Revised Editions of the HP Books, My literary critique shows a need for revisions of the books |
May 5 2009, 05:29 PM
Post
#141
|
|
Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie![]() ![]() Posts: 293 Joined: 12:20pm March 17, 2006 Location: Utah, USA |
...is that the exact intricate nature of the magic working between Voldemort and Harry is not necessarily fully explained. I don't really think it could be, and I don't think it needs to be. Personally, I like that the exact nature of the magical connections in the stories have some mystery to them. I think the King's Cross chapter is amazing, but I don't think it answers everything. And I like that. It allows my imagination to form my own ideas, which is a wonderful part of reading fiction. Magic is mysterious. The magic at work in Harry, in Dumbledore, in Voledmort is mysterious. I don't see that as a cop-out. I don't want a mathematical proof showing how it all works. But that's just me. I'm not saying everyone HAS to be happy with this answer. But I do not think it is lazy or sloppy writing at all EP I just want say that I totally agree with your opinion that exact nature of the magical connections have some mystery remain to them. In fact, it reminds me a lot of Star Wars, I like the original trilogy, and I like the prequels to a degree... but one thing that disappointed me beyond anything in the prequels was that The Force was given an explination on where it comes from, that some organism was responsible for what had been this very mystical thing. That explination ruined some of the magic of the original trilogy for me. Do I still watch them? Yes, I do... I just try to look beyond that annoying little thing as best as I can, and I just really, really wish that The Force hadn't been given an explination, I was much happier with the mystery. Also, it was questioned as to who killed Voldemort if it wasn't Harry (as it was done is such a way as that "blood was not on his hands")... I'm sorry, but to me that is the total irony (I think that's the word I want) of the situation. Voldemort killed Voldemort. It was his own foolishness and pride that resulted in his own downfall. He was warned by Harry that there was still a chance and he brushed it aside, resulting in his own killing curse rebounding upon him AGAIN. Are there flaws in the book? Yes... I have yet to read book/series that doesn't have some flaws. Do the flaws detract from my enjoyment of the series? Heck no. This series has it's place of honor at the top of my bookshelf, and I reread them as often as my time will allow. I hope I made sense in my post (I apologize if I didn't), my brain has been kind of mush all day...which hasn't made the best day at work *lol* This post has been edited by SilverDragoness: May 5 2009, 05:34 PM -------------------- **Silver Dragoness**
My sister's book: "Fingerprints" (Helix Series: Book 1) by R.C. Lewis (Genre: Young Adult Sci-Fi/Fantasy). Please "Back" it if you like it! |
May 5 2009, 05:31 PM
Post
#142
|
|
Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes![]() Posts: 49 Joined: 1:58pm December 4, 2008 |
In regards to Harry not being an exceptional wizard...He was clearly one of the most talented wizards in Hogwarts from his 4th year on. Besides the patronus, he learned a lot of DADA and charms that no other student in the school would know. He was as talented as the legitimate Triwizard Champion for Hogwarts. Once in his 5th year, he was teaching DADA to 7th years. Once Harry saw that there was a practical use to a spell, he put his all into it and mastered it better than the other students. He's able to articulate to them what it takes to make spells work better than any DADA teacher they ever had. He's probably even more talented than his OWLs reflect. In charms for example, some of the spells he learned for the TriWizard tournament were probably beyond OWL level and thus wouldn't be tested. Hermoine, who's obsessively intellectual, seemed to learn every spell possible. But Harry's not like that. He's not going to learn a spell until he thinks it's practical. And that doesn't make him lazy; it makes him practical, and there's an important difference. A lazy person wouldn't bother to learn a spell even if he thought it was practical. I agree 100%. Moreover, if you look at the way Harry took his exams a lot of what he learned came from action (E.G. - him remembering about polyjuice potion from the time he brewed and used it). This suggests that it is very hard to compare Hermoine and Harry's drive based on school exams as an academic school environment seemed to cater to Hermoine's strengths directly and not Harry's. If all their lessons had been taught in a way that required using magic to solve problems, such as the way Lupin taught DADA, I think this would have favored Harry's learning style more and he may have challenged Hermoine for top marks in more of their classes. As far as Harry not having exceptional abilities, one cannot forget that he is only 17 years old. By book 7 he seemed to be able to fight on the same level as many