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Scribbulus Chat Transcript - July 22, "His Own Worst Enemy" by Mokey

Aislinn View Member Profile	Jul 22 2006, 08:31 PM Post #1
Chief Cat Herder Posts: 3,514 Joined: 10:28am August 6, 2005 Location: In the Corner Booth - home of the elusive Holy Grain!	* Witherwings has joined #lounge * Topic is: "His Own Worst Enemy" by Mokey - Scribbulus chat * Topic set by Aislinn [Sun Apr 9 13:10:46 2006] * gryffindelle has joined #lounge * Mokey has joined #lounge <SeverineSnape> hello! <Aislinn> Yay! <gryffindelle> hi <Aislinn> Hi folks! <Aislinn> !halfop Mokey <Witherwings> Hey! <gryffindelle> I feel so bad, I can only stay for a couple minutes <Aislinn> well, we're glad you came, if only for a few.... * Mokey has quit [Bye] <Aislinn> Have to put on my robes <Aislinn> there, thats better * SeverineSnape blinks owlishly <Witherwings> Come back Mokey! <gryffindelle> Although I don't agree with the harrycrux theory, I thought she made some very good points <SeverineSnape> Ravenclaw robes I see * Addreamy has joined #lounge <gryffindelle> lol * Moriah has joined #lounge <gryffindelle> sry * GregoryTheSmarmy has joined #lounge <Moriah> Mokey says she's on her way <Moriah> She's having problems connecting <Addreamy> mokey says to tell you she's having troublconnecting <GregoryTheSmarmy> hello all <Addreamy> yeah <Addreamy> lol <Moriah> haha <gryffindelle> ok <GregoryTheSmarmy> heeh <gryffindelle> nice talking, bye * gryffindelle left #lounge [] <Aislinn> how is everyone tonight? <Addreamy> not bad <GregoryTheSmarmy> I'm good... you? *** Mokey has joined #lounge <Mokey> Hi everyone! <Moriah> Good, how about you, Aislinn? <SeverineSnape> freezing! <Witherwings> Swell <Aislinn> great! our author is back! <GregoryTheSmarmy> no wait, I'm not good, what am I saying... hahah <Moriah> Yay Mokey! <Addreamy> lol, silly! <GregoryTheSmarmy> heys Mokey <Mokey> hey! <Mokey> sorry was having problems staying connected <Aislinn> we usually just chat amongst ourselves for the first few minutes, in order to give people a chance to get here <Mokey> cool <GregoryTheSmarmy> right, makes sense <Witherwings> Who brought the dip? <GregoryTheSmarmy> lol <Moriah> Can we just fangirl Mokey in the meantime then? * Addreamy hands over the chips <SeverineSnape> I have coffee... <GregoryTheSmarmy> I forgot, I wanted to get a snack... <Mokey> lool Mo <Aislinn> fangirl away <SeverineSnape> Fangirling is aloowed for the next 15 minutes <Witherwings> I made punch <Moriah> Mokey rocks my work <SeverineSnape> allowed, too <GregoryTheSmarmy> yeah we can! woot! Maggie so coolness * SeverineSnape giggles <Moriah> world too <Mokey> you rock my work too Mo! <Moriah> hahahah * Addreamy thinks the world of mags *** Islwyn13 has joined #lounge <Aislinn> hehehehe <GregoryTheSmarmy> wait, do I have to remember to call you Mokey? * Moriah is snorting again <Aislinn> hi islwyn! <Mokey> and greggy is like yeah coolness ;) <Aislinn> welcome back <Mokey> hi islwyn <Islwyn13> thanks <Addreamy> dang - I can't remember stuff like that! <Islwyn13> and Hi <GregoryTheSmarmy> yeah me neither <Addreamy> hi Islwyn! <Islwyn13> Hey, Addreamy * Mokey has quit [Bye] <Aislinn> that's why its posted there for you, peeps! * Val_Halla has joined #lounge <GregoryTheSmarmy> oops maggie... <Aislinn> uh oh - and there she goes again <Moriah> Doh! *** Mokey has joined #lounge <Moriah> wb <Aislinn> and she's back! <Mokey> ty! <SeverineSnape> you need to hold on tight, you know, grab one of the handlebars on the walls <Moriah> hehe <Mokey> lol * Addreamy hopes this isn't going to be a bumpy ride..... <Addreamy> she forgot her dramamine! <Mokey> :P <Addreamy> hehehehe <Aislinn> <Moriah> Mokes is an awesome writer <Aislinn> yes she is! <Addreamy> very, very true <GregoryTheSmarmy> yeah she is <GregoryTheSmarmy> :) <Mokey> <GregoryTheSmarmy> you deserve all the praise girl... <Mokey> aww thanksage <GregoryTheSmarmy> so do I have to remember to call you Mokey all the time? <Mokey> you can call me flower if you want to * Professor_Nigellus has joined #lounge <GregoryTheSmarmy> lol <Moriah> Aw! <Aislinn> hi professor! <Moriah> Flower is my fav <Mokey> hi professor <Addreamy> you are NOT a skunk, mokey! <Mokey> love flower <Mokey> lol Addy <Professor_Nigellus> hi all <Addreamy> hi! <Moriah> Hey <Mokey> hello! * TheGuruOfSloth has joined #lounge <SeverineSnape> Hi Phineas!!! * SeverineSnape has quit [Bye] <Addreamy> hey slothboy! * SeverineSnape has joined #lounge <Moriah> Hi Slothy! <TheGuruOfSloth> hello! <Mokey> Hi Slothman! <Aislinn> hey, sloth! * SeverineSnape has quit [Bye] <Aislinn> this is more of an RG group than the RG group was this afternoon <Addreamy> lol - too true! <Moriah> Aw, I completely forgot. Sory Aislinn <Mokey> oh me too <Aislinn> no problem, moriah <Addreamy> it was a great chat, though <Mokey> sorry <Moriah> LJ wasn't there to send skype reminders <Mokey> oh good! <Aislinn> good discussioni <Moriah> Good! * SeverineSnape has joined #lounge <Addreamy> and I never thought of it! Sorry gang! <Moriah> No worries * SeverineSnape has quit [Bye] <Aislinn> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You’re not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you’ll be able to type again soon. <Aislinn> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod * SeverineSnape has joined #lounge <Aislinn> You won’t be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like “Meg got it” in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. <Aislinn> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation <Aislinn> The essay we are discussing in this chat explores the Harrycrux debate from the perspective that Harry is a Horcrux. It provides evidence to defend the author’s version of the theory, and attempts to explain how Harry became a Horcrux. The essay is designed to answer three of the most frequently asked questions regarding the "Harry is a Horcrux" theory. <Aislinn> Tonight, we are fortunate to have the author of this intriguing essay here to discuss it with us. Mokey, besides being the spinner of interesting theories, is also one of the Lily and Stag Inn Reading Group leaders. Thanks for joining us, Mokey! <Aislinn> Let’s try to work our way through the essay in the order that Mokey presents her theories. How about if we start with a question about the interpretation of the prophecy – can you tell us a little bit about your views that the wording supports the Harrycrux theory? <Aislinn> phew - I'm tired now <Aislinn> chat away <Islwyn13> fans Aislinn <Aislinn> lol <SeverineSnape> I think we need a minute to read all that <Addreamy> I agree! <Witherwings> scoffs at slow readers <Aislinn> it is a lot - sorry <Moriah> I think that a lot of us as fans take the prophecy at face value but Mokey did a great job of digging deeper and trying to figure out what it meant , especially the bit about "none can live while the other survives" <Islwyn13> hehe, I'm trying not to jump in here too quick - I'm still on the Harry is not a Horcrux band wagon, but want to see what others think first <Mokey> well that's part that has always bothered me Moriah <Addreamy> I have always found the wording of that prophecy intriguing <SeverineSnape> Well the line "neither can live while the other survives".... <Addreamy> especially since Jo made such a big deal out of it. <Mokey> because they both appear to be simultaneously living <SeverineSnape> I do think that if anything is evidence, that is. <Moriah> Definitely, Addy <Islwyn13> they are existing, but neither one free to live their lives freely... <Addreamy> yeah - that "neinther can live" line....definitely has bothered me. <Mokey> right, Addy when she said that she worded it very carefully, it makes me think that there is soething more too it <Islwyn13> they are the weight that hangs over the other's head <Addreamy> and yet - if prophecies doen't need to come true...then why the precise wording? <Aislinn> that is kind of the way I see it, Islwyn <Mokey> that's a good point Addy * DarkSeraph has joined #lounge <Addreamy> Islwyn - that's the way I took it at first also...just that they are a shadow over each other <DarkSeraph> Good evening all. <Addreamy> but the more I think about it, the more I wonder <Islwyn13> right, so the conflict must be resolved * kimberlyhuff has joined #lounge <Aislinn> I got the impression from Dumbledore that if either or both party buy into the prophecy,, then the wording of the prophecy becomes important <Islwyn13> and it won't be until one of them can no longer fight, i.e. is destroyed <SeverineSnape> I think that because LV set the prophecy in motion, it now has to come true <Islwyn13> Heya, DarkSeraph *** mlwl has joined #lounge <Islwyn13> and kimberlyhuff <SeverineSnape> hi mel! <Mokey> I agree Aislinn and I got the impression that the prophecy became important the miinute LV tried to prevent it <mlwl> nickserve IDENTIFY qwe3nb3e <Islwyn13> it does now, I agree, but only because neither one will be at piece until it's fulfilled <mlwl> hi all! <Mokey> hi mel! <DarkSeraph> The prophecy is only important because LV believes in it. <Mokey> hi kimberlyhuff <Witherwings> Hi Mel! <DarkSeraph> Otherwise, it's qutie useless. <Mokey> hi Dark Seraph <DarkSeraph> Hey Mokey. <Islwyn13> totally agreed, DarkSeraph <Islwyn13> LV believes it's true, and so won't rest until Harry is gone <DarkSeraph> Yeah. *** kimberlyhuff left #lounge [] <Islwyn13> harry knows LV won't rest, and so can't rest himself until LV is gone <Witherwings> So if its a completely self-fulfilling prophecy, was Trelawney' s prediction just random? <Addreamy> and it may be that -- but I dont' think so. <DarkSeraph> Also, may I ask what the topic is? The phophecy? <Mokey> but there is a difference between resting and living <Islwyn13> that really depends on JKR's view of them...I don't think so <Addreamy> I think there may be a nother layer to that prophecy <Aislinn> its Mokey's essay, dark seraph <Mokey> the prophecy doesn't say, neither will be at peace while the other survives <Islwyn13> true, but again, I think neither of them can live because this thing is always hovering over