M [13:36] <HeliumHead> no, and i suspect that LV flattered Draco at first [13:36] <futureweasley> he could have died...there's a certain valor in that [13:36] <Eleanora> he thought he was in too deep at that point in the tower [13:36] <fawkes28> and he didn't - that could have been a turning point for the Slytherin House [13:36] <MrMcGonagall> I think draco was reliving that conversation on the Tower for many months after the event. [13:36] *** PrunellaGringepith has joined #lounge [13:36] <Eleanora> that accepting help or anything was far too late for him at the time [13:36] <tinkertime> The whole Malfoy family seems to be more concerned with their own purity, rather than Voldy's goals - I think they got in too deep to extract themselves and then realized they needed to protect each other - no one else would [13:36] *** Evreka has joined #lounge [13:36] <DumbleDebbie> hi prunella [13:36] <DumbleDebbie> hi Ev! smile [13:36] <MrMcGonagall> Draco regretted a choice. [13:36] <SoonerGryffindor> the old phrase is true.... the higher you are, the harder you fall [13:36] <ascellaskat> maybe he was thinking of what would happen to his family if he turned on Voldemort [13:37] <fawkes28> it really wasnt too late - Draco made a choice that day [13:37] <bemused> maybe, Eleonora, but he could have gone to DD at any time in the school year [13:37] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [13:37] <SoonerGryffindor> the Malfoys fell a long way [13:37] <DumbleDebbie> wb cp [13:37] <blue4t_> Draco was raised to not like Dumbledore. [13:37] *** Shard has joined #lounge [13:37] <Eleanora> we know what he's like, he doesnt want to look the coward [13:37] <DumbleDebbie> "Oh how the mighty have fallen" [13:37] * cloudpic thanks... sorry to pop [13:37] <DumbleDebbie> hi shard [13:37] <Evreka> Hi [13:37] <Shard> Hi everyone [13:37] <blue4t_> So, even if he saw himself in a bad place with Voldemort he might not think to turn to Dumbledore. [13:37] <cloudpic> Hi, Shard [13:37] <blue4t_> Even after Dumbledore offers it to him. [13:37] <Evreka> Took some time to find the chat winsdow! [13:38] <futureweasley> I think that Draco realized that he could think independently...that knowledge dawned on him a bit late, though [13:38] <DumbleDebbie> glad you found it Evreka [13:38] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, Draco found himself hemmed in by his past choices. [13:38] <futureweasley> What did you make of the interactions among the Malfoy family? Did you predict anything about their role in the rest of the book from this chapter? (Rooftop Garden) [13:38] <Shard> I was kinda dissapointed with Draco's handling of how to deal with his desire to no longer be a DE [13:38] <DumbleDebbie> they were all in self-preservation mode [13:38] <Evreka> Definitely not [13:38] <cloudpic> I was rather taken aback at Narcissa's easy mastery of her men. [13:38] <tinkertime> Malfoys protect other Malfoys - they wouldn't look for help outside the family - IMO - that's why Narcissa's turning to Snape for help was such a shocker [13:38] <Shard> I pretty much figured that the Malfoys were on their way to betraying the LV [13:39] <Eleanora> it was quite brave of narcissa to lie to voldie about harry in the forest [13:39] <DumbleDebbie> I was impressed by that cp LOL [13:39] <SoonerGryffindor> I have to admit that I completely underestimated narcissa. I thought all along that she was a trophy pureblood wife. Honestly, she was amazing [13:39] <Shard> I loved that Narcissa wasnt the beaten wife so many thought she was [13:39] <blue4t_> I agree, Sooner. [13:39] <Aislinn> A quick note: I think it's great to see old and new friends, but let's keep the greetings and departure messages to a minimum, as they tend to really break the flow of the conversation. Thanks for your help with this! [13:39] <Shard> tongue [13:39] <JaneMarple9> i was surprised how much lucius stayed in the background [13:39] <Eleanora> all she cared about at that point was draco right? So she completely changes towards voldermort [13:39] <Evreka> but I kind of liked to see them demoted - it was a long way from the good days for Lucius [13:39] <MrMcGonagall> Their desperation hinted that they were going to do something to undermine Voldemort. [13:39] <Eleanora> she doesnt care anymore if he succeeded in his plans [13:39] <futureweasley> I think that the Malfoys are actually a cohesive family unit [13:39] <bemused> it was obvious that what mattered most to them - specially Narcissa - was themselves as a family, not LV [13:39] <Theoriser> yes jane, it seemed to be more focused on narcissa instead of lucius [13:39] <fawkes28> i was surprised by how subdued they were although they did deserve it [13:39] <cloudpic> I was in the same place, Sooner, thinking she was just a bauble... but especially in chapter 1... was amazed [13:39] <futureweasley> there is actually love there...love that I didn't expect to find [13:39] <MrMcGonagall> I think the Malfoys are still bad 'uns, though. It's all about self-preservation. [13:39] <Shard> I think Narc has always cared for her family probably the number one reason she didn't become a DE [13:40] <JaneMarple9> and it was good to see that narcissa was the leader of the family [13:40] <Shard> I was hoping to see the love nad I did [13:40] <Shard> I cheered [13:40] <tinkertime> agree w/ future - disfunctional - but a solid family none-the-less [13:40] <Shard> Yaaaa the Malfoy's love each other!! [13:40] <bemused> Yes, Mr M - agree with you there [13:40] <Shard> Lucius doesn't beat ANYONE! lol [13:40] <Evreka> true MrMcg [13:40] <tinkertime> *dysfuntional [13:40] <Shard> Except Dobby sad [13:40] <PrunellaGringepith> it makes you think that narcissa was probably the sensible one in the family all along [13:40] <MrMcGonagall> We've had an interesting conversation in the Rooftop Garden about the fact that LV may not have wanted mothers as DEs. [13:40] <Shard> But Mr. M at least they know Love [13:40] <cloudpic> I wondered how much she had steered things in the past... like Draco's attending Hogwarts... after seeing her keeping things together now. [13:40] <Aislinn> I think that the Malfoys were made VERY aware of the fact that they were alive only at Voldy's sufferance, and that he could withdraw it at any time. [13:41] <cloudpic> Lucius was all flash and arrogance. [13:41] <Aislinn> Not exactly a nice houseguest to entertain. [13:41] <bemused> True Aislinn [13:41] <SoonerGryffindor> the way that Narcissa touched Lucius hand and shook her head to draco was great. She was in control of the family [13:41] <Aislinn> protecting them. [13:41] <tinkertime> Really Aislinn - those DE dinner parties suck! [13:41] <cloudpic> Dreadful to feel completely at someone's mercy in your own haven. [13:41] <Eleanora> Yeah I wonder if Lucius even realised what he was getting his son into, in his early DE days [13:41] <JaneMarple9> yes narcissa was definately in control [13:41] <ascellaskat> i loved that she demonstrated that strength and kept her family together through it all [13:41] <fawkes28> yes, she proved herself as a strong woman who was just looking for her family to survive this ordeal [13:41] <Aislinn> I don't think he thought beyond his own lust for power, eleanora. [13:42] <SoonerGryffindor> I also noticed that she never made eye contact with LV. I think she was trying her best not be legilimized [13:42] <cloudpic> LOL tinkertime.... it was like sitting at a particularly nasty business dinner...times 100 [13:42] <HeliumHead> lucius was in azkaban at the time [13:42] <Shard> I really love that Jo shows that Mothers can be as strong as any other type of woman [13:42] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, that was obvious Sooner [13:42] <MrMcGonagall> The snake was the only one who got any food. [13:42] <PrunellaGringepith> stronger [13:42] <Shard> True [13:42] <SoonerGryffindor> meanwhile Bella was next to her slobbering like a faithful hound [13:42] *** vertigo_on_high has joined #lounge [13:42] <Aislinn> that was pathetic,wasn't it? [13:42] <fawkes28> yes, shard - there are such strong female characters in the series [13:42] <Eleanora> he cares about that snake more than any other and rewards it the most [13:42] <JaneMarple9> ooo bella was horrible [13:42] <SoonerGryffindor> lol Mr M [13:42] <Shard> Yeah if anyone is obessed it's Bella [13:42] <bemused> I want to know what Mr Bella thinks of it [13:43] <tinkertime> yes, sooner - the contrasts between Bella and Narcissa are great [13:43] <Eleanora> defintiely [13:43] <Shard> Bella is sick in the head [13:43] <blue4t_> that's an understatement, Shard. [13:43] <bemused> he doesn't get a look in [13:43] <ascellaskat> bella is so pathetic [13:43] <Shard> But then she's not a mother [13:43] <Shard> Thank god [13:43] <SoonerGryffindor> lol Shard [13:43] <Eleanora> hehe [13:43] <cloudpic> ewwwww Mr. McG. yeah... I keep forgetting Bella's claim to be "honored" to entertain LV in their house... but it wasn't hers [13:43] <futureweasley> What can you say about the particular way Jo describes Charity's fall? (Rooftop Garden) [13:43] <JaneMarple9> we don't hear much about mr lestrange do we? [13:43] <Aislinn> oh, it was so awful [13:43] <bemused> chilling [13:43] <JaneMarple9> disgusting [13:43] <Eleanora> no not alot [13:43] <vertigo_on_high> he died in askaban didnt he [13:43] <futureweasley> "dinner" [13:43] <SoonerGryffindor> poor Charity [13:43] <Eleanora> but he can't be a very happy man [13:43] <futureweasley> ewwww [13:43] <JaneMarple9> it esd horrible! [13:43] <Shard> Voldemort is just.... WRONG [13:43] <fawkes28> not the best moment of the series by far [13:43] <DumbleDebbie> I was more intrigued with her name than her fall [13:43] <SoonerGryffindor> snake food... what a horrible death [13:43] <Shard> Charity Poor teacher [13:44] <Shard> We never knew yee [13:44] <JaneMarple9> no vertigo, that was her brother in law [13:44] <tinkertime> that was so strong, emotionally - right from the start you knew the whole book would be intense [13:44] <Shard> Even though we should have [13:44] <MrMcGonagall> The thundering crash as her lifeless body hits the table. [13:44] <cloudpic> That strange magical suspension... why did she spin? Was it deliberate? And was she conscious when she didn't talk... just unable to? [13:44] <JaneMarple9> Dinner Nagini [13:44] <vertigo_on_high> oh biggrin thanks jane [13:44] <Evreka> What IS Rooftop Garden??? [13:44] <futureweasley> it's one of the Reading Groups [13:44] <cloudpic> Like Hedwig [13:44] <futureweasley> they wrote the questions [13:44] <Aislinn> it was incredibly chilling. [13:44] <Shard> Mr. Mg I think that symoblises the coming storm [13:44] <SoonerGryffindor> it is interesting that she rotated exactly 3 tiimes [13:44] <Evreka> oh [13:44] <fawkes28> i think unable too, cloudpic [13:44] <Shard> ith Charity's death there is room for the carrows at Hogwartts [13:44] <JaneMarple9> I think that was the worst line in the chapter...it is frightening [13:44] <Eleanora> already you feel the darkness of the book [13:44] <Eleanora> and it gets more so [13:44] <vertigo_on_high> did you hear jo read that part [13:45] <vertigo_on_high> she did a good job [13:45] <fawkes28> it was also odd that no one would look at her but draco [13:45] <cloudpic> Her ironic name difficult too... and her defence of Muggles. [13:45] <Shard> A sense of forbodeing and that things are going to get really bad [13:45] <JaneMarple9> i wonder if hermione knew charity - she did muggle studies in book 3 [13:45] <cloudpic> Oh... I'd loved to have heard that! [13:45] <vertigo_on_high> hermione knew every teacher [13:45] <ascellaskat> i couldn't get over how Charity was pleading snape [13:45] <Aislinn> she did know her jane [13:45] <cloudpic> I'd forgotten that Jane... [13:45] <Eleanora> and the way snape was sitting there [13:45] *** jaimedanser has joined #lounge [13:45] <Aislinn> that made me ill ascellaskat [13:45] <jaimedanser> Hi [13:45] <DumbleDebbie> LOL, yeah pleading with Snape, definitely barking up the wrong tree there [13:45] <jaimedanser> =D [13:45] <Shard> What could Snape do? [13:45] <Eleanora> but at that time there was nothing more he could do, one little gesture and he'll be in the deep end [13:45] <Shard> Snape couldn't blow his cover \ [13:45] <jaimedanser> what exactly are we talking about??? [13:45] <Evreka> What a way to go, knowing Snape was there doing nothing sad [13:46] <vertigo_on_high> according to DD he saw alot of people die [13:46] <cloudpic> Those appeals she made to Snape echoed Dumbledore... and he was no more able to do what he really wanted either time. [13:46] <Shard> Yeah that was horrible [13:46] <JaneMarple9> yep, poor charity did the wrong thing pleading to snape [13:46] <Aislinn> We're discussing the first chapter of the book, jaimedanser [13:46] <Shard> Though Snape was also able to save ppl [13:46] <Shard> JKust not everyone [13:46] <Aislinn> right now, Charity's death [13:46] <jaimedanser> Ah, okay. biggrin Thanks Aislinn [13:46] <Shard> theres no way he could save Charity [13:46] <ascellaskat> at this point we just don't know if Snape would have done something if he could have [13:46] <Shard> Not with LV there and a room