The Silver Doe...Really!?, How and when Did Snape know about Lily's Patronus? |
Jul 21 2007, 11:17 AM
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#1
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 441 Joined: 12:23am August 8, 2005 Location: In front of my computer, funnily enough ... |
It's 2am where I am, and I've just finished one of the most awesome books I've ever read.
I've cried, I've laughed ... but in a few instances, I've simply punched the air in absolutely glee, because you know what? I called it. Years ago. Well, I called a version of it, anyway. I sent this editorial to both Mugglenet and Scribbulus (Mugglenet was sent it more than once), but neither published it. And I feel so vindicated. Yes, this probably makes me petty, but I really don't mind. This editorial was written after the release of HBP. Snape's Patronus: A Theory About Why Dumbledore Trusted Him NB: This editorial is written completely on the premise that Snape is not evil. If he turns out truly bad - then this theory is invalid! Many people on the forums have lately been arguing over what they believe Snape's Patronus to be. Some say spider, others say bat, others have decided upon a slug for reasons of their own. My own theory? It has something to do with Lily. Yes, yes, I hear you all groan. Another Lily/Snape shipper. But let's just for a moment assume that this is true, that Snape really did have some sort of feelings for Lily (whether romantic or purely as friends and whether Lily reciprocated these feelings or not is another matter). Now, we've all got to remember something here - Dumbledore isn't stupid. Just because a former Death Eater seems to turn over a new leaf and spins "a tale of deepest remorse" (HBP, pg 36, UK) doesn't mean that Dumbledore is going to trust them implicitly. I believe that Dumbledore needed proof. Even if Snape admitted he was in love/had a strong friendship with Lily - again, where is the proof? What made Dumbledore so sure that Snape was on the right side? Some have suggested the Unbreakable Vow. But I don't think so. I think it had to do with his Patronus. All through HBP, we see that Tonks is in a state of despair, and that her Patronus has changed - because she has gone through "a great shock ... an emotional upheaval," (HBP, pg 319, UK) as Lupin puts it. It has to do with her love for a particular werewolf. Because of this "great shock", Tonks' Patronus has altered to suit her emotions, to a shape she connects with happiness, peace and protection - Remus. I believe that this is not just an interesting magical tidbit that JKR has put in the books. It has a deeper meaning (as I believe Tonks/Lupin does as well, but that's another story). Snape's words upon first seeing Tonks' new Patronus are fascinating, to my mind. "I was interested to see your new Patronus ... I think you were better off with the old one ... The new one looks weak." (HBP, pg 153 UK) This could be merely taken as Snape's usual condescending tone towards everyone. But take into account Snape's words in OotP ... "Fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers!" (OotP, pg 473, UK) It is the mention of "weak" again here that intrigued me. Tonks, showing her changed Patronus, is effectively "wearing her heart on her sleeve" for all the world to see. And Snape considers that weak. JKR has stated many times that everything she writes into the books is there for a reason. Take this innocuous piece of seemingly useless information - " ... Ron was now struggling to finish a viciously difficult essay for Snape that Harry and Hermione had already completed. Harry fully expected to receive low marks on his because he had disagreed with Snape on the best way to tackle Dementors ..." (HBP, pg 420, UK). Harry, as a student of Lupin, obviously thinks the best way to deal with Dementors is the use of the Patronus. But why does Snape dislike this method? Simply because of this. With Lily's death, Snape went through a great emotional shock - especially considering the fact that it was he who gave Voldemort the information that caused the Dark Lord to go after the Potters. And so, just like Tonks, Snape's Patronus underwent a tranformation. Now, I'm not saying that it turned into Lily herself, but something to do with Lily - perhaps her own Patronus. But it would have been something that both Snape and Dumbledore would identify with Lily. I don't believe that a Patronus is something that can be faked, or changed to suit your will. It is simply what is inside yourself that is mirrored. So it was through this change of Patronus that Dumbledore knew that Snape's repentance was genuine. But Snape, liking to show his cold, heartless facade to the world, would have considered this a "weakness" that could be exploited against him - he would believe he is wearing his heart on his sleeve. And so he dislikes this method of Dementor-tackling, because it reveals his own "weaknesses", of letting others see his emotions. This could be very interesting if Snape or someone else is attacked by Dementors in front of Harry and Snape's Patronus appears ... and Harry finally discovers why Dumbledore trusted him all along. -------------------- By Makani - check out her awesome art at http://acciobrain.ligermagic.com/ The ULTIMATE title for Book 7: Harry Potter and the Half-Phoenix's Fiery Azkabanian Chamber of Philosophers |
Jul 21 2007, 11:18 AM
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#2
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Disgruntled House-Elf at The Leaky Cauldron![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 441 Joined: 12:23am August 8, 2005 Location: In front of my computer, funnily enough ... |
It's 2am where I am, and I've just finished one of the most awesome books I've ever read.