of the death eaters, excluding a couple of remarkable wizards who were much older than him and who had much more time to hone their skills. I would find it highly implausible if Harry had been able to gain the skill set to defeat Voldemort in a duel in seven years of basic education. It is true that he could have gotten private lessons that could have helped him, but he would still have been required to learn the basics first, so private lessons probably would have had to wait until the point he started them any way. Another thing to consider is that Crabbe was able to produce Fiend Fire, but that he could not control it. Harry did not know that particular spell, but I would not call him less of a wizard for it. Instead, Harry knew how to control and solve problems with his magic, which I think shows a lot more ability than knowing some additional spells. I would even rather have Harry at my side in some situations than Hermoine for this reason. |
May 5 2009, 06:30 PM
Post
#143
|
|
Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher![]() ![]() Posts: 168 Joined: 6:47am April 30, 2009 Location: Gandalf's Chin |
One of my biggest questions of the series, and in my opinion, never answered, is,"Did Harry have another level of protection by virtue of him being a horcrux"? The simple answer is no, he doesn't. Hermione explains that what makes a horcrux so difficult to destroy is the strong enchantments that are put on it. Harry has no such enchantments because he was never deliberately made into a horcrux. Actually, Harry's extra layer of protection does exist, for Harry--not Voldy's Horcrux. It's why Dumbledore was so happy in book 4 that Voldy used Harry's blood to reconstitute his proper physical form. Having Harry's blood is like having a bit of his soul which means that Voldy is a sort of Horcrux for Harry as DE and myself have already pointed out. That is why Harry has to PROACTIVELY allow Voldemort to try and kill him, and why Voldy's killing curse didn't work on him in book 7. And as Roonwit (quoted above) points out, not having any protective Horcrux Charms makes Voldy's bit of soul vulnerable to a killing curse. This bit is interesting for another reason too. Just as Horcruxes (bits of soul) need Horcrux Charms to make them Proper Horcruxes, So does the Deeper Magic of the Self-Sacrifice invoked by Lily Potter. In other words, she invoked this Deeper Magic which is why Harry is the only Wizard (known) to survive the killing curse. When Harry intentionally attempts to die to protect his friends he also invokes Deeper Magic. In other words it isn't just Self-Sacrifice--it is Self-Sacrifice plus INTENT (Magic works in Rowling's books by the strength of one's intentions. Anyone can die and say "please don't kill my son," but not everyone can form the intense intention to make the charm work during their final moments. This is why Voldy's spells don't work properly during the final onslaught. His silencing charms are easily broken. Harry is thus able to protect Mrs Weasly from Voldy's killing curse with a shield charm which would normally be ineffective against Avada Kedavra. The shield charm was undoubtedly unnecessary to protect Mrs Weasly at that point--but it at least prevented Voldy from creating more unintentional Horcruxes. Next, the fact that Voldemort had a wand that owed it's allegiance to Harry gives Harry an advantage in their final duel. Thus, when their two spells meet in the middle (as they do when Harry has the advantage of the twin cores in Book 4) Harry's advantage wins the day. Plus the fact that Harry is actually a very powerful wizard, as seen in Book 3 when Harry's Patronus dispels at least 100 dementors. Even Mrs Snape's Hubby states that only an extremely powerful wizard could have produced such a strong Patronus. Finally, for all those that can't follow a complex story, or are too lazy to try This post has been edited by Gandalf's Beard: May 5 2009, 07:06 PM
Reason for edit: Edited by Pleione to fix quote tags. :)
-------------------- "It is like a finger pointing at the moon. don't pay attention to the finger or you will miss all that Heavenly Glory" -- Bruce Lee
|
May 5 2009, 07:14 PM
Post
#144
|
|
Being Eaten by the Pea Soup![]() ![]() Posts: 19 Joined: 3:04pm April 4, 2009 Location: King's Cross |
QUOTE When Harry intentionally attempts to die to protect his friends he also invokes Deeper Magic. In other words it isn't just Self-Sacrifice--it is Self-Sacrifice plus INTENT Exactly. This is the crux of it. The defenders of Hogwarts may be fighting knowing there is a chance they may be killed, a chance they are indeed willing to take, but Harry willingly and actively intends to die. He meant to let Voldemort kill him. This is what evokes the Deeper Magic that protects the defenders of Hogwarts from Lord Voldemort. This post has been edited by Hallows not Horcruxes: May 5 2009, 07:14 PM -------------------- "There will come a time after my death - do not argue, do not interrupt - there will come a time when Lord Voldemort will seem to fear for the life of his snake."
