The Rights of Women, Part 3: Where's Feminism Now?, What's Your Definition of Feminism? |
 Oct 22 2009, 04:37 PM
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter Posts: 2,024 Joined: 4:38pm June 27, 2005   |
Good post to skip.
QUOTE Ah, but you can't look at it as just another chore to be performed. Sometimes it does feel that way, but when it does you need to change your thinking. Just that this requires both partners to be equal - which I guess is the first part of the thinking. Agree that it should never become an obligation but remain a mutually enjoyable activity. This would mean dealing with what is getting in the way of the latter. I noticed you said the word "can't" as if there is consequences for doing so that are hard to reverse. QUOTE Not sure I agree with this. It's a lack of communication, not a lack of desire for intimacy. Just like Sheldon Kennedy, Theuren Fleury's former coach when he was a kid was Graham James. The Fifth Estate episode on Fleury is on Youtube. Graham James, Roman Polanski, John Philips - the list goes on ... When one is doing self destructive things to avoid the pain one has suffered at the hands of someone more powerful, their purpose is to avoid self intimacy. QUOTE Sorry, but we had a discussion a long time ago in this very thread about the Muslim preacher in Australia blaming women for rapes, saying that if they didn't cover up they were asking for it by exposing themselves "like a piece of meat." "Asking for it" is something you see popping its head up in the West also. I think that we both agree that there is little difference between what this particular Imam is preaching and what John Philips told his daughter. The whole idea is that the victim "wanted" it or was otherwise responsible for it happening. This myth always benefits the perpetrator - and results in more and more victems. Zarqa Nawaz's Me and the Mosque was about revealing misogyny that has creeped into her church as people who share her religion arrive from societies where misogyny is rampant. She doesn't like what she sees as changes and presents them as misogyny tainting religion. I think that you would agree more than disagree with Zarqa Nawaz (I don't agree with everything either). The idea that there used to be female Imams but there aren't any more is not religion but politics. There are female Ministers and Rabbis now, but there weren't always. Priest=Rabbi=Minister=Reverend=Imam QUOTE Rejected by women, you mean. Yeah. I saw a bit of Helene Cixous's Laugh of the Medusa in Zarqa Nawaz's counter argument. You brought up the misogynist Imam - not all the men listening to his message and nodding are perpetrators - some of them are just men who wish to strip women of the ability to judge them - men with inferiority complexes. You see the same attitude in porn - the desire to reduce a woman to something whose opinions do not matter - who can be judged but not judge (or so I've been told). QUOTE Church is a great place to meet other singles. And we might be in church, but we're still human. Where do you think Rayyan (the doctor) and Amaar (the Imam) met - the two lead characters in the TV series Zarqa Nawaz created (see lmotp on youtube)? They are being compared to Sam and Diane - though, personally, I think that would be Fred and Fatima. Fred who went to church to pick up women has a crush on Fatima. Fatima owns a restaurant and cut him off because he ate one meal at her competition - making him apologize on live radio before she would take him back as a customer. I think it was supposed to symbolize him cheating on her - especially since there is a meal that she serves him that no other customer can order. When she married, Zarqa Nawaz told her husband that her career came first - and he agreed. Rayyan is a doctor - so my guess is that her career will also come first. QUOTE Fifty years ago that might have been true. It isn't any more. More and more women are now earning more than their men. We first started seeing the divorce rate rise when women weren't financially dependent on men any more. It isn't as true any more - and truer in some circles than others. The jobs most hit by this recession tend to be traditionally male jobs so the job losses have impacted men more than women. When two income families became one income families - it is more likely that the woman held onto her job. Being financially independent does have an advantage. Being used to being financially independent and losing it not by choice is something difficult to deal with. Does society judge a man who has lost his job differently than a woman who has lost her job? How much has that changed? QUOTE The prime motivation is that they want CONTROL. And who better to have control over than women and children? Control=power over someone. Children are both male and female. Male disadvantage and powerlessness is seen as something temporary - but tell that to Sheldon Kennedy and Theoren Fleury - both who dreamed of being in the NHL and were faced with the dream being taken away from them. Tell that to Warren and Philip Latimer - two brothers whose secret they were so ashamed of that they could not even tell each other: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story...-macdonald.html Why do the victims feel shame - because it serves someone's purpose that they do. I think part of what may have upset you about what that misogynist Imam said was that it promotes the idea that the victim should feel shame and guilt - and not the guilty. QUOTE Saying that women are "distractions" is just a different way of saying that we're just sexual objects first and human beings second. Yeah. I think so too. p. 227 (HBP 12) – “… and a distraction arrived in the shape of Ginny. ‘Hey, Harry, I’m supposed to give you this.” / ‘Thanks, Ginny … it’s Dumbledore’s next lesson!’ |
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Oct 23 2009, 08:49 AM
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Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,087 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd  |
QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 22 2009, 05:37 PM)  Good post to skip. What? QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 22 2009, 05:37 PM) I noticed you said the word "can't" as if there is consequences for doing so that are hard to reverse. No, that's not what I meant. You're reading too much into it. If you get into the mindset that it's just another chore, it will be and all you'll feel is anger and resentment. If you look at it as something fun, which it should be, you'll relax and enjoy yourself more. Most men are well aware that we're tired. We see them as being selfish, but men are ready to go at the drop of a hat. They can't help it. I'm not excusing them and yes they should help out more, but really, how many women end up avoiding sex at all costs whether they're tired or not? That is a symptom of a bigger issue than whether or not he picked up his dirty socks from the bathroom floor. If we learned to worry less about things that really don't matter, we'd enjoy ourselves more. How many people really care if your house passes the white glove test? Is it really THAT important? QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 22 2009, 05:37 PM) Just like Sheldon Kennedy, Theuren Fleury's former coach when he was a kid was Graham James. The Fifth Estate episode on Fleury is on Youtube. Graham James, Roman Polanski, John Philips - the list goes on ... When one is doing self destructive things to avoid the pain one has suffered at the hands of someone more powerful, their purpose is to avoid self intimacy. If you say so. I'm not sure how that's relevant to the topic we were discussing, though. If a man and a woman are having intimacy problems during a time of stress, it's not self-destructive (unless one is drinking heavily or using drugs). It's differing ways of solving problems and a lack of communication with each other. This drives us women nuts because we're born communicators. Men aren't, let's face it. When they see a problem that needs to be fixed, their first impulse is to solve it, not talk about it. Most men just can't--they don't know how. There's nothing wrong with them; it's just the way they are, both biologically and socially/culturally. That means withdrawal into their man cave until they work it out. It sucks for us because we want MORE communication and intimacy under those circumstances, not less. So we get mad at them because we feel our needs aren't being met, and they get mad at us because we can't seem to understand why they're being so un-communicative. QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 22 2009, 05:37 PM) "Asking for it" is something you see popping its head up in the West also. I think that we both agree that there is little difference between what this particular Imam is preaching and what John Philips told his daughter. The whole idea is that the victim "wanted" it or was otherwise responsible for it happening. This myth always benefits the perpetrator - and results in more and more victems. I have no idea what John Phillips told his daughter--I don't have time to sit and watch hours of stuff on YouTube.  But I think most men would condemn rape and would put their lives on the line if they saw a woman being raped. I think that most men are perfectly capable of controlling themselves and know that "no" means "no." But when your religion is telling you that it's all the woman's fault and it's your God-given right to commit rape, there's a problem. It's barbaric and medieval. Even worse, the woman has no legal recourse--even if she's covered head to toe, it's still her fault. What that imam said was that, basically, men are animals and can't (and shouldn't!) control themselves. So even if a woman is completely covered, IT'S STILL HER FAULT because men have animals urges that can't be controlled. (In which case, you might as well run around naked.) I think we can agree that's BS. QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 22 2009, 05:37 PM) Zarqa Nawaz's Me and the Mosque was about revealing misogyny that has creeped into her church as people who share her religion arrive from societies where misogyny is rampant. She doesn't like what she sees as changes and presents them as misogyny tainting religion. I think that's backwards. It's religion influencing the prevalence of misogyny. Do you know where the term "rule of thumb" came from? It's from the Middle Ages, when while it was perfectly okay for a man to beat his wife, he couldn't do it with anything wider than his thumb. And that came from the Church. QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 22 2009, 05:37 PM) You brought up the misogynist Imam - not all the men listening to his message and nodding are perpetrators - some of them are just men who wish to strip women of the ability to judge them - men with inferiority complexes. You see the same attitude in porn - the desire to reduce a woman to something whose opinions do not matter - who can be judged but not judge (or so I've been told). I saw an interview once with a female porn star who just happened to be Catholic. She and a priest were trying to reconcile her faith with what she did for a living. That really isn't the point here, though. The point is that she enjoyed what she did; she really believed she was providing a service to people. And she made a very nice living. It doesn't sound to me like she felt she was being reduced to nothing. This was something that made her feel powerful. She wasn't ashamed of it, nor did she feel the least bit degraded. QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 22 2009, 05:37 PM) It isn't as true any more - and truer in some circles than others. The jobs most hit by this recession tend to be traditionally male jobs so the job losses have impacted men more than women. When two income families became one income families - it is more likely that the woman held onto her job. And that is still true for one reason and one reason only: because women still make less than men. It's more profitable for companies to fire the men and keep the women. But when the woman stays at home with the kids and the man loses his job, you're really in trouble. Then there's NO income. QUOTE Being financially independent does have an advantage. Being used to being financially independent and losing it not by choice is something difficult to deal with. Does society judge a man who has lost his job differently than a woman who has lost her job? How much has that changed? I think that HAS changed, especially in this recession. I certainly don't judge a man who has lost his job; there are so many of them and it's pretty obvious that they're not to blame for getting laid off. But that's me. I think a man judges HIMSELF more harshly than society does. Men's identities revolve around their jobs and what they do for a living. So when a man loses his job and has to rely on his wife to bring home the bacon, it's a huge blow to his self-image as a man. QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 22 2009, 05:37 PM) Children are both male and female. Male disadvantage and powerlessness is seen as something temporary - Ah, but the point is that children are powerless, both physically and legally. People prey on them because of that. They're easy targets that can be controlled by someone stronger than they are. Someone with more social, legal, and physical power. QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 22 2009, 05:37 PM) Why do the victims feel shame - because it serves someone's purpose that they do. I think part of what may have upset you about what that misogynist Imam said was that it promotes the idea that the victim should feel shame and guilt - and not the guilty. No, what upset me is that he said that men being unable to control themselves is a woman's fault. He doesn't have a very high opinion of his own gender, much less women. And this is someone who is in a position to influence a lot of people. -------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