I've cried, I've laughed ... but in a few instances, I've simply punched the air in absolutely glee, because you know what? I called it. Years ago. Well, I called a version of it, anyway. I sent this editorial to both Mugglenet and Scribbulus (Mugglenet was sent it more than once), but neither published it. And I feel so vindicated. Yes, this probably makes me petty, but I really don't mind. This editorial was written after the release of HBP. Snape's Patronus: A Theory About Why Dumbledore Trusted Him NB: This editorial is written completely on the premise that Snape is not evil. If he turns out truly bad - then this theory is invalid! Many people on the forums have lately been arguing over what they believe Snape's Patronus to be. Some say spider, others say bat, others have decided upon a slug for reasons of their own. My own theory? It has something to do with Lily. Yes, yes, I hear you all groan. Another Lily/Snape shipper. But let's just for a moment assume that this is true, that Snape really did have some sort of feelings for Lily (whether romantic or purely as friends and whether Lily reciprocated these feelings or not is another matter). Now, we've all got to remember something here - Dumbledore isn't stupid. Just because a former Death Eater seems to turn over a new leaf and spins "a tale of deepest remorse" (HBP, pg 36, UK) doesn't mean that Dumbledore is going to trust them implicitly. I believe that Dumbledore needed proof. Even if Snape admitted he was in love/had a strong friendship with Lily - again, where is the proof? What made Dumbledore so sure that Snape was on the right side? Some have suggested the Unbreakable Vow. But I don't think so. I think it had to do with his Patronus. All through HBP, we see that Tonks is in a state of despair, and that her Patronus has changed - because she has gone through "a great shock ... an emotional upheaval," (HBP, pg 319, UK) as Lupin puts it. It has to do with her love for a particular werewolf. Because of this "great shock", Tonks' Patronus has altered to suit her emotions, to a shape she connects with happiness, peace and protection - Remus. I believe that this is not just an interesting magical tidbit that JKR has put in the books. It has a deeper meaning (as I believe Tonks/Lupin does as well, but that's another story). Snape's words upon first seeing Tonks' new Patronus are fascinating, to my mind. "I was interested to see your new Patronus ... I think you were better off with the old one ... The new one looks weak." (HBP, pg 153 UK) This could be merely taken as Snape's usual condescending tone towards everyone. But take into account Snape's words in OotP ... "Fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers!" (OotP, pg 473, UK) It is the mention of "weak" again here that intrigued me. Tonks, showing her changed Patronus, is effectively "wearing her heart on her sleeve" for all the world to see. And Snape considers that weak. JKR has stated many times that everything she writes into the books is there for a reason. Take this innocuous piece of seemingly useless information - " ... Ron was now struggling to finish a viciously difficult essay for Snape that Harry and Hermione had already completed. Harry fully expected to receive low marks on his because he had disagreed with Snape on the best way to tackle Dementors ..." (HBP, pg 420, UK). Harry, as a student of Lupin, obviously thinks the best way to deal with Dementors is the use of the Patronus. But why does Snape dislike this method? Simply because of this. With Lily's death, Snape went through a great emotional shock - especially considering the fact that it was he who gave Voldemort the information that caused the Dark Lord to go after the Potters. And so, just like Tonks, Snape's Patronus underwent a tranformation. Now, I'm not saying that it turned into Lily herself, but something to do with Lily - perhaps her own Patronus. But it would have been something that both Snape and Dumbledore would identify with Lily. I don't believe that a Patronus is something that can be faked, or changed to suit your will. It is simply what is inside yourself that is mirrored. So it was through this change of Patronus that Dumbledore knew that Snape's repentance was genuine. But Snape, liking to show his cold, heartless facade to the world, would have considered this a "weakness" that could be exploited against him - he would believe he is wearing his heart on his sleeve. And so he dislikes this method of Dementor-tackling, because it reveals his own "weaknesses", of letting others see his emotions. This could be very interesting if Snape or someone else is attacked by Dementors in front of Harry and Snape's Patronus appears ... and Harry finally discovers why Dumbledore trusted him all along. -------------------- By Makani - check out her awesome art at http://acciobrain.ligermagic.com/ The ULTIMATE title for Book 7: Harry Potter and the Half-Phoenix's Fiery Azkabanian Chamber of Philosophers |
Jul 21 2007, 11:51 AM
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#3
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Perusing the Magical Menagerie![]() Posts: 86 Joined: 10:20am August 23, 2006 |
Good catch. I have to admit that I was firmly in the Snape is Evil camp. I was wrong, but I kept believing it even when Harry started visiting the memories. At least JKR didn't leave it vague. There is no question about Snape!