FULL of DE's [13:46] <vertigo_on_high> yeah shard is right [13:46] <bemused> that must have been awful for him, to hear those words again [13:46] <jaimedanser> no, he couldn't have saved Charity [13:46] <vertigo_on_high> i thought it was McGon. at first [13:46] <Evreka> No but for HER to see him just sit there [13:46] <bemused> and not be able to react [13:46] <jaimedanser> that would have blown his cover so much more than anthing else [13:47] <SoonerGryffindor> he had to do what he had to do [13:47] <Shard> and not blow his cover, he needed to become the Headmaster so he could keep communicating with the Paiting [13:47] <Evreka> is as bad anyway [13:47] <MrMcGonagall> Perish the thought, vertigo! [13:47] <Shard> Agreed Everka [13:47] <vertigo_on_high> sorry biggrin [13:47] <futureweasley> How did you feel about the book starting with Snape instead of Harry? (Rooftop Garden) [13:47] <cloudpic> Charity comes crashing because the Dark Lord wishes to show his disdain for Muggle-lovers. [13:47] <SoonerGryffindor> it reminded me of HBP [13:47] <cloudpic> Again, I was astonished! [13:47] <Shard> FW: We should have known because of HBP [13:47] <vertigo_on_high> i liked 4 and 6's opening that way so i liked it [13:47] <MrMcGonagall> Mmm, seemed an appropriate start to me. [13:47] <Aislinn> yes, cloudpic, exactly [13:47] <jaimedanser> I rather liked the book starting with Snape [13:47] <fawkes28> confirms that snape had a huge role to play still [13:47] <JaneMarple9> it reflected book 6 and book 4 [13:47] <jaimedanser> It seemed appropriate [13:47] <bemused> it took us atraight into the story and created a mood [13:47] <ascellaskat> I loved that [13:47] <bemused> *straight [13:47] <tinkertime> It was interesting how it started w/ Snape & ended w/ Snape - but not much in between [13:47] <jaimedanser> yep, fawks, it did [13:47] <fawkes28> i predicted it wouldnt start with Harry [13:47] <SoonerGryffindor> it was great because it really set up the scene and the players [13:47] <Aislinn> it reinforced the view we had of him at the end of HBP [13:47] <Shard> Yes it was a good start to set the mood [13:47] <Theoriser> it was like it followed straight on from half-blood prince [13:47] <cloudpic> Answered two questions straightaway: draco and snape [13:47] <Aislinn> let us know it was not a trick [13:47] <PrunellaGringepith> i liked it, i think everyone was dying to know about Snape and what he was up to [13:48] <jaimedanser> Theoriser-Yep biggrin [13:48] <futureweasley> too true, Shard...too true [13:48] <Shard> I wonder if it will make it to the movie, it did set a dark tone to everything [13:48] <JaneMarple9> because that is how book 6 began with the muggle prime minister and with frank bryce in book 4 [13:48] <MrMcGonagall> This chapter set up the first part of the book so thoroughly and set the tone so effectively that I couldn't imagine it any other way. [13:48] <fawkes28> i think we were all curious to know how Voldemort handled Snape after he killed Dd [13:48] <HeliumHead> it was one of the few moment that we actually got to see Snape alive [13:48] <blue4t_> It helps set up the idea that maybe Snape is bad. [13:48] *** ravenclawgirl34 has joined #lounge [13:48] <tinkertime> agree Mr McG [13:48] <vertigo_on_high> yes blue it does [13:48] <JaneMarple9> it began immediately, showing how powerful voldie had become [13:48] <Shard> Yes Snape was now his right hand man [13:48] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, instead of LV being upset with Snape, he sets him in a position of honor at his right hand [13:48] <MFactor> It also carried on the question of Snape's loyalty [13:48] <Aislinn> even the chapter title [13:48] <blue4t_> I do think we are supposed to think that throughout the book, no matter what kind of theorizing we've done. [13:48] <jaimedanser> It was a good way to make everyone reconsider thier Snape theories [13:48] <jaimedanser> *their [13:48] <fawkes28> exactly - Mr. M - it couldnt start out quietly at Privet Drive because it wasn't going to be a nice and quiet story [13:48] <JaneMarple9> we all wanted to know what snape had done after "killing" dumbledore [13:49] <cloudpic> Yes, jaimedanser, it set my mind whirling. [13:49] <tinkertime> true - I was really questioning my "Snape is good" stance at that point! [13:49] <JaneMarple9> it set the tone of the book [13:49] <Shard> And now we know what \ [13:49] <PrunellaGringepith> it certainly had me second guessing myself [13:49] <Eleanora> indeed [13:49] <jaimedanser> same here, cloudpic [13:49] <fawkes28> yes, jaime - i thnk we all were trying to figure out his loyal by examining his every move [13:49] <MrMcGonagall> We needed to have some sense of what LV was planning and how close he was to achieving some of his aims. [13:49] *** ravenclawgirl34_ has joined #lounge [13:49] <JaneMarple9> i was still unsure on snape [13:49] <HeliumHead> I wondered if Snape wasn't given that position because LV didn't entirely trust him [13:49] <Theoriser> yeah, it made snape even more ambiguous [13:49] <MrMcGonagall> We needed some background as to the attack on Privet Drive. [13:49] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M - he was such a little part of the previous books, we needed more of a setup of his power and control. [13:49] <cloudpic> Didn't JKR say she thought of these last two books as one... so this was a Snape-driven set and we needed that reminder [13:50] <Eleanora> he himself said Harry got away many times because of where he had failed, so we knew it was gonna be really dark [13:50] <tinkertime> once again Jo seeded the story with clues - but we couldn't decipher them until later in the book [13:50] <DumbleDebbie> interesting helium, keep him close to watch him [13:50] <HeliumHead> exactly [13:50] <fawkes28> I think it is important for Jo to set up the first chapter outside of Harry's eyes because we are very limited from that point of view [13:50] *** ProngsPatronus has joined #lounge [13:50] <futureweasley> What did you decide about Snape's loyalties after reading this first chapter? [13:50] <cloudpic> Yeah... Eleanora! I found LV's admission of responsibility especially chilling... and it explained why he was turning to Snape [13:50] <SoonerGryffindor> I never doubted for one second. In fact, the first chapter only reinforced my POV that Snape was loyal to Harry's success [13:50] <jaimedanser> fawkes--yes, it was [13:50] <bemused> Still hopeful! [13:50] <vertigo_on_high> future i still thought that he was good [13:50] <Shard> Undecided but still thinking he was DD's man [13:51] <blue4t_> I didn't know what to think about Snape. [13:51] <HeliumHead> and there is the moment of legilimens/occlumens betwen them [13:51] <cloudpic> At that point I was still suspending my judgment. [13:51] <JaneMarple9> i was still saying snape is voldies man [13:51] <fawkes28> that he was still out for himself, which he was anyway [13:51] <JaneMarple9> or he was snapes man [13:51] <cloudpic> But it was hard... he seemed so in favor! [13:51] <bemused> no he wasn't, fawkes! [13:51] <blue4t_> He was. [13:51] <Theoriser> I thought that I was right, that he was evil [13:51] <SoonerGryffindor> nah, I knew then that we would find out for sure he was loyal [13:51] <jaimedanser> bemused--yes, he pretty much was [13:51] <Aislinn> I doubt people could be swayed, but I bet some were feeling a bit less sure of themselves [13:51] <cloudpic> No, he wasn't out for himself. Not ever. [13:51] <MrMcGonagall> I was sure he was playing the part of a faithful DE for the time. I didn't expect to see a change in his actions until the end of DH. [13:51] <Eleanora> I was thinking : ah, this is the proof that he really isn't good at all [13:51] <futureweasley> I was still on the fence...I couldn't believe he just let that teacher die like that...but I also realized he was in no position to do anything about it [13:51] <bemused> agree, cloudpic [13:51] <tinkertime> i still tought DD's man - but it did cause a bit of doubt to creep in smile [13:51] *** Snitch2006 has joined #lounge [13:52] <JaneMarple9> i was more than probably still on that very uncomfortable fence! [13:52] <cloudpic> LOL... we must agree to disagree at this point (Chapters 1-3)! [13:52] <tinkertime> *htought [13:52] <Aislinn> I don't agree, cloudpic, but that is not the topic today. [13:52] <blue4t_> Snape was out for himself. The only reason he was on Dumbledore's side was because the girl he'd loved had died at the hands of Voldemort. [13:52] <Shard> lol [13:52] <jaimedanser> Actually, Snape was out for himself. Himself and Lily [13:52] <SoonerGryffindor> no [13:52] <Evreka> I still wonder how he brought about Emmeline Vances death in HBP [13:52] <vertigo_on_high> thats true [13:52] <DumbleDebbie> I thought as I had before. he was working on the right side, but was still a git [13:52] <Shard> Oh dear [13:52] <jaimedanser> He only helped Dumbledore so he could save Lily [13:52] <SoonerGryffindor> being out for yourself means that you have the potential to switch sides [13:52] *** andythehouseelf has joined #lounge [13:52] <Shard> I thought maybe he helped Vance fake her death [13:52] <DumbleDebbie> and selfish [13:52] <jaimedanser> and then he only helped Harry in Lily's memory [13:52] <Evreka> right jaime [13:52] <SoonerGryffindor> there was never an optino of snape switching sides [13:52] <Shard> But I gots no proof [13:52] <vertigo_on_high> Like Jo said, Snape is not a hero in her eyes [13:52] <cloudpic> When he didn't acknowledge Draco's presence I was a bit confused. [13:52] <futureweasley> lol, I agree with Sooner...Snape did have an agenda, but it was not completely selfish [13:52] *** ravenclawgirl34 has quit [Bye] [13:52] <vertigo_on_high> he is in mine but... [13:52] <Eleanora> Yeah all of Harry's protection from Snape is because of his mother [13:52] <jaimedanser> Nah, Snape isn't a hero [13:52] <SoonerGryffindor> whcih means that overall, he was loyal to DD [13:52] <Aislinn> he was on his own side [13:52] <jaimedanser> Brave, YES, but no hero [13:53] <Eleanora> he's probably only half as rude to him because his dad is James [13:53] <SoonerGryffindor> being on your own side means you could switch [13:53] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape was never going to switch [13:53] <bemused> I don't think it was selfish at all - there was nothing in it for him [13:53] <Aislinn> out for yourself means you are doing something for your own, selfish desires [13:53] <Evreka> He was loyal to his love to Lily is all [13:53] <Aislinn> Not for a greater cause [13:53] <fawkes28> ok so back to This chapter - i think Jo did an excellent job of keeping his loyalty ambiguous [13:53] <SoonerGryffindor> I disagree [13:53] *** andythehouseelf has quit [Bye] [13:53] <jaimedanser> Aislinn--yes, and that's basically what Snape was doing [13:53] <blue4t_> Yes, she did, fawkes. [13:53] <bemused> me too, Sooner [13:53] <Shard> That I agree with Fawkes [13:53] <vertigo_on_high> yes fawkes [13:53] <Aislinn> exactly jaimedanser [13:53] <ProngsPatronus> there was only one side for Snape [13:53] <tinkertime> redemption - it doesn't really matter for whom he did it [13:53] <PrunellaGringepith> definitely fawkes [13:53] <ProngsPatronus> and that was Lily's side [13:53] *** ravenclawgirl34_ has quit [Bye] [13:53] <Snitch2006> yes, i was shocked with the first chapter. [13:53] <futureweasley> Charity begged Snape for her life. Why did Jo make this so similar to the way Dumbledore begged Snape at the end of HBP? (Rooftop Garden) [13:53] <Evreka> if that was served by dumbledore he went to dumbledore but if he could have served it better some other wa he'd turned around [13:53] <cloudpic> I like that tinkertime [13:54] <bemused> Lily and Harry's side, and DD's [13:54] <ProngsPatronus> not Dumbledore's, not Voldemort's [13:54] <Aislinn> nononono [13:54] <Shard> To mirror it, DD pleading for one thing and Charity for another [13:54] <Aislinn> he could care less about harry [13:54] <vertigo_on_high> did you feel anything when charity died cause i didnt [13:54] <JaneMarple9> because charity hoped snape could save her [13:54] <jaimedanser> Hmm...that's a good question [13:54] <jaimedanser> I'm not so sure [13:54] <tinkertime> the payoff on that is at the end of the book - when we realize the pain tese events caused Snape [13:54] <cloudpic> I think Jo wanted us to see just how difficult LV was making it for Snape... to continue as his "right hand man" [13:54] <bemused> To give a clue that the situations were different, I think - she WAs pleading for life, DD wasn't [13:54] <JaneMarple9> it did mirror dumbledore yes [13:54] *** NimbusFlyer has joined #lounge [13:54] <fawkes28> ah, it made us all try to prove our side of the story as we read the book [13:54] <Eleanora> The ones who begged Snape, they know that deep inside he was a good man, not a killer but Snape just couldn't raise suspicions [13:54] <SoonerGryffindor> I think taht this scene was to show us what somebody who was really begging for their life sounded like and to show us that DD was not begging for his life at the end of HBP [13:54] <tinkertime> agree cloudpic [13:54] <Snitch2006> the image of Charity hanging over the table was