Revised Editions of the HP Books, My literary critique shows a need for revisions of the books |
 May 6 2009, 04:41 PM
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#151
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Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic  Posts: 9,192 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK   |
QUOTE(enchantedphoenix @ May 6 2009, 07:39 PM)  However I agree with both you and Wendall that I always wished he'd gotten more info about the horcruxes from Dumbledore (or someone) before having to set off to destroy them. There were actually a few times throughout the series I thought Dumbledore could have reasonably given Harry some more info or a better explanation of things. I don't think you will find many people who would disagree with that. I can understand him holding back until Harry is able to get the memory so that Harry can have the full and accurate picture, but he could have said more about destroying them (or even just given Hermione access to the book she eventually thought to borrow from his collection).But I suspect Dumbledore finds it hard to trust others (after his experience with Gellert), and hard to relate to them properly. For example he handles Harry badly of his suspicions about Draco (unless he actually wanted Harry to keep pursuing his suspicions), because he doesn't appear to take them seriously. This post has been edited by roonwit: May 6 2009, 04:42 PM --------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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May 6 2009, 05:16 PM
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#152
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The Other Half of the DDD  Posts: 4,941 Joined: 10:10am March 16, 2007 Location: Marauding with Moony, Padfoot and Prongs |
QUOTE(WalnutWandCarrier @ May 6 2009, 10:39 PM) @Dreamteam: Well, then, show me the passage in DH where Harry actually chooses to walk into the Forest ! He doesn't !! He even doesn't think something like "Well, of course I'll go". There's not the tiniest choosing sequence or hint at something like that there. DD tells him to do it via Snape's memories, and he goes without questioning anything, without choosing anything, because he has no personality of his own. He accepts his death from the moment of the memory-revelation on, he even doesn't "accept" it at any point, he merely learns about it from the memories. In fact, he's been a dead character all along. I'm sorry, but, does there actually need to be a sentence describing the moment he chooses to go into the forest? I don't think so. I think the fact that he went is proof enough of his choice. He was described as being afraid of walking to his death, yet he made the choice to do it anyway. Just because we're not told in black and white of the exact moment, of the exact frame of mind he's in, doesn't mean there wasn't a choice to make. The fact that he got up, dusted himself off, walked out of the door and down to the forest clearly shows us he made a choice. Who was going to make him do it? No one but himself. He may have seen Dumbledore in Snape's memories saying what Harry had to do to defeat Voldemort, but he couldn't exactly come back and make Harry do it. Harry chose to act upon the information he witnessed. -------------------- |
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May 6 2009, 05:27 PM
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#153
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One Half of the DDD  Posts: 8,476 Joined: 5:31pm August 30, 2006 Location: Siriusly Dreaming Somewhere |
QUOTE(WalnutWandCarrier @ May 6 2009, 10:39 PM) @Dreamteam: Well, then, show me the passage in DH where Harry actually chooses to walk into the Forest ! He doesn't !! He even doesn't think something like "Well, of course I'll go". There's not the tiniest choosing sequence or hint at something like that there. DD tells him to do it via Snape's memories, and he goes without questioning anything, without choosing anything, because he has no personality of his own. He accepts his death from the moment of the memory-revelation on, he even doesn't "accept" it at any point, he merely learns about it from the memories. In fact, he's been a dead character all along. WalnutWandCarrier, I see the whole of Harry's walk, from the Headmaster's office out into the forest as his decision. He did feel that he had to die, not because someone else had told him that he must do that, but because he felt that it was the only way to save the people he loved. He could have walked away and left them to their fate but he didn't, he chose instead to sacrifice himself. Voldemort tries to say that Harry survived by accident and that Dumbledore was "pulling the strings". Harry's reply is "Accident, was it, when my mother died to save me? ... Accident when I decided to fight in that graveyard? Accident, that I didn't defend myself tonight, and still survived, and returned to fight again?" Harry chose not to defend himself, as he tells Voldemort "I was ready to die to stop you hurting these people ... I meant to, and that's what did it. I've done what my mother did. They're protected from you". Harry chose not to walk away, he chose to die in order to protect others and it worked, none of Voldemort's spells were working against them. Yes, Dumbledore had explained it all via the pensieve but it was Harry's choice to act on that information. Dumbledore couldn't make him do anything, because Dumbledore was no longer there. The final choice was left up to Harry and he took it. If Dumbledore had forced Harry to die, the magic wouldn't have worked and Voldemort's spells would have had an effect on the people. The very fact that those spells didn't work on them proves that it was Harry's free choice to walk into the forest and die, that's the whole point of the protection provided for Harry by his mother and provided for the people at Hogwarts by Harry. Its a magic produced only by choosing to die in order to protect another. This post has been edited by Dreamteam: May 6 2009, 06:00 PM --------------------  November's book is The Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!" |