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Oct 23 2009, 03:10 PM
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Sundae-Nut-Chopper at Florean Fortescue's Posts: 923 Joined: 10:41pm March 2, 2007 Location: Entering the Ministry of Magic |
QUOTE(Arianhrod @ Oct 23 2009, 09:49 AM) If a man and a woman are having intimacy problems during a time of stress, it's not self-destructive (unless one is drinking heavily or using drugs). It's differing ways of solving problems and a lack of communication with each other. I think this is a good point. It seems that separating personal conflicts from physical intimacy is harder for some people to do than others. When reading through the recent posts I was reminded of my own marriage woes a few years back and my realization that it was obviously much more difficult for me to set aside my anger and resentment about day to day issues when it came to sexual intimacy, than it was for my ex. My ex seemed to wipe the slate clean from minute to minute and just went about pursuing his usual urges, while I couldn't - I just couldn't forget that we had had a stand-off over this or that just hours earlier. I didn't feel 'generous' or at all interested in his advances when I was still fuming over some recent conflict. So I would concur that power struggles creep into our bedrooms. Denial becomes a weapon, whether used intentionally or not. When sometimes just the intimacy itself might help ameliorate some lingering tension between people, it often just won't happen because it takes a feeling of wanting to give something of oneself to allow true intimacy to occur. This is of course more of the woman's perspective. I would venture to say that many men don't feel a great need to worry about the psychological state of their union. And sadly, when a woman is 'kept' or dependent on a man monetarily then there is often a feeling of expectation in their intimacy - the woman is expected to 'put out' because that's part of her role. Denial becomes her weapon to wield power in the relationship - power that she can't achieve any other way. I don't condone this, but its silly to deny it doesn't happen. In my own case, I don't think that there was such an unequal power relationship. But still, I think I was using denial to some extent to establish my boundaries. I was trying to say "yes, that fight we had this afternoon does matter and I don't sleep with people I am fighting with". I think its very hard to parse out clear reasons for a lack of intimacy, because the reasons intimacy occurs are so complex and multi-layered. But in longer term relationships I suspect that after the 'blush' of love has faded and you get down to issues of compatibility, you will find that those who are simply less compatible and don't really 'like' each other - let alone love each other - will reach a point where intimacy becomes strained at best and impossible at worst. And where there is no feeling of true intimacy, especially psychological intimacy, there is no 'making love' - there is only sex - which is easier for some people to participate in than others. Frankly, I see intimacy and the image of women and men to be part of the great game of reproduction. Its that constant, hormonally driven competition for a mate - whether we recognize that or not. I think that it is the general rule that those in power dictate what is desirable (i.e., men) - the fashion of desirability - but it is also our basic competition for a 'mate' that makes us kowtow to these fashion do's and don'ts (who hasn't seen even the most intellectual older/mature person act like a young teen when he/she is smitten by desire - suddenly the aftershave matters, the make-up is dredged out of the bottom drawer...etc). In fact, a sudden change in the appearance of your mate for the 'better' (new more 'attractive' clothing, cool haircut, more make-up or cologne/perfume) is pretty often a sign that an affair is brewing. The sad fact that fashion and appearance are mostly about reproduction is at the root of why women are held to such unreal standards...being 21 forever (men too, but lets face it, many men tend to age more gracefully - and 'power' has almost as much attraction to women as looks do, so a man doesn't need to rely so heavily on his appearance). It is simply because when it comes to sexuality, 21 is the prime season. I think we can intellectualize ourselves into thinking that we can grow old gracefully (and to be sure there is more grace in some behaviors and looks than others), or into believing that being overweight or 'plain' or whatever shouldn't matter - that love is about the 'inner' realms of our being. But in the end, most of us choose to play the reproduction game and it comes with lots of powerplays and cheating - because its probably the most serious game we ever play. And to seriously compete in the game, we usually succumb to the fashion dictates on some level - we strive to be 21 again. This post has been edited by chloe squibbulus: Oct 23 2009, 03:31 PM -------------------- "I would like to say a few words. Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! And now before we go to bed, let us sing the school song! Everyone pick their favorite tune...and off we go!" Dumbledore; Sorcerer's Stone. |
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Oct 23 2009, 08:35 PM
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter Posts: 2,024 Joined: 4:38pm June 27, 2005 |
Re: What - hint that something in the post may be sensitive giving anyone who doesn’t want to relive old memories a chance to avoid reading it.