creepy [13:54] <fawkes28> and i think she wanted to toy with us too [13:55] <MrMcGonagall> The pleas are motivated by desperation. [13:55] <fawkes28> !op NimbusFlyer [13:55] *** mode/#lounge [+o NimbusFlyer] by Snuffles [13:55] <cloudpic> Oh! Sooner! I hadn't thought of that. [13:55] <tinkertime> yes fawkes! [13:55] <blue4t_> Definitely, fawkes. [13:55] <vertigo_on_high> she could have just been setting up malfoy manor for the later chapter [13:55] <PrunellaGringepith> it emphasised the similaritlies and differences between the deaths [13:55] <Evreka> fawkes could you possibly change color? I can hardly read your lines, they are sooo bright? [13:55] <SoonerGryffindor> I can see fawkes just fine. It is the color she always uses [13:55] <jaimedanser> Sooner--yes, that makes a lot of sense [13:55] <Evreka> weird [13:55] <PrunellaGringepith> what struck me was the differences in Snape's reaction to both pleas [13:55] <Snitch2006> it makes Snape even more tortured and tragic [13:56] *** Theoriser has quit [Bye] [13:56] <cloudpic> What differences, Prunella? [13:56] <tinkertime> Snape's life was certainly dismal and depressing! [13:56] <PrunellaGringepith> he is expressionless for this death [13:56] <Shard> I dunno [13:56] <vertigo_on_high> Prunella for all we know snape could have hated charity for some reason so thats why he did not share any emotion [13:56] <Eleanora> He really did set aside all his own wants in the tasks he was forced to do, like killing dumbledore [13:56] <futureweasley> yes tinker, it certainly waws [13:56] <cloudpic> Oh... yes... poker face [13:56] <Shard> fter Lily dies what would be the point of remaining loyal to someone that didnb't save her? [13:57] <MrMcGonagall> Snape's reaction is entirely different. [13:57] <Shard> Snape may not care for Harry [13:57] <Eleanora> he knew he'd get a bad reputation, lose trust from the order etc. [13:57] <Shard> But he seems to really care about taking down LV at any cost [13:57] <SoonerGryffindor> yes Shard [13:57] <Evreka> I think the problem is that my background is white.... Im'm in the new chat [13:57] <bemused> yes Shard [13:57] <NimbusFlyer> yes Shard! [13:57] <jaimedanser> Shard--hmm...well, yes, but that's only because LV killed Lily I think [13:57] <cloudpic> The good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one. [13:57] <SoonerGryffindor> ahhh, I keep using the old interface. [13:57] <tinkertime> so true cloudpic [13:57] <Aislinn> he does seem to desire to take down LV, I definitely agree with that. [13:57] <futureweasley> What did you initially think of the competition between Yaxley and Snape to have Voldemort accept their counsel. Why was Yaxley so anxious? (Rooftop Garden) [13:57] <Aislinn> but it was to revenge Lily [13:57] <Aislinn> Not for Harry [13:57] <fawkes28> yes - he does want to take LV down but just for Lily [13:57] <ProngsPatronus> except that , for Snape, it was all about himself [13:58] <fawkes28> exactly, Aislinn [13:58] <ProngsPatronus> his pain, his loss, his grief [13:58] *** Questauthor has joined #lounge [13:58] <SoonerGryffindor> I love it that Snape was honored over Yaxley. Shows what an idiot LV is [13:58] * NimbusFlyer wonders if there are pretty clouds on the planet Vulcan ;D [13:58] <fawkes28> hey questauthor! [13:58] <HeliumHead> so, it seems safe to say that Snape just wants revenge [13:58] <Aislinn> his, his, his - yes prongs [13:58] <ProngsPatronus> that is not the many, or the few--that is the one [13:58] <bemused> i think in a set-up like LV's it's very cut=throat [13:58] <Eleanora> Yeah if it was just James that Voldermort ad killed and Lily was really set aside, he wouldn't want to look after Harry as much [13:58] <cloudpic> It made Snape seem wonderfully calm and in control to see the way Yaxley acted [13:58] <Shard> Yaxley probably doesn't trust Snape [13:58] <ascellaskat> because Yaxley wants to get close to power [13:58] <Questauthor> Hello everyone [13:58] <JaneMarple9> yaxley was jealous of snape [13:58] <tinkertime> everyone had been so sure Snape was anti-voldy before and now they have to take a back seat to him cause he killed DD - it upset the pecking order [13:58] <fawkes28> Yaxley is not as confident as Snape [13:58] <PrunellaGringepith> it shows that they are all looking to get one up on each other to win LV's favour [13:58] <Aislinn> Voldemort probably sets up a competitive environment [13:58] <MrMcGonagall> I think Yaxley is as anxious as any DE to deliver the goods and move up in LV's opinion. [13:58] <Aislinn> it is necessary to earn your place [13:58] <Evreka> Yaxley wanted to get some credit for his hard work - hoping to get a better position with Voldemort [13:58] <JaneMarple9> he knew that snape was voldies favourite - or one of them [13:58] <Snitch2006> i agree mr Mcgonagall [13:58] <Shard> Agreed Aislinn, just like a certain DO we know? ;) [13:59] <vertigo_on_high> Yaxley was like a low end Bellatrix [13:59] <bemused> they compete for his favour or keep very quiet and hope not to be noticed at all [13:59] <Snitch2006> power is very addictive. [13:59] <fawkes28> none of the death eaters are as sure of themselves as Snape because Snape has a sure purpose and is a greeat wizard and i dont consider the majority of DEs to be great [13:59] <JaneMarple9> he wanted to please voldie [13:59] <vertigo_on_high> as DD said snitch [13:59] <futureweasley> a repeat of the question for our newcomers: What did you initially think of the competition between Yaxley and Snape to have Voldemort accept their counsel. Why was Yaxley so anxious? (Rooftop Garden) [13:59] <Questauthor> Flying under the radar is a good thing in the DE world [13:59] <PrunellaGringepith> i suspect none of the other DE's like Snape much [13:59] <Questauthor> Anxious cuz Volde would AK is butt if he didn't like the answer he gave [13:59] <Questauthor> his* [13:59] <PrunellaGringepith> any more that the order did [13:59] <Shard> Yaxley was probably sure of his info but I do think they compete agfinst each other [13:59] <JaneMarple9> nice answer Questauthor laugh [13:59] *** Evreka left #lounge [Leaving] [14:00] <ProngsPatronus> I think that Snape did not care for Voldemort's good opinion [14:00] <MrMcGonagall> Good thing Yaxley lost that battle - imagine the consequences for him if he had convvinced LV his information was correct! [14:00] *** Evreka has joined #lounge [14:00] <Eleanora> Yaxley's probably quite intimidated by what Voldemort can do [14:00] <ProngsPatronus> and that can be very addictive to an emotional abuser like Voldemort [14:00] <Eleanora> and how Voldy rewards the good [14:00] <Aislinn> that's a great point, Mr M [14:00] <cloudpic> I wonder why they didn't seem to feel there was room for a larger number to be in favor? [14:00] <Eleanora> and punishes the bad [14:00] <blue4t_> I wondered during that chapter if maybe Snape had the wrong information and Yaxley was actually correct. [14:00] <JaneMarple9> good point eleanora [14:00] <Aislinn> He would have experience quite the Crucio [14:00] <Evreka> sorry the whole thing just froze - in on old one now [14:00] <tinkertime> but snape had to play the DE game - [14:00] <cloudpic> yes, Mr. McG... Snape actually saved Yaxley, didn't he [14:00] <MFactor> Yaxley wanted to be of use to LV. He doesn't wish to be in the same position as Lucius...basicly powerless [14:01] *** cloudpic has quit [Bye] [14:01] <NimbusFlyer> I wonder if Snape felt good about saving Yaxley, Cloud [14:01] <tinkertime> Voldy rules by fear - De competition plays into that [14:01] <bemused> He did, cloudpic - but by accident, i suspect [14:01] <Evreka> I think Yaxley just wanted to get a better position with Voldemort [14:01] <Aislinn> are you saying that was his intent, cloudpic? [14:01] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [14:01] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [14:01] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think Yaxley's well-being entered Snape's equation. [14:01] <ProngsPatronus> Yaxley wanted to rise in LV's estimation [14:01] <PrunellaGringepith> good point cloudpic [14:01] <Aislinn> I agree, Mr M [14:02] <Eleanora> Voldermort can't love - and therefore his DE's are no more to him than just his servants his bidders [14:02] <Aislinn> it was about keeping his own position. [14:02] <DumbleDebbie> not in his nature Mr M [14:02] <vertigo_on_high> I really think that is all there is Yaxley just wanted to move up in ranks [14:02] <Questauthor> It's about keeping his head, literally [14:02] <Eleanora> they all know they can't be on extremely close terms with him [14:02] <NimbusFlyer> I'm starting to think he might have been glad to help anyone --like Nevlille and Ginny after they stole the Sword [14:02] <futureweasley> Why did Voldemort taunt Narcissa and Bellatrix about Tonks' marriage to Lupin? (Rooftop Garden) [14:02] <vertigo_on_high> because hes mean [14:02] <PrunellaGringepith> because he is a bad bad man [14:02] <JaneMarple9> because he knew it would displease them! [14:02] <Questauthor> It's his old fear of anyone less than pure blood rising again [14:02] <bemused> To keep everyone on their toes and in awe of him [14:02] <Shard> Because LV was probably thinking it was Tonks fauylt for their disfavor [14:02] <DumbleDebbie> because he enjoys pushing people's buttons [14:02] <jaimedanser> He wanted to make them feel uncomfortable [14:02] <blue4t_> Lupin's a werewolf. Of course they don't like Tonks marrying a werewolf. [14:02] *** Evreka has quit [Bye] [14:02] <Questauthor> Plus it puts them in their place [14:02] <MrMcGonagall> Well, Bella's probably been in the doghouse since OotP. [14:02] <ProngsPatronus> yes--LV insults his "host" [14:03] <Aislinn> he rules through fear and intimidation [14:03] <Eleanora> because he loves making them feel low [14:03] <Shard> cause he's a grade a you know what [14:03] <JaneMarple9> and also, another little sly dig at the malfoy famly [14:03] <Aislinn> they are his tools of the trade [14:03] <Eleanora> and see them try and prove themselves again [14:03] <HeliumHead> i agree dumble [14:03] <vertigo_on_high> or its just Jo's way of telling us they got married [14:03] <Questauthor> Keep 'em in their place [14:03] * Shard sad [14:03] <jaimedanser> and probably make sure they understood what he wanted them to do [14:03] <Questauthor> Good one, Vertigo! [14:03] <tinkertime> it was tainting the pure blood status - making them fearful of his retaliation - keeping them off-balance [14:03] <fawkes28> He just did it to us as an example to all his Death Eaters [14:03] <JaneMarple9> yeah it's a good way to get the wedding into the story [14:03] <NimbusFlyer> He taunted Draco too--I still wonder if Draco was bitten by Fenrir in HBP [14:03] <Questauthor> Easy, simple way to get it out there for us [14:03] <blue4t_> Jo tells us again later so it's not that she HAS to tell us in the beginning. [14:03] <Eleanora> yeh i agree [14:03] <ProngsPatronus> I think he wanted Bella to volunteer to kill Tomks and Lupin--and the method he used was to shame them in front of their peers [14:03] <fawkes28> wanted to make it known what he thinks of those who are not pureblood or even fully human [14:03] <Questauthor> I think we would know if Draco was a werewolf [14:04] <futureweasley> I think he did it to rile Bella up...make sure she understood the importance "pruning the family tree" [14:04] <Questauthor> Reiterate his master plan of purity of the wizarding race [14:04] <JaneMarple9> nah draco isn't a werewolf [14:04] <NimbusFlyer> fair point, Quest [14:04] <Eleanora> He wants bella and narcissa's attempts to try and pull themselves back up [14:04] <tinkertime> Voldy's psychological games really show his evil mind at work [14:04] <fawkes28> and sadly, Bella lovely the negative attention [14:04] *** SiriusGirl79 has joined #lounge [14:04] <Eleanora> show they really are worthy [14:04] <Eleanora> because he loves power [14:04] <MrMcGonagall> I think it was to set up the danger that Lupin and Tonks were in throughout the story. Set up their deaths so it doesn't seem quite so random. [14:04] <JaneMarple9> he wanted to taunt bella [14:04] <Questauthor> Bella loved being given a special task, too [14:04] <jaimedanser> It was also a way to show that LV didn't feel friendly to anyone [14:04] <futureweasley> ture Quest [14:04] <Questauthor> Sets her apart from the others; I'm special, I get to do this for Voldemort! [14:04] <vertigo_on_high> thats true quest [14:04] <futureweasley> *true even [14:04] <tinkertime> interesting Mr McG - I hadn't thought of that [14:04] <JaneMarple9> he probably tired of her simpering [14:04] <jaimedanser> Not even Bella, despite what she thought [14:05] *** navingel2006 has joined #lounge [14:05] <Questauthor> Good point, Mr. McG [14:05] <NimbusFlyer> Well said, Mr. Mc! [14:05] <bemused> Agree, Mr M - the early chapters give a lot of warnings about how things will be [14:05] <futureweasley> Jo said that Bella was in love with LV...and I think that LV had an inkling of such feelings [14:05] <MrMcGonagall> The tension between Tonks and Bella is there through the entire novel. [14:05] <futureweasley> and knew how to use that to his advantage [14:05] <Questauthor> Oh, I def think