|
May 6 2009, 03:47 AM
Post
#145
|
|
Stocking Snitches at Quality Quidditch Supplies![]() ![]() Posts: 682 Joined: 6:54pm August 3, 2008 Location: New York, NY ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
QUOTE What? I'm actually surprised and disappointed in you Ms Snape. We could say this about literally everything in the books. Harry wasn't really a great flyer, JKR just gave him this gift. Harry wasn't really brave, JKR just gave him this trait. Are you gonna take away Hermione's or Percy's great results too. Harry earned those results through a decent level of ability and a great deal of work in his 5th year. He put little effort into some of his classes in his first four years. But when he had to learn something, and made a determined effort he could. In his OWL year, he did this. That's different, though. Harry's words and actions are what make up his character. But his OWL grades don't reflect anything that Harry actually said or did. For an example, let's use the end of PoA, where Harry produces the mega-Patronus (as wickedboy calls it But his OWL grades are not a direct result of anything Harry says or does. Sure, we saw him studying. But we never see Harry's actual exams. We are given a few of his HoM and Astronomy exam questions, but, for the most part, we don't know what the test questions were, and we certainly don't know what Harry's answers were. And I seriously doubt J.K. knows either. I'm sure she didn't waste her time writing up actual exams, and then writing in "Harry's" answers to the questions. Instead, she just decided what his grades were. It wasn't a totally arbitrary decision, because it was based on Harry's prior performance in the books. She couldn't have decided that he gets all Os, because that wouldn't have been believable. But still, the grades weren't a direct result of anything Harry did. They were the grades J.K. wanted him to have. QUOTE JKR shows us and tell us repeatedly in the books that Dumbledore never wanted Harry to become like him, because he said himself that his search of power and immortality through the Hallows was a colossal mistake all their last conversation in DH is about showing that DD always wanted Harry to refuse the power of the Hallow, the temptation of power, and by doing so become the greater man. Dumbledore says to him at the end of DH that Harry has shown to be the better man precisely because he resisted the lure of that immense power, because he chose Horcrux over Hallows, because when he finally had the Elder Wand, who would have made him (as you seem to want) the most powerful wizard in the world, he chose to refuse its power and repaired his old, ordinary wand instead. This apparently is what you can't seem to understand: the search for absolute power is not the message of this series, or JKR would have made Harry keep the Elder wand and become the annoying Gary-stu, perfect superhero that you seem to want him to be. Harry was never meant to become a second Dumbledore, because Dumbledore regretted forever his choices, his ambition for power and the tragedies it brought him. But DD wasn't searching for power and immortality when he put on the ring. He just wanted to see his sister. Again, this is why Daniel Hemmens says that in J.K.'s world, passivity is the highest virtue, and ambition is a sin (the full, 4-part article can be found at http://ferretbrain.com/themes/3?from=0 ): JK Rowling has stated on a number of occasions that, if she were to join Hogwarts, she would want to be sorted into Gryffindor, because she values bravery above all things. I genuinely believe this. I also believe that JK Rowling has a really messed up definition of "bravery". In the final book of the series it is revealed that the Invisibility Cloak, which Harry has carried around since book one, is in fact the greatest of the Deathly Hallows. Its true glory, Dumbledore explains in the final chapter, is that it can "protect others as well as the wearer." Why that is more true of the Cloak than the Wand (which can presumably be used for shield charms as well as killing curses) I will never know. I do, however, think it is very telling that JK Rowling's great hero possesses, as his defining quality, invisibility. The original invisible man is driven slowly mad by his condition. Of course it's a slightly different situation, since Griffin's condition is irreversible, whereas Harry can put the cloak on or take it off as he pleases. However, the central point of the original Invisible Man story is that to be invisible is to lose all sense of identity, all contact with the world, and all need to face the consequences of your actions. This image (or perhaps non-image) resonates throughout fiction. The invisible man is no man at all. Yet for Rowling, invisibility is a hero's virtue. This becomes even more interesting when we realise that as well as having the power to become physically invisible, Harry is "invisible" in many other ways as well. His very lack of personality, of drive or motivation, is held as his greatest and most admirable virtue. This strange situation goes right back to the first book. In Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, Quirrel is unable to find the stone, because when he looks into the Mirror of Erised, all he sees is himself handing the stone over to Voldemort. The mirror spies into his mind, and