Romance In The Hp Films, Forget the shipping - they've done a brilliant job! |
 Mar 10 2006, 10:42 AM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher  Posts: 170 Joined: 12:57pm September 14, 2005  |
Apologies for the huge length of this - there's a lot to talk about in this subject!
I've just been listening to the TLC GoF commentary, and I wanted to voice my thoughts on the issue of the so-called "Harry/Hermione shipping" in the movies. I've always been a bit baffled by the criticism in this regard, to be honest. I’m not writing about shipping, I'm not interested in that - I'm talking about adaptation, and how successful the adaptation of the romances has been (in my opinion, very!). I'm not a shipper myself, I've never cared who ends up with who. I've enjoyed the romances in the books so far, and they have me emotionally engaged – which is surely JKR's intention. So you're seeing this from an outsiders POV - I don't have, and have never had, shipping preferences. It seems to me that so far, the way the film-makers have handled the romance has been absolutely perfect, and the criticism has been very unfair. I don't think they could have been more obvious about Ron/Hermione if they tried. In every film so far, it has been made very clear that Harry and Hermione have a comfortable, platonic friendship, while Ron and Hermione have a lot romantic tension and the potential for more in their relationship. I have not seen a single scene which contradicts that. That's the way it is in the books, and it's the way it is in the movies. Maybe part of the interpretation problem lies with the fact that some people struggle to differentiate between romantic love and platonic love. When people see that a boy and a girl are very good friends, when they hug and comfort each other, they assume they have romantic feelings. It’s sad that a boy and a girl aren't allowed to be good friends without people projecting romance onto it - I've had that in the past with my female friends. Just because a boy and a girl hug, and care for each other, does not mean they are in love. Not at all. With teenagers (and adults!), the signs of romance are often awkwardness, embarrassment, jealousy and tension. It’s not always fluffy and and happy, but it’s realistic. I don't see any of this with Harry and Hermione in the movies. I see bucket-loads of it with Ron and Hermione. The film-makers even started Ron/Hermione earlier in the movies than in the book, as JKR said - the moment at the end of CoS when Harry and Hermione hug, and Ron and Hermione are too awkward and embarrassed, should have set alarm bells off immediately – nobody could have missed it. That is exactly how a young girl and boy of that age who fancy each other would act. This continued in fine style in PoA, which is probably still the most clear Ron/Hermione movie of all the movies. Their awkward reaction to the hand-holding in Hagrid's paddock; the little "do you want to move a bit closer?" gag at the Shrieking Shack; Hermione turning to Ron for comfort, not Harry, when Buckbeak is "executed" (interestingly, foreshadowing the end of HBP, and the funeral); Ron and Hermione replaying the Malfoy and Pansy scene from earlier in the film about his injuries. So, do Harry and Hermione do anything approaching this tension and spark in the first three movies? Nope. They're friends. They talk to each other. They smile. They hold hands when running to stay together, but it's so unromantic that they don't even react to it. They hug. They support each other. Harry gets worried when Hermione is petrified. Yep, you guessed it - all the signs of a perfectly comfortable friendship, with nothing bubbling under the surface. They are signs of affection - but affection does not = romance, not even with a boy and a girl. So, in the first three films, Harry and Hermione are comfortable friends, while Ron and Hermione’s relationship is full of tension. Sounds a lot like canon to me ... Then we come to GoF. I simply can’t understand the number of complaints about the romance in this film. The film-makers continued to make things very clear about R/Hr. Hermione's gasp of horror and hands-clapped-over-the-mouth moment when she thinks Ron is going to the ball with Fleur, her anguished look back over her shoulder after her first argument with Ron at the ball, Ron's obvious jealousy of Krum, Hermione bursting into tears of sadness – not anger – as she tells him to ask her next time ... they couldn't have made it much clearer if they tried. The clincher is the fact that a love song, about people being afraid to make a move, is played in the background as they argue when they storm out of the hall together. It doesn't get more in-your-face than that! When clips started appearing of GoF, I heard people getting tremendously excited and/or angry about so-called "Harry/Hermione moments". Then I would watch the clips, and would be totally baffled about what people were talking about! All of these so-called "moments" are