QUOTE If you get into the mindset that it's just another chore, it will be and all you'll feel is anger and resentment. If you look at it as something fun, which it should be, you'll relax and enjoy yourself more. Well it is a mindset that needs to be avoided. Though there is a chicken/egg element to it. There is also an element of short term gain that is counterproductive in the long term to it (because it perpetuates that mindset in one's partner). Nagging, for example, may work in the short term but it perpetuates the mindset. QUOTE No, what upset me is that he said that men being unable to control themselves is a woman's fault. He doesn't have a very high opinion of his own gender, much less women. And this is someone who is in a position to influence a lot of people. That he is in this position to influence a lot of people is something that needs to be looked into. Instead of assuming that all Muslims welcome his message, one needs to look for those Muslims who oppose it and ask why we don’t know more about them. Women would not have the right to vote if no one heard of the suffragettes – when the opposition to misogyny becomes invisible, their power to fight it is lost. Your statement about men not being able to control themselves revealing a low opinion of men was a point that Zarqa Nawaz made in Me and the Mosque – you agree with her more than you realise. What pisses me off personally is that the victims of these crimes buy into it too – they blame themselves – they beat up on themselves for being beaten up – they allow the abuse against themselves to continue long after it has ended physically by blaming themselves for it. It can go the other way too - see the Ropers from Man About the House/Threes Company. QUOTE We see them as being selfish, but men are ready to go at the drop of a hat. I think that men feel that they are expected to be able to go at the drop of a hat - that there is something wrong with them if they can't. Boys pressure each other into pressuring girls - though it is sometimes the other way around too - especially these days. 22 Minutes and Rick Mercer had spoofs about viagra/ed - based on the real commercials. One was on how viagra can help one out when one is with a woman that one is pretending is a man because one is really gay (ie that viagra is useful in helping people out when they are not really attracted to the person they are with - for example, when one is not ready to come out of the closet but needs to prove to one's buddies one's straightness by having notches on their belt buckle). Another commercial about someone using viagra "when the time is right" to spend a cozy evening with themselves. Then the one about taking too much making men act like canines involving the leg of a mailman and a fire hydrant. Another one warning those who take the pill not to stand too close to a closing elevator door. And then the one involving actual footage from Question Period (ie Congress discussions). QUOTE If we learned to worry less about things that really don't matter, we'd enjoy ourselves more. How many people really care if your house passes the white glove test? Is it really THAT important? That is another issue - what matters - and who is insisting that it does. Women feel judged by someone - whether it is their family, the inlaws, their husband or the media. Sometimes there are certain things you have to worry about more - when you have young children who can swallow things, or perfume because it makes you weak and drowsie and, if you don't keep on top of it somewhat, you can get to the point where you are so weak you can barely get out of bed (and the weaker you get, the less able you are to keep on top of it - then on top of anything). QUOTE I have no idea what John Phillips told his daughter--I don't have time to sit and watch hours of stuff on YouTube. Cryptic doesn't work. Mackensie Philips and Theoren Fleury both remember waking up and something they did not agree to happening - as the start of a "relationship" in their youth. The difference is that John Philips of the Mamas and Papas convinced his daughter that it was not rape but "making love" (and those who loved their music would prefer to believe that). Mackenzie Philips figure that there is not much talk about people like her - with all the partying when she was younger going on she probably doesn't remember Patty Hearst and the discussions as to whether Patty's later actions were due to Stockholm syndrome (an explanation which would also fit for Mackenzie Philips). Philip Latimer was an alterboy. When his lawyer was asked why he believed him, he said that Philip Latimer had all the symptoms of a person abused in that way - the failed marriages, the drug problems and other self destructive behaviours. Looking back at Theoren Fleury's life, you also see that pattern (which makes all his great hockey accomplishments all that more amazing). While a lack of intimacy ruins marriages, past demons (and this is the more well documented one of these) create a lack of intimacy. Also, if one does have sex after such a traumatic experience, it tends to be to escape intimacy rather than as a form of intimacy. This also goes to the anger that some otherwise decent men have towards the focus on women's pain and women's suffering - that women at least can talk about their pain while men sort of feel that they can't. Some now criticize Theoren Fleury for not going public when Sheldon Kennedy did because it would have led more credence to Kennedy's allegations against his former coach - instead of understanding why his career had to be over before he felt comfortable doing so. When women come forward, they say that she asked for it or that she's lying to get back at someone, but what do they say when men come forward - on top of that? And on top of that, the definition of "masculine" does not include "victim" - that men are taught that they are supposed to be powerful rather than powerless (boys get GI JOE and girls get Barbie) - which makes some things harder for them to talk about. QUOTE That means withdrawal into their man cave until they work it out. It sucks for us because we want MORE communication and intimacy under those circumstances, not less. Women learn from experience quickly that their women friends don't want a list of possible solutions but someone to listen - a reality check to see if their feelings are justified. We learn eventually that "why don't you just dump him" is not what our friends want to hear but, by talking and having us listen they may come to that conclusion themselves. Are there barriers to men being that open about their feelings with their male friends - which they often learn quickly? Sometimes when a man doesn't want to talk about something, it may be too painful to talk about. We all hear stories from people whose fathers or uncles were in WWII that they were never told what happened during the war. Though the veterans from that conflict got together and drank because they all understood a shared experience that they figured that no one who has never been there would understand. We have Paul Gross whose grandfather finally coughed up a few details which Gross made into the movie Passchendaele (which highschool students were made to see in theatre). Father Patrick Desbois's grandfather was a prisoner in the Ukraine during WWII and coughed up that they were forced to dig graves so Father Patrick Desbois has