Volde exploited her love for him [14:05] <MrMcGonagall> I agree, future. [14:05] <Questauthor> It's kind of like theSnape/Lily love on the voldemort side [14:05] <Eleanora> hmm definitely [14:05] <Shard> Thats what LV dos, exploit those that love [14:05] <NimbusFlyer> So true, bemused--I hadn't thought of it with such clarity before [14:05] <Questauthor> There's the obsessive Snape/Lily and obsessvie Bella/Volde [14:06] *** Spectre has joined #lounge [14:06] <Spectre> um... hi all, am I late? smile [14:06] <Eleanora> We know how he doesn't love, can't love, won't love so why not turn it against him [14:06] <Questauthor> And how that warps the relationships and the motives of the people involved drives the story [14:06] <bemused> Oh no, Quest - Snape's love for Lily is quite diff from Bella/LV [14:06] <Eleanora> and use it as another way to gain a loyal servant [14:06] <ProngsPatronus> hey, spectre [14:06] <Spectre> wjat [14:06] <jaimedanser> Hi Spectre [14:06] <Spectre> what's the question? [14:06] <Questauthor> II disagree, Bemused. I think obsessive is obsessive [14:06] <futureweasley> new question, actually [14:06] <ProngsPatronus> LV thinks love is for fools and the weak [14:06] <futureweasley> Why were the DEs so very pleased to have Narcissa and Bellatrix targeted by Voldemort? (Rooftop Garden) [14:06] <ProngsPatronus> I think he also tries to purge it from Bella [14:07] <HeliumHead> i agree quest [14:07] <Questauthor> To show that the favorites can be on the bottom in a heartbeat [14:07] <DumbleDebbie> b/c it wasn't them [14:07] <bemused> I don't agree that Snape's love is obsessive - it's just lasting [14:07] <Questauthor> keep everyone in line [14:07] <Eleanora> I'm still getting around how Bella even fell for that ugly thing [14:07] <Snitch2006> LOL, DumbleDebbie--I agree. [14:07] <JaneMarple9> because it showed voldie showed no mercy or favourtism [14:07] <bemused> different thing [14:07] <jaimedanser> Dumble--HAHA!!! Good one [14:07] <vertigo_on_high> future, because hes us\ually after the lower end death eaters [14:07] <ascellaskat> because it was their fall from grace [14:07] <Eleanora> but it's all the power only im sure [14:07] <Questauthor> We can agree to disagree, Bemused, no worries! [14:07] <tinkertime> again - the competition factor - and it takes the pressure off of them [14:07] <JaneMarple9> and also, yes, it wasn't them laugh [14:07] <PrunellaGringepith> they were just glad it wasn't them [14:07] <HeliumHead> because it wasn't themselves [14:07] <MrMcGonagall> I think DEs are always pleased to see some of their number in the doghouse. As the favorites sink in LV's estimation, the spaces for his favor increase. [14:07] <jaimedanser> but probably also competition [14:07] <fawkes28> It doesnt matter who he is targeting as long as it is not them [14:07] <blue4t_> It gives them the chance to move up the ranks. [14:07] <jaimedanser> they were happy Bella wasn't considered better than them [14:07] <fawkes28> if he puts someone down then the others look good [14:07] <fawkes28> pathetic group of people [14:08] <PrunellaGringepith> and because they are all nasty horrible people [14:08] <vertigo_on_high> or so they thought jaimedanser [14:08] <Spectre> The DEs just like humiliating others [14:08] <DumbleDebbie> there's an understatement fawkes LOL [14:08] <tinkertime> agree fawkes - how pathetic they all are [14:08] <jaimedanser> Guys, I have to go sad [14:08] <Eleanora> They dont really care about eachother at all [14:08] <Questauthor> later, jaimedanser! [14:08] <jaimedanser> Lunch and then grocery shopping [14:08] <ProngsPatronus> there is a limited piece of the pie---LV's regard. The more someone else has, the less you might get. Contrast that with Harry--there is no pie in a true love [14:08] <ascellaskat> all the DE are out for personal gain, they are climbing the ladder [14:08] <jaimedanser> maybe on later!!! [14:08] <JaneMarple9> take care jaime! [14:08] <HeliumHead> bye jaimedanser [14:08] <jaimedanser> BYE [14:08] <futureweasley> let's move onto chapter 2, shall we? [14:08] <Eleanora> it's all a big competition for his favour at the end of the day [14:08] *** jaimedanser has quit [Bye] [14:08] <vertigo_on_high> yes future [14:08] <futureweasley> Elphias Doge's memoriam for Dumbledore and the article about Rita's tell-all book tell two very different stories about Dumbledore. By including these pieces in the same chapter, what is Jo showing us about perspective and truth in the press? (Kwikspell) (Dragon's Den) [14:09] <tinkertime> really contrasts with the OOtP & they self sacrafice w/ the 7 Harry's [14:09] <Shard> That you need all sides of the story to see th whole [14:09] <Questauthor> I love that we had two different ends of the spectrum and the truth lying somehwere in the middle [14:09] *** Aislinn has quit [Ping timeout] [14:09] <fawkes28> she definitely taught us an important lessen with both articles [14:09] <JaneMarple9> we're seeing how different the two articles are [14:09] *** navingel2006 left #lounge [Leaving] [14:09] <Spectre> That the truth is somewhere in between [14:09] <JaneMarple9> we need to have the whole story [14:09] <MrMcGonagall> When dealing with individual viewpoints, the truth is found between the lines and by examining different perspectives. [14:09] <fawkes28> that you cannot always believe everythign that you read [14:09] <blue4t_> They both contained truth...and she knew we would probably believe Doge before Skeeter. [14:09] <Snitch2006> the media can slant things for it's own purpose. [14:09] <vertigo_on_high> we will in the encyclopedia [14:09] <Questauthor> And it throws Harry off, makes him question where he might not have before [14:09] <futureweasley> essentially, I think there were 2 different Dumbledores...the one that he showed to people, and the one he hid away [14:09] <ascellaskat> it was interesting to see two different perspectives on the same person [14:09] <tinkertime> as Thomas jefferson said, "the only thing truthful in a newspaper is the advertisements" [14:10] <Eleanora> you really see the effect of what lies can make something be percieved [14:10] <bemused> I loved the way she let the story emerge through conflicting sources - this is just how you research real biography [14:10] <JaneMarple9> perhaps rita was finally writing some half-truths sad [14:10] <MrMcGonagall> Neither account of DD's life was completely convincing. [14:10] <fawkes28> and eventually, you need to make your own judges about people or things - which Harry went on a journey and figured it out [14:10] <bemused> much, much better than just handing us the story [14:10] <Questauthor> It was definitely masterful, the way she wove it into the entire storyline [14:10] <SoonerGryffindor> I absolultey loved getting to see the flawed DD [14:10] <futureweasley> right, MrMcG...I agree [14:10] <Snitch2006> I agree. futureweasly. I think most of us are that way. A public side and a private side [14:10] <PrunellaGringepith> it shows that there are two sides to every story [14:10] <vertigo_on_high> did these stories make you hate DD like it made me [14:10] <Shard> I agree Sooner [14:10] <futureweasley> they were both slanted to one side or another [14:10] <HeliumHead> well, it is all about the perspective of the two writers [14:10] <fawkes28> I had to admit that I believed Doge's article the first time i read it - never questioned it at all [14:10] <DumbleDebbie> not at all vertigo [14:10] <Spectre> Doge's memoriam about sums up our image of Dumbledore from the previous six books... and Rita gets us ready for Book Seven [14:10] <Questauthor> I think it showed that DD was as conflicted, in many ways, as Harry [14:10] <JaneMarple9> i found doge's article very touching - much more like the dumbledore we knew [14:11] *** Oddment has joined #lounge [14:11] <tinkertime> True fawkes - harry kept wanting the truth - but sometimes you just have to decide for yourself - rather than waiting for someone else to tell you [14:11] <blue4t_> I was like Harry, quick to believe Skeeter wrote no truth at all. [14:11] <MrMcGonagall> Rita was obviously filling in the blanks with her usual vicious guesswork, but Doge was obviously skimming over anything that could have been in an unpleasant light. [14:11] <Questauthor> I think it showed the DD that Albus wished he were [14:11] <JaneMarple9> while rita seems to be writing rumours yet again [14:11] <Shard> I actually believed Rita over Dog... [14:11] <vertigo_on_high> me to shard [14:11] <futureweasley> What do Harry's reactions to both pieces tell us about his relationship with Dumbledore? (Kwikspell) (Dragon's Den) [14:11] <MrMcGonagall> I didn't believe either of them 100% [14:11] <Questauthor> It's evolving [14:11] <JaneMarple9> it shows us how little we knew about dumbledore [14:11] <Shard> That DD was in the habit of keeping secrets [14:11] <blue4t_> He never believed Dumbledore could do anything remotely bad. [14:11] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [14:11] <Shard> and we were learing the full truth [14:11] <Spectre> Harry loved Dumbledore [14:11] <tinkertime> Harry had alot of unresolved issues w/ DD befoer he died [14:12] <Questauthor> He's losing the "pedestal" DD and gaining knowledge of the him as a person, with flaws [14:12] <MrMcGonagall> There's obviously more to DD than he or we ever thought. [14:12] <Eleanora> that he never truly revelealed everything he should hace [14:12] <JaneMarple9> harry didn't know dumbledore and he wishes he asked more questions [14:12] <Shard> Doge just repeats what others have already said IE Remus, Hagrid, Minerva [14:12] <fawkes28> that Harry really should have asked him more questions [14:12] <vertigo_on_high> right quest [14:12] <futureweasley> I think he felt that he didn't know DD at all...and that he began to feel selfish for not "taking" more than he "gave"... [14:12] <bemused> He loved DD but I don't think he had entirely trusted him for a long time [14:12] <blue4t_> yes [14:12] <Shard> So I felt that this here was the part that DD hid from Harry [14:12] <Eleanora> out of all people, Harry felt he should have been told all this more than anyone [14:12] <futureweasley> it's like the exact opposite of how someone should feel when they have a friend [14:12] <bemused> he knew DD didn't tell him everything [14:12] *** ProngsPatronus left #lounge [] [14:12] <ascellaskat> harry begins to see DD as a real person that could have flaws and made mistakes [14:12] <JaneMarple9> oh i think harry had always trusted dumbledore [14:12] <blue4t_> In a way, Harry felt like he'd been lied to by Dumbledore. [14:12] <tinkertime> and it set up for Harry to move into the adult role, become more powerful than DD ever could have been, because of his flaws [14:12] <fawkes28> I also think that most people go through this guilt after someone dies - they should have found out more about their past and had more meaningful conversations [14:12] <Shard> For a man that is supposed to Love Harry he didn't speak much at all about personal history to Harry [14:13] <fawkes28> it's a part of the grief [14:13] <Eleanora> yeah he porbably wishes he could turn back time [14:13] <vertigo_on_high> somethings are privaate i guess shard [14:13] <Shard> That crack about Abe not reading makes alot more sense now [14:13] <DumbleDebbie> b/c it wasn't about him Shard, it was about Harry [14:13] <PrunellaGringepith> his reaction showed the level of admiration he had for DD that he felt so shocked at the idea that he was flawed [14:13] <Shard> They are Vertigo [14:13] <bemused> Well, it's not surprising that DD didn't talk about his past - headteachers don't ususally do that to their students [14:13] <Shard> and DD is a mentor, not a fahter [14:13] <futureweasley> yes, fawkes, Harry was definitely just beginning the "grief" process at that point [14:13] <Eleanora> he looked up to him alot [14:13] <JaneMarple9> harry was still grieving for dumbledore - he hadn't acepted it yet [14:13] <vertigo_on_high> harry was jsut getting to be a little all caps with DD [14:13] <Shard> It diddn't surprise me at all that there was tradgedy in DD's life [14:13] <Shard> LONG life [14:13] <Questauthor> brb, gotta vacuum up glass in my son's room [14:14] <NimbusFlyer> Good point, Shard [14:14] <Eleanora> he's surprised by how much faith he had in Dumbledore now that he knows the deep details [14:14] <vertigo_on_high> she said his background was importnat [14:14] <Aislinn> I was a bit surprised by how easily Harry's view of Dd was shaken [14:14] <MrMcGonagall> I think DD was embarrassed by his mistakes, plus they weren't strictly necessary for Harry to know as DD prepared him for the horcrux hunt. [14:14] <ascellaskat> knowing about the tragedy in DD life made him more relatable to Harry [14:14] <Shard> Because Harry believed that DD HAD told him everything [14:14] <tinkertime> perfect people really don't exist - in reality or Jo's books - it makes the character much more real. and show how important forgiveness is... [14:14] <futureweasley> well, he was already feeling like he didn't know DD... [14:14] <Shard> and now seeing that DD has kept things from him yet again [14:14] <fawkes28> well, i think i was taken aback