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May 6 2009, 05:31 PM
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#154
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Keeper of the Keys  Posts: 2,275 Joined: 8:45am April 19, 2006 Location: Playing "Whack-a-Gnome" with Grawp |
Harry chooses to go into the forest on three separate occasions:
1) When he decides to abandon the hunt for the hallows and go after horcruxes after burying Dobby 2) When he is told to run , escape and flee the country by Aberforth just before entering Hogwarts Granted at the time of making the descision at these junctures he does not yet know he has decided to walk to his death, but the path was set and he went down it willingly, after being warned this would most likely be to his peril. 3) The fact that Harry got up and walked out the door and down to the forest is clearly indicative of making the decision: No-one rushes in, grabs him by the arms and drags him to Voldemort. He goes out, sets his affairs in order, giving Neville the job to kill Nagini and wishing he could say goodbye to Ginny, but not doing so as he knew that if he did she would try and stop him from doing what he intended to do. This is once again the difference between being dragged into the arena and walking in on your own: the result of you being there may be the same, but the difference is vast in showing bravery and determining to face your situation with dignity. -------------------- |
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May 6 2009, 05:45 PM
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#155
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Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower Posts: 3,900 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower  |
Also when Harry was in King's Cross limbo he had a choice of dying or returning to life. He choose to return to continue fighting Voldemort. He also got Neville in on the action by telling him to kill Nagini, thus ensuring that Voldemort would be killed no matter what.
--------------------  "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do." |
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May 6 2009, 05:53 PM
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#156
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Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic Posts: 9,192 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(WalnutWandCarrier @ May 6 2009, 10:39 PM) @Dreamteam: Well, then, show me the passage in DH where Harry actually chooses to walk into the Forest ! The consideration of that decision is really before he views Snape's memories when Harry is faced with the reality of what the battle so far has cost as he heads for the Headmaster's office. Indeed both Ron and Hermione are afraid Harry will sacrifice himself straight after Voldemort makes his offer. Snape's memories just make it easier to choose to do something that he was thinking of doing anyway.
-------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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May 6 2009, 07:40 PM
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#157
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Ever So Excited!  Posts: 192 Joined: 10:58pm April 4, 2009 Location: Basking in the glow of live wrock... |
Can I add to the "it was Harry's decision" some more?
 I think SnapesSister, Dreamteam, Rudius Hagrid, Shard, and Roonwit have all given very good explanations as to how it was Harry's choice to walk into the forest. No one forced him. He was afraid, but no one dragged him in. How bout this, too. I was just re-reading the snitch/resurrection stone scene (which, incidentally is one of the most heart-breaking scenes to me). After all the spirits appear and are surrounding Harry, there is this line:QUOTE "He knew that they would not tell him to go, that it would have to be his decision." (p. 700 DH, Scholastic, bold mine) And he proceeds to go. Really, is that not clear enough? --------------------  **Thanks to Silviera for the awesome siggy!** "Do not pity the dead, Harry. Pity the living, and, above all, those who live without love." |
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May 6 2009, 07:43 PM
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#158
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Leaky's Resident Borg Queen Posts: 11,519 Joined: 11:45am July 25, 2005 Location: in space, the final frontier . . . |
And really, Harry's been prepared to die right from SS/PS. Over and over again he's faced with his own demise, and he does well. That's not a good description of it, but he's not afraid of it. It's not that he would choose it for himself in other circumstances, but in this battle against evil, if he has to die, so be it. He'll go down fighting.