devoted his life to finding these graves and the names of those in them. However, many WWII vets took their experiences to the grave with them and coped by turning to the bottle. Until recently, women tended not to serve in combat missions. QUOTE But when your religion is telling you that it's all the woman's fault and it's your God-given right to commit rape, there's a problem. It's barbaric and medieval. Even worse, the woman has no legal recourse--even if she's covered head to toe, it's still her fault. Even if she is covered head to toe. Pat Robertson advocated genocide on occasion - and other Protestant preachers have given sermons in favour of gun control and against single payer health care. I think that there is a need to distinguish between a religion and those who present themselves as the mouth piece for it. Religions evolve and there are always those inside them trying to influence which direction. I am not going to talk about Jewish feminism because this movement resulted in some very outspoken women - though there is a religious basis for their outspokeness that some of them have mentioned - the prayer that boys say about being glad that they were not born a woman. During a debate over whether Sarah Palin was a feminist, Judy Rebick was practically foaming at the mouth while vehemently opposing the very notion that someone would mistake Palin for a feminist (the very thought just made her so angry). Muslim feminism is rarely even acknowledged to exist - which makes it a more interesting topic. You can probably find an Imam who preaches against homosexuality, but that does not stop the Muslim Canadian Union and Salaam (a group for gay Muslims who want to embrace their faith) from celebrating Ramadan together. Then again, you can probably find a Priest or a Minister who preaches against homosexuality as well - as well as those who feel that they have the right to be both gay and religious. Similarly, there are those who figure that women are inferior to men in every religion and those who consider themselves feminists in every religious group. QUOTE What that imam said was that, basically, men are animals and can't (and shouldn't!) control themselves. So even if a woman is completely covered, IT'S STILL HER FAULT because men have animals urges that can't be controlled. (In which case, you might as well run around naked.) I think we can agree that's BS. Yeah. Then again, there are racists who figure that being completely covered gives them even more of a right - that their clothing labels them as "not one of us" making them fair game. I think that your "running around naked" point is more about the fact that men who feel entitled will always find an excuse. QUOTE I saw an interview once with a female porn star who just happened to be Catholic. She and a priest were trying to reconcile her faith with what she did for a living. That really isn't the point here, though. The point is that she enjoyed what she did; she really believed she was providing a service to people. I wonder how well it worked - the name Mary Magdalene probably came up. There was a documentary which said what quality made a person a porn star. They said that liking sex was not it because that would go away over time. If they liked the money, eventually they would start to feel like a prostitute. The quality is wanting to be famous - that is what kept a porn star from burning out. I think that there needs to be regulation to make the working conditions in that industry safer - and less degrading story lines. Then again I could probably say the latter about some stories put out by WB and Disney where how one looks seems to take precedence over whether or not one can act (because the latter is not important to the plot). QUOTE But when the woman stays at home with the kids and the man loses his job, you're really in trouble. Then there's NO income. … Men's identities revolve around their jobs and what they do for a living. So when a man loses his job and has to rely on his wife to bring home the bacon, it's a huge blow to his self-image as a man. That brings up the topic of spousal abuse. Some men feel entitled to abuse their wives, but others just can't handle the stress and lash out at whose there - which day in and day out would be who they are married to. I've heard in passing in some rabble.ca article or other that the same thing happens in gay marriages. But this brings up another sore point with men - though mostly it is men abusing their wives, men abused by their wives have another barrier that women in their position don't have. Though the men who are abused can often leave their wives easier for financial reasons, they also are rarely believed if they come forward looking for help. Yeah, I have heard of the origin of the term “rule of thumb” but thought that it came from British common law rather than the bible – did not know that. From In Times Like These, 1915: Chapter 4 Should Women Think? A woman, a spaniel, a walnut tree, The more you beat ’em, the better they be. – From Proverbs of All Nations A woman is not a person in matters of rights and privileges, but she is a person in matters of pains and penalties. – From the Common Law of England No woman, idiot, lunatic, or criminal shall vote. – From the Election Act of the Dominion of Canada The chapter then starts with the story of Mary and Martha from the bible and Christ saying that Mary (whom she described as a thinker) had chosen the better path – listening and discussing things rather than worrying about the dirty dishes. The author goes on to say that Mary was not lazy because, if she was, Martha would not have chewed her out for ignoring her chores because she would have long given up in expecting anything from her. I am sure that the story had been interpreted differently from someone else – which leads to the point. Books are a collection of words which need to be interpreted. And, when it comes to the bible, all of us who read it in English are reading a translation rather than the original text. When a person translates, they have to do a certain amount of interpretation because there is no one to one correspondence between languages. Even with the book that started this entire message board, you’ve probably heard of non English speakers wanting to get a hold of an English language version of the book because they did not fully trust that they were getting the same book with the German or French or Sanskrit translation. Books need to be interpreted – and the Priest, Rabbi, Imam or Minister are charged with the job of interpreting a certain book for us. It is basically the same book though some versions of the book contain certain chapters and other versions of the book do not. The problem with human kind is that we have let misogynists interpret the book for us. This post has been edited by Lucette: Oct 23 2009, 08:36 PM |
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Oct 23 2009, 09:01 PM
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#75
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter Posts: 2,024 Joined: 4:38pm June 27, 2005 |