them... <Aislinn> about Harry being a Horcrux - right now we're talking about the prophecy <DarkSeraph> flies to find mokey's essay I feel so gauche. <Islwyn13> that constant battle <Addreamy> exaclty, mage <Addreamy> mokey <Islwyn13> it has to do with JKR's definition of "live" <SeverineSnape> well you can interpret the word 'live' quite broadly. It can mean 'have a life' <Islwyn13> since she uses both teh words "live" and "survives", I think she's making a distinction <Islwyn13> Survival is, to me, to have life. <Mokey> I agree Islwyn <Islwyn13> Live is to truly experience that life <DarkSeraph> Of course, it could be a "mere" survival. <Moriah> That's the way I read it too, Islwyn, but I hadn't considered Mokey's way of looking at it. I think she might be right that it has to do with the fact that Voldemort isn't really mortal, therefore not really alive <DarkSeraph> Living isn't the same as being alive. <Addreamy> i agree - and it's difficult to tell what interpretation of "live" is meant <Professor_Nigellus> The two of them are connected through the scar, so neither ones life is fully his own. <DarkSeraph> But that's all dependent on JKR's own opinion. <Mokey> exactly Mo, because Fudge has wondered the same thing <SeverineSnape> yes, that is also how Mokey describes it in her essay <Moriah> Yeah <Islwyn13> So, Moriah, you think Harry is living, but LV is only surviving? not really alive? <Mokey> about whether or not LV is really alive <Mokey> exactly Professor, I agree <SeverineSnape> Or do they simply both share the same life now? <Addreamy> That's a very good point, Mokey. CAN you describe what LV is doing as "living" if his soul is so fragmented? <Mokey> I think that they are connected by much more, but neither is living as their own person right now <Moriah> Yeah, which is where I differ from Mokey. I don't think he's a Horcrux or has a Horcrux in him or on him(although Mokey has me considering it more than most) <Mokey> Addy I think he is more existing <Mokey> as Fudge said: dumbledore won't explain it properly <mlwl> I don't think that any of us would say that LV is living... <Aislinn> there is definitely a connection through the scar, but whether its a Horcrux is where I'm doubtful <mlwl> I always wonder if he really feels if he is "living" himself yet... or will ever <Addreamy> yeah - that's what I think...so does that fit into the prophecy, then? <Mokey> well I don't think the scar is a horcrux <Mokey> because it wasn't there before the curse rebounded <DarkSeraph> I'm doubtful of the "Harry is a Horcrux" theory of course... <Moriah> There's so much evidence for it, as Mokey pointed out. Like Gregorya said in her post in Mokey's thread, I just don't want it to be true <Aislinn> so you think its all of Harry? <Mokey> I don't think you can invent an object when you make a horcrux <Mokey> yes Aisllinn <DarkSeraph> One would think that making a horcrux has to be very precise....I don't know if it can be made haphazrdly. <Islwyn13> Casting the spell to create a horcrux has been described as very difficult magic...why do you think it could be done accidentally? <Mokey> mel, I think that the only LV can live is if his horcruxes are destroyed <Mokey> because he will be mortal again <Islwyn13> but still with only a seventh of his soul <Mokey> interesting point Dark Seraph, but a lot of the things Lv does have been halphazardly <Addreamy> you know - I'm not so sure it's that it was done accidentally - I think everything was set up to make a horcrux that night...and Harry was simply the accidental receipient <Islwyn13> He will only be mortal because he is his own seventh horcrux <Addreamy> if he was.... <Islwyn13> But do we know of any other spells that can be held cocked like that... <Moriah> Yeah, I was just about to type exactly what Addy said <mlwl> we don't really know HOW that magic works, though... it is possible you have to prepare the horcrux object BEFORE the killing, isn't it? <Addreamy> lol <Mokey> I agree Addy, and I think DD said as much, but I don't know the exact quote <Islwyn13> that are cast before they are needed and just let loose at the desired time <DarkSeraph> It depends. We know accidental magic can happen i.e. Aunt Marge. <Val_Halla> I think when JKR said the prophecy was carefully worded she meant carefully made ambiguous, lol <Mokey> I think it was intentional that Slughorn did not go into detail on how horcruxes are made <Moriah> haha, good point, Val <Islwyn13> yes, but that never seemed like difficult magic to me...I thikn a horcrux has to be deliberate <DarkSeraph> Me too. <DarkSeraph> very* delibarate. <Islwyn13> especially since you have to tear your soul, first <Islwyn13> you can't do that accidentally, I don't think <mlwl> we don't know if it's FIRST, though <Addreamy> I agree, Mokey - and I think we'll find out a bit more about that next book <Moriah> But what if the Horcrux spell is cast at the same time as the killing curse? And LV just missed the object? <mlwl> maybe you prepare to make the horcrux before you kill... we don't know yet <Addreamy> That's what I'm wondering Moriah <DarkSeraph> Dark Magic like that doesn't seem (to me) to be the sort of stuff people can just fling around. <Moriah> Hm, I don't know if that works either... just thinking out loud <Mokey> it makes sense Mo <Addreamy> or lost control of it when the AK backfired <Witherwings> Yes because of all the mystery surrounding just how Hordruxes are made <Mokey> well Dark Seraph I wouldn't think so either, but LV is so accustomed to dark magic <Islwyn13> Since it's supposed to be so complex, though, I wonder if you can cast it simultaneously with anohter spell <Mokey> he uses it quite recklessly <DarkSeraph> Really? <DarkSeraph> It seems to me that he's been quite delibarate thus far. <Aislinn> you mean because of the diary? <Moriah> I have my doubts too but I think it's possible since there's so much we just don't know <mlwl> exactly <DarkSeraph> Waiting for significant kills and placing them into very specific vessels. <Mokey> that's one thing Aislinn, but also DD is always pointing out different dissapointments <mlwl> there are lots of things that are "magic" that aren't even spells <Aislinn> there are some that think the making of a Horcrux involves a potion <mlwl> it is entirely possible <Addreamy> It makes me wonder, though, what object he had there ready to be the vessel... <Moriah> I wonder that too, Addy <Aislinn> and is it still there? <Mokey> I think it was something that belonged to Gryffindor <Islwyn13> See, I'm not sure he brough tit with him... <Addreamy> exactly <Mokey> I think it was at the house already <Addreamy> hmmm <Moriah> And Aislinn, that would be an interesting way to make Snape's role even bigger in 7 <Islwyn13> I don't think he prepared to make a horcrux when he killed his father and Grandparents...because it was after that that he asked Slughorn about them *** Lizzieangel90 has joined #lounge <Val_Halla> But how would he know of this object? From Peter? <Aislinn> yes it would moriah <Islwyn13> But I believe he used taht splitting of his soul to make one <Mokey> interesting question Val <Moriah> Are we sure he used that murder to make a Horcrus in the first place? <mlwl> yeah, I think Pettigrew may know <Mokey> I think it's just dumbldore speculating <Islwyn13> So I'm not sure I buy that the spell has to be held in limbo before the murder takes place <Moriah> Horcrux <mlwl> or LV himself may tell us... he liked that evil soliloquy a tlo <Moriah> haha, too true, mlwl <mlwl> oops lot <Mokey> well even if you say it after the murder Islwyn, Harry still could have been made a horcrux <Islwyn13> by Snape casting it, yes? *** DarkSeraph has quit [Bye] <Islwyn13> but how can another person capture a part of someone else's soul and make a horcrux from it? <Mokey> even if LV said the incantation after he murdered Lily <Val_Halla> I can't see what reason Snape would have to make a horcrux <Aislinn> why would snape know the spell? I get the impression that almost no one knows how to do it <Mokey> he could have misdirected his wand as Mo said <Islwyn13> he couldn't, he had no body, no use of a wand <mlwl> when it comes down to it, the whole situation just seems REALLY fishy. I don't think JKR would have left such an obvious "ONE missing" gap if it wasn't huely significant <mlwl> hugely <Addreamy> hmmm. Now that's something I hadn't thought of. I dont' think Snape did it - I think it was more, yeah, a misdirecation of wands. <Mokey> well Aislinn Lupin and Sirius tell Harry that Snape knew a lot of dark magic befroe he came to hogwarts <Islwyn13> But LV had the wand pointed at Harry, hence the scar <Islwyn13> so what do you mean misdirection? I'm not following, sorry <mlwl> we don't know it SOUL is a horcrux <Aislinn> LV doesn't seem the type to confide what he is doing, though <mlwl> no, not until he thinks he is "winning" <Val_Halla> What "leverage" would this have given Snape? Surely you don't think he could have blackmailed LV <Addreamy> of course, I'm not thinking Snape was there.... <Moriah> But Snape is the type to snoop around, make connections and figure things out <Addreamy> not at the time <Islwyn13> Yeah, I dont' think he was <Mokey> well if Snape knew that LV had a horcrux that LV didn't know about Val, Snape could have complete control over him <Mokey> over his life even <Islwyn13> I think only Pettigrew could have been there aside from teh Potters and LV... <Aislinn> so he would have learned what lv planned, and, what - followed him there to stop him? <Addreamy> I don't see him knowing the hididng place - yeah, right <Islwyn13> Pettigrew was the Secrek Keeper, why would he tell Snape where the potters were hiding? <Mokey> if Snape was responsible I don't think he was thinking of all that at the moment though <Mokey> Peter told LV <Val_Halla> How? LV had other Horcruxes and he could kill Snape and it wouldn't affect any horcrux Snape made <Islwyn13> But he would have had to tell Snape personally <Moriah> Well, as soon as we start saying who we think was there, it's all guessing because we again don't know. I don't think it really proves either point <Islwyn13> LV couldn't have told Snape <Mokey> and Snape was one of LV's most trusted DE's <Aislinn> right islwyn <Islwyn13> but LV wsan't the Secret Keeper <mlwl> good point, Moriah <Mokey> I think Snape owuld have been at any "meeting" between LV and Peter <Mokey> so he would have been told directly <Addreamy> hmmm. <Mokey> I agree Moriah <Moriah> I think Snape would have figured it out himself with all of LV's talk of becoming immortal. Snape would want to know how and would look into it himself <Islwyn13> Not necessarily, though...LV trusts no one, really <Mokey> the reason I stated the Snape hypothesis, was merely to show that there may be more than one way to make an accidentaly horcrux <Val_Halla> You don't think Snape genuinely believed Sirius to be the traitor in PoA? <Aislinn> but the only way he could have been at godric's hollow would have been to be told the location directly by Peter ** SeverineSnape has quit [Bye] <Addreamy> no, I don't, Valhalla <Mokey> no I don't <Islwyn13> Oh, that's a good point, Vala...I think he did <Aislinn> so unless LV specifically ordered him to do that, I can't see snape knowing <Moriah> If Snape is on the said of good, I do. If he's on LV's side, then I don't <Mokey> I think Snape is on his own side <Addreamy> Actually - I don't think it depends on that, Moriahl. I think it depends on how "in" he was with LV. <Addreamy> I think he knew Peter was "in" <Addreamy> and he could know that no matter which side he was on <Aislinn> I think he is too, mokey <Moriah> My reason for saying that is his willingness for sending an innocent man to the dementors <Val_Halla> OK, I confess I think Snape is on the side of good, even if he is a jerk <Mokey> in PoA, McGonagal mentions a spy that told DD that LV was coming after the potters, I think that spy was Snape <Addreamy> I don't think that matters to Snape, quite honestly. His hatred is too great <Mokey> but I don't think that makes him good, but it would show he knew wormtail was the secret keeper <Moriah> But that's just my opinion. I know it's possible for him to be on the good side and still a complete jerk. I just don't want him to be that terrible * GregoryTheSmarmy has quit [Bye] * Lizzieangel90 has quit [Bye] <Addreamy> (my jury is still out on Snape, btw) * GregoryTheSmarmy has joined #lounge <GregoryTheSmarmy> oops... <Aislinn> let's back up a bit into the earlier part of the essay <Moriah> Yeah, sorry <Aislinn> Another assertion that is made in the essay is that Harry’s inner monologues are unusual in that the are held in first and second person voice. Let’s discuss this theory. <Islwyn13> I'm not sure it's done deliberately, but it might be... <Val_Halla> This is the most convincing part of the essay, IMO <Addreamy> Now, I did find that interesting. I could go both ways on that. <GregoryTheSmarmy> I really like what you wrote about that Mokes <Islwyn13> Sometimes I refer to myself in teh second person, usually when I've done something stupid <Mokey> thanks <Addreamy> I did too, Mokey <Aislinn> me too islwyn * TheGuruOfSloth has quit [Bye] * TheGuruOfSloth has joined #lounge <GregoryTheSmarmy> hehehe <Islwyn13> It might be used as more of a tonal thing than a plot device, but it could be either way, I admite <TheGuruOfSloth> oops, slothfulness got me... <Moriah> I liked it too but I disagree with your conclusion. I love that Harry, as himself not as LV, has these inter-struggles and isn't always the perfect hero <Aislinn> wb, guru <Addreamy> I find it totally believable that Harry would hear that "tiny little vowice" and just think of it as part of himself - but have it not be... <GregoryTheSmarmy> oh... I'll have to agree with Moriah <Aislinn> I think it is very common for a person to argue with themselves in an internal dialogue <Mokey> but the thing that got my attention is that the first person voice is almost always good, and the second person is almost always "bad" <GregoryTheSmarmy> the dialogues are interesting, but I don't think LV has anything to do with it <TheGuruOfSloth> hmm, the fact that the voice always seems to have a different attitude, a seperate take on things, makes me want to believe this theory <Addreamy> my first inclination is to say it's an internal struggle. But Jo likes to use double meanings and interpretations SO much...I wonder. <GregoryTheSmarmy> yeah that is a good point <Val_Halla> I think everyone talks to himself/herself occasionally... <GregoryTheSmarmy> I know I do <Witherwings> But it's interesting to think that harry's inner voice is ready to kill Sirius but not Peter... <Aislinn> see, that is where you lost me mokey, because the second person in the scene about the prefect was the fair voice <Mokey> there is another example of the first person vioce being "good" in book one <Val_Halla> but it's interesting that Harry's thoughts are represented as two voices <Islwyn13> He'd had more time for his hate of Sirius to build <mlwl> that is such a good point, Mokey. the "I" is usually quite affirmative for Harry. He uses "you" when he is insecure <Moriah> Yeah, it is a good point. The first person/second person thing is what trips up my line of thinking a bit <Islwyn13> Peter was a surprise <Addreamy> It is - and consistently so. <Islwyn13> Agreed, Aislinn, about hte prefect scene <Mokey> se to me Aislinn the second person voice saying "Ron has something you don't" seemed to be egging harry on to feel uneasy about his relationship with Ron <Witherwings> True, he had time to brood over Sirius <Aislinn> that wasn't how I read that at all <Moriah> Hm <TheGuruOfSloth> yeah, I kind of got that too Mokey <GregoryTheSmarmy> yeah good point Mokes <Aislinn> I saw it as him having a fair voice judging the choice that was made <Islwyn13> Me, too, Ais <Islwyn13> He didn't want to resent Ron for being made prefect, and was trying to find th ejustification <Mokey> I saw it as bringing the conflict back to the surface <GregoryTheSmarmy> but how fair is it, saying "Ron has something you don't"? <TheGuruOfSloth> I saw it as, "this is what I get for risking my neck" <GregoryTheSmarmy> lol <Addreamy> I did - until I read it a second time...and realized it could actually mean something else <Mokey> right guru, something like that <Mokey> bitter <TheGuruOfSloth> yes <Aislinn> but if it was meant to do that, why did it help resolve it for him by the time Ron came back? <Islwyn13> But it was already at teh surface...he had just finished saying, I've done WAY more than Ron has! when the voice of reason popped up <Addreamy> yeah <GregoryTheSmarmy> Harry doesn't think like that, he doesn't want to be rewerded... <Aislinn> exactly islwyn <Val_Halla> I agree Isl <Mokey> well that's the affirmitive Islwyn <Mokey> then the second person brings about the insecurity <mlwl> well.... most of the time he doesn't GTS, but he is still a relatively normal teenager! <Mokey> teh sort of base emotions <Islwyn13> it's the first person voice that's saying "I've done Way more than Ron, why is he made prefect?!" when the second person voice comes in and says, essentially, well, there must be a reason * Addreamy has quit [Bye] <Val_Halla> I thought "ron has something you don't" was his way of getting his ego in check and pointing out Ron has good qualities, too * Addreamy has joined #lounge <Professor_Nigellus> When Harry was debating with himself about Ginny, the second voice was telling him to be loyal to his friend. That dosn't sound like Voldemort to me. <Islwyn13> agreed, Val <Islwyn13> And prof Nigellu <Islwyn13> uh, Nigellus Can't type today <GregoryTheSmarmy> that's true Mel <Mokey> actually the last thing that was said before the second person voice is "maybe DD deosn't choose prefects because they've gotten into loads of dangerous situations" <Mokey> and that is speaking fairly <Mokey> IMO <Val_Halla> But still, Harry's inner monologues are often more dialogues than monologues <Mokey> and then the second person comes in and flattens him! <Aislinn> right, but since when is LV a voice of reason or fairness? <Addreamy> when he's trying to be persuasive and charming <Moriah> The dialogue point adds to Mokey's argument <Islwyn13> Well, he's debating with himself, Val, so the two halves of himself are having a dialogue to resolve it <Mokey> well see I don't read the "fair" line as LV's voice Aislinn * LJ has joined #lounge <Aislinn> but those are the second person lines, mokey <Mokey> it's not really coming from first or second, so it's kind of ambiguous <GregoryTheSmarmy> heys Laurie <LJ> hey <Mokey> Hi LJ! <Addreamy> hi Laurie! <Mokey> well not exactly Aislinn <Aislinn> lol - guess we just read that scene very differrently <Mokey> "maybe Dumbldore doesn't chose prefects because they've gotten themselves in loads of situations" is actaully third person * AnguaTLC has joined #lounge <Mokey> it's "Ron must have something you don't" that's second person. <Aislinn> so now he's having 3 voices talking? <Addreamy> poor kid! <Aislinn> who's the third? <Islwyn13> It's in the same paragraph, I think it's the secod voice <Islwyn13> pg. 167, just looked it up...it says, "But maybe," said the small voice fairly, Maybe DD doesn't choose prefecrts....etc, etc...Ron must have something you don't <Islwyn13> same vocal perspective <Mokey> I think it's still his first person attitude, Aislinn <Islwyn13> why would JKR have first- and second-person perspectives in the same paragraph, teh same thought <Mokey> but there is a pause between those two thoughts Islwyn <Aislinn> I read it the way islwyn just quoted <Islwyn13> but not a change in PoV <Islwyn13> Just a pause, IMO <Aislinn> let's check out another part of that section of the essay: Harry’s impulse to kill Sirius but not Wormtail is presented as possible evidence that Harrycrux is responsible for the various impulses. What do folks think of this? <Islwyn13> As I said, I think he wanted to kill Sirius becuase he had had time to think about Sirius' betrayal, to grow to hate him completely... <Val_Halla> It's possible. <Islwyn13> Learnign taht Pettigrew was actually responsible was a complete surprise, a shock...no real time to adjust <Mokey> but how would he have done