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Jul 21 2007, 08:30 PM
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#4
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Buying a Half-Kneazle![]() ![]() ![]() Posts: 522 Joined: 7:18pm April 29, 2007 Location: stealing last memories with snape in the penseive |
yes i didnt read your essay but i remembered reading a post somewhere on leaky that predicted this.
-------------------- ![]() avatar by theonlysong** |
Jul 21 2007, 08:46 PM
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#5
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Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper![]() Posts: 59 Joined: 4:08pm July 24, 2005 |
that was a good theory for a pre book idea. i always said that snape either deeply respected or loved lily simply because her words always stung him and visa versa. the whole hogwarts express memory is something i envisioned happening for the hatred between the maurauders and snape. his patraunous changed as did tonks' with emotional upheaval
-------------------- "Well- it's just that you seem to be laboring under the delusion that I am going to- what is the phrase? 'Come quietly.' I have absolutely no intention of being sent to Azkaban. I could break out, of course- but what a waste of time, and frankly, I can think of a whole host of things I would rather be doing." ~Dumbledore
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Jul 21 2007, 09:06 PM
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#6
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer![]() ![]() Posts: 98 Joined: 1:38pm July 6, 2007 |
I totally knew Snape was good! I knew as soon as I saw the doe that it was Snape's patronus, and it meant he loved Lily Potter. It was totally obvious!!
I was a little confused by George's ear, but that was explained in the memory. -------------------- "Look....at...me."
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Jul 21 2007, 09:20 PM
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#7
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Just Through the Brick Wall![]() Posts: 1 Joined: 9:07pm July 21, 2007 |
I remember reading this wizardess - you rule! Snape truely is a pitiful and I guess heroic because he stayed true to his love of Lily despite her death and despite his complete isolation from either side of the fight.
QUOTE(wizardess @ Jul 22 2007, 02:17 AM) [snapback]1324439[/snapback] It's 2am where I am, and I've just finished one of the most awesome books I've ever read. I've cried, I've laughed ... but in a few instances, I've simply punched the air in absolutely glee, because you know what? I called it. Years ago. Well, I called a version of it, anyway. I sent this editorial to both Mugglenet and Scribbulus (Mugglenet was sent it more than once), but neither published it. And I feel so vindicated. Yes, this probably makes me petty, but I really don't mind. :D This editorial was written after the release of HBP. Snape's Patronus: A Theory About Why Dumbledore Trusted Him NB: This editorial is written completely on the premise that Snape is not evil. If he turns out truly bad - then this theory is invalid! Many people on the forums have lately been arguing over what they believe Snape's Patronus to be. Some say spider, others say bat, others have decided upon a slug for reasons of their own. My own theory? It has something to do with Lily. Yes, yes, I hear you all groan. Another Lily/Snape shipper. But let's just for a moment assume that this is true, that Snape really did have some sort of feelings for Lily (whether romantic or purely as friends and whether Lily reciprocated these feelings or not is another matter). Now, we've all got to remember something here - Dumbledore isn't stupid. Just because a former Death Eater seems to turn over a new leaf and spins "a tale of deepest remorse" (HBP, pg 36, UK) doesn't mean that Dumbledore is going to trust them implicitly. I believe that Dumbledore needed proof. Even if Snape admitted he was in love/had a strong friendship with Lily - again, where is the proof? What made Dumbledore so sure that Snape was on the right side? Some have suggested the Unbreakable Vow. But I don't think so. I think it had to do with his Patronus. All through HBP, we see that Tonks is in a state of despair, and that her Patronus has changed - because she has gone through "a great shock ... an emotional upheaval," (HBP, pg 319, UK) as Lupin puts it. It has to do with her love for a particular