QUOTE No, what upset me is that he said that men being unable to control themselves is a woman's fault. He doesn't have a very high opinion of his own gender, much less women. And this is someone who is in a position to influence a lot of people. That he is in this position to influence a lot of people is something that needs to be looked into. Instead of assuming that all Muslims welcome his message, one needs to look for those Muslims who oppose it and ask why we don’t know more about them. Women would not have the right to vote if no one heard of the suffragettes – when the opposition to misogyny becomes invisible, their power to fight it is lost. Your statement about men not being able to control themselves revealing a low opinion of men was a point that Zarqa Nawaz made in Me and the Mosque – you agree with her more than you realise. What pisses me off personally is that the victims of these crimes buy into it too – they blame themselves – they beat up on themselves for being beaten up – they allow the abuse against themselves to continue long after it has ended physically by blaming themselves for it. QUOTE Ah, but the point is that children are powerless, both physically and legally. People prey on them because of that. They're easy targets that can be controlled by someone stronger than they are. When things start to get patriarchical, there is a movement to turn women into children as far as their rights are concerned. Not just women but other ethnic groups - where "the white man's burden" comes from is the idea that the slave owner is sort of like the father and the slaves are his children. Nellie McClung made the point back in 1915 (In Times Like These)that she figures that cultural expectations are behind women being weaker rather than genetics - because she grew up on a farm and did not see the same difference between male and female farm animals. "The inequality has arisen from men's superior physical strength, which is only noticeable in the human family. Among all animals, withthe possible exception of cattle, the female is quite as large and well endowed as the male. It is easy for bigger and stronger people to arrogate to themselves a general superiority. Christ came to rebuke the belief that brute strength is the dominant force in life. It is no wonder that the teachings of Christ make a special appeal to women, for Christ was a true democrat. They were all human beings to Him, with souls to save and lives to live, and He applied to men and women the same rules of conduct." - p. 68 A related asside. Have been following the Battle of the Blades message board and comment section on facebook and every once in a while someone comes up with the idea that they should do the same thing next year but with female hockey skaters and male figure skaters. It would not work because in pairs and dance (figure skating), the woman does most of the difficult work (ie it is easier physically to lift someone than to keep in these odd gravity defying positions). However, then you get some misogynist who insists that female hockey players are not real women - that they are more like men that they are women! This is BS - but such commentary (and the person used worse words) comes up once in a while - sometimes even out of the mouths of women! Another sad part about a comment like that was that the purpose of getting male hockey players and female figure skaters together for Battle of the Blades was to show that one can be both masculine and figure skate. For example, no one would accuse Tie Domi (a former hockey enforcer/goon) of being a delicate flower. Personally, I figured that figure skating should have shed its sissy image when Elvis Stojko skated to silver with a pre-existing groin injury - but that is just me. This post has been edited by Lucette: Oct 23 2009, 09:02 PM |
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Oct 24 2009, 12:32 AM
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#76
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Sundae-Nut-Chopper at Florean Fortescue's Posts: 917 Joined: 6:35pm April 4, 2008 Location: Great White North |
The education director, Chris Spence, for the Toronto District School Board has put forth the idea of boys only classes and possibly boys only schools. Story here from the CBC.
QUOTE A top Toronto educator is proposing an all-boys grade school in the city. Chris Spence, the education director for the Toronto District School Board, told CBC News on Wednesday that "when we look at our data — who's underachieving, who's getting suspended — we have great concerns about our boys." Spence produced a report for the TDSB called A Vision of Hope, which calls for single-sex classes, programs and even schools just for boys. The goal is to improve boys' marks and lower their dropout rate. The thinking behind this is that boys are falling behind girls in academic achievements. It wasn't all that many years ago that there were concerns that girls were underachieving in the maths and sciences as the curriculum at the time was more palatable to boys than girls. Oddly, I don't recall the suggestion for girls only schools at that time!  QUOTE An idea under consideration by the Toronto District School Board to create an all-boys school in hopes of raising test scores and cutting the dropout rate was warmly welcomed by Premier Dalton McGuinty Wednesday. "I love the fact that the TDSB is now putting forward a plan, developing a consensus, pushing out the envelope and innovating,'' McGuinty told reporters. "The fact of the matter is our boys are not doing as well as our girls when it comes to reading and behavioural challenges and I'm delighted they're taking on that particular responsibility.'' Edited: To correct link thingy This post has been edited by Weird One: Oct 24 2009, 07:11 AM -------------------- '- yet sadly, accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often,'.....Albus Dumbledore |
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Oct 24 2009, 02:06 PM
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#77
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter Posts: 2,024 Joined: 4:38pm June 27, 2005 |
Since I accidentally posted here and had to move my post, I might as well used this post for something.
I don't think that an all boys school will do anything for boys because it doesn't deal with the underlying problem. I think that the boys reading issue has to do with definitions of Masculinity and Femininity - that male jocks are seen as cool and male bookworms are not. This idea that certain fields of study are inappropriate for certain genders predates the talking barbie who was taken off the market for saying "Math is Hard". Strange that it is Math and Science that were supposed to be considered unfeminine - until the Montreal Massacre, at least. And it seems that reading (and probably writing) is something men doesn't do as much. My son likes to read, but hates to write. And he thinks that he has found a law that states that it is illegal for his teachers to make him write essays about his personal life and his feelings. Don't think it works that way. If women can be hockey players, then men should be able to be figure skaters. And, in neither case should their masculinity or femininity be questioned. This post has been edited by Lucette: Oct 24 2009, 02:22 PM |
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Oct 30 2009, 09:28 AM
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#78
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Director of Nicholas Flamel Laboratories Posts: 11,087 Joined: 11:06am January 28, 2005 Location: Lighting the mountain path for Llewellyn ap Gryffudd |
And how about this one? I'm sure everyone's heard about it by now.