it? <mlwl> I think that's possible... otherwise, why would he distinguish between the two at that point? <Val_Halla> but Islwyn has a good point too <Mokey> how did he know that he was capable of killinig sirius with just a wand? <mlwl> that is possible, Is, but Harry can be VERY impulsive in those situations <Islwyn13> He may not have... <Islwyn13> It may have been iinstinct <Aislinn> I did wonder about that as well, mokey <Mokey> one would think that the shock of Pettigrew would have made harry act more impulsively <Islwyn13> I might pick up a knife to defend myself, without any idea of how to fight with a knife, out of instinct <Islwyn13> but he was stunned...kind of the deer in the headlights reaction <mlwl> I agree, Mokey. it usually does for him <Islwyn13> stunned into inaction <Val_Halla> A wizard knows to point his wand at whatever he wants to junx, hex, etc. The heart seems the natural target for killing. * Ginny-From-A-Bottle has joined #lounge <mlwl> we never SEE him like that, however <Moriah> I wondered how he thought he could do it too. The LV connection is the only possiblity (other than instinct, but the killing curse is too complex) that makes any sense <Islwyn13> He didn't have time to transfer the hate he had for Sirius to Pettigrew...he was getting so much information so fast, he was just stunned <Mokey> but again we see the second person voice <Aislinn> I think the big difference was that he was willing to think about killing in vengeance for his parent's, but did not want to see others sacrifice themselves for that <Mokey> saying "do it now" about Sirius <Islwyn13> also a good point, Ais <Addreamy> I like that, Mokey - that scene always bothered me... <Addreamy> it didn't fit with what I thought I knew about Harry, somehow <Islwyn13> Harry knew he was losing his nerve to kill Sirius, and was trying to encourage himself to do what he thought was ok at the time <Mokey> yeah I agree exactly Addy <Islwyn13> We've never seen Harry faced with confronting the person he thought betrayed his parents to their deaths, thoguh <Islwyn13> so we wouldnt' have ever seen this time of righteous anger from him before <Aislinn> I don't think he ever could have brought himself to do it, even if Lupin hadn't shown up <Addreamy> true - but Harry had been faced with LV before.... <Mokey> good point Addy! <Islwyn13> Only kind of...in PS, it was Quirrel/mort <mlwl> no, but we HAVE seen it since, twice Islwyn <Islwyn13> and he was 11 and more afraid than vindictively angry <Moriah> He knew that Peter had <Val_Halla> Harry had a wand and Sirius didn't, <mlwl> with Sirius's death and Dumbledore's <Islwyn13> and in CoS, it was Tom Riddle, not really LV, and again, it was a surprise to him <Addreamy> exactly. <Val_Halla> LV was not helpless when Harry met him <Addreamy> I agree, mel <mlwl> and on both occasions, he has reacted instantly, or tried to <Mokey> but the interesting thing about when he faces Quirrelmort is that he talks to himself in the first person very resolutely <mlwl> this is true <Mokey> In CoS we see more sloppiness from LV <Mokey> Riddle didn't even remember that phoenix tears have healin powers <Val_Halla> Well he was only 16 <Islwyn13> I think we must also consider that Harry becomes a teenager in PoA, and has more of an emotional lack of control as a result, I thihnk <Mokey> true but he had already done some very calculated things <Islwyn13> he did after the fact about the tears <Islwyn13> his arrogance leads to blindness... <Islwyn13> he stopped paying attention because he thought he'd won <Mokey> I agree with that 100% Islwyn <mlwl> 16 is by FAR old enogh to know that, particularly in a magical school <Mokey> it's LV's hubris that leads to his mistakes <Val_Halla> Tom had almost reached his goal. In his excitement he forgot about phoenix tears <mlwl> yeah, Islwyn <Moriah> Yeah, true of a lot of HP villians <Val_Halla> i'm too slow <Islwyn13> He may have used first person exclusively because there was no debate within him... <Islwyn13> I would have to reread that sectoin again <Islwyn13> but can it be said that, when he is clear in his thoughts, they are always first person, and when he's in a dilemma, a second person perspective comes in? <Mokey> but that part interests me because it would have looked nicer in second person <Aislinn> He also could have been thinking [I have to] do it now! in the shreiking shack <Aislinn> thus first person <Islwyn13> oh, quite true <Islwyn13> though I do thin khe was egging himself on <Mokey> but what he tought was "do it now!" <AnguaTLC> But he didn't do it. <Moriah> Yeah, I think so, Islwyn.... definitely possible and something to look at <Islwyn13> more of a kind of "do it now, before you lose your nerve!" <AnguaTLC> Which seems to show there were two points of view in him. <Islwyn13> But aren't there in all of us? when we are unsure of our coruse of actin? <Addreamy> I agree - it really sounded like a struggle to me..... <Islwyn13> uh, action <Aislinn> well, its not surprising that he would argue with himself about something as brutal as killing <Islwyn13> true <Aislinn> I don't see that as something that would involve an outside force <Islwyn13> part of him wanted to do it, to avenge his parents <Aislinn> exactly <Mokey> yes I agree Angua, and these two points of view seem very particularly set <Aislinn> but his loving nature couldn't bring himself to do it <Addreamy> well, see it doesn't HAVE to - but it could have. <Islwyn13> but the bigger part of him knew it was wrong, that it wouldn't bring his paretns back...that it owuld make him a murderer, too <Addreamy> and that's the whole dilemma <AnguaTLC> Reading that the first time, I got the impression of a "tempting devil" telling him to kill. <Moriah> Maybe subconsciously, yeah, Islwyn <AnguaTLC> (not that first impressions are necessarily correct) <Addreamy> it would put an extra spin - and extra emphasis on things...if that "tempting devil" were actually externally driven <Mokey> me to angua <Mokey> it just doens't seem like a Harry impulse <AnguaTLC> Yes, it certainly would. <Addreamy> i know, Mokey <Islwyn13> why not? He slugged Malfoy in OotP <Aislinn> having it be an outside influence , to me, takes away the emphasis on choice and personal responsbility that is woven throughout the books <Islwyn13> he let his anger get away from him <mlwl> killing is FAR different from punching <Addreamy> ah - but that's different. <Mokey> but he didn't kill him <Addreamy> exactly <mlwl> which is just a visceral <Moriah> Because Harry usually reacts, not acts <Islwyn13> which, again, is why he didn't <Islwyn13> that was a severe enough action that it gave him pause... <Mokey> I agree Mo <mlwl> Moriah, that just got me thinking.... it is one reason I think he has traits of a tragic hero <Islwyn13> well, the tempting voice doesn't take away harry's freedom of choice <Moriah> And Jo says it in his thought pattern that this is the first time he wanted to attack first <Islwyn13> it just tries to influence taht choice <Addreamy> you're absolutely right, Islwyn <Islwyn13> not that I agree that's what we're dealing with, but it is possible <mlwl> think of Hamlet! He put off acting through the entire play, and when he finally chooses to ACT rather than react, he dies. <Mokey> but don't you find that anomoly interesting Mo? <Mokey> true mel <Moriah> I do, and good point, mlwl <Aislinn> I think it totally takes away the recognition that all of us have a light and dark side, all within ourselves <AnguaTLC> Either all those "without thinking about it, he did such and such..." mean something, or else it's a dramatic device that JKR really likes a lot. <Islwyn13> I agree with that, Aislinn <Mokey> I think that Harry has his own dark side to an extent <Val_Halla> I tend to agree with you, Aislinn <Mokey> but not an evil side <Aislinn> as does everyone mokey <Addreamy> I agree, Angua - she does it too many times <Aislinn> he doesn't get away with not having one <Mokey> I think the evil within him would be LV <Aislinn> which is why I think that the voice in him is his own shadow side <Islwyn13> why not his own dark side, though? <Moriah> I agree as well, Angua. There's something to his instincts <Mokey> well I think it's too intense, and too dark <Islwyn13> that would imply that, withotu LV inside him, Harry would be all sunshine and light <Mokey> like punching malfoy, that's all Harry IMO <Islwyn13> and I think Harry has his own darkness <Witherwings> He would still have a dark side but LV makes it darker <Witherwings> maybe, I mean <Mokey> but killing Sirius, that would be LV <mlwl> it's really just semantics, Isl, but I think they're avoiding "dark" because he isn't a dark wizard.... the wizarding world has an interesting distinction that we aren't afforded <mlwl> that's a good point, WW <Val_Halla> Harry has had a lot of mistreatment in his life. He'd be a saint if he didn't have his very own dark impulses. <Aislinn> but he didn't = that was because he successfully fought his own darkest impulses <Addreamy> Not necessarily, Islwyn. There's a difference between having a dark side and the kind of murderous rage feeling that we're discussing. <Mokey> I agreee witherwings <Islwyn13> but not necessarily...LV isn't the only one with thoughts of revenge <Moriah> I see what you're saying Mokey, but I do like the idea that Harry could easily be evil if he made certain decisions. That he's just as capable of it as anyone else <Islwyn13> harry has found out that his parents best friend betrayed them and took them from Harry...He's enraged, he's 13, he's not thinking clearly <AnguaTLC> I think it's in-character for Harry to feel murderous rage. But I still think his impulses are suspicious. <Val_Halla> Harry's murderous rage was only momentary. That seems normal to me in the circumstances. <AnguaTLC> The voices he hears in his head. <Islwyn13> He's face-to-face with someone who betrayed them! that's an intense situation <Islwyn13> Agreed, Val <Aislinn> agreed val <AnguaTLC> But there's a difference between feeling angry and a voice saying "do it now." <AnguaTLC> To me, anyway. <Mokey> but why is he so different with