determines his true motivation for wanting the stone, and finds him lacking. Harry, however, looks into the mirror, and sees himself finding the stone. Dumbledore later explains that "only one who wished only to find the stone, find it and not use it" would be able to pass that particular test. Now by itself, there's nothing wrong with that. It's a standard children's fantasy setup: the magical doohickey looks into your heart and sees that you are Good and True and Pure, and you win. In the context of the wider series, however, it sets a strange precedent. Harry is able to find the Philosopher's Stone because he has no motivation for looking for it in the first place, and this continues throughout the series, and is singled out as the quality which makes Harry a "better man" than the other characters. Throughout the series, the most noble reason for any course of action is no reason at all. Harry seeks the Deathly Hallows because he thinks it might maybe be what Dumbledore was expecting him to do. And according to Dumbledore, had he sought them for any other reason, he would not have been worthy to find them. When Dumbledore tried to unite the Hallows, he was actually trying to achieve something, and therefore proved himself unworthy. Harry spends seven years doing what he thinks other people might expect him to. He's utterly passive. The piece de resistance in this directionless saga is, of course, Harry's "sacrifice" at the "climax" of the seventh book. Having seen in the pensieve that Dumbledore intended for him to be killed by Voldemort, he immediately decides to lay down and die. Rowling, apparently, views this as the height of courage. The act of a True Gryffindor. I view it as utterly craven. JK Rowling seems to view "courage" as the quality which allows you to accept the world as you find it. Now if we were talking about things which genuinely were beyond your control, that would be one thing, but Potter is a hero, and the protagonist of the stories. He is supposed to be changing the world (and according to Rowling's later interviews, he totally does, after the books end). Harry goes willingly to his death, not to protect anybody, not to save the world, not to destroy Voldemort, but because somebody tells him he's meant to. It's pathetic. But in the afterlife, Dumbledore heaps praise upon him, and tells him that he has become the true "Master of Death" because he killed himself on instruction. The flip-side to Harry's passive Gryffindor "courage" is of course the "ambition" of House Slytherin. Many fans were deeply upset that the Slytherins all abandoned Hogwarts in the final fight: "they were supposed to be ambitious, not evil" is a common complaint. To Rowling, however, ambition is evil in and of itself. Actual desires, actual motivations, are reprehensible things. No action is pure unless it is motivated by a nonspecific sense of duty. I'm currently reading Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy (the ones about the assassin). It's interesting to compare Fitz unwavering loyalty to the Farseer line, and Harry's unwavering loyalty to Dumbledore. Fitz's absolute loyalty is presented as much as a failing as a virtue. While laudable, his utter devotion to a single master gets in the way of his developing real human relationships. In many ways, Fitz is prevented from becoming a complete human being by his dedication to his master. Harry, on the other hand, shows a similar blind loyalty, not only to Dumbledore, but increasingly to a spurious and nebulous sense of "should be" and this is what makes him a "better man" than Dumbledore. JK Rowling glorifies her hero for having no personality, and tells us that his blind following of the plot makes him a great man. ...In the "Tale of the Three Brothers," the ones who wind up dead are the ones who try to actually achieve something with their "Hallows". The last brother, the one who makes it through, the one we are supposed to admire, is the one who spends his entire life sitting under an invisibility cloak doing nothing. I've already pointed out how passive Harry is, how he just reacts to things, how he doesn't have a consistent plan. I've complained about the fact that he's basically spent this entire book sitting in a tent doing nothing, but it becomes increasingly apparent through the book that JK Rowling views inactivity as a virtue and ambition as a sin. The implied morality of all this makes me genuinely uncomfortable, but I think I'll come back to that after I've finished the main article. Walnut Wand Carrier takes it one step further with her brilliant post (#136): I thouroughly agree with Linnea, Dan Hemmens, Migdalin, and madbrad on Harry, mainly on the latter's incredible, almost absurd passivity. It is true that he hasn't been affected by anything whatsoever throughout his entire life. And this, precisely, is what makes it impossible for him to be genuinly portrayed as both a hero (obviously), and also as a genuine anti-hero. An anti-hero is a person, like Siddharta as portrayed for example in Hermann Hesse's Siddharta (I don't know if you're into german litterature much, so sorry if you aren't, but as I am not so much into english litterature, I can't really give examples from there), who, only after he's gone through all those deeply human (in a way), mundane, profanic, life-savouring, egoistic desires and