werewolf. Because of this "great shock", Tonks' Patronus has altered to suit her emotions, to a shape she connects with happiness, peace and protection - Remus. I believe that this is not just an interesting magical tidbit that JKR has put in the books. It has a deeper meaning (as I believe Tonks/Lupin does as well, but that's another story). Snape's words upon first seeing Tonks' new Patronus are fascinating, to my mind. "I was interested to see your new Patronus ... I think you were better off with the old one ... The new one looks weak." (HBP, pg 153 UK) This could be merely taken as Snape's usual condescending tone towards everyone. But take into account Snape's words in OotP ... "Fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers!" (OotP, pg 473, UK) It is the mention of "weak" again here that intrigued me. Tonks, showing her changed Patronus, is effectively "wearing her heart on her sleeve" for all the world to see. And Snape considers that weak. JKR has stated many times that everything she writes into the books is there for a reason. Take this innocuous piece of seemingly useless information - " ... Ron was now struggling to finish a viciously difficult essay for Snape that Harry and Hermione had already completed. Harry fully expected to receive low marks on his because he had disagreed with Snape on the best way to tackle Dementors ..." (HBP, pg 420, UK). Harry, as a student of Lupin, obviously thinks the best way to deal with Dementors is the use of the Patronus. But why does Snape dislike this method? Simply because of this. With Lily's death, Snape went through a great emotional shock - especially considering the fact that it was he who gave Voldemort the information that caused the Dark Lord to go after the Potters. And so, just like Tonks, Snape's Patronus underwent a tranformation. Now, I'm not saying that it turned into Lily herself, but something to do with Lily - perhaps her own Patronus. But it would have been something that both Snape and Dumbledore would identify with Lily. I don't believe that a Patronus is something that can be faked, or changed to suit your will. It is simply what is inside yourself that is mirrored. So it was through this change of Patronus that Dumbledore knew that Snape's repentance was genuine. But Snape, liking to show his cold, heartless facade to the world, would have considered this a "weakness" that could be exploited against him - he would believe he is wearing his heart on his sleeve. And so he dislikes this method of Dementor-tackling, because it reveals his own "weaknesses", of letting others see his emotions. This could be very interesting if Snape or someone else is attacked by Dementors in front of Harry and Snape's Patronus appears ... and Harry finally discovers why Dumbledore trusted him all along. |
Jul 21 2007, 09:20 PM
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#8
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Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes![]() Posts: 54 Joined: 8:02pm July 21, 2007 |
QUOTE(Mobabyhomeslice @ Jul 22 2007, 12:06 PM) [snapback]1325886[/snapback] I totally knew Snape was good! I knew as soon as I saw the doe that it was Snape's patronus, and it meant he loved Lily Potter. It was totally obvious!! I was a little confused by George's ear, but that was explained in the memory. i thought it was obvious, that he did that cos it meant he didnt aveda kedavra it |
Jul 21 2007, 09:40 PM
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#9
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher![]() ![]() Posts: 157 Joined: 7:13am January 28, 2005 Location: at the beach |
i always thought he was good bc jk used the same words to describe both harry giving DD the potion in the cave and snape killing dd
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Jul 22 2007, 05:26 PM
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#10
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Just Through the Brick Wall![]() Posts: 2 Joined: 5:24pm July 22, 2007 |
Ok, question: in the Pensieve near the end, when Dumbledore told Snape Harry must die, Snape has a bit of a grumble and then produces his Patronus which proceeds to go out of the window. Dumbledore tearily asks: "After all this time?" and Snape answers "Always".
What is this all about?? I cannot figure it out. Also, while you're here, why was Draco the master of the Elder Wand, and how did Harry know? Thanks!! |




Jul 21 2007, 11:17 AM









avatar by theonlysong**