Wormtail? <Aislinn> I think that was just showing how hard a decision it is to face <Islwyn13> Again, because he hadn't had time to grow to hate him, he waws just surprised <Val_Halla> Wormtail is a pathetic spectacle, begging for his life. <Aislinn> he thinks he's supposed to do it, and trying to psyche himself up to do it, but can't <Islwyn13> And he ahd already somewhat defeated that impulse to kill Sirius, why would he have to renew that inward battle again? <AnguaTLC> I think the rage he felt was all Harry, but the "instruction" to kill... I think might have been not-Harry. <Islwyn13> AGreed, Ais, that's what I think is going on in his head <Mokey> I agree angua <Moriah> I think that hatred could easily have been transferred to Wormtail... even more so since Sirius was innocent all along and Wormtail framed him. But Harry had time to think and be rational <Islwyn13> Nah, I have to say I agree with Ais on this one (sorry! sheepish grin) <AnguaTLC> What about when he faces the snake in book 2? * Professor_Nigellus has quit [Bye] <Val_Halla> Harry had also just expended a little anger on stunning Snape. <Aislinn> and the big difference with wormtail was that he was looking out for the people around him <AnguaTLC> (the first snake, not the basilisk) <Islwyn13> Harry doesn't hate easily anyway, I don't think it would have been easy at all to transfer all that hate <Aislinn> which is something that Harry naturally does out of love <Islwyn13> He had to process what he was hearing first <Islwyn13> think of all he was learning in that shack, how overwhelmed he must have felt <Moriah> Oh, I think that Harry does hate easily. He's very rash and emotional <Witherwings> I agree Mokey <Witherwings> He holds a grudge <Islwyn13> Lupin is a werewolf, he's helping Sirius, wait, no, he wasn't helping Sirius...Pettigrew's alive, he betrayed your parents, not Sirius, Lupin and Sirus are goingot kill Pettigrew... <Islwyn13> so much, so fast <AnguaTLC> He is emotional. Like the time he wanted to brain Snape with a cauldron. <mlwl> exactly! * Aislinn has quit [Bye] <Islwyn13> but the hate he had for Sirius was different <Islwyn13> deeper, stronger...he doesn't hate Malfoy like he hated Sirius at first [20:14] <Moriah> I'm not following your logic on that. Sorry, Islwyn [20:14] <Val_Halla> Malfoy didn't kill his family [20:14] <Islwyn13> I can say, "Man, I hate that bully!", and it's a form of hate, but it's not nearly as strong as the hate I would have for someone who murdered someone I loved [20:14] <Islwyn13> both are hate, but one is much stronger [20:15] <Val_Halla> Or break Ron's leg and drag him off [20:15] <Islwyn13> He doesn't hate with teh intensity he did Sirius very easily or often [20:15] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> w/b Aislinn smile [20:15] <AnguaTLC> He seemed to hate Sirius more than Voldemort, but I think that was because Sirius was supposed to be his father's friend. [20:15] <Islwyn13> exactly, there was a betrayal involved [20:15] <Val_Halla> Sirius was disarmed, but I'm sure there was still some fear. Kill him now before he can get the better of you and kill you [20:15] <Islwyn13> someone they should have been able to trust [20:16] <Moriah> So why wouldn't that hatred be transferred to the person who had really done that AND framed his father's true best friend? [20:16] <Islwyn13> I'm sure Harry imagined what it would be like if Ron betrayed him, or how he would NEVER betray them [20:16] <Islwyn13> because he was target-fixated [20:16] * TheGuruOfSloth has quit [Bye] [20:16] <Moriah> Hm, perhaps [20:16] <AnguaTLC> Harry's anger might also have been somewhat satisfied because Sirius and Remus were expressing it so well. [20:16] <Islwyn13> not only would he have had to hate Pettigrew, he was having ot let go of his hate for Sirius [20:16] <AnguaTLC> THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED! and all that. [20:16] * TheGuruOfSloth has joined #lounge [20:16] <Val_Halla> It was a good chunk of time later. He had time to cool off. [20:17] <Islwyn13> it's not like redirecting a stream, it's ending one hate and beginning another [20:17] <Islwyn13> That's true, Angua [20:18] <Islwyn13> the actino became something in front of him, rather than a debate happening within him, and he was able to see it a bit more rationally, a bit more objectively [20:18] <Moriah> Ok, I see what you mean but I still maintain that Harry is rash and emotional but for whatever reason, he was able to spare Wormtail despite that [20:18] <Islwyn13> and he realized his father wouldn't want his two best friends to become killers [20:18] <Aislinn> because of his feelings for his father's friends [20:18] <AnguaTLC> It was one of Harry's best moments. [20:18] <Moriah> Right, ok [20:18] <Islwyn13> quite true smile [20:18] <Aislinn> that is when his tendency to love comes out - when he is protecting others [20:18] <Islwyn13> also true smile [20:18] <Mokey> yeah, you would think that the shock of finding out about womtail would have driven Harry to really DO something, if it was harry who had said "do it now" with Sirius [20:19] <Mokey> but suddenly he became more thoughtful, and that makes no sense to me [20:19] <Addreamy> right, Moky [20:19] <Mokey> it's like his own self was comeing through again [20:19] <Islwyn13> I don't agree..everything he heard was giving him pause, making him THINK instead of just FEEL [20:19] <Moriah> Yeah, it's a fine line of a difference there but I agree with you Mokey [20:19] <Val_Halla> Harry was going to turn Wormtail over to the Dementors. That's pretty harsh. [20:19] <Val_Halla> Worse than death. [20:19] <Islwyn13> someone he trusted was telling him he was wrong about Sirius, that gave him pause [20:19] <Islwyn13> i.e. Lupin [20:20] <Addreamy> it is - but it's not the same as killing him directly. [20:20] <Islwyn13> then everything Harry thought he knew was true started being turned on its head [20:20] <Islwyn13> it made him stop and think, try and process all that he was hearing [20:20] <Moriah> Great point, Val [20:20] <Aislinn> Does LV realize that the Harrycrux exists when he attempts to possess Harry in the Ministry of Magic – was Dumbledore wrong about the reason that LV left Harry’s body? [20:20] * LJ has quit [Bye] [20:20] * GregoryTheSmarmy has quit [Bye] [20:20] <mlwl> ohh that is such a good question! [20:20] <Val_Halla> Sorry, but I think DD was right. [20:20] <Islwyn13> Based on how JKR wrote that scene, I don't think DD was wrong [20:21] * GregoryTheSmarmy has joined #lounge [20:21] <AnguaTLC> LV could have realized, without DD being wrong. [20:21] <Moriah> Hm, I'd have to read DD's thoughts again... [20:21] <Islwyn13> Harry felt that, if he cuold just die, he would be able to see Sirius again, and was filled with pain and love for Sirius [20:21] <Val_Halla> I would also point out that Harry was accepting his own death. [20:21] * LJ has joined #lounge [20:21] *** nerdynerdenstein has joined #lounge [20:21] <Islwyn13> at taht moment, he became conscious again, for LV had fled [20:21] <Moriah> Oh, right. Thanks Islwyn smile [20:21] <Islwyn13> np smile [20:21] <Mokey> It doesn't make sense to me that LV had a hard time inhabiting Harry's body which is full of love, when LV has love in his own veins [20:22] <AnguaTLC> LV's behavior toward Harry did change drastically after that scene, for whatever reason. [20:22] <Islwyn13> we're not sure how that love in LV's veins works, though [20:22] <Moriah> Good point, Mokey! [20:22] <mlwl> right [20:22] <TheGuruOfSloth> I agree, it's a turning point in how LV treats Harry [20:22] <Addreamy> I would have to read it again too, but I think that it's entirely possible for both LV to have fled b/c of a horcrux AND for DD to have been right about the love... [20:22] <Mokey> yes it did Angua [20:22] <Moriah> I forgot about that part [20:22] <TheGuruOfSloth> he realized something in that moment [20:22] <Islwyn13> it might not be as strong as the active love Harry was feeling at that moment [20:22] <Addreamy> Guru - I totally agree. [20:22] <Mokey> I think so too guru [20:22] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> very good point Guru [20:23] <Islwyn13> Maybe he had his first glimpse at the power of love [20:23] <TheGuruOfSloth> no - he had that in book one [20:23] <Mokey> before then he is very flippant about harry, he doesn't care if the DE's attack him, he wants DD to kill him...but then afterwards.... [20:23] <Islwyn13> finally started to take stock...hey, maybe this love thing will hurt me! [20:23] <Aislinn> which he has totally underestimated [20:23] <Val_Halla> If Harry is a horcrux and LV realizes it just then he has only two choices.. [20:23] <AnguaTLC> I got the impression that he fled because of the love Harry was feeling for Sirius, but he might have also discovered the (possible) Horcrux. [20:23] <Islwyn13> he knew it logically, but hadn't really ever felt it personally before tha tmoment, I don' thtink [20:23] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes, Mokey [20:23] <Aislinn> even though it destroyed his body [20:23] <nerdynerdenstein> Okay, I just got here, and I'm sure it's been said, but Mokey, I loved this essay! [20:24] <Islwyn13> Love didn't destroy him, the AK did [20:24] <Val_Halla> Kill Harry and 1/7th of his soul or let Harry live and risk his own total destruction. The choice is clear. [20:24] <AnguaTLC> Yeah, from "kill the boy now, Dumbledore" to "nobody but me can kill him!" [20:24] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I echo that einstein [20:24] <TheGuruOfSloth> the end of book one [20:24] <Islwyn13> Love protected Harry, but didn't destroy LV [20:24] <Mokey> thanks nerdy [20:24] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Very well done [20:24] <mlwl> well, it kinda did [20:24] <Aislinn> the sacrifice out of love caused it to rebound [20:24] <Mokey> exactly Angua [20:24] <mlwl> I mean, no one AKed HIM [20:24] <Mokey> good point about book one guru [20:24] <Islwyn13> He ak'd him [20:24] <Islwyn13> Love created a kind of shield, and the AK rebounded and destroyed LV's body... [20:24] <Islwyn13> he wasn't actually touched by that love [20:25] <Moriah> But he was through Quirrel, like Guru was saying [20:25] <Islwyn13> so didn't really experience it's strength, until he felt it inside Harry at teh MoM [20:25] <mlwl> we're sauing the same thing, just with different words. [20:25] <Aislinn> rigt [20:25] <Islwyn13> but was that love, or the spell that Love enabled DD to perform? [20:25] <Aislinn> right [20:25] <mlwl> does it make a difference???? [20:26] <Mokey> but don't you think he felt it's power when it doestroyed him [20:26] <Islwyn13> yes, I think so [20:26] <Mokey> he found out that's what did it in book 4 [20:26] <Islwyn13> I don't think LOVE destroys anything...I think it provides protections [20:26] <Val_Halla> It was the AK that killed his body wasn't it? [20:26] <AnguaTLC> Surely so, Val_Halla. [20:26] <Islwyn13> Again, he KNOWS love can provide protection, but doesn't really UNDERSTAND how strong itis until he feels it in Harry [20:26] <Aislinn> the point is that it is powerful, islwyn, and that LV underestimates it [20:26] <Islwyn13> yes, VAl, i thin it was [20:26] <nerdynerdenstein> Love might destroy something. Isn't it "great and terrible to behold"? [20:27] <Islwyn13> true, but we were discussing why his attitude changed towards harry after he possessed him [20:27] <Mokey> yes Val, but it was the protection of love that made the AK destroy him [20:27] <nerdynerdenstein> And it's locked in a room in the Dept of Mysteries? [20:27] <Addreamy> and there is such a thing as destrcutive love - but I dn't know that that's what we'er talking about here. [20:27] <Moriah> No, I think he understands it at the end of one, as he admits to having overlooked it during his big soliquey (sp?) in book 4 [20:27] <Islwyn13> I'm hypothesizing it's because he finally UNDERSTOOD how strong that love is, and needed time to reevaluate [20:27] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Very good Isl - I think you're absolutely right - it scared him [20:27] <Addreamy> I agree, Moriah. [20:27] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> a lot [20:28] <Islwyn13> Right Ginbot, that's what I'm thinking [20:28] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yep - I couldn't agree more [20:28] <Islwyn13> and while he's reevaluating, why not arrange to have DD murdered, so he can't help Harry any longer [20:28] <Val_Halla> He didn't really think Draco would succeed. But even a blind squirrell sometimes finds a nut, I suppose... [20:28] <Islwyn13> You can know that fire burns you, but do you really understand until you felt it? [20:29] * nerdynerdenstein has quit [Bye] [20:29] <Islwyn13> Yeah, but I think he had a backup plan in case Draco didn't succeed [20:29] <AnguaTLC> I think Draco had more of a chance of succeding than most people think. Because he was a student of Dumbledore's. [20:29] <Islwyn13> I don't think it was designed just to get DRaco killed and punish Lucius [20:29] <AnguaTLC> I think it was a rather clever plan. This post has been edited by Aislinn**: Jul 22 2006, 08:51 PM

Aislinn View Member Profile	Jul 22 2006, 08:57 PM Post #2
Chief Cat Herder Posts: 3,514 Joined: 10:28am August 6, 2005 Location: In the Corner Booth - home of the elusive Holy Grain!	[20:29] <Val_Halla> I think draco has no chance of succeeding [20:30] <Val_Halla> i meant had [20:30] <Islwyn13> He would have succeeded if he'd had the nerve to kill DD on the tower [20:30] <AnguaTLC> But he was a student, so Dumbledore couldn't (and didn't) fight back. [20:30] <Moriah> But again, he felt it in one. I know I keep saying the same thing but I don't see a difference between the pain love caused in one and the pain it may have caused in five [20:30] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I don't think DD would have let Draco succeed [20:30] <TheGuruOfSloth> How does Draco fit into this? [20:30] *** SeverineSnape has joined #lounge [20:30] <Val_Halla> Only because DD permitted it to get to that point [20:30] <AnguaTLC> Even though he says he knew Draco was doing it. [20:30] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> that's why he had Snape do it [20:30] <Moriah> Especially when you consider what Mokey said about LV having love in his blood through Harry's blood [20:30] <Islwyn13> Because I don't think love caused the pain in one [20:31] <TheGuruOfSloth> I do. [20:31] <Addreamy> I do too, Guru [20:31] <Moriah> DD thinks it is, which is what I'm going on here [20:31] <Val_Halla> I agree it was love [20:31] <Islwyn13> I think it was the spell DD cast because of the love of Harry's mother, but not love itself [20:31] <Islwyn13> it's hard for me to describe, I know i'm doing it poorly, sorry sad [20:31] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> You're doing great Isl [20:32] <Islwyn13> Even if it was love, he would have felt it indirectly through Quirrel, wouldn't he? [20:32] <Addreamy> oh - no, I think it was the love as the core of that magic. DD may have put extra protections on harry, but I think it was the sacrifice itself that set the spell [20:32] <Islwyn13> not the full force of it he did in OotP [20:32] <Mokey> I agree addy [20:32] <Moriah> No, I'm sorry, Islwyn. I see what you're saying. I guess it's one of those things that we're not sure of but I agree with DD on it [20:33] <Addreamy> well, there was a part of him that was IN quirrel - and would have gotten the direct "blast" that way [20:33] <Aislinn> back to the essay: Part of the theory that argues in support of Harrycrux uses the similarities between Riddle and Harry as evidence. What are those similarities, and do they support this connection? [20:33] <Islwyn13> I guess I"m trying to say taht waht LV felt in Harry was PURE love; in book one, it was love that had been altered in a fashion, fashioned into a protectin [20:33] <Val_Halla> LV was actually possessing Harry in OoTP. He would have felt the love far more up close and personal than in PS [20:33] <Islwyn13> Agreed, Val [20:34] <Islwyn13> and I think THAT'S when he truly realized how powerful love could be, how untenable it was for him [20:34] <mlwl> that is such a good point, Aislinn; I think so [20:34] <Aislinn> and he also believed that he was no longer threatened by it after he took Harry's blood [20:34] <Islwyn13> I think the similarities between Riddle and Harry show how important choices are [20:34] <mlwl> yes, they doto a point [20:34] <Islwyn13> they hvae many of the same abilities, the same intuitions, but LV uses them to help himself, Harry uses them to help others [20:34] <Aislinn> me too islwyn [20:34] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> absolutely Isl [20:34] <Moriah> I agree, Islwyn [20:35] <mlwl> but there are some that are just eerie, such as the two identical conversations [20:35] <Mokey> that makes good sense Isl [20:35] <mlwl> in CoS [20:35] <Islwyn13> Yeah, I have to admit, I'm not sure why JKR did that [20:35] <Mokey> and I agree with that mel [20:35] <Islwyn13> you mean the TM-Slughorn conversation and the Harry-Slughron conversation, right? [20:35] <Mokey> what bothers me most is how Harry admires how tom asks Slughorn about horcruxes [20:35] <mlwl> well, it's to emphasize that this is MORE than a normal connection [20:35] <mlwl> weird similarities [20:35] <Mokey> And Harry can't resist imitating it [20:36] <Val_Halla> I believe the identical conversation was purposefule on Harry's part. He was tweaking Sluggy's guilt over helping Tom learn about Horcruxes [20:36] <mlwl> I was meaning the one when they are questioned by DD, but that one works as well [20:36] <Moriah> Definitely... and that Harry could have easily taken that path as well but choose not to [20:36] <Islwyn13> I admire how HItler was able to stabilize Germany after WWI, but I certainly don't admire anything else about him [20:36] <Moriah> chooses [20:36] <AnguaTLC> Oh, from Book 2? [20:36] <Mokey> but it says something like he reminded himself irresistibly of TR [20:36] <AnguaTLC> Yeah, that wasn't just stuck in there for nothing. [20:36] <Mokey> why couldnt' he resist? [20:37] <Aislinn> because he had recently watched him wheedle the very same information out of Slughorn [20:37] <Aislinn> and he saw how effectively it worked [20:37] <AnguaTLC> Well, that's wording JKR used at other times. Like Hermione reminded him irresistably of Mrs. Weasley. [20:37] <Mokey> I think it was the LV in him, hungering for the power that comes with charming people [20:37] <AnguaTLC> Maybe he's not good at resisting comparisons. tongue [20:37] <Aislinn> that seems more likely angua [20:37] <Mokey> lol Angua biggrin [20:38] <Addreamy> lol [20:38] <Addreamy> I wonder, though. Harry's not a wheedler, normally [20:38] <Val_Halla> But Harry had very good reason for questioning Slughorn. Nothing shady about it. [20:38] <mlwl> but it isn't used as often with other comparisons, even when you put them all together [20:38] <AnguaTLC> But the Tom/Harry comparisons happen over and over again. [20:38] <Moriah> Hm, interesting, Mokey, but I still* go back to how real and complex it makes Harry for him to have these similarities [20:38] <Addreamy> would he have used the same tactics if not influenced by LV? [20:38] <AnguaTLC> I wonder if Tom Riddle took Felix before questioning Slughorn?! [20:38] <Aislinn> and emphasize the way they have taken such different paths, due to their choices [20:38] <Islwyn13> Yeah, I think so [20:38] <Aislinn> even with their similarities [20:39] <Mokey> oh that's interesting angua [20:39] <Addreamy> Angua - I like that thought [20:39] <Moriah> I don't think so, Angua. Tom shows us a lot how good he is at charming. He wouldn't need it [20:39] <Islwyn13> hehe, but it takes 6 months to brew, where would he have done it? smile [20:39] <Addreamy> that suggests that this was the way to get to Slughorn [20:39] <Moriah> I agree, Aislinn [20:39] <GregoryTheSmarmy> yeah I agree Mo... and Slughorn is a stupid git [20:40] <Moriah> snort [20:40] <Addreamy> well - he's self-serving, that's for sure, gregorya [20:40] <Islwyn13> Oh, I dont know if he's stupid [20:40] <Islwyn13> He admired Tom, and thought it was just idle curiosity on his part [20:40] <GregoryTheSmarmy> yeah he is self-serving, but I