lived through them very extremely, gets to finally understand, at some point, after this long and difficult inner process, that there's simply nothing in all that he's seen and done without being able to stop himself from doing and wanting, and only then he's able to truly innerly leave those things and be truly, genuinly modest and so on, in short: to be truly anti-heroic. A person, on the other hand, who, like Harry, hasn't EVER had ANY true or lived desires at all towards certain things, can't be called a true anti-hero for not desiring those things he had already never ever desired, never even thought about at all, or even known that they existed at all. Not desiring something you already have never desired in the slightest (for example the Stone in book1), isn't heroic or anti-heroic, but it's utterly trivial to portray someone like that as being incredibly anti-heroic. Harry's supposed anti-heroic inner state (the one of the Forest, and already(!!! Yes, exactly!!! Harry doesn't crave absolute power and glory, and then ultimately forsake it for humbler aspirations. Rather, he has no aspirations, no desire to accomplish or achieve anything, in the first place. And this makes him a great man? No, it makes him an apathetic loser. What, exactly, was so sinful about DD's desire to see his sister again? It's not like he wanted the ring so he could raise an army of the dead and conquer the world. He wanted it for humble, honest reasons. Yet apparently, that too is a sin. Trying to achieve anything, apparently, is a sin. Unless your ambition is to destroy evil and make the world a better place. Then it's OK. But having any kind of personal ambitions, wanting to achieve success for yourself, is a horrid, depraved thing. QUOTE Honestly, I'm a teenager, and I only have one real ambition. I want to be a journalist. Okay, maybe there's a part of me that wants to be lawyer simply because journalism is a dying art and I should have a more steady back up plan, but all my schooling and studies are going to be focused on those potential careers. I've wanted to be either a journalist or a lawyer from the time I was eight, and I still do. I see myself as having a lot of ambition, and I don't think the number of potential careers you want should have anything to do with ambition or personality. Some people will change their life goals frequently, others won't. It doesn't demonstrate a lack of character. I commend Harry for striving to do anything, seeing as most other students never display an active interest in any career in the books. Yes, you're a teenager, and look how much time and effort you have obviously put into planning your future. Does Harry ever show signs of have any such plans? It's not the number of ambitions you have, it's the time and effort you spend thinking about and working on them. And Harry spends absolutely zero time thinking about his career, until Moody suggests he be an Auror. Has there ever been a teenager in existence who never gave his future one single thought, until the ripe old age of 14? QUOTE Well, typically the same general things make people feel the same way. If someone you love dies, you are sad. If you win a big sporting event, you're happy. If you're friend calls you a liar, you get upset. Harry conveys his feelings in a way that only Harry does. Harry tends to have a dramatic personality, and has no reserves in letting his emotions show. Lupin tends to be slower to anger and more of a peacemaker usually, Hermione cries when she's emotional, and Ron bottles things up. None of these are generic. But...yes, they are! And furthermore, we're not talking about how certain general things generally affect certain people. We're talking about how unique circumstances affect one distinct person in particular. A good character doesn't act "like a certain population of the world would act." Because a good character is a unique individual, not a generalization of how certain people usually act. QUOTE So when he sat in Dumbledore's office, wishing he wasn't a human any longer, or when he thought that he was a danger to everyone at Grimmauld Place, or when he inwardly is glad Ginny is not the crying sort of girl, or when he gets upset at Lupin for leaving his child, and instead of trying to talk it out yells at him like he hasn't yelled at anyone since Dumbledore about Snape, and then instantly regrets it, or when he thinks Dumbledore has betrayed him, these aren't real thoughts and feelings? No, they're not. Because -- except for the Lupin example -- they come from nowhere. They bear no relation to Harry's past experiences. People's behaviors and attitudes are a direct result of their life experiences. But nothing affects or changes Harry, and thus, his emotions and actions don't come from him. When you ask yourself, "Why? Why does Harry do that? Why does he feel that way?" there's never an answer in his past. His feelings seem arbitrarily assigned to him, instead of the result of anything in his past. And I think one of the main reasons for this is that Harry doesn't really have a past. Besides the Dursleys' neglect, and a handful of childhood experiences described in Books 1 and 5, Harry's past is a total blank. So there isn't much to base his present thoughts and actions on. Again, I ask: Does he have any beliefs and goals at the beginning of the series, that changed