Sixth Person Arrested in Gang Rape Words just can't describe how horrific this is. It's just heartbreaking. As the mother of a teenage girl, this really, really hit home. I'd like to raise a few questions regarding this incident. IMO it's a teaching lesson for our daughters--and especially our sons. What is wrong with our young men that they think this is acceptable? In my opinion, the bystanders who did nothing are just as guilty as the participants--actually, they're worse. It takes a truly depraved person to watch such a brutal attack and not report it. Is it desensitization due to TV, rap, porn, etc.? Or is there something else? Or a combination of things? It's easy to say that is the objectification of women or bad parenting, but that's nothing new. Men have been objectifying women since the beginning of time and there have always been bad parents. Is it cultural? Without being racist, all six men that have been arrested so far are Latino. Is that a factor? I suspect these types of crimes are a lot more common than has been reported, and not just in the United States. Why? What do we do about it? I think part of it is that we let these kids off with a slap on the wrist. "Oh, they're only 15, they didn't know what they were doing." That's bullshit. They knew perfectly well what they were doing. We need to throw the book at them. Castration isn't cruel and unusual in a case like this, and not just for the participants. Neither is a firing squad. Throwing them, each one individually, in a locked room with a bunch of pedophiles wouldn't be, either. If the bystanders actually thought this was sexually exciting, they're just as guilty. Let them share the punishment. This particular article really got my hackles up: Gang Rape Raises Questions about Bystander's Role Yeah, let's make excuses for them. "Mob mentality rules." I think these so-called psychologists need to get out of the ivory tower and quit trying to justify these attacks. While they're probably not attempting to do that, that's the way it comes off. Now, by all accounts, this girl was drunk, but does that give them an excuse to do this to her? I say no. It raises questions about security at the school. That school district is in a world of trouble. /rant -------------------- The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity.--Harlan Ellison
My father considered a walk among the mountains as the equivalent of churchgoing.--Aldous Huxley |
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Oct 30 2009, 03:10 PM
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#79
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Sundae-Nut-Chopper at Florean Fortescue's Posts: 923 Joined: 10:41pm March 2, 2007 Location: Entering the Ministry of Magic |
I have only read your links and a couple of short news briefs on this case, Arianhrod, but I find it interesting that they are reporting '20 people', which implies that there may have been girls watching as well as boys. But on the other hand I have also noticed that often when the press reports on crime statistics, it will be stated in general terms, like "90% of teens who commit violent crimes..." instead of bothering to note that the majority of them are male. So I would be curious to find out what the male/female ratio of the group was.
Yes, it is horrific...but then rapes and beatings of women occur all over the world all the time. I don't say this to diminish the deed, but to just agree with your proposal that it is a cultural problem. There is an underlying acceptance of sexual violence against women that is brushed off with "boys will be boys". The punishment of rape even in western countries has been only slowly improved - and there is still a tendency to scrutinize the girl/woman for whether or not she 'brought it on herself' with her behavior. I do personally think that violence in TV, film, songs and video games does add to the ability for people to become desensitized to violent acts, and to find them more intriguing and stimulating than repulsive. It is surely a good example of a cultural failure when something like this occurs in a country that calls itself civilized. When one can treat a situation such as this as a bit of 'entertainment' and have no empathy whatsoever with the victim - how different is it really than what we see constantly in TV, films, and video games? I am reminded of the types of games that children play (which really aren't games per se, they are reenactments of what they see around them). Yesterday or the day before NPR showed some photos from a neighborhood (in Nashville), in one of which two very young boys (maybe 6 or 7?) were in the backyard of their housing project and one of the boys has a hand gun (toy, I assume) pointed at the other whose hands are spread open against a wall. While this could have been a "good guy/bad guy" scenario, it certainly was a reenactment of something the kids had seen in the media (unless they had actually seen a hold-up in their neighborhood). 'Play' in which someone points a gun at someone else's head doesn't seem harmless to me, personally. 'Horror', 'slasher', crime/mystery and really almost all types of films are full of victimization of women, and although the plot usually purports to condemn the behavior, there is a certain glee in the depiction of gruesome details of the crimes that we as a society relish on some level, or the films wouldn't be successful and continue to be produced. I am also not very sympathetic when it comes to prosecution of crimes such as these - based on 'insufficient adolescent brain development'. The fact is - most of the violent crimes are committed by young men, a good deal of whom are under 20. So does this mean that because they are not fully mature, that their acts are excusable? It just becomes a legal maneuver after a while to get leniency for the perpetrator. If this demographic is responsible for a high percentage of the crime that threatens women in particular (with this type of crime), then as a culture we are just adopting the "boys will be boys" mentality and allowing the perpetration of these acts to continue when we give these young men just a slap on the wrist. When people are a threat to society - at whatever age -they must be contained in some manner to eliminate the threat and there must be consequences that are severe enough to deter it in the future. I almost posted a reference to the news that women in Italy have finally 'had it' with Berlusconi yesterday. Since I'm posting I might as well bring this up too, because its about time that the women in one of the most sexist of the European countries started standing up for themselves. Both the rape case and Berlusconi backlash show that 'feminist issues' are alive and current...and also how far the rights of women still need to go to allow women to not be targets of discrimination, insult and violence. This post has been edited by chloe squibbulus: Oct 30 2009, 04:14 PM -------------------- "I would like to say a few words. Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! And now before we go to bed, let us sing the school song! Everyone pick their favorite tune...and off we go!" Dumbledore; Sorcerer's Stone. |
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Oct 30 2009, 08:07 PM
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#80
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Transfiguration Today's Star Reporter Posts: 2,024 Joined: 4:38pm June 27, 2005 |
I never heard this most recent story, but I've heard of the earlier ones in the article.