I don't think there needed to be a sentence prior to or as Harry was taking his walk that said he'd made the choice to die. That had already been done over and over again, and the scenes in DH cited by others just confirmed for us Harry's dedication to whatever--whatever--was necessary. This post has been edited by Seven of Nine: May 6 2009, 07:44 PM -------------------- "That's why he fought. That's why he lived again, and that was the answer to Tam's question. I fight because last time, I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong. I want to do it right this time" -- Rand |
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May 6 2009, 09:57 PM
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#159
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 6,834 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
QUOTE(WalnutWandCarrier @ May 6 2009, 05:39 PM) @Dreamteam: Well, then, show me the passage in DH where Harry actually chooses to walk into the Forest ! He doesn't !! He even doesn't think something like "Well, of course I'll go". There's not the tiniest choosing sequence or hint at something like that there. DD tells him to do it via Snape's memories, and he goes without questioning anything, without choosing anything, because he has no personality of his own. He accepts his death from the moment of the memory-revelation on, he even doesn't "accept" it at any point, he merely learns about it from the memories. In fact, he's been a dead character all along. You may want to re-read Chapter 34, "The Forest Again" where you'll see what Harry was going through and thinking Snape's memories in the pensieve only confirmed what Harry felt all along and that his job was to walk calmly into "Death's welcoming arms." And Harry was actually angry with Dumbledore and he felt betrayed (US edition, pages 692 and 693):"Dumbledore's betrayal was almost nothing. Of course there had been a bigger plan; Harry had simply been too foolish to see it, he realized that now." "And Dumbledore had known that Harry would not duck out, that he would keep going to the end, even though it was his end, because he had taken trouble to get to know him, hadn't he? Dumbledore knew, as Voldemort knew, that Harry would not let anyone else die for him now that he had discovered it was in his power to stop it" (bold mine and not the text version) It was Harry's choice to die; and Harry's choice alone and that's exactly what the message of the entire series teaches us; that it's our choices and not our abilities who make us who we are. I'm sorry that you didn't see that, and you continue to berate Harry's character and call him "dead". You contend that he doesn't accept anything, however, isn't the fact that he willingly faces his own death, well... acceptance? Isn't the whole walk to his death in the Forest, and the use of the Resurrection Stone proof enough of his own will to die? Lily was given a choice to walk away from Harry and let Voldemort kill him; Harry also had the choice to walk away from it all; both didn't; and both sacrificed themselves, evoking a magical sacrificial charm born out of tremendous love. This post has been edited by lirene: May 6 2009, 11:14 PM --------------------  |
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May 7 2009, 07:07 AM
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#160
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 127 Joined: 12:15pm February 19, 2009 |
Nothing of the previous posts prove anything about Harry ever chosing himself to die at all in the Forest - it all proves the contrary, in fact. He doesn't accept his death himself, Lirene, he accepts that that is the plan which, according to DD, has to be fulfilled. He blindly accepts the plan, not his death, and even less was he choosing it, but merely executing a plan which happened to involve his death. "The Forest Again"-Chapter is all about feelings towards his death (which he had already accepted ever since hearing about it merely because DD told him to do it - there's no sequence about having any reflection at all about his being supposed to die, which he accepts just like that, without the tiniest hesitation - and I don't need explicit sentences for things like that to be conveyed, but there isn't anything else neither), not about questioning whether or not he's gonna do it in the first place, and then choosing (=which would be a genuin choice then) to do it himself. And he hasn't gone through any inner death-preparation-development either throughout the series, because he has already in essentials been like that in book one, not wanting the Stone which makes you live (which is metaphorically very telling). In fact, he couldn't even have made a choice to die at all, because he was never drawn to life in the first place, he was always like that - like already dead - and it is therefore no achievement for him to die when he had already jumped into being never having cared about death at all, in the first place.
But I accept that we disagree on all that stuff. This post has been edited by WalnutWandCarrier: May 7 2009, 07:09 AM |
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