by the end? For that matter, does he have any beliefs or personal goals (not his career goal) at all? Is his outlook on life any different at the end of the series? In fact, what is his outlook on life? Does he have one? What aspects of his personality, exactly, show how he was affected by his time with the Dursleys, or by anything else? Are there any passages or quotes that display any particular world view, any set of beliefs and ideals, any personal desires or motivations? While its true anybody could have been given the protection Harry had, not anybody would have been able to sacrifice themselves the way Harry did. And, yes, Harry was able to return was based on protection that was given to him. But he still had the choice not to return. It was because he was Harry, because he loved everyone else, that he did return. The magic didn't force him to come back, it just gave him the option. And not every person would be brave enough to come back. How do we know that nobody else would have sacrificed themselves like Harry did? Furthermore, if Harry's only great ability is that he can willingly commit suicide on command...that's not very impressive. What alternative solution do you suggest exactly? From what he saw in "The Prince's Tale", he had to be killed for Voldemort to become mortal. There is no alternative method of destroying the piece of Voldemort's soul that is inside him. Sure, all this was based on Dumbledore's plan, which turned out to have a few twist in it. But Harry couldn't know any of this. He had trusted Dumbledore and his judgement for the last seven years. He knew him to be the epitome of wisdom and knowledge. I suggest that J.K. have written Harry to have a more active role in Book 7, instead of spending the whole book waiting around to be told what to do, and being saved/helped by miraculous luck, or other people's hard work. At the very least, I suggest J.K. have written the final chapters so that Harry himself works out that he's supposed to die, instead of needing Snape to simply tell him. Perhaps DD was able to figure out most of the solution, but needed Harry to put together the missing pieces. There's some more stuff I wanted to respond to, but...it's just too much right now. So, I'm sorry for ignoring some of you guys. I'll try to make it up in a later post. This post has been edited by Mrs_Linnea_Snape: May 6 2009, 09:34 PM |
May 6 2009, 12:04 PM
Post
#146
|
|
Gringotts Goblin Translator![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 1,237 Joined: 3:47pm November 27, 2006 Location: Dublin |
That's different, though. Harry's words and actions are what make up his character. But his OWL grades don't reflect anything that Harry actually said or did. For an example, let's use the end of PoA, where Harry produces the mega-Patronus (as wickedboy calls it But his OWL grades are not a direct result of anything Harry says or does. Sure, we saw him studying. But we never see Harry's actual exams. We are given a few of his HoM and Astronomy exam questions, but, for the most part, we don't know what the test questions were, and we certainly don't know what Harry's answers were. And I seriously doubt J.K. knows either. I'm sure she didn't waste her time writing up actual exams, and then writing in "Harry's" answers to the questions. Instead, she just decided what his grades were. It wasn't a totally arbitrary decision, because it was based on Harry's prior performance in the books. She couldn't have decided that he gets all Os, because that wouldn't have been believable. But still, the grades weren't a direct result of anything Harry did. They were the grades J.K. wanted him to have. Yeah, but we still have to accept them as his true OWL results. What do you want JKR to do, take us through every question in the exam and every answer Harry gives? Every single thing about the whole wizarding world comes from JKR. If it's in the books that Harry got an O, 5 Es, an A, a P and a D, then that's what he got. And if he got those results, then it's as a result of whatever intelligce he has and what study he put into it. QUOTE Yes, you're a teenager, and look how much time and effort you have obviously put into planning your future. Does Harry ever show signs of have any such plans? It's not the number of ambitions you have, it's the time and effort you spend thinking about and working on them. And Harry spends absolutely zero time thinking about his career, until Moody suggests he be an Auror. Has there ever been a teenager in existence who never gave his future one single thought, until the ripe old age of 14? I still don't understand what's wrong with this. When I was 14 all I thought about was enjoying myself. What's the big deal with a 14 year old not having any career plans? I didn't give any serious thought to what I wanted to do until I was about sixteen or seventeen, and most of my mates were the same. But when Harry did decide what he wanted to do with his life, he put enough effort into getting the grades that would allow him to do it. QUOTE No, they're not. Because -- except for the Lupin example -- they come from nowhere. They bear no relation to Harry's past experiences. People's behaviors and attitudes are a direct result of their life experiences. But nothing affects or changes Harry, and thus, his emotions and actions don't come from him. When you