clearly just platonic, and more importantly, they are all from somewhere in the books. Look at them one-by-one. Hermione hugging Harry in the tent before the task is one that often comes up, but it is straight from the ending of PS. Hermione’s lip trembled and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him. – PS, UK ed., 208 So, that’s canon. In fact, the dramatic irony of that scene is that Rita thinks Harry and Hermione are in love, but they really or not - strangely, it seems some of the audience identify more with Rita in this scene than with Harry and Hermione! But the scene is purely one about friendship - there are no lingering looks, nothing to suggest an underlying tension or romantic interest. So that's that one. Hermione's overjoyed reaction to Harry catching the egg seems, for some reason, to get complaints too. But that's from the Quidditch matches in Book 1: “Ron! Ron! Where are you? The game’s over! Harry’s won! We’ve won! Gryffindor are in the lead!” shrieked Hermione, dancing up and down on her seat and hugging Parvati Patil in the row in front. – PS, UK ed., 164 So, another bit of canon, further reinforced by GoF itself: “Harry, you were brilliant!” Hermione said squeakily. There were fingernail marks on her face where she had been clutching it in fear. – GoF, UK ed., 313 Harry's amazement at Hermione's appearance at the Yule Ball is one which perhaps gets the most complaints, but in the book, his reaction goes even further – his "jaw drops". They didn't even do this in the movie. In fact, pay attention to the scene carefully – Daniel Radcliffe’s reaction is decidedly underplayed, suggests more surprise than romantic interest, and Mike Newell chooses not to linger on his reaction. It would have been easy to play that scene wrong and make it semi-romantic, but Newell skillfully avoided it. The scene plays out with Harry gawking at Cho, then being amazed at how Hermione looks, just as in the book. The scene is not about romance - it's about Hermione looking nice, and we see that, as we see everything, through Harry's eyes. But his reaction is not a romantic one - it is an amazed one, which is quickly cut away from. Hermione kissing Harry on the head after the second task also gets complaints, for some reason. But at the end of the GoF book, she “kissed him on the cheek”. So, that’s quasi-canon, but even more motherly than a kiss on the cheek! Also, the bit at the end, about "everything changing" - he puts a hand on her shoulder. Wow, real romantic gesture that one! That scene is one which really emphasises the brother/sister bond between Harry and Hermione, just as it is in the book. No problems there. So, all of these so-called “Harry/Hermione moments” are canon moments, taken directly from different books, and even the one that isn't is very obviously a platonic, friendship moment. So please don't be mad at Mike Newell or Steve Kloves for all this – they're only doing what the books tell them! The big scene, for me, is the "I'm scared for you" scene on the bridge. Hermione talks about Krum being a “physical” being. Does Harry get jealous? Does he show any signs of romantic longing for Hermione? Not at all. He laughs. He teases her. That scene again sums up the brother-sister relationship between Harry and Hermione perfectly, and should sweep away any questions an audience might have had about their friendship. In fact, when Hermione is telling Harry she is worried for him, he gets annoyed - watch his face. He wants her to stop nagging him. Very in-character, the sort of thing you might see in one of the books, and hardly the most romantic reaction in the world! Then there's the fact that people who think Harry likes Hermione in GoF have somehow missed all the sledgehammer Harry/Cho moments. I won’t even comment on that. The film-makers know what they're doing, they know where it's going, and they've done a superb job so far. The idea that the film-makers are somehow Harry/Hermione shippers, and Warner Bros. have pressed things in that direction, is simply incorrect, and does not hold any water when the films are looked at objectively. I really applaud them for the way they've done this – it would have been easy to get it wrong. No doubt we will have more complaints from fans and shippers after OotP, if Hermione dares to grab Harry’s arm in fear in the Grawp scene, or Cho is jealous of Hermione and Harry’s friendship (which happens in canon!) – but make no mistake, you won’t be seeing any actual romantic moments between them, just as you haven’t seen any in the last four movies. Everyone I’ve encountered who has not read the books thinks it is quite obvious that it is going the Ron/Hermione way. Comments from non-readers on the internet I have read also suggest the general audience can see the truth – one I read specifically noted the brother-sister relationship of Harry and Hermione in GoF. If any audience members think it's going the Harry/Hermione way, my assumption is that's probably because, until