didn't say he's stupid [20:40] <Islwyn13> And Tom is VERY smooth [20:40] <Addreamy> did he? [20:40] <Moriah> I think she just means that he's easily manipulated, Islwyn [20:40] <AnguaTLC> He's vulnerable to flattery. [20:40] <Aislinn> yes [20:40] <Mokey> the interesting thing is that LV has all of the side effects of overusing felix tongue [20:40] <Addreamy> I don't know that Slughorn would haf thought it "idle curiousity" actually [20:41] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yes - who would have suspected charming Tom [20:41] <TheGuruOfSloth> I always took the Tom/Harry similarities as a literary device to show how Harry could be like LV, but chooses not to be. But taken along with the other evidence in this essay, it does add another piece to the argument that some of LV is in Harry. [20:41] <Islwyn13> hehe, you said he was a stupid git! smile [20:41] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> except DD that is [20:41] <Addreamy> OMG - Mokey, that' svery interesitng! [20:41] <Islwyn13> Agreed, Sloth smile [20:41] <Moriah> haha, you did, Gregorya [20:41] <Addreamy> I hadn't thought of that... [20:41] <Islwyn13> about the first part... [20:41] <Aislinn> I agree completely with your first sentence, sloth! [20:41] <Mokey> that was well put guru and I think both aspects are important [20:41] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Very interesting point Guru [20:42] <Moriah> Wow, that overuse of felix is cool, Mokey! [20:42] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> and it does go back to choices, doesn't it [20:42] <Islwyn13> I have to say, though, to say that the darker aspects of Harry are really LV, I think takes away from Harry's maturing and growing [20:42] <TheGuruOfSloth> to me, it's not outright evidence, but if the rest of what's in the essay is right, it really supports the arguments [20:42] <Aislinn> Will Harry survive the removal of the Harrycrux, if in fact there is one? [20:42] <Mokey> yes it does Ginbot, and I think if harry can make the right choices even with a bit of LV in him, well that would show us what a hero he is [20:42] <AnguaTLC> Of course! [20:43] <Moriah> Exactly, Guru [20:43] <mlwl> I don't know.... it doesn't look good [20:43] <AnguaTLC> Ann, wait until you hear Monday's Pottercast. [20:43] * Witherwings has quit [Bye] [20:43] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Yep - agreed [20:43] <mlwl> I've heard some good theories on that one, involving the veil [20:43] <Islwyn13> I think it makes an even bigger impact if Harry choses to fight the darker parts within himself, rather than just having anohte rtype of battle with LV [20:43] <Islwyn13> he has enough of those smile [20:43] <Val_Halla> I don't think Harry will die. Period. [20:43] <Islwyn13> Agreed, completely! [20:43] <SeverineSnape> yes I quite like the veil theories myself [20:43] <mlwl> why? [20:43] <Islwyn13> he MUST survive [20:44] <mlwl> why? [20:44] <Mokey> I heard a really good theory on it, but I forget it biggrin [20:44] <mlwl> many effective heros do not [20:44] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Hmmm - extracting a soul [20:44] <GregoryTheSmarmy> lol Mokes [20:44] * Witherwings has joined #lounge [20:44] <AnguaTLC> Because it would be too sad if he doesn't. Also, JKR said so! [20:44] <Mokey> true mel sad [20:44] * Lizzieangel90 has joined #lounge [20:44] <Islwyn13> Because you don't take seven books to develop a character, to show him growing and maturing, and finding love, and having all of these wonderful experiences, only to kill him of fin the end [20:44] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> and the ability to live afterwards (a fragment of soul that is) [20:44] <Moriah> Wait, what did JKR say? [20:45] <Val_Halla> It wouldn't fit the prphecy too well if they both die. [20:45] <TheGuruOfSloth> but it wouldn't be "killing him off" - Harry knows what he's risking [20:45] <TheGuruOfSloth> he's ready to die [20:45] <Islwyn13> Very true, Val! [20:45] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I don't see why Harry couldn't live - I mean LV had to extract 6 fragments of his soul and managed to live until he tried to kill harry [20:45] <TheGuruOfSloth> if he must [20:45] <Moriah> I don't think that Jo looks at it like that, Islwyn [20:45] <GregoryTheSmarmy> I agree Guru [20:45] <Addreamy> Islwyn - as much as I want to believe that - I can so totally see jo killing him [20:45] <Mokey> but Islwyn harry's growth has all been toward one purpose IMO [20:45] <SeverineSnape> I don't think Harry needs to die for him to lose the horcrux, if he has one [20:45] * HawthorneAndPhoenix has joined #lounge [20:45] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I agree Severine [20:45] <AnguaTLC> When she was in Canada once, in 2000, I think, she did her usual thing of teasing about Harry dying. Some kids listening got upset and she felt bad and said she was only joking. [20:45] <Islwyn13> yes, to defeat LV, not to have to sacrifice himself [20:45] <Moriah> I don't think he has to die but I don't think it's a sure thing he'll live [20:45] <SeverineSnape> I love the theory that he will be able to pass through the veil and back [20:45] <AnguaTLC> He will think he's got to die, I think. [20:45] <Moriah> Jo's left it wide open [20:46] <TheGuruOfSloth> right, Mo. that's what's so compelling [20:46] <TheGuruOfSloth> I agree, Angua [20:46] <Mokey> I agree [20:46] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think he'd be left damaged but not dead [20:46] <Islwyn13> Yeah, I agree with that Angua, he may think it, but something will keep him from dying [20:46] <GregoryTheSmarmy> I agree Moriah, it'll be so great to see what happens.. [20:46] *** Estrella has joined #lounge [20:46] <AnguaTLC> I think that's the big twist. How he can not have to die after all. [20:46] <Mokey> hi Estrella [20:46] <mlwl> possibly Snape, if you've read clunycat's essay ;) [20:46] <SeverineSnape> I hope he doesn't end up as Frodo: tired of it all [20:46] <Islwyn13> I don't think he will [20:47] <Addreamy> Moriah - I think you're right. and it's hard to predict what will happen in the end [20:47] <Moriah> Estrella! [20:47] <Val_Halla> It would be a pretty depressing series if the Potter family history reads: James and Lily sacrifice themselves to save harry; Harry sacrifices himself. The end. [20:47] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> LOL S/S [20:47] <mlwl> that's the way MANY in the genre do end up... [20:47] <Estrella> Moriah! [20:47] <TheGuruOfSloth> Harry sacrifices himself TO SAVE THE WORLD [20:47] <AnguaTLC> But Harry is different! [20:47] <Aislinn> %just a note that we have about 15 minutes left [20:47] <Estrella> I cannot see it happening to Harry [20:47] <Islwyn13> the genre of children's fantasy? [20:47] <Addreamy> but not all - and it's SO hard to tell which way this will go! [20:47] <Moriah> Val, it would be depressing but that's not going to stop Jo from letting it happen [20:47] <Witherwings> That's too Donni Darko methinks. [20:47] <SeverineSnape> I mean, he's gone through so much, but he's still so young, he deserves a nice life after all this [20:47] <Addreamy> The genre of fantasy epics, Islwyn [20:47] <Islwyn13> It happens a lot in Shakespearean tragedy, but not in children's books, does it? [20:47] <mlwl> it's not entirely a children's book any more isl [20:47] <Estrella> These are still books for young adults and no matter how dark they get it would make no sense for the character to have so much grwoth only to kick the bucket at the end [20:47] <mlwl> Narnia [20:47] <Moriah> Sure it does! [20:48] <Addreamy> this is not simply a children's series [20:48] <mlwl> everyone dies there [20:48] <Addreamy> true, mel! [20:48] <Estrella> Narnia is still happy though- they all go to paradise together [20:48] <AnguaTLC> The thing that convinces me most that Harry won't die, is that sometimes he WANTS to die. Like at the end of Book5. [20:48] <Estrella> no one left behind [20:48] <Mokey> yeah mel [20:48] <Val_Halla> She spent 6 books setting up Harry/Ginny. I don't think that was for a tragic ending. [20:48] <Aislinn> I just don't want this to end up being a tragedy [20:48] <SeverineSnape> no this is definitely not just a children's series [20:48] <mlwl> why couldn't this be like that? [20:48] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I agree Estrella - what would be the lesson there [20:48] <Islwyn13> I know it's not, but she knows children read them [20:48] <AnguaTLC> I think it's important that he learn to embrace life, and not try to follow his parents and Sirius into death. [20:48] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think the impact of Harry dying would be far too great [20:48] <Islwyn13> and I think she would want to make the point that the hero can be victorious [20:48] <Estrella> That making the right choices gets you killed- not a great lesson for kids [20:48] <SeverineSnape> I agree Gin-Bot, JKR is big on lessons, what would this one be [20:48] <Aislinn> right angua [20:48] <TheGuruOfSloth> that's not the lesson! [20:48] <LJ> I don't think Harry will die [20:48] <Witherwings> There's a difference between sad (like DD/Cedric/Sirius dying) and letting down an entire generation of readers (having Harry die) [20:48] <Addreamy> but she doesn't shy away from hard issues, just because children read them, either, Islwyn [20:49] <Moriah> But I don't think that Jo's going to follow a pattern of set-up of relationships. Sirius' death shows that people can just die. No warning, no nothing [20:49] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> True Addreamy [20:49] <Estrella> I know- but to show children that you die for maing the right choice will get yu killed is wrong [20:49] <Islwyn13> Yeah, but killing Harry POtter, after years of developing him, that's more than a hard lesson [20:49] <Islwyn13> I think it would be cruel [20:49] <Estrella> It is one thing to show the costs of war [20:49] <Estrella> but another to obliterate someone like that [20:49] <Witherwings> Exactly [20:49] <Addreamy> estrella - but she did that with Cedric.... [20:49] <AnguaTLC> I think his near-death will be pretty darn harrowing. [20:49] <Witherwings> Cedric is not the title of the books [20:49] <Val_Halla> I believe the costs of war will be shown with other deaths. [20:49] <Islwyn13> yes, but Cedric wasn't Harry [20:49] <Mokey> but sometimes it seems to me as though Harry has been developed as an LV destroying machine [20:49] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I think there's a difference Addreamy, though [20:50] <Estrella> Yes bu t Cedric was and is a secondary character [20:50] <Mokey> lilke that has been his purpos or something [20:50] <Moriah> But sometimes people die for what they believe in. There is a message to dieing for something, especially if he doesn't actually kill LV (which is another convo altogether) [20:50] <Addreamy> very true, moriah! [20:50] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> yes - and while she did want to demonstrate that life is not always fair, I don't see her allowing the main character to perish [20:50] <Islwyn13> it wouldn't make sense for Harry to sacrifice himself for a purpose other than killing LV [20:51] <Moriah> We already know that 2 are going to [20:51] <Islwyn13> then the Harry POtter book would have to continue without Harry Potter, in order for there to be resolution [20:51] <Mokey> I agree Mo [20:51] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> It would set hmmm - I don't think it's the type of message she wants out there [20:51] <Val_Halla> Harry has already shown willingness to die and probably will again. [20:51] <Moriah> Defeat doesn't neseccarily mean kill [20:51] <Estrella> In terms of the story it does not make sense for Harry to die- bare in mind the context of the series and Jo's emphasis on morals [20:51] <Val_Halla> I don't think he actually needs to die. [20:51] <Islwyn13> Yeah, but she said taht two were going to die that she dind't intend...I don't think she's changed what she was going to have happen to her main characters, Ithink that's set in stone [20:51] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> I agree Val [20:51] <Estrella> Plus don't forget she has lived with Harry for over 16 years in her head [20:51] <Addreamy> poor woman! [20:51] <mlwl> but that doesn't mean it can't happen [20:52] <Estrella> He's been a big part of her life for longer than her children [20:52] <TheGuruOfSloth> who says that if you're a good person and do the right thing, you get to live a long happy life though? [20:52] <AnguaTLC> I think the lesson she wants to transmit is that you have to be willing to die, but you shouldn't want to. [20:52] <GregoryTheSmarmy> lol ADDy [20:52] <TheGuruOfSloth> that's not morals [20:52] <Estrella> Yes but it makes it more inlikely [20:52] <TheGuruOfSloth> sometimes it's life [20:52] <Islwyn13> Sure, it could happen, but I really don't think she'll do it [20:52] <Moriah> She said two main characters, but that's not worth getting into. I don't think one of those was Harry. I'm just saying that people will die [20:52] <Mokey> true guru [20:52] <Estrella> Yes but Guru are still books primarily aimed at teenagers- not Pulp Fiction [20:52] <Addreamy> That's right, Guru - life happens [20:52] <Islwyn13> Yes, but after all Harry's been through, after everyone he's lost, all the torment he's had to endure, he deserves to live [20:52] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> would she be too concerned, though, that by killing off Harry, other teens would put themselves in danger - this is not coming out right [20:53] <Mokey> but Sirius was able to preach dying for your friens [20:53] <Addreamy> but deserving to live and having that happen arent' necessarily synonymous [20:53] <Estrella> As an adult [20:53] <TheGuruOfSloth> I don't think Harry will die. But I think it's a mistake to say that he can't, for this or that reason outside of the logic of the story itself. [20:53] <Mokey> why can't Harry represent dying for what you believe is right [20:53] <Moriah> I hope he lives too but there is something waiting for him when he dies, if you agree with Luna [20:53] <Islwyn13> Yes, so it's already been done [20:53] <Estrella> Sirius and co were still older than Harry [20:53] <Aislinn> she seems too upbeat to me to kill off Harry - that just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of her message [20:53] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Harry is willingly going into battle and while this is fiction, would she not be concerned that other impressionable young people would [20:53] <Moriah> Exactly, Guru [20:53] <Islwyn13> in this sort of story, though, I think he will be given that wonderful life that he's earned. [20:53] <Estrella> I agree with you Aislinn [20:53] <Mokey> true guru [20:53] <Mokey> I still think it can go either way [20:54] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> find themselves in similar situations - or at least imagine them to be similar and do something careless [20:54] <Addreamy> i agree, maggie [20:54] <Islwyn13> no, but it might give them the message, "What's the point in fighting, you're just going to end up dyig in the end anyway!" [20:54] <Val_Halla> For good to truly triumph, I think Harry must live. Otherwise Lily's sacrifice is meaningless. [20:54] <Islwyn13> Agreed, Val! [20:55] <Aislinn> ok folks, time for final thoughts biggrin [20:55] <Islwyn13> HARRY WILL LIVE! lol [20:55] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Harry, dead or alive? Alive [20:55] <Addreamy> Mokesy essay rocks! [20:55] <AnguaTLC> If Harry IS a Horcrux, how will it begin to show in Book 7? [20:55] <Mokey> thanks Addy, Ginbot, I don't know [20:55] <Islwyn13> Agreed! (Even though I don't agree ducks) [20:55] <Val_Halla> If lily's sacrifice protected Harry from LV's touch, why would it not repel a portion of LV's soul? I don't think he can be a horcrux. [20:55] <Moriah> Well, Sirius said himself in PoA (and OotP) that there is a point to dieing if you're fighting evil (when talking to Wormtail in 3 and about Arthur in 5) [20:55] <Lizzieangel90> The essay was brillant. smile [20:55] *** HawthorneAndPhoenix left #lounge [] [20:55] <mlwl> yeah!!! Mokey is fantabulous!!! that's my thought!!! [20:56] * Moriah fagirls Mokey!! [20:56] <Mokey> I don't think he's realize it till towards the end Angua [20:56] <Witherwings> Yes great essay. Harry will not die! [20:56] <Moriah> fangirls [20:56] <Aislinn> the essay was very well written, mokey, even if the logic is flawed tongue [20:56] <TheGuruOfSloth> Well, I never thought Harry was a horcrux and I still don't think I do. But I have serious questions now that I can't shake. Wonderful esay, Mokey [20:56] <AnguaTLC> But he needs to angst for a while about needing to kill himself. [20:56] <Val_Halla> Great essay, Mokey! [20:56] <Aislinn> you almost convinced me..... [20:56] <Mokey> thanks everybody [20:56] Moriah loves Mokey and her essay [20:56] <Estrella> Mokey, great essay [20:56] <GregoryTheSmarmy> I feel the same way as Guru [20:56] <AnguaTLC> ANd the paradox of he CAN'T kill himself, and then kill Voldemort. [20:56] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Maybe we need to submit a petition to JK - We want Harry to live [20:56] <AnguaTLC> Yeah, I loved that essay. smile [20:56] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> even if she has to do over! [20:56] <SeverineSnape> Yes, awesome essay! I'm not convinced but you really did bring up some really clever stuff! [20:56] <Estrella> I loved all the theories and discussion the essay bred [20:57] * magicmeg8 has quit [Bye] [20:57] <AnguaTLC> Harry will live! I'm sure of it. [20:57] <Moriah> Mokey has me questioning so much stuff that I thought I was sure of [20:57] <Mokey> I hope so Angua [20:57] <Moriah> I hope so too... but I'm far from sure [20:57] <mlwl> I'm more certain than I was when I first read HBP. then I thought he was dead for sure. [20:57] <Addreamy> Same here, Moriah! [20:57] <Aislinn> thanks so much for coming tonight and discussing it with us, mokey! [20:57] <Estrella> Thanks Mokey [20:57] <AnguaTLC> Yes, thanks so much! [20:57] <Islwyn13> Wel, I'm off! Thanks for the essay, Mokey, and thanks to everyone for the discussion! [20:58] <Moriah> Bye, Islwyn! [20:58] <Islwyn13> Oh, and HARRY WILL LIVE! Did I say that already? smile [20:58] <Mokey> Thanks everyone for the discussion [20:58] <Mokey> bye Islwyn [20:58] <Aislinn> Pottercast chat monday, and Horcruxes again wed, I think! [20:58] <Aislinn> come on back and chat again! [20:58] <Ginny-From-A-Bottle> Thanks Aislinn and all - great discussion - sorry I was really late! [20:58] <GregoryTheSmarmy> thank YOU Mokes [20:58] <Moriah> Cool, thanks Aislinn! [20:58] * Islwyn13 left #lounge [] [20:58] <Mokey> smile [20:58] <LJ> Mokey ROCKS! [20:58] <Lizzieangel90> I loved the essay! It made me really think about Harry and Voldemort and their connection. Wonderful work Mokey! flowers [20:58] *** Ginny-From-A-Bottle has quit [Bye] [20:58] * Addreamy applauds Mokey [20:58] <Mokey> thanks Lizzie [20:58] <Moriah> Mokey is my hero [20:58] <Mokey> blushing [20:59] <Lizzieangel90> Mokey rules smile [20:59] <Estrella> Angua, forgive me for being nosy- was it you who wrote some fanfic on Remus and Tonks or am I confusing you with someone else [20:59] * Witherwings has quit [Bye] [20:59] <Estrella> If so ignore me [20:59] <AnguaTLC> No, it wasn't me. Wish I had! [20:59] * cloudpic has joined #lounge [20:59] <Estrella> I just thought I recognised the name from my trawls through fanfic sites [20:59] <Estrella> or essay sites or something [21:00] <AnguaTLC> I have written fanfic, but not R/T. [21:00] <AnguaTLC> And essays as well. smile [21:00] * TheGuruOfSloth left #lounge [] [21:00] <Estrella> You have an L.J ? [21:00] <Val_Halla> Well, I'm off. Cheers, everyone! [21:00] <Estrella> I think I may have read them [21:00] <mlwl> bye! [21:00] * GregoryTheSmarmy left #lounge [] [21:00] <Moriah> Bye Val! [21:00] *** Val_Halla left #lounge [] [21:00] <Mokey> bye [21:00] <AnguaTLC> Yes, Estrella. [21:00] <AnguaTLC> Bye all! [21:00] <Estrella> You the ANgua who likes Pirates as well ? [21:00] <Addreamy> bye!

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