ask yourself, "Why? Why does Harry do that? Why does he feel that way?" there's never an answer in his past. His feelings seem arbitrarily assigned to him, instead of the result of anything in his past. And I think one of the main reasons for this is that Harry doesn't really have a past. Besides the Dursleys' neglect, and a handful of childhood experiences described in Books 1 and 5, Harry's past is a total blank. So there isn't much to base his present thoughts and actions on. Again, I ask: Does he have any beliefs and goals at the beginning of the series, that changed by the end? For that matter, does he have any beliefs or personal goals (not his career goal) at all? Is his outlook on life any different at the end of the series? In fact, what is his outlook on life? Does he have one? What aspects of his personality, exactly, show how he was affected by his time with the Dursleys, or by anything else? Are there any passages or quotes that display any particular world view, any set of beliefs and ideals, any personal desires or motivations? How do they not have any relation to Harry's past? Sirius dying caused Harry massive anguish. He had lost his parents when he was one year old. This completely changed his life. Now the man who was the nearest thing to a father figure he'd ever had was also dead. He'd experienced his parents' death, he'd suffered the pain of growing up without them, he'd seen Cedric die and Voldemort return to body. He was sick of feeling all this pain. Sick of losing loved ones. He didn't want to feel pain anymore. In Grimmauld Place he's worried about harming the others. We know Harry hates the though of putting other people in danger. Ron nearly died in PS helping him get the stone. In COS Ginny nearly dies when Voldemort uses her to lure Harry to the chamber. His parents had died trying to protect him. In GOF Cedric had died after Harry had insisted on him taking hold of the trophy with him. Then he had seemingly had some role in Arthur's near death, and he was worried, once again, about hurting a friend. And we saw this again when he didn't want to take Neville, Luna and Ginny to the ministry, or when he split up with Ginny at the end of HBP. He liked the fact that Ginny didn't cry alot. His first girlfriend had cried about ten times a day and Harry had never known how to deal with it or how to comfort her. I think there were a number of things about Harry's personality that came from his past. Some big things, some small things. He had a "saving people thing". This, I would put down to the fact that his parents were murdered when he was one year old. He was too young to do anything to protect the ones he loved back then. But when he did grow up, he refused to just let other people rescue his loved ones. He always had to act himself. He had grown up in a house run by a woman who was obsessed with cleanliness and order. The first time he goes to the Burrow, he immediately loves the mess, the disorder, the quirkiness. He had been bullied by Vernon and Dudley. He hated to see people being bullied. He told Neville to stand up for himself against Draco. He was devastated by the idea of his father bullying Snape. His parents died when he was one. He was obsessed with everything and anything to do with them. QUOTE I suggest that J.K. have written Harry to have a more active role in Book 7, instead of spending the whole book waiting around to be told what to do, and being saved/helped by miraculous luck, or other people's hard work. At the very least, I suggest J.K. have written the final chapters so that Harry himself works out that he's supposed to die, instead of needing Snape to simply tell him. Perhaps DD was able to figure out most of the solution, but needed Harry to put together the missing pieces. Ok, I thought you just meant he should have been more proactive after he saw Snape's memories in The Prince's Tale. That he should have gone off and found an alternative solution to destroy the piece of Voldemort's soul inside him. But yeah, I'd agree that I would have liked him to have known a bit more about what had to be done to destroy the horcruxes. I basically agree with what Ron's reasons for leaving Harry and Hermione halfway through the campign trip. |
May 6 2009, 01:39 PM
Post
#147
|
|
Ever So Excited!![]() Posts: 192 Joined: 10:58pm April 4, 2009 Location: Basking in the glow of live wrock... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I suggest that J.K. have written Harry to have a more active role in Book 7, instead of spending the whole book waiting around to be told what to do, and being saved/helped by miraculous luck, or other people's hard work. At the very least, I suggest J.K. have written the final chapters so that Harry himself works out that he's supposed to die, instead of needing Snape to simply tell him. Perhaps DD was able to figure out most of the solution, but needed Harry to put together the missing pieces. Ok, I thought you just meant he should have been more proactive after he saw Snape's memories in The Prince's Tale. That he should have gone off and found an alternative solution to destroy the piece of Voldemort's soul inside him. But yeah, I'd agree that I would have liked him to have known a bit more about what had to be done to destroy the horcruxes. I basically agree with what Ron's reasons for leaving Harry and Hermione halfway through the campign trip. Just quickly, I'll say that I, too, thought you meant he should have gone off and tried to do something else after The Prince's Tale, Mrs_Linnea_Snape, which I still think wasn't really an option. However I agree with both you and Wendall that I always wished he'd gotten more info about the horcruxes from Dumbledore (or someone) before having to set off to destroy them. There were actually a few times throughout the series I thought Dumbledore could have reasonably given Harry some more info or a better explanation of things. -------------------- ![]() **Thanks to Silviera for the awesome siggy!** "Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and, above all, those who live without love." |