GoF, there was no one else for Harry to fall in love with (with Ginny so sidelined), so they automatically put him with Hermione in their minds. Audiences have certain expectations about cinematic romance which perhaps do not exist with readers. Daniel and Emma's good screen-chemistry and natural good looks probably furthered that, and given the popularity the romantic comedy genre, people (especially young people) may expect that the main boy and a girl characters who are good friends will get together. But anyone actually paying attention to the film itself cannot fail to miss the Ron/Hermione hints, and the complete lack of any romantic tension or actual romantic hints between Harry and Hermione. -------------------- "You lot. You spend all your time thinking about dying, like you're going to get killed by eggs or beef or global warming or asteroids. But you never take time to imagine the impossible - that maybe you survive." - The Ninth Doctor
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Mar 10 2006, 11:15 AM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 172 Joined: 4:58pm August 7, 2005 Location: mass |
I really agree with you. it will always be ron and hermione and this will never change. But i do think that it is possible to see h/hr stuff in GoF. Young kids who just start to like the opposite sex act around the person thye like in diffrent ways. Some giggle alot, some show off, some make any excuse to be near them or touch them, some act akwardly. This is why diffrent people can read diffrent things into the movies. Someone who when they like somone make any excuse to be around them or touch them could see the movie and think that what hermiones doing with harry others who act akwardly about the person they like could see the movie and think thats what hermiones doing with ron (which is what she is actually doing.)
And its not so much that harry and hermione are hugging each other !!! (OMG!) <(thats a joke) ITs that hermione and harry are ALWAYS hugging each other, everytime you turn around they are hugging each other and shees kissing him on the headd. Compared to the much less amount of akwardness between hermione and ron. IF they made R/HR stuff as much as they had Harry and hermione hugging stuff, i would be like okay thats fine people will still get its R/HR. But they dont! In the long run this stuff dosnt really matter to me. And to be honest i pretty much agree with almost everything you said. i am just trying to show the other side to the aurgument. -------------------- It does not due to dwell on dreams and forget to live-DD PS/SS Book & Movie
http://warnerbros.eprize.net/harrypotter4/...b1babcb34db8880 |
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Mar 10 2006, 11:45 AM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 170 Joined: 12:57pm September 14, 2005 |
QUOTE(rosie12L @ Mar 10 2006, 04:15 PM) [snapback]738976[/snapback] I really agree with you. it will always be ron and hermione and this will never change. But i do think that it is possible to see h/hr stuff in GoF. Young kids who just start to like the opposite sex act around the person thye like in diffrent ways. Some giggle alot, some show off, some make any excuse to be near them or touch them, some act akwardly. This is why diffrent people can read diffrent things into the movies. Someone who when they like somone make any excuse to be around them or touch them could see the movie and think that what hermiones doing with harry others who act akwardly about the person they like could see the movie and think thats what hermiones doing with ron (which is what she is actually doing.) I don't think that's the case in GoF, though. It would be if there was anything, even one tiny little hint, which pointed directly towards Harry and Hermione having romantic feelings, but there aren't any. We know they're friends and have been friends for ages, and we see them hug once, and we see her kiss him on the top of the head once after completing a very difficult and demanding task. There is nothing in the movie which goes beyond friendship, or suggests deeper feelings. There are no moments which suggest a cinematic romance. It's a simple cinematic rule - if something is not seen, talked about, or even hinted at, then it's not part of the story. We see them hug, but there is nothing in the movie which suggests anything more - therefore, a Harry/Hermione relationship is not part of the story. It doesn't exist in the film. Now, if we saw them hugging, and one of them seemed particularly emotionally affected by it in some kind of close-up, then I would agree - but we don't. If we saw them exchanging lingering, longing looks across the Great Hall, I'd agree - but we don't. They treat those hugs as a matter-of-fact thing, which suggests there are no romantic feelings. And as I said, the bridge scene points directly away from them having any feelings for each other. QUOTE(rosie12L @ Mar 10 2006, 04:15 PM) [snapback]738976[/snapback] And