The article mentioned "bystander effect" which means that the more people there, the less likely that any one person will report it. However, I don't think that it was the case here. There could have been a bit of "Just World Phenomenon" - the belief that the person must have done something really bad as a means of convincing ones self that it would never happen to them, but even that is marginal. Since it was over the fence and in a poorly lit area, some people may not have realized exactly what was going on. They might has suspected that it did not seem right, but convinced themselves that they were over reacting. No teen wants to look foolish so those who did not climb the fence to get a better look may have thought they were overreacting. Still, even if they did not realize that a rape was going on, it would have looked like someone was getting beaten up - even at a distance and in the dark. QUOTE In my opinion, the bystanders who did nothing are just as guilty as the participants--actually, they're worse. It takes a truly depraved person to watch such a brutal attack and not report it. Being bullied is not as bad as being beaten or raped, however, I am a little more forgiving of bystanders. Sometimes to speak up is taken as an invitation to take the place of the victim - especially in a school situation. There are a couple quotes from "Too Soon for 'good' Residential School Stories" by Colleen Simard I would like to share with you (and note that, unlike her parents and grandparents, she is too young to have ever been in one of these schools herself): Not everyone was physically or sexually abused at residential school; this is true. But it's wrong to think that seeing other kids getting abused wouldn't be a traumatic experience. Seeing abuse happen is abuse too. And being taken from home and not allowed to speak your own language is abuse. ... Percy shares a few bits of his experience with me; he was beaten at residential school and remembers seeing a nine-year old repeatedly beaten for bedwetting. He had to learn to grit his teeth and stay quiet or else get beaten. http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/w...s-64661672.html What Percy is talking about in Colleen Simard's article is the trauma associated with being a bystander - of being a witness. Usually, if I am walking down the street by myself, if I see two people arguing in the distance, I yell "Is everything OK?" and usually they stop arguing and look around. It is worthless really because I can't fight but it is enough of a distraction that the arguing usually stops. Once I did that when I was with a male friend, figuring that what I was doing was no big deal and he told me afterwords that he wished that I had not done that because he was afraid that the guy would come after him because of what I said. Of course I thought he was being ridiculous - ok, paranoid - but do other men share his fear? p. 569 (OOTP 29) – “Students all around had turned to watch. Some of them had got to their feet and were edging nearer. Some looked apprehensive, others entertained.” QUOTE Now, by all accounts, this girl was drunk, but does that give them an excuse to do this to her? I say no. It raises questions about security at the school. That school district is in a world of trouble. No - drunk or passed out does not equal consent. Even if she was willingly "engaged" with one guy doesn't give anyone the right to join in. What was more troubling was that the Principal (or whatever he was) seems to figure that it is a student's (read girl's) duty to make sure she has a ride home. To me he sounded as if she was asking for it by not securing a ride. QUOTE Castration isn't cruel and unusual in a case like this, and not just for the participants. I would limit it to the participants. Though, castration doesn't work for rapists - they would substitute knives and broken beer bottles. How would these boys get arrested if none of the witnesses spoke up? Romeo Dallaire could not bring himself to talk about the worst that he saw in Rwanda until the very end of his book, "Shake Hands with the Devil" - and it started with coming home and driving in his car and thinking that he saw a piece of clothing floating across the road but then realizing that it was just a piece of newspaper. In Rwanda, clothing blew across the road and one could tell with the corpses how they died. QUOTE There is an underlying acceptance of sexual violence against women that is brushed off with "boys will be boys". The punishment of rape even in western countries has been only slowly improved - and there is still a tendency to scrutinize the girl/woman for whether or not she 'brought it on herself' with her behavior. Agree, though there may be an element of racism too. The less value a woman or girl is seen to have, the more likely she is to be a victim of violence. Her value is based on a lot of factors - one of them being her race. I don't think that they use the "boys will be boys" argument if a boy paints a Swastika on a building or drives down with his friends from the suburbs downtown to beat up rubbies or people who look like they might be gay. Rape is a hate crime. That said, there is usually a person egging the others on - one of the perps a bit more guilty than the others. QUOTE Both the rape case and Berlusconi backlash show that 'feminist issues' are alive and current...and also how far the rights of women still need to go to allow women to not be targets of discrimination, insult and violence. That is a basic starting point in deciding whether feminism is a women's issue or a human rights issue concerning gender. These things still happen to women both in milder every day forms and the more violent forms more often than they do men. However, is it only bad when it happens to us? Even if we limit the conversation to violent acts committed against women, are boys and men scarred by what happens to their mothers, sisters or female friends? Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, Canadians elect members to this House to represent their values of cooperation and mutual respect. However, we regularly see members behaving badly, in a manner that undermines the trust our constituents have placed in us. During question period we have been witnessing undeniably sexist heckling from members of the government side. This abuse is growing hotter, it is growing more frequent, and there is more bullying. I can hear some of it now, except in this case it is not targeting women as it all too often does in this chamber. It targets women representing opposition parties, all the opposition parties in the House. Sexist bullying is completely unacceptable in Canada and can in no way be tolerated in our Parliament. As a parliamentarian, as a man, a father, a grandfather, I call on the government's leadership to really get a grip on its members and set a higher standard. http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/P...p;DocId=4182537 to fix codes This post has been edited by Lucette: Oct 30 2009, 08:12 PM |
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