Sirius and Molly, Who would win? |
 Feb 16 2008, 07:31 PM
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#21
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher  Posts: 196 Joined: 5:06pm August 28, 2007 Location: Ottery St. Catchpole  |
Here's a bit of a Devil's Advocate position to mull over: I think it might be the case that Molly beat Bellatrix despite her passion and fear for her daughter's life, not because of it. If magical combat bears much resemblance, psychologically, to other types of human combat, strong, "hot" emotions are usually a liability. Beyond their ability to provide a jolt of energy and adrenaline, they are something that has to be immediately and effectively held in check in combat. An angry fighter is a sloppy and predictible fighter, prone to "tunnel vision" and actually worse at the sort of rapid, improvisational thinking that a skilled fighter relies on. Had Molly not quelled her initial burst of anger ("Not my daughter, you b-word!!") and settled down to the very serious business of defeating a skilled, ruthless enemy, she'd have been slaughtered.
Of course, it's also the case that the best fighter doesn't always win. Unless there is a huge gap in skill and power between combatants, the "lesser" fighter will still win sometimes. Molly might not have been Bella's equal in a duel to the death nine times out of ten, but the fight just happened to be that ten! I think they were probably more closely matched than that, as it happens, but it's a point worth considering. I also agree with the assertion that Bella may not have been fighting to kill vs. Sirius any more than he was trying to kill her. The canon version of the fight definitely does not include an AK on her part (red light, not green...), and her doubtless very powerful Stun (or whatever) may have simply been too much for a body that had been subjected to a dozen years in Azkaban. This post has been edited by Accio Pint!: Feb 17 2008, 01:02 AM -------------------- "Things we lose have a way of coming back to us in the end...if not always in the way we expect. I think I'll just go have some pudding."
Avatar by An_Eternal_Night |
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Jun 2 2008, 11:30 PM
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#22
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 27 Joined: 4:52am October 13, 2006 |
The two situations can't really be compared to determine who the 'best' was. As has been said in previous posts, Sirius and Bella were fighting family, whereas Molly was fighting to protect family. Whether or not Bella would have had qualms about killing Sirius (she, according to author interviews, killed Tonks, but that said she probably never knew Tonks and pretty obviously knew Sirius well), I find it hard to believe that Sirius would kill his cousin easily, even a cousin he hated. And as it stands, Bella didn't kill Sirius; the veil-gate-thingee did. I certainly don't think she was sad to see him go.
As for the assertions that Sirius wasn't talented, it is stated several times by several characters that Sirius and James were both extremely intelligent and extremely talented. Coupled with the fact that Dumbledore had Sirius running around with the Order as soon as he (and his friends) left Hogwarts, this lends to the idea that he was probably pretty good at duelling. Don't forget that, with James, he not only managed to become an Animagus, but also to get Pettigrew (who is consistently said to be less talented than both Sirius and James) through the transformation. On the duelling front specifically, the Ministry wasn't remotely surprised that he could be a high-ranking Death Eater, or that he could have murdered thirteen people (including a wizard) with one curse (BEFORE the other wizard could throw a spell). They didn't even bother with a trial. In terms of his arrogance; while is was clearly a personality trait, there isn't actually any evidence of Sirius being brought down by it post-Azkaban if you exclude his death specifically. He never gave Harry bad advice (although he was accused of it several times, it consistently turns out to have been good), and understood Harry well enough to know that if Harry wasn't given information, he would do something stupid (which he did). In fact, it was Hermione and Mollys accusations that he was overly reckless that stopped Harry from opening the package containing the mirror (a very good gift to give), and ultimately lead to his death. So what we have are three powerful wizards. They all appear to have been excellent duellers. Who would win? Probably depends on the circumstances. If Sirius was threatening Ginny's life, Molly would probably take him out. Failing that though, I'd say he'd have the edge (given that he was one of the brightest students, and had experience), as long as he didn't underestimate her too greatly. |
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Jun 15 2008, 05:06 PM
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#23
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Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes Posts: 50 Joined: 4:53pm December 1, 2007 Location: Chilling with the Dark Lord |
Question if Molly was a powerful wizard and could hold her own against LV's No.2 who learnt very powerful dark magic from him why wasnt she involved in other missions like the seven potters extraction if she was very powerful Arthur could have stayed with Ginny. Also why couldnt she even bat a Boggart WTF. That was just pathetic 3rd years can beat Boggarts
Some one mentioned why didnt Bill and Charlie stand upto her more if they were powerful. Well there not going to just attack there mother. Im 8inches n 120lb bigger then my mum yet i rarley stand upto her. Mollys victory over bella was pure emotion nothing else remember she had just wept for a dead son she wasnt gonna sit back n watch her daughter die. Jk was just trying to empathise further the *power* of love this was like a warm up to the Harry vs Voldemort encounter. For the same reasons above we know Sirius was an awesome dueler and very powerful, cocky but still very very good hed wipe the floor with Molly unless he threatened her kids lives. Someone said thet Molly could even beat LV if he threatened her kids. Silly person there are limits to the power of love even in Jks world. How many ppl has LV killed who were defending themselves and family countless. |
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Jun 15 2008, 06:21 PM
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#24
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Leaky Lounge Over Achiever Posts: 9,543 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK  |
QUOTE(DARK_LORD_LEGEND @ Jun 15 2008, 11:06 PM)  Question if Molly was a powerful wizard and could hold her own against LV's No.2 who learnt very powerful dark magic from him why wasnt she involved in other missions like the seven potters extraction if she was very powerful It is her choice. I think she prefers to stay at home and look after her family and be ready to patch up anybody would was injured.QUOTE(DARK_LORD_LEGEND @ Jun 15 2008, 11:06 PM) Also why couldnt she even bat a Boggart. That was just pathetic 3rd years can beat Boggarts Hermione couldn't. All witches and wizards have strengths and weaknesses, and Molly has trouble with the Boggart because she has a lot of fears. Also Lupin's 3rd years had the advantage that there were a lot of them, and Lupin kept switching them so that the Boggart couldn't focus on any of them for any length of time.I think Molly would be capable of defeating Sirius in a duel, but it might depend on the circumstances because I do think Molly was stronger because her family was at stake. --------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Jun 15 2008, 06:34 PM
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#25
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 200 Joined: 6:20pm May 20, 2007 Location: the Hills of Nowhere |
I think that a duel between Molly and Sirius would be almost too close to call. I get the feeling that wizard's duels, more than other forms of combat, are heavily dependent on luck. While skill does play a significant part, just because someone is more skilled doesn't necessarily mean they have much of an advantage (unless there is a very large gap in ability). That being said, both Molly and Sirius were probably skilled duelists back in the day, though I doubt that either of them has fought since the first war, so they would be equally out of practice.