like Harry was [14:14] <NimbusFlyer> I've been surprised by fandom's shaken faith in DD [14:14] <bemused> Were you, Aislinn - but Harry had already had times in the past where he'd been angry with DD [14:15] <Oddment> I think Harry sensed a kernel of truth in Rita's article, that's why he was shaken by it [14:15] <Shard> Thats the point I believe Mr. Mg smile [14:15] <Aislinn> but to believe Rita, after having experienced her personally [14:15] <MrMcGonagall> I still have faith in DD. [14:15] <bemused> Me too, Mr M [14:15] <Aislinn> it just seemed odd to me. [14:15] <futureweasley> I wasn't really surprised that he took that leap to uncertainty...it seemed to be convenient to me [14:15] <Shard> I had faith in DD because I knew there was more then what Rita was saying [14:15] <vertigo_on_high> i started liking him again after the kings cross chapeter, after we learned dogeg had more truth [14:15] <vertigo_on_high> *doge [14:15] <Shard> And Dodge didn't want to speak of or think of what the other side of the story was [14:15] <NimbusFlyer> I do too as well--I feel like I understand his longing for justice so much better now [14:15] <fawkes28> it is quite easy to do when Dd wasn't there to answer any questions had [14:15] <Aislinn> there is no such thing as the absolute truth [14:16] <DumbleDebbie> DD's mistakes cost him too much and were too painful, even after 140 years [14:16] <Shard> I al;so understand DD's striving to give everyone a chace [14:16] *** PrunellaGringepith has quit [Bye] [14:16] <bemused> I think it made DD a much richer character, knowing that he had had difficulties, made mistakes etc [14:16] <vertigo_on_high> except with veritaseruem [14:16] <Aislinn> people have the perceptions they have, based on their own perceptions and interactions [14:16] <tinkertime> exactly Aislinn [14:16] <Aislinn> who Doge knew was not the same person Aberforth knew [14:16] <Shard> That is true Aislinn [14:16] <Aislinn> or Bathilda [14:16] <futureweasley> Harry's setting aside the things of his childhood are another powerful Memoriam here. What discarded item most touched your heart? (Dragon's Den) (cloudpic) [14:16] <DumbleDebbie> Doge knew Albus' heart. Rita hadn't a clue [14:16] <Eleanora> we see the whole series mainly through Harry's eyes [14:16] <Shard> But we needed to hear the different sides of the story of what happened [14:16] <NimbusFlyer> Well said, Aislinn [14:16] <vertigo_on_high> nothing really for me [14:16] <Shard> What did he discard? [14:17] <JaneMarple9> the cedric diggory badge [14:17] <NimbusFlyer> Quidditch robes, for sure [14:17] <Spectre> His Quiddith robes, perhaps... [14:17] <vertigo_on_high> yeah jane biggrin [14:17] <Aislinn> yes, shard, we got a much more rounded picture [14:17] <blue4t_> Oh, the Quidditch robes, yes [14:17] <bemused> Yes - the Quidditch robes [14:17] <Shard> I guess nothing for me lol [14:17] <Eleanora> oh yeah, the quidditch [14:17] <Spectre> Quidditch [14:17] <JaneMarple9> his quidditch robes yes [14:17] <tinkertime> definitely NOT his dirty underwear smile [14:17] <Shard> I guess I was like "Let's go already!" lol [14:17] <Eleanora> that was quite a highlight in his life - the qudditch [14:17] <blue4t_> I know Rowling said there was no Quidditch in this book, but seeing him discard the robes really hit home that he wasn't going back to Hogwarts. [14:17] <vertigo_on_high> i never really liked quiditch so... [14:17] <MrMcGonagall> Hmm. I can't really decide. [14:17] <bemused> because in a way, quidditch represented freedom for Harry [14:17] <NimbusFlyer> hehehe, Tinker [14:17] <DumbleDebbie> nothing really until Chapter 4 sad [14:17] <Eleanora> and to give it up at the time showed he knew it would get darker [14:17] <Aislinn> it gave me a pang that he wasn't going back to school, so setting aside all of the school robes, parchment and quills was a wrench. [14:17] <blue4t_> yes, Aislinn [14:17] <HeliumHead> broken sneakoscope [14:18] <JaneMarple9> yeah it told us that harry wouldn't play quidditch any more [14:18] <Shard> Yeah that did bum me out, I had hoped Harry would go back to Hogwarts [14:18] <NimbusFlyer> Oh, DumbleD.... [14:18] <Shard> But I don't resent that he didnt [14:18] <SoonerGryffindor> it was like he was setting aside his youth and moving onto adulthood [14:18] <SiriusGirl79> robes, definitely. it meant he wasn't going back to school. [14:18] <blue4t_> Yes, Sooner [14:18] <Spectre> Was there any Quidditch at all during Snape's tenure? smile [14:18] <Aislinn> yes it was, sooner [14:18] <futureweasley> Did any make you laugh? (Dragon's Den) (cloudpic) [14:18] <JaneMarple9> yes sooner exactly [14:18] <Eleanora> but it did mean that he knew what he had to give up [14:18] <blue4t_> Harry was depressing me in that chapter. [14:18] <NimbusFlyer> Def. sooner [14:18] <Shard> I agree Soonerg, this book is about Men becoming Men and women becomging Women [14:18] <Eleanora> he was always one to accept what was coming [14:18] *** fawkes28 has quit [Bye] [14:18] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [14:18] <bemused> It was also stripping him of the past, and all the things that had made up his story so far [14:18] <Shard> If there was a cooler way to say it I would lol [14:18] <Aislinn> just the comment about him seeking through the mulch at the bottom of the trunk [14:18] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [14:19] <Shard> Filthy [14:19] <JaneMarple9> how he hadn't properly emptied the trunk for six years! [14:19] <Aislinn> I thought that was really funny [14:19] <JaneMarple9> how like a boy! [14:19] <Shard> I can't believ ehe let it get THAT filthy [14:19] <MrMcGonagall> I thought it was disgusting. [14:19] <MrMcGonagall> LOL [14:19] <bemused> in the first few chapters he loses more or less everything, except his friends [14:19] <blue4t_> he's a boy... [14:19] <Shard> I never let things get THAT filthy [14:19] <Shard> Jeez [14:19] <Shard> So am I [14:19] <tinkertime> he really was a messy fellow [14:19] <vertigo_on_high> what made me laugh was how stupid i was when reading the chapter, when it said he hadnt cleaned it our for 6 years i thought it was 6 years in the future that the chapter was set [14:19] <SoonerGryffindor> it was like he was taking out everything he had stuffed in there during his entire shcool life. He was finally dredging everything that he had ignored out and was examining it [14:19] <Aislinn> yes, bemused, everything of value gets stripped away from him [14:19] <vertigo_on_high> out* [14:19] <NimbusFlyer> I smiled that he held the badge as it said "Potter stinks" he really can step back from some things [14:19] <JaneMarple9> hermione would clean hers out once a week - on a bad week laugh [14:19] <blue4t_> I'm just kidding. I'd probably be like Harry and let it get filthy and I'm a female. [14:19] <Shard> Agreed Sooner [14:19] <Snitch2006> kind of symbolically cleaning his own emotional baggage [14:20] <DumbleDebbie> he progressively loses things until the Silver Doe chapter, and at that point he starts getting them back [14:20] <blue4t_> oh, yes [14:20] <HeliumHead> well, he had a couple of years where the trunk was lokcked up when he was in privett drive [14:20] <Shard> Agreed DD [14:20] <Aislinn> yes, heliumhead [14:20] <Oddment> i thought it was funny that he couldn't repair a simple cut on his finger [14:20] <JaneMarple9> yes oddment [14:20] <vertigo_on_high> he wasnt of age yet oddment [14:20] <Shard> Yeah didn't he know Episky from last year? [14:20] <SoonerGryffindor> I think it was hilarious he had that badge in there in the first place. I wonder if Ron stuck it in tehre at some time? [14:20] <vertigo_on_high> he had the trace still [14:20] <Shard> Oh thats true [14:20] <bemused> ah... i think he gets things back before then Debbie. Lily's letter gives him back his lost childhood [14:20] <bemused> or a fragment of it [14:20] <futureweasley> As Harry sorted his possessions, how well do you think he planned for his future hunting Horcruxes? (Dragon's Den) [14:20] <vertigo_on_high> he could get some neosporin [14:21] <Shard> Why would he have kept the badge? For Cedric? [14:21] <MrMcGonagall> He wasn't supposed to be using magic yet. He was still underage [14:21] <blue4t_> No, Harry said he hadn't learned how to heal injuries properly. [14:21] <JaneMarple9> he packed the essentials [14:21] <Shard> Not as well as Hermione did [14:21] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that Harry did very well actually [14:21] <Snitch2006> he was sunk without hermoine. [14:21] <vertigo_on_high> not as good as hermione [14:21] <tinkertime> for harry he was fine - but the real planner was Hermione [14:21] <SoonerGryffindor> how many of us would keep things because they held sentimental value? [14:21] <bemused> Well, his bag wasn't as big as hers! [14:21] <Eleanora> he knew fully that it would be a difficult task [14:21] <JaneMarple9> he knew hermione and ron would help him organise the things better [14:21] <blue4t_> Honestly, I don't think he did much planning. [14:21] <DumbleDebbie> not as well as Hermione [14:21] <Shard> Even Ron planned better [14:21] <Spectre> Harry did everything he could at that point [14:21] <MrMcGonagall> I don't think Harry had really planned at all. [14:21] <blue4t_> I agree [14:21] <Eleanora> so packed all the things he knew had gotten him out of trouble before [14:21] <SoonerGryffindor> he did a good job keeping only what was needed [14:21] <DumbleDebbie> I would SOoner [14:21] <vertigo_on_high> harry didnt have anything good to take [14:21] <Aislinn> he got down to essentials, but I don't think he planned for his trip. [14:21] <DumbleDebbie> I'm a sucker that way [14:21] <JaneMarple9> he didn't know exactly what he'd need [14:21] *** Shard has quit [Bye] [14:21] <SiriusGirl79> he took potion ingredients, but not the cauldron [14:22] <blue4t_> I don't really think he knew where to begin to plan. [14:22] <vertigo_on_high> haha Sirius your right [14:22] <NimbusFlyer> In terms of actual orgainzing--the planning throughout the book could have been more linear imho. But I was AMAZED at his emotional preparations [14:22] <SoonerGryffindor> the fact that he left behind his quidditch robees says a lot [14:22] <bemused> it's rather hard to plan when you haven't a clue where you're going or what you're doing... [14:22] <fawkes28> that was so sad [14:22] <JaneMarple9> yes he knew there would be no more quidditch [14:22] <tinkertime> he took the Inv. cloak & his wand- probably the only things he needed [14:22] <blue4t_> Exactly, bemused [14:22] <MrMcGonagall> He was unburdening himself of his youth, but I don't think he really had anything but himself with which to move on. [14:22] <fawkes28> it was like he was leaving his childhood behind though [14:22] <JaneMarple9> he knew he'd need his cloak and the wand [14:22] <fawkes28> so i do think it was appropriate [14:22] <blue4t_> that's so sad. [14:22] <Aislinn> agreed, Mr M [14:22] <JaneMarple9> exactly fawkes [14:22] *** Shard has joined #lounge [14:23] <Shard> Back [14:23] <Eleanora> he accepts whats going to come isnt gonna be easy [14:23] <Shard> What question are we on? [14:23] <Spectre> Why did he take his potions kit, but leave the cauldron behind? %) [14:23] <Oddment> if harry had a bag like hermione's, what else would he have taken? [14:23] <futureweasley> I don't think he really knew what to do...where even to begin [14:23] <fawkes28> even though it would have been amusing to have him and ron tossing the quaffle around in the woods, it certainly would not have been practical [14:23] <SiriusGirl79> he took the marauder's map. did he know he would be going to hogwarts at some point [14:23] <Eleanora> and already he went through so much [14:23] <MrMcGonagall> Hermione with her sharp analytical mind had a better approach to actual planning than Harry did. [14:23] <futureweasley> I think Harry was quite overwhelmed at that point [14:23] <tinkertime> it set up Ron & hermione's feeling that the quest was hopeless, later in the book [14:23] <vertigo_on_high> he thought a horcrux was there sirius [14:23] <Shard> I think he took the map for one reason and one reason only, Ginny [14:23] <JaneMarple9> harry didn't know what he'd need [14:23] <blue4t_> Partly [14:23] <MrMcGonagall> Harry is more focused about bringing closure to certain aspects of his life at this point. [14:23] <Shard> That map is useless otherwise [14:23] <tinkertime> it was just Harry - and he was "winging it" [14:23] <Snitch2006> bye for now [14:24] <SoonerGryffindor> besides his map, cloak, and wand, what else did harry really need to bring? [14:24] <Eleanora> bye [14:24] <blue4t_> The map has always been useful to him, it's a connection to his father, and maybe he thought he might have to go to Hogwarts. [14:24] *** Snitch2006 has quit [Bye] [14:24] <Shard> Its scary to step into the Adult shoes of responsiblity [14:24] <SoonerGryffindor> he knew Hermione would have loads of things [14:24] <vertigo_on_high> his book of pics of his parents [14:24] <Spectre> Marauders' Map is also a memory of James and Sirius [14:24] <blue4t_> And of course, he can watch Ginny's dot. [14:24] <Shard> When you dont have any adults to tell you waht to do [14:24] <Questauthor> I do think Harry could have been more prepared, but not sure how [14:24] <Aislinn> food, a tent, a plan [14:24] <futureweasley> Almost as an afterthought, Harry recalled mention in the Daily Fishwrap of the resignation of Professor Burbage. How did that tidbit of information end up in the newspaper? (Rooftop Garden) [14:24] <tinkertime> i don't think he needed anything else - that he had at that point [14:24] <NimbusFlyer> Yes, A--the things that Hermione thought of [14:24] <Shard> They didn't have much of a plan now did they? [14:24] <Questauthor> I'm sure it was filtered through the MoM [14:24] <vertigo_on_high> voldy was taking over i guess biggrin [14:25] <fawkes28> Jo just wanted to plant it there for us [14:25] <Spectre> Someone DE-influenced Ministry employee let that slip [14:25] <SoonerGryffindor> it must have been before the DE's had complete control [14:25] <DumbleDebbie> Snape, the new headmaster, probably fed them the false story [14:25] <Shard> Probably Pius [14:25] <JaneMarple9> preparing us for the new teachers [14:25] <blue4t_> accident or on purpose, Spectre? [14:25] <tinkertime> another MoM cover-up [14:25] <SiriusGirl79> voldy wanted to get rid of suspicion on him, and lay low [14:25] <HeliumHead> i agree dumble [14:25] <Eleanora> oh good point shard [14:25] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, I think it was just a cover-up. [14:25] <vertigo_on_high> true sirius [14:25] <Aislinn> LV was setting up doubt and uncertaintly [14:25] <Eleanora> I never believed for a second that she really retired [14:25] <bemused> Cover story, to hide the fact that they'd taken her [14:25] <JaneMarple9> yeah the MoM was probably covering up [14:25] <Questauthor> Truth and lies were already blurring [14:25] <vertigo_on_high> haha eleanora [14:26] <Eleanora> Im sure her death and the mention the paper was linked [14:26] <Shard> LV is exceptionaly good at causing Disorder, chaos and fear isn't he? [14:26] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [14:26] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [14:26] <MrMcGonagall> LV hasn't seized control of the Ministry yet. Better if people don't start wondering about the absence of a hogwarts rofessor. [14:26] <tinkertime> shows the downward spiral at the MoM continuing and expanding [14:26] <Eleanora> k [14:26] <NimbusFlyer> Good insight, DumbleD--it blows my mind t think of all the day-today things that Snape had to do to keep his cover [14:26] <Aislinn> yes, Mr M - his tools were uncertainty and doubt. He didn't want people to have a reason to get angry and resist. [14:27] <bemused> maybe Hogwarts appointments are always recorded in the paper [14:27] *** Amontillada has joined #lounge [14:27] <futureweasley> that seems like a fair point, bemused [14:27] <vertigo_on_high> maybe bemused [14:27] <Shard> It's a scary look at the foreshadowing of things to come, LV's influence increasing [14:27] <futureweasley> isn't that "newsworthy?" [14:27] <DumbleDebbie> for all we know, Snape may have been the one to send her there [14:27] <NimbusFlyer> very well could be, bemused [14:27] <vertigo_on_high> true DD [14:28] <futureweasley> Dumbledore came to Hogwarts with the baggage of notoriety due to his father's conviction the previous summer. He shed his father's notoriety and acquired his reputation for brilliance. Did he push to get his new rep because of his father's notoriety, or did that make any difference at all? (Rooftop Garden) [14:28] <NimbusFlyer> to Mafoly Manor, DD? [14:28] <DumbleDebbie> yep nimbus, it's possible he did that on Voldy's orders [14:28] <vertigo_on_high> DD i think was just trully brilliant and his Dad had nothing to do with it [14:28] <NimbusFlyer> whoa [14:28] <JaneMarple9> dumbledore was simlar to harry [14:28] <Spectre> Dumbledore had some determination, that's for sure [14:28] <SoonerGryffindor> I think DD was going to be brilliant no matter what [14:28] <Shard> Yeah he could have been Slytherin... [14:28] <Oddment> brilliance will out, regardless [14:28] <bemused> I think he just was brilliant and enjoyed studying [14:28] <NimbusFlyer> Nicely said, Jane [14:28] <Questauthor> I think it was a pushing point for him [14:29] <Eleanora> Well, Dumbeldore knew that he may have had to work extra hard to get accepeted [14:29] <Shard> DD ceertainly had his own drive [14:29] <Questauthor> He was brilliant and eager to not be painted with his father's brush [14:29] <vertigo_on_high> but if you messed with DD about his dad he could blow you away! [14:29] <Eleanora> but he did want it for himself too [14:29] <JaneMarple9> dumbledore was always going to be great at hogwarts [14:29] <tinkertime> DD had something to prove - to himself & the world - part of it was overcoming his father's reputation, but he was power hungry too [14:29] <DumbleDebbie> he would have stood out no matter what his family background [14:29] *** ascellaskat has quit [Bye] [14:29] <MrMcGonagall> I think he was just that talented. [14:29] <blue4t_> I do, too. [14:29] <vertigo_on_high> but if you messed with Dumble about his dad he could blow you away [14:29] *** LillianJames has joined #lounge [14:29] <SiriusGirl79> Dumbledore was brilliant, I think he wanted to be known for his brilliance, not his father's imprisonment [14:29] <Oddment> i wonder if DD faced a professor like Snape, though [14:29] <NimbusFlyer> I think his letter to Grindelwald gives us a glimpse that he was constantly sturggling with his identity and orle [14:29] <futureweasley> I think, actually, that DD has a lot of insecurities...his brilliance was a nice cover for them. He was quite Hermione-esque in that manner [14:30] <NimbusFlyer> *role [14:30] <HeliumHead> i agree sirius [14:30] <MrMcGonagall> Good insight, future! [14:30] <JaneMarple9> yes future [14:30] <blue4t_> I agree, future [14:30] <JaneMarple9> great point [14:30] <DumbleDebbie> what kid doesn't? [14:30] <Amontillada> I agree that Dumbledore, with his brilliance and magical gifts, was bound to be great, but he may have felt that he had to work doubly hard to prove himself after his father's conviction. [14:30] <tinkertime> it seems he wanted to be "beeter" than others - and this flaw grew in his character, until his sister's death, when he did a 360. [14:30] <tinkertime> *better [14:30] <SiriusGirl79> great point future [14:30] <futureweasley> ahh, but his insecurites weren't your average childhood insecurities [14:31] <blue4t_> Nope [14:31] <DumbleDebbie> lol, he never did anything tiny did he? LOL [14:31] <Eleanora> he had a bigger burden than some other students [14:31] <vertigo_on_high> i wonder how bad those kids abused his sister and if that had something to do with his insecurities [14:31] <Eleanora> but that wouldnt stop him reaching high [14:31] <MrMcGonagall> Father imprisoned after a spectacular Muggle attack, insane sister locked in the attic... Young Albus certainly entered Hogwarts while dealing with some serious issues in his family life. [14:31] *** Amontillada has quit [Bye] [14:31] <NimbusFlyer> *testing [14:32] <fawkes28> he was known for bad reasons while harry was known for good ones [14:32] <futureweasley> right, MrMcG...secrets, lies, and crimes...I don't think he ever recovered from his family ties [14:32] *** Amontillada has joined #lounge [14:32] <Eleanora> i agree future [14:32] <DumbleDebbie> it's a lot of baggage for an 11 yr old to have to carry for sure [14:32] <Eleanora> not when he had to turn back to it always - like during the holidays etc. [14:32] <JaneMarple9> agreed future [14:32] <Shard> It seems we get the most interesting characters from the mos disfunctional families don't we? [14:32] <JaneMarple9> dumbledore had a lot to deal with [14:32] <blue4t_> of course [14:32] <vertigo_on_high> yeah shard [14:32] <tinkertime> he created some of his own burden though - I do think it was more than circumstances of his family [14:32] <Shard> Albus's family, Snapes, Tom's, Harry's [14:32] <Eleanora> well its how they come on top of it that intrigues us [14:32] <bemused> Thing is, he knew why his father had done what he did, and that was the thing they kept secret [14:33] <JaneMarple9> yes shard exactly [14:33] *** Aislinn has quit [Ping timeout] [14:33] <MrMcGonagall> And he was burdened by knowing the truth of the whole matter, as well. [14:33] <futureweasley> What did you think of Dumbledore being in contact with so many noted witches and wizards of the day at such a young age? Was this good for Dumbledore? (Rooftop Garden) [14:33] <tinkertime> he chose to react to by trying to do some pretty major things in the name of " the greater good" [14:33] <Questauthor> I think it was good, but it also fostered that need, drive, desire for power [14:33] <fawkes28> that is an interesting question [14:33] <Spectre> It was good for Dumbledore's education, that's for sure [14:33] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think DD ever had any peers [14:33] <vertigo_on_high> yes specrte [14:33] <fawkes28> yes, it definitely did, questauthor [14:33] <Questauthor> And let's face it, his ego was inflated by their attention [14:33] <Shard> suddenly the words "It would be better for him to grow up away from all that fame until he is ready to take it" [14:33] <DumbleDebbie> probably the only way he could have an intelectually stimulating conversation [14:33] <MrMcGonagall> DD was pretty aware of his own brilliance. Temptation to hubris, to be sure. [14:33] <Shard> I think it was bad perhaps [14:33] <NimbusFlyer> I agree Sooner--he was a prodigy [14:33] <SoonerGryffindor> he was so far above his classmates and that only left the adults [14:33] <vertigo_on_high> Good Debbie [14:33] <bemused> I can't see why it would be harmful to him - excpet perhaps to his ego [14:34] <fawkes28> i think it would make anyone's head a little bigger than it should be [14:34] <JaneMarple9> dumbledore was always a high achiever [14:34] <Shard> It turned his head as he feared it would turn Harry's [14:34] <MrMcGonagall> Good point, Shard [14:34] <SiriusGirl79> At that age, he was seeking power, and had the brilliance to know who could help him [14:34] *** hermeeownee has joined #lounge [14:34] <Questauthor> Yet he didn't have a "DD" figure like Harry did to ground and protect him [14:34] <Eleanora> his involvement with them only made his desire for power stronger - encouraging it [14:34] <NimbusFlyer> so true,Ahrd [14:34] <fawkes28> so i guess despite all of the attention he was getting, he handled it better than other people would have [14:34] <NimbusFlyer> Shard [14:34] <Amontillada> But he did keep a fair, kind view of the world (Wizards and non-Wizards) [14:34] <vertigo_on_high> he was one of those people who likes to hang out with those older than him [14:34] <tinkertime> it gave him power that he was not ready for on an emotional level [14:34] <Eleanora> to become much bigger [14:34] <Shard> So at least we know Albus was able to grow past these things. [14:34] <Questauthor> And I think that made him a better mentor to Harry, knowing he needed that when he was young [14:34] *** jaimedanser has joined #lounge [14:34] <Oddment> maybe Jo was going for a parallel with the young Jesus confounding the priests at the temple? [14:34] <jaimedanser> Hi I'm back =D [14:35] <Eleanora> hi jaime [14:35] <blue4t_> Welcome back [14:35] <Shard> wb smile [14:35] <SiriusGirl79> hey jaime [14:35] <blue4t_> I agree, Quest. [14:35] <fawkes28> i guess i never realized that he did the best he could given the circumstances [14:35] <Eleanora> same with you quest [14:36] <Eleanora> he's a tough guy, dd is [14:36] <NimbusFlyer> nicely said, Fawkes--just like all of us [14:36] <Shard> Albus had a difficult life and I think he wanted to better the world, even if his idea of how at the time was wrong [14:36] <futureweasley> Doge says Albus never had ministerial ambitions, but is that really true? (Rooftop Garden) [14:36] <Eleanora> he indeed did learn of his ways afterwards [14:36] <jaimedanser> Shard-yes, I agree [14:36] <vertigo_on_high> no [14:36] <jaimedanser> Shard-yes, I agree [14:36] <Questauthor> Well, how many of us had different ideas of the world when we were young? And silly? [14:36] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Albus really did [14:36] <jaimedanser> Shard-yes, I agree [14:36] <fawkes28> No, I think he did at one point [14:36] <vertigo_on_high> he def. did [14:36] <JaneMarple9> he did once [14:36] <Spectre> He probably had, before Ariana's death [14:36] <DumbleDebbie> I think it would be more accurate that he chose to deny those ambitions [14:36] <Questauthor> I think Albus desired it to a point he knew it would be dangerous [14:37] <SoonerGryffindor> luckily he was smart enough to realize that as a weakness of his [14:37] <fawkes28> All people dream of becoming President [14:37] <Eleanora> yep he probably did [14:37] <SiriusGirl79> maybe he thought since he sought power at that age harry would too. Made harry that much more impressive for not seeking power [14:37] <Shard> I think he did at sopme point [14:37] <JaneMarple9> i think he'd love to be a MoM [14:37] <jaimedanser> At one point, I think he desired it [14:37] <tinkertime> he realized later that his skill outpaced his emotional development and he deliberately kept things from harry, so that Harry would not make the same mistakes [14:37] <vertigo_on_high> until the fall out with Grindelwald and his sisters death [14:37] <blue4t_> I think maybe he wanted to be minister but also knew that it would be wrong for him. Maybe he really thought he didn't deserve it. [14:37] <futureweasley> I don't, fawkes...what a thankless job [14:37] <Shard> But after Ariana died he no longer wanted it [14:37] <HeliumHead> Initially he did [14:37] <bemused> I think he cut himself off from ambition after his sister's death [14:37] <JaneMarple9> (not a Mom! laugh Minster of Magic) [14:37] <NimbusFlyer> I think so to--Was that what tempted him to don the ring horcrux? [14:37] <DumbleDebbie> good point blue [14:37] <Questauthor> I think he desired it from the get go and always denied himself [14:37] <jaimedanser> Bemused-Yes he did [14:37] <MrMcGonagall> I think he did up until Ariana's death as well. [14:37] <Eleanora> He didnt wanna get himself in such that position of power... he never know what he may have done with it [14:37] <Shard> Yeah Fakwes I agree with MJ I never wanted to be Pres [14:37] <fawkes28> well, i mean when we were kids [14:37] <JaneMarple9> I think that changed after his sister died [14:37] <fawkes28> not as adults [14:37] <DumbleDebbie> no, I wouldn't want to be President ugh [14:37] <Shard> Not as a Kid either [14:37] <vertigo_on_high> me either [14:38] <Oddment> from what we learn later, DD's ambitions may have been even higher than Minister of Magic -- he was talking about dominating Muggles [14:38] <Spectre> but being Chief Warlock of Wizengamot is also quite a powerful position [14:38] <JaneMarple9> he realised he was taking the wrong path [14:38] <Shard> I wanted to be a Resutrant Owner [14:38] <jaimedanser> I wouldn't want to be a Pres [14:38] <futureweasley> not even then...I guess there are kids that did, I just wasn't one of them [14:38] <jaimedanser> never did [14:38] <Shard> Don't know why really [14:38] <vertigo_on_high> did DD have tehse muggle under us houghts before Gridelwald or after [14:38] <JaneMarple9> he knew he would not be good with power [14:38] <futureweasley> but, back to the point, I think that DD did have his sights set on that in his younger years [14:38] <Eleanora> i agree jane [14:38] <blue4t_> There was about five minutes of my childhood that I did want to be president, but that's before I knew what it was all about. I think Dumbledore's opinion changed after his sister died. He no longer thought he was worthy. [14:38] <Shard> Yep, See I'm Hufflepuff, I don't reach for the stars, I reach for what's around me. smile [14:38] <DumbleDebbie> I do think that DD was arrogant and thought he could run things better than they were being run and make the world better so others wouldn't have to suffer as he had [14:38] <Eleanora> all the better for him, all the worse for them [14:38] <jaimedanser> futureweasley-yes [14:38] <MrMcGonagall> Yes, I can see DD aiming even higher than Britain - I think he envisioned himself even leading the whole wizarding world at one point. [14:38] <Shard> Yes DD definatly was an ambitous youth [14:39] <Eleanora> he knows he may do some big things with that power - good or bad [14:39] <fawkes28> i think Dd knew he was smart enough to be Minister and I am sure he thought about it and had dreams but then his sister's death really changed him [14:39] <Shard> He wanted to change it, to make the Muggles understand the Wizards [14:39] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [14:39] *** Aislinn has quit [Bye] [14:39] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [14:39] <SiriusGirl79> he didn't trust himself with the power of MoM after what happened to ariana [14:39] <jaimedanser> Dumbledore definitely had the abilities to be a ruler [14:39] <futureweasley> that I agree with, fawkes [14:39] <jaimedanser> but that's not always a good thing [14:39] <tinkertime> yes Mr McG - and the fact that he grew to recognize this danger in himself - that he turned away from power, was his triumph over his childhood [14:39] <Shard> Then Grindelwald goes to far with teh whole "Greater Good" [14:39] <Questauthor> It hink, given everything, he would have been a better MoM than he gives himself credit for [14:39] <jaimedanser> If Dumbledore hadn't realised that, he might not've been any better than Scrimgeour [14:40] <MrMcGonagall> What motivated Grindelwald and DD were very different things. [14:40] <Questauthor> But perhaps he didn't want his family issues to be dragged into the mix as often happens in politics [14:40] <vertigo_on_high> like DD said those who do not seek power are the best fit to rule it and he did seek power so he thought that he was not worthy in the end [14:40] <blue4t_> Good point, Quest. [14:40] <bemused> I think you're right, Quest, he was just too afraid of his own ambition to try it [14:40] <Questauthor> As Headmaster, his past could stay his past to a better extent [14:40] <DumbleDebbie> I think if he had allowed himself to be MoM he'd have been too tempted for even more power, that was his weakness [14:40] <jaimedanser> Quest-yes [14:40] <NimbusFlyer> Was that what DD failed to understand at the time, Mr. McG? [14:40] <Shard> That is a good point, Politians like to sling mud [14:40] <jaimedanser> it could [14:40] <futureweasley> I actually agree with that too, QuestAuthor...but I'm glad he didn't persue it. I think Hogwarts would have been a much gloomier place without DD as Headmaster [14:40] *** Eleanora has quit [Bye] [14:40] <Questauthor> But knowing your weakness allows you to compensate for it [14:40] <Questauthor> I am too, Future [14:40] <Shard> But this also I think gives Fudge reason to believe that DD would have Ministry amibtions [14:40] *** Eleanora has joined #lounge [14:40] *** Spectre has quit [Bye] [14:41] <DumbleDebbie> he knew he couldn't control it though, even when he found the ring he couldn't stop himself using it [14:41] <SiriusGirl79> good point Quest no one wants their secrets exposed [14:41] *** Spectre has joined #lounge [14:41] <futureweasley> .Was Aberforth jealous of Albus? Why or why not? (Rooftop Garden) [14:41] <Oddment> right... maybe fudge wasn't so paranoid after all [14:41] <Shard> What McGonagall can't be a good headmistress? Though I do agree lol [14:41] <DumbleDebbie> yes [14:41] <fawkes28> of course he was [14:41] <Shard> I dont think he was [14:41] <jaimedanser> Yes, I do think Aberforth was jealous of Albus [14:41] <Eleanora> Well the problem of his being in his brothers shadow [14:41] <vertigo_on_high> no he was just angry that he didnt care for arianna as much [14:41] <blue4t_> Is jealous the right word? [14:41] <jaimedanser> I would be if Albus was my brother [14:41] <Spectre> Aberforth disliked Albus for his attitude towards Ariana [14:41] <Eleanora> would occur to him [14:41] <tinkertime> with Albus as a brother - how could you not be [14:41] <futureweasley> I think Aberforth actually pittied Albus [14:41] <JaneMarple9> yes aberforth was jealous of albus [14:41] <Shard> I dont think Abe wanted power [14:41] <MrMcGonagall> For a short time, I think he failed to grasp it, Nimbus. [14:41] <fawkes28> he had to live in his shadow and hear how great albus was [14:41] <Shard> I think Abe wants what Ron wants [14:41] <Shard> To be his own man [14:41] <futureweasley> their priorities were just so different [14:42] <Spectre> Aberforth is too different to be actually jealous of Albus [14:42] <JaneMarple9> just as sirius was jealous of regulus and vice versa [14:42] <Oddment> before araiana's death, abe was jealous... afterward, resentful [14:42] <bemused> i think he resented him [14:42] <DumbleDebbie> he was so jealous his skin likely turned green [14:42] <NimbusFlyer> The energy I shared with my siblings in childhood is still present in our friendships now [14:42] <vertigo_on_high> why was sirius jeaous of regulus [14:42] <Aislinn> yes, I think a part of their differences were jealousy [14:42] <jaimedanser> Oddment-YES [14:42] <SiriusGirl79> not jealous, maybe resentful [14:42] <Eleanora> hehe debbie [14:42] <NimbusFlyer> both possitive and negative [14:42] <HeliumHead> i think that you've nailed it shard [14:42] <Eleanora> Sibling rivalry [14:42] *** charvi has joined #lounge [14:42] <Eleanora> it'll always happen [14:42] <blue4t_> Definitely [14:42] <fawkes28> yes, it is quite natural [14:42] <JaneMarple9> aberforth has had a difficult childhood - a sister who needed constant watching and a high achieving brother [14:43] *** MFactor has quit [Bye] [14:43] <Aislinn> we're talking about aberforth and albus's relationship, charvi [14:43] <futureweasley> I think that Aberforth saw Albus as "foolish"...but I don't think that there was jealousy there. I think Aberforth thought that Albus was wasting the talent and brightness that he did have for the wrong things [14:43] <Oddment> right, jane [14:43] <fawkes28> the middle child is a hard position to be in [14:43] <charvi> ok [14:43] <HeliumHead> one might say over achiving, Jane [14:43] <vertigo_on_high> true fawkes [14:43] <blue4t_> you aren't kidding, fawkes [14:43] <SiriusGirl79> good point future [14:43] <JaneMarple9> yes fawkes - aberforth was the typical middle child [14:43] <bemused> Aberforth didn't seem to have a very good relationship with his mother [14:43] <Eleanora> good point fawkes [14:43] <jaimedanser> Yes, Jane, he was [14:44] <NimbusFlyer> Just like Ron and Percy each dealt with their positions differently [14:44] <NimbusFlyer> Niether got it perfectly right [14:44] <DumbleDebbie> the only person Aberforth seemed to have a good relationship with was Ariana as far as I can see [14:44] <JaneMarple9> i think mrs dumbledore concentrated on ariana and albus [14:44] <DumbleDebbie> even as an adult [14:44] <futureweasley> yes Nimbus...that's sort of how I see Abe and Albus [14:44] <tinkertime> Abe had to be angry when DD was just going to take off on the world tour and leave him to care for the family - i'm sure Abe wished he could trade places and when DD had to care for the family - I think Abe thought DD had got wwhat he deserved [14:44] <bemused> maybe with his father it was better... [14:44] <JaneMarple9> wasn't all that bothered about aberforth [14:44] <DumbleDebbie> lol Jane [14:45] <vertigo_on_high> abe seemed a little angry with life aat the end of the book so i agree with jane [14:45] *** SoonerGryffindor has quit [Bye] [14:45] <Aislinn> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. [14:45] <futureweasley> At the end of his tribute, Doge, notes "that he died as he lived...and, to his last hour, as willing to stretch out a hand to a small boy with dragon pox as he was on the day I met him." Is this an intended reference to Draco? (cloudpic) [14:45] <MrMcGonagall> Abe allowed himself to be pushed into the position he was in. [14:45] <NimbusFlyer> As an oldest--there is a real strain when that first break in the family occurs--I think that's what Albus was going through [14:45] *** tinkertime has quit [Bye] [14:45] *** tinkertime has joined #lounge [14:46] <jaimedanser> Yes, I think it is [14:46] <DumbleDebbie> I doubt Doe knew of Draco being there, but Jo may have meant that [14:46] <vertigo_on_high> no why would doge no about draco? [14:46] <DumbleDebbie> *Doge [14:46] <Eleanora> yeh there is definitely pressure [14:46] <MrMcGonagall> It is an oddly subtle reference. [14:46] <jaimedanser> It showed that Dumbledore always wanted to help [14:46] *** Oddment has quit [Bye] [14:46] <JaneMarple9> could be [14:46] *** Oddment has joined #lounge [14:46] <vertigo_on_high> that all it is is that he always wanted to help [14:46] <Shard> I think that does show DD's mercy [14:46] <Questauthor> I I think it is, but how Doge knows I have no clue [14:46] <JaneMarple9> never connected it before with draco [14:46] <MrMcGonagall> I think it was just Jo being funny. [14:46] <Shard> That DD is willing to reach out a hand to people [14:46] <NimbusFlyer> Great catch and question, Cloudpic! Yes, by all means [14:47] <Shard> I think it's proof that he did love Harry [14:47] <futureweasley> I think Jo did that intentionally...but I agree with Debbie, I don't think Doge knew about Draco on the Astronomy Tower [14:47] <JaneMarple9> but it shows dumvledore's understanding side [14:47] <Spectre> If it was, Harry would notice biggrin [14:47] <fawkes28> i think so too, Shard [14:47] <jaimedanser> No, Doge didn't know [14:47] <Shard> Oh Doge didn't know no [14:47] <Oddment> I doubt Doge knew about Draco, he was just saying DD continued to be a good teacher and mentor [14:47] <Shard> But I mean that why would you reach your hand to someone who has a fatal disease? BEcause you care to comfort them [14:47] <Oddment> But WE know... smile [14:47] <vertigo_on_high> it could just be that jo intended us to think it was about him so as we were not to forget or forshadow what we learn with snape's memories [14:47] <jaimedanser> But Jo may have meant it that way [14:47] <DumbleDebbie> I think it was Doge's way of conveying Dumbledore's heart [14:48] <HeliumHead> just an ironic coincidence [14:48] <Shard> That DD has one [14:48] <vertigo_on_high> probably helium [14:48] *** SiriusGirl79 has quit [Bye] [14:48] <Eleanora> yeah Doge always saw the good side of Dumbledore [14:48] <Oddment> ok, we nailed this one... [14:48] <DumbleDebbie> as a good friend would [14:48] <jaimedanser> lol, yea [14:48] <futureweasley> Draco's Dark Mark scarred him as surely as Doge's disease. What did we learn about his childhood that helped Albus befriend Doge and not give up on Draco? (Cloudpic) [14:48] <blue4t_> I think he learned that everyone has some good and bad in them. [14:49] <Spectre> Have to go, great chat smile Bye everyone! [14:49] <DumbleDebbie> that people, even one's that have made horrible choices, are redeemable [14:49] *** Spectre has quit [Bye] [14:49] *** vertigo_on_high has quit [Bye] [14:49] <Aislinn> I think that Dumbledore cared about people, almost as much as Harry. [14:49] <Questauthor> I think that showed DD that people can be saved, redeemed [14:49] <Shard> I think he learned that everyone deserves a chance to proove themselves [14:49] <Shard> nd thus we got Lockhart because of that [14:49] <jaimedanser> I think it was that Dumbledore cared about people and how they were inside [14:49] <Eleanora> He sees beyond the surface [14:49] <Oddment> well, the only thing we know about Albus before he met Doge, was the Ariana story [14:49] *** Eleanora has quit [Bye] [14:49] <Aislinn> Certainly his experience with his sister gave him empathy for people with problems. [14:49] <jaimedanser> not how the looked on the outside [14:50] <DumbleDebbie> good point jaime [14:50] <MrMcGonagall> I think DD did always have a kind nature. [14:50] <tinkertime> by recognizing his own tranformation, he was more able to give others that opportunity [14:50] <blue4t_> I think it's what made him such a good headmaster. [14:50] <fawkes28> i think so too, Aislinn [14:50] <DumbleDebbie> he did have a strong empathic streak [14:50] <Amontillada> So right, blue4t! [14:50] <Questauthor> Having worked with the disabled population I can tell you that a lot of family members "rise" above because they KNOW what its like not to be "normal" [14:50] <Aislinn> exactly quest [14:51] <jaimedanser> Questauthor-YEP biggrin [14:51] <Questauthor> They tend to empathize better, and seek beyond any obvious limitations [14:51] <NimbusFlyer> I agree, Mr. McG--and I think he struggled unitl the end to keep growing [14:51] <Oddment> good pt quest [14:51] <Aislinn> and he had personal experience, living with Ariana [14:51] <charvi> hey sorry to interrupt u all,bt i am amazed by the way u all r chatting away... [14:51] <Questauthor> exactly, Aislinn [14:51] <charvi> this shows hw mch u r into HP book [14:51] <LillianJames> You're right, Quest--especially siblings [14:51] *** ravenclawgirl34 has joined #lounge [14:51] <fawkes28> and Dumbledore knew he was different - in some ways, he was an outsider as well [14:51] <tinkertime> true nimbus - it was not easy for Albus [14:51] <Oddment> charvi... it's pretty fast moving, isn't it? [14:51] <jaimedanser> true, fawkes [14:52] <Questauthor> And DD knows that different is always "bad" [14:52] <Questauthor> Unlike Voldemort [14:52] <charvi> yes it is [14:52] <futureweasley> Doge counted himself as one of Albus' closest friends. Did Dumbledore have any close friends? [14:52] <Shard> I think so [14:52] <Questauthor> The portraits in the office [14:52] <JaneMarple9> only doge [14:52] <Questauthor> Minerva [14:52] *** ravenclawgirl34_ has joined #lounge [14:52] <fawkes28> yes and no [14:52] <Oddment> heheh quest smile [14:52] <blue4t_> I think he did, but maybe from his point of view he didn't? [14:52] <charvi> this is my first time here & i am amazed [14:52] *** Snitch2006 has joined #lounge [14:52] <Shard> DD was close to many ppl even if he didn't tell them everthjing about hilsef [14:52] <DumbleDebbie> at his age, many of them may have died [14:52] <Questauthor> I think he had close professional friends [14:52] <NimbusFlyer> well said, Fawkes [14:52] <tinkertime> no - i do not think he did - after grindewald he isolated himself [14:52] <HeliumHead> no [14:52] <jaimedanser> Yes, but I think Doge may have been the only one [14:52] <JaneMarple9> i think he was the closest to doge [14:52] <Shard> I believe he even said Slughorn was a close friend [14:52] <Aislinn> yes, fawkes, I agree [14:52] <Questauthor> but not many close personal ones [14:52] <DumbleDebbie> but yes, I do think he did [14:52] <JaneMarple9> and perhaps minevra [14:53] <Amontillada> Right, DumbleDebbie. He had few peers by the time of HP [14:53] <Questauthor> I think he kept a f ine line between him and others [14:53] <DumbleDebbie> he learned young to invest in people, and that's where his heart and his treasure was [14:53] <Questauthor> didn't want another Grindewald [14:53] <LillianJames> Definitely Minerva [14:53] <Aislinn> He made connections, but trust was an issue with him, in terms of really trusting and making connections with others [14:53] <Oddment> Dd never married -- that tells you something about his ablity to get close to people [14:53] <fawkes28> I think he saw Harry as a close friend - because to some degree Harry knew him better than most and at times even seemed like an equal [14:53] <Questauthor> I can see that, Fwakes [14:53] <JaneMarple9> maybe fawkes [14:53] <jaimedanser> fawkes-yes [14:53] <NimbusFlyer> I think he was close to people in different ways--Harry, Snape, Rosmerta, Minerva, Aruthr and Molly, Lupetc [14:53] <jaimedanser> I think he did [14:53] <blue4t_> Dumbledore probably felt he could relate better to Harry (although that doesn't mean spilling secrets). [14:53] <JaneMarple9> but he still didn't tell harry everything [14:53] <Questauthor> But I think he saw himself as an island fighting Voldemort in many ways [14:53] <tinkertime> I don't see him being close to anyone - he always kept things hidden [14:53] <Snitch2006> yes, when he said in HBP. "I'm with you." [14:53] <jaimedanser> I think Dumbledore was pretty close to Lupin, too [14:53] <Questauthor> and Harry was a close by island but there was still a gulf between them [14:54] <Amontillada> He didn't tell anyone everything, but he showed them different parts of himself [14:54] <Questauthor> He kept himself apart in many ways [14:54] <charvi> i better leave now,have fun chatting away [14:54] <fawkes28> i think he had very few true friends but a multitude of aquaintances [14:54] <NimbusFlyer> But he always held a little back for protection--Did you notice he wrote "hermione JEAN Granger" in his will [14:54] <LillianJames> one can have close friends without necessarily telling them everything always [14:54] <jaimedanser> But Doge was probably his only childhood friend [14:54] <tinkertime> he cared for people - but to say they were close friends?? i just don't see it [14:54] *** charvi left #lounge [Leaving] [14:54] <DumbleDebbie> that would fit his personality type Fawkes, to a T [14:54] <Questauthor> HAve to go, folks, thanks for the wonderful chat! [14:55] <Amontillada> Another reason he may have lost childhood friends in the first Voldemort war [14:55] <Oddment> lots of mutual respect, little true closeness [14:55] <futureweasley> OK all, sorry, we didn't get to chapter 3 today! We'll pick up at Chapter 3 next week, same time! Here's this week's last question!! [14:55] <futureweasley> Why didn't Rita come forward with her lovely book while Dumbledore was alive? (Rooftop Garden) [14:55] <futureweasley> bye QuestAuthor [14:55] <tinkertime> she didn't have the guts [14:55] <fawkes28> because she feared Dumbledore [14:55] <blue4t_> It sells better when he's dead? ;) [14:55] <Oddment> easy -- she was a cowardly git smile [14:55] <DumbleDebbie> she didn't want anyone to rebutt anything she said [14:55] <NimbusFlyer> Bawk-bawk-bawk bawk! [14:55] <fawkes28> and didnt want to deal with his wrath [14:55] *** Questauthor has quit [Bye] [14:55] <tinkertime> heheh nimbus [14:55] <DumbleDebbie> yes, oddment, cowardly git fits perfectly [14:55] <fawkes28> she is definitely not a Gryffindor [14:55] <jaimedanser> she feared DD [14:55] <DumbleDebbie> blood-sucking opportunist [14:56] <HeliumHead> he couldn't counter anything she said [14:56] <fawkes28> nice, Debbie [14:56] <Oddment> LOL at all of us smile [14:56] <NimbusFlyer> "flapping arms liek wings* [14:56] *** hermeeownee has quit [Ping timeout] [14:56] <DumbleDebbie> biggrin [14:56] <Shard> Because Rita is a coward [14:56] <Aislinn> we don't know exactly when she got the information [14:56] <Amontillada> I'll bet her House has disowned her by now [14:56] <JaneMarple9> i'd say rita was a typical slytherin [14:56] <tinkertime> i think we are holding back on how we really feel about her smile [14:56] <Shard> True Aislinn [14:56] <futureweasley> It's like rappers or other musicians who release music posthumusly [14:56] <jaimedanser> and it sells better if he's dead I think [14:56] <blue4t_> Maybe she never thought of the idea until he died? [14:56] *** ravenclawgirl34 has quit [Bye] [14:56] <bemused> much more profit in it after his death! [14:56] <Amontillada> Would even the Slytherins want to claim her? [14:56] <Shard> But it is sort of liek speaking ill of the dead when tney can't speak out about themselves [14:56] <fawkes28> yes, it does, jaime [14:56] <JaneMarple9> laugh [14:56] <MrMcGonagall> I think she'd been collecting tidbits for awhile to use when the time was right. [14:56] <DumbleDebbie> I think she had it written before he died blue [14:56] <futureweasley> it will sell better because the public want for information has been peeked [14:56] <DumbleDebbie> that's how she got it out so quickly [14:57] <blue4t_> Oh, OK, well there goes that theory. ;) [14:57] <fawkes28> she was like a vulture just waitinfg for him to die [14:57] <Amontillada> She was just waiting for him to die! [14:57] <fawkes28> That's how Rita rolls [14:57] *** ravenclawgirl34_ has quit [Bye] [14:57] <futureweasley> snap!! [14:57] <futureweasley> lol [14:57] <Shard> man what a witch [14:57] <futureweasley> that is totally how Rita rolls [14:57] <Oddment> newspapers do the same thing in RL -- they have obits ready to go [14:57] <HeliumHead> seems like she got a lot by using veritaserum on Bathilda [14:57] <DumbleDebbie> lol shard [14:57] <fawkes28> hehehe [14:57] <NimbusFlyer> Yep--she's probably collecting harry mud to sling as we speak [14:57] <MrMcGonagall> Rita is exactly the type to speak ill of the dead, because that's the only way she could get away with it. [14:57] <jaimedanser> urgh I hate Rita [14:57] <Shard> Oh you know she is [14:57] <Shard> and probably one for Snape as well [14:57] <blue4t_> Does veritaserum work properly on someone who's gone senile? [14:57] <Amontillada> Because the dead won't come back just to argue with her! [14:57] <Shard> Snape: Siant or Sinner [14:58] <Shard> ? [14:58] <jaimedanser> bahaha Shard [14:58] <DumbleDebbie> she probably addled what little was left of Bathilda's mind rooting through it for dirt [14:58] <Oddment> good q blue... and does it work on the dead? smile [14:58] <HeliumHead> well enough for her purposes [14:58] <blue4t_> haha [14:58] <DumbleDebbie> eww Oddment [14:58] <NimbusFlyer> Oh man--Shard--and she''ll probably make another mint! [14:59] <Oddment> i could see Snape giving v-serum to Nick... [14:59] <blue4t_> I thought maybe Skeeter had wrong info because Bagshot was senile. I don't know after reading the entire book, though. [14:59] <DumbleDebbie> I hope she gets paid in leprechaun gold LOL [14:59] <jaimedanser> Dumble-ME TOO [14:59] <Aislinn> It's been a great chat, folks! Thanks for coming [14:59] <futureweasley> well, everyone...this is the end to today's chat. thanks for joining us, and we hope to see you again soon [14:59] <jaimedanser> laugh [14:59] <Shard> Oh yeah you know Rita will make a bundle writting about dead people who can't fight back. I guess Hermione's lesson didn't sink in lol [14:59] <MrMcGonagall> This has been a great chat! Thanks everybody! [14:59] <blue4t_> Rita's too thick headed. [14:59] <HeliumHead> bye, thanks [15:00] *** DumbleDebbie left #lounge [] [15:00] <NimbusFlyer> Thanks, A and our chat team for another great one! [15:00] <blue4t_> Great chat. Thanks! [15:00] <Shard> bye bye [15:00] <tinkertime> thanks as always Leaky Mods - this is great fun! [15:00] *** blue4t_ has quit [Bye] [15:00] <jaimedanser> thanks y'all! [15:00] *** Shard has quit [Bye] [15:00] <JaneMarple9> ((((Boothers)))) [15:00] <fawkes28> Thanks for coming!! [15:00] <futureweasley> hasta la bye-bye [15:00] <Aislinn> see you all soon [15:00] <bemused> bye! [15:00] <Oddment> see ya round the boards, all [15:00] *** tinkertime left #lounge [Leaving] [15:00] *** JaneMarple9 has quit [Bye] [15:00] <jaimedanser> great chat! BYE!! Se y'all on the lounge [15:00] <futureweasley> see you soon! [15:00] *** bemused has quit [Bye] [15:00] *** Oddment has quit [Bye] [15:00] *** jaimedanser has quit [Bye] [15:00] *** Amontillada has quit [Bye] [15:00] *** NimbusFlyer has quit [Bye] [15:01] *** Snitch2006 has quit [Bye] [15:01] *** HeliumHead has quit [Bye] [15:01] *** LillianJames has quit [Bye] This post has been edited by Aislinn: Aug 18 2007, 02:37 PM |
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