May 6 2009, 03:02 PM
Post
#148
|
|
Cauldron Bottom Measurer![]() ![]() Posts: 127 Joined: 12:15pm February 19, 2009 |
The thing about Harry's walk into the Forest, is that he hasn't chosen it himself to do that, at no point whatsoever. He learns that this is what needs to be done, and just accepts it (however he may have felt then), and does it. But he never ever chose to do it, he just displays his feelings about this fact, about learning that he has to do it, but he doesn't actually choose to do it. He's merely executing it. He accepts that he's going to do it from the very first second of the revelation on, just like a machine. He then goes on to think about his feelings towards it (towards this fact, which he has already accepted, in fact, never NOT accepted, as this fact that needs to be executed), and about what he regrets about having to leave and so on, but he never has the tiniest impulse of "I won't do it". That is a ridiculous character-portrayal, imo. It is absurd. He simply doesn't go through any character-development at all, so as to be innerly able to face such a thing in the end. He just jumped into being having no interest in life whatsoever (to exagerate a bit
This post has been edited by WalnutWandCarrier: May 6 2009, 03:03 PM |
May 6 2009, 04:22 PM
Post
#149
|
|
One Half of the DDD![]() Posts: 8,475 Joined: 5:31pm August 30, 2006 Location: Siriusly Dreaming Somewhere ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
The thing about Harry's walk into the Forest, is that he hasn't chosen it himself to do that, at no point whatsoever. He learns that this is what needs to be done, and just accepts it (however he may have felt then), and does it. But he never ever chose to do it, he just displays his feelings about this fact, about learning that he has to do it, but he doesn't actually choose to do it. He's merely executing it. I would have to disagree with you WalnutWandCarrier, Harry does make his own informed choices. After Sirius's death, when he and Dumbledore are talking, well Harry is yelling more than talking, he tells Dumbledore "I DON'T CARE ... I'VE HAD ENOUGH, I'VE SEEN ENOUGH, I WANT OUT, I WANT IT TO END, I DON'T CARE ANY MORE" (JKR's capslock, not mine). Yes, he's angry but he does listen to what Dumbledore has to say and he could have done that and still chosen to walk away and do nothing but he felt he needed to avenge the deaths of his parents and Sirius. Just like most of us, Harry answers to his emotions rather than the demands of others. In Deathly Hallows Aberforth tries very hard to persuade Harry that he doesn't need to continue, he tells him to get as far away from Hogwarts as he can. Harry, however, explains that he can't leave, he has to carry on. He doesn't feel like that because he's been made to - "he had made his choice while digging Dobby's grave; he had decided to continue ... he had no desire to doubt again, he did not want to hear anything that would deflect him from his purpose" (bold is mine, not JKR's). By that point he knew exactly how dangerous it would be to continue, he had faced and defeated Voldemort on several occasions and people close to him had died but he made his own choice to continue. Harry made his own choices throughout the series from choosing to be in Gryffindor, rather than Slytherin when the Sorting Hat told him he would be helped to achieve greatness, to walking into the forest. He could have chosen to take Aberforth's advice and leave, he could have chosen to work with Voldemort and very probably become just as powerful, but instead he chose to sacrifice himself in order to save his friends. He wasn't obligated, he made an informed choice. This post has been edited by Dreamteam: May 6 2009, 04:27 PM -------------------- ![]() November's book is The Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!" |
May 6 2009, 04:39 PM
Post
#150
|
|
Cauldron Bottom Measurer![]() ![]() Posts: 127 Joined: 12:15pm February 19, 2009 |
@Dreamteam: Well, then, show me the passage in DH where Harry actually chooses to walk into the Forest ! He doesn't !! He even doesn't think something like "Well, of course I'll go". There's not the tiniest choosing sequence or hint at something like that there. DD tells him to do it via Snape's memories, and he goes without questioning anything, without choosing anything, because he has no personality of his own. He accepts his death from the moment of the memory-revelation on, he even doesn't "accept" it at any point, he merely learns about it from the memories. In fact, he's been a dead character all along.
|




May 5 2009, 05:29 PM