-------------------- You said, "I know that this will hurt,
But if I don't break your heart, things will just get worse. If the burden seems too much to bear, Remember, the end will justify the pain it took to get us there." ~Let It All Out, Relient K |
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Jun 15 2008, 07:23 PM
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#26
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Hiding in the Iron Maiden at Borgin and Burkes Posts: 316 Joined: 7:06pm December 15, 2007 Location: Texas (Britain at heart though) |
I'm automatically inclined to think that Sirius would win, but, after reading some of the comments, I have doubts that he would win without gaining a scratch. If he threatened the lives of her children, he would probably end up like Bellatrix, but if it was straightforward, nobody else was in danger, dueling, I have a sneaking suspicion that Sirius would win, by a small margin, and with some damage to his person, but he would win.
-------------------- RIP Remus; Sirius
 RIP Tonks, Colin, Dobby, Albus. "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"Albus Dumbledore. |
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Jun 16 2008, 10:45 AM
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#27
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Newest Housekeeper at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 711 Joined: 6:46am January 1, 2008 Location: Wishing she was in the Live Lounge |
That is quit a diddle of a question! I think it would have to be Sirius because he is more physically fit than old Moll's however he's quite a bit more cocky so he'd probably laugh too soon... as per! I am extremley thankful that this circumstance never arrived however because I love both of them!
--------------------  <- - you'd only be able to do that at all girls schools!"Harry Potter isn't everything ... but it's right up there with Oxygen! |
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Jun 17 2008, 11:37 AM
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#28
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In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party |
I agree that Molly's kids (or other family member) would need to be threatened in order for Molly to have the edge, but to make it fair, someone Sirius cares for would also have to be threatened: get Molly to hold Harry hostage, and Sirius to hold Ginny hostage - now you have a fair fight!
-------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
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Jun 17 2008, 11:52 AM
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#29
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Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower  Posts: 3,908 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower  |
QUOTE(harrydavid @ Feb 10 2008, 02:11 AM) Also, we need to remember that Bellatrix's wand had been stolen, so she was using an unfamiliar wand at the Battle of Hogwarts. Wouldn't she already be using a stolen wand in OOTP? They are supposed to break your wand when you go to Azkaban. It certainly didn't impead her in killing Tonks either. I really don't understand the logic that some have said that since Molly was a stay-at-home witch that she wasn't good at magic. I rather think that Molly is good at magic. She was able to accio fred and george's products without saying what they were. Usualy you have to say the object your are summoning, she just kept saying ACCIO! over and over again, how would the spell know what to summon? I think some people do not give Molly, or homemakers enough credit. --------------------  "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do." |
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Jun 18 2008, 09:03 AM
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#30
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Dumbledore's Personal Secretary Posts: 5,280 Joined: 10:28am December 31, 2006 Location: at a bowling alley with my boss. |
QUOTE(harrypottergeek2 @ Jun 17 2008, 12:37 PM) I agree that Molly's kids (or other family member) would need to be threatened in order for Molly to have the edge, but to make it fair, someone Sirius cares for would also have to be threatened: get Molly to hold Harry hostage, and Sirius to hold Ginny hostage - now you have a fair fight! I agree harrypottergeek2 !  Sirius would be at his best when protecting Harry just like Molly. That said, I simply cannot say who would win. Luckily, we only had to see them having a spat with words and that was bad enough. A full sclae battle and my heart would break.  QUOTE(Shard @ Jun 17 2008, 12:52 PM) I really don't understand the logic that some have said that since Molly was a stay-at-home witch that she wasn't good at magic. I rather think that Molly is good at magic. She was able to accio fred and george's products without saying what they were. Usualy you have to say the object your are summoning, she just kept saying ACCIO! over and over again, how would the spell know what to summon? I think some people do not give Molly, or homemakers enough credit. I am in total agreement with you on the above Shard ! Just because a person prefers to stay at home doesn't mean that they are not talented or powerful. Molly was content to be a home-maker and be there for her husband and children rather than being a career-woman. It was her choice and she is entitled to full respect for the same. Molly had lost at least two brothers to Voldemort and his DEs and would have known how losing loved ones was like. Remember, in OOTP, the boggart scene, what Molly was most concerned about apart from the danger to her loved ones, was what would happen to Ron and Ginny if she and Arthur died. Maybe Arthur and Molly didn't want their children to grow up without at least one parent and mutually decided that Molly wouldn't come into the arena unless absolutely necessary. And perhaps she wasn't too good on a broom or thestral for the Seven Potters chase. But note that when Ginny was threatened, all the Mother in Molly screamed out for Bellatrix's blood; and what's more she got it too ! --------------------  |
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