its not so much that harry and hermione are hugging each other !!! (OMG!) <(thats a joke) ITs that hermione and harry are ALWAYS hugging each other, everytime you turn around they are hugging each other and shees kissing him on the headd. Compared to the much less amount of akwardness between hermione and ron. IF they made R/HR stuff as much as they had Harry and hermione hugging stuff, i would be like okay thats fine people will still get its R/HR. But they dont! It's not true that Harry and Hermione are always hugging, either - they've only done that twice in the four movies so far, once in CoS and once in GoF, and she kissed him on the top of the head once. Again, none of this goes beyond what was in the books at all, and none of it goes beyond platonic friendship. Compare that to Ron and Hermione's awkward non-hug, Ron and Hermione holding hands and being incredibly awkward and embarrassed about it, Ron being jealous of Krum, Hermione being upset when she thinks Ron is going to the ball with Fleur, and Hermione telling Ron to ask her to the ball next time, and it's no contest - one of these relationships is clearly a comfortable platonic friendship and the other clearly isn't. The only way I think anyone can read Harry/Hermione into the GoF movie is if they don't really understand the difference between a platonic friendship and a teenage romance, and can't recognise the signs. This post has been edited by JackHarkness: Mar 10 2006, 11:48 AM -------------------- "You lot. You spend all your time thinking about dying, like you're going to get killed by eggs or beef or global warming or asteroids. But you never take time to imagine the impossible - that maybe you survive." - The Ninth Doctor
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Mar 10 2006, 01:27 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 172 Joined: 4:58pm August 7, 2005 Location: mass |
I WAS overexaggerating when i said they are always hugging and kissing him on the head. No what i ment was that they are always togeter acting in a way that to some people can interpret as ramantic. Here is probably the best example i can give you: Now i my copy of the 3rd movie is scratched so some of this may be a little off but i think i have the main idea. In the third film when harry and hermione are running from the wharwolf we find them behind a tree and hermione grabs harrys hand out of fear, now by itself this is nothing for it was done out of fear. BUT the film makers decided that it would be nice if got a nice close up on harry and hermiones hand together. I remeber this pretty vivdly becassue i rmeber saying "now what the h*** is that about?" to my freind.
-------------------- It does not due to dwell on dreams and forget to live-DD PS/SS Book & Movie
http://warnerbros.eprize.net/harrypotter4/...b1babcb34db8880 |
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Mar 10 2006, 01:44 PM
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Hiding in the Iron Maiden at Borgin and Burkes Posts: 329 Joined: 11:01am September 29, 2005 Location: USA |
Well i just want to say i agree with everything you've posted. It's always appeared to me that Ron and Hermione like each other (in the books & movies) and Harry and Hermione are just good friends. The kiss and hug didn't seem romantic to me at all, more like one friend who was concerned about another friend.
-------------------- To love and be loved is to feel the sun from both sides--David Vincent
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Mar 10 2006, 01:52 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 170 Joined: 12:57pm September 14, 2005 |
QUOTE(rosie12L @ Mar 10 2006, 06:27 PM) [snapback]739061[/snapback] BUT the film makers decided that it would be nice if got a nice close up on harry and hermiones hand together. I remeber this pretty vivdly becassue i rmeber saying "now what the h*** is that about?" to my freind. That's interesting, because I watched PoA yesterday, when I was thinking about this idea, and I distinctly remember there not being a close-up of the hand-holding. It's a blink-and-you'll-miss-it thing in the corner of the screen. I'll have to watch it again, but I'm pretty sure I'm remembering this right. -------------------- "You lot. You spend all your time thinking about dying, like you're going to get killed by eggs or beef or global warming or asteroids. But you never take time to imagine the impossible - that maybe you survive." - The Ninth Doctor
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Mar 10 2006, 02:09 PM
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Doctor Filibuster's Junior Assistant Posts: 1,978 Joined: 3:07pm August 9, 2005 |
I agree they're doing a good job with the relationships in the movies. Dan played the scene in GOF where Hermione comes down the stairs perfectly, and Rupert and Emma both did great with their parts in the Yule Bawl scene too - as they did before with the awkward handholding and hug scene at Buckbeak's execution.
One thing that never really occurred to me until I was reading this thread just now, though, is the difference between Hermione's worrying about Harry in a motherly sort of way (both in the books and movies) and Ron's worrying about Hermione (mostly in the books) when she takes on so much in her schedule and when he thinks Rita is going to portray her as a "Scarlet Woman". Not that Harry has never shown concern about Hermione, but Ron does worry about her more than Harry does and expresses it in a more protective way. -------------------- "Bite me." -- Melissa Anelli (lol)
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Mar 10 2006, 02:10 PM
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Newest Housekeeper at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 729 Joined: 10:06am August 31, 2005 Location: Just graduated from the Salem Witch Institute  |
 What a great post, JackHarkness. You have carefully laid down your argument with excellent examples from both the movies and the books. Bravo!I agree 100% with everything you said, up to and including the part about not being into shipping. However, I have felt while watching the movies that the interactions between Harry and Hermione were too romantic, but maybe there are just more sparks between Dan and Emma than Emma and Rupert, and that carries over into their delivery of Harry, Ron and Hermione. But! I completely agree that the filmmakers have done all they can to demonstrate the real romantic inclinations of the characters. In the most recent movie it couldn't have been more clear, but in the previous movies I remember Hermione hugging Harry for something (I forget what) and then stopping short of hugging Ron and instead shaking his hand. I thought this was an excellent way to show that a hug between Harry and Hermione was simply friendly but there was a charge between Ron and Hermione that they were afraid to broach. -------------------- You may not like him, but you can't deny: Dumbledore's got style!
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Mar 10 2006, 02:45 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 170 Joined: 12:57pm September 14, 2005 |
I think it is fair to say that Dan and Emma do have more natural chemistry, but that makes sense, since they seem to be closer in real life than Emma and Rupert are - both Dan and Emma are extraverted people, while Rupert comes across as more introverted, and lets his performance do the talking. Perhaps this is also part of the reason people may get the wrong impression - although the irony is that Dan and Emma's relationship in real life is exactly the same as Harry and Hermione, practically a brother and sister who would never even consider going out with each other! I don't have any worries about Rupert and Emma's chemistry for later movies, though - the argument as they leave the Great Hall was done brilliantly by both of them, and Hermione's upset at not being asked to the ball by Ron first seemed really geniune.
I remember Chris Columbus talking about the scene at the end of CoS, actually, when Hermione hugs Harry, and Ron and Hermione just shake hands. I remember him saying that he gave Emma these directions - "You have to hug Harry. He's one of your best friends, probably your best friend, and you've been petrified - you have to hug him. But you don't hug Ron, because that's where the tension is." QUOTE(hedwig2323 @ Mar 10 2006, 07:09 PM) [snapback]739090[/snapback] Dan played the scene in GOF where Hermione comes down the stairs perfectly I was impressed with Dan there. That was a scene that it would have been very easy to get wrong, and give the wrong impression, but he played it perfectly - the initial "who on earth is that?" look, and then his subsequent amazement at realising it's Hermione. What he does so well is play it as innocent amazement - you know he's been blown away by the fact Hermione looks so pretty, but you don't get the impression that he's attracted to her. That's not an easy balance, and he gets it just right. This post has been edited by JackHarkness: Mar 10 2006, 02:47 PM -------------------- "You lot. You spend all your time thinking about dying, like you're going to get killed by eggs or beef or global warming or asteroids. But you never take time to imagine the impossible - that maybe you survive." - The Ninth Doctor
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Mar 10 2006, 03:02 PM
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 172 Joined: 4:58pm August 7, 2005 Location: mass |
As i said befor i agree with almost everything you said, i was just showing the other side of the story. Maybe the scene i said in PoA didnt actually happen, i dont know maybe i was making up that vivid memory. My point is that i agree for the most part of what you said. And Emma and Dan do have wayyyyy more sparks then rupert and emma which may be the start of all the H/Hr stuff people think is happening.
-------------------- It does not due to dwell on dreams and forget to live-DD PS/SS Book & Movie
http://warnerbros.eprize.net/harrypotter4/...b1babcb34db8880 |
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