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Sirius in OOTP, The grim at 12 Grimmauld Place.

rowena r View Member Profile	Feb 16 2008, 12:10 PM Post #1
Dumbledore's Personal Secretary Posts: 4,717 Joined: 10:28am December 31, 2006 Location: At a violin concert with my boss.	Sirius in OOTP is not the old Sirius we knew in PoA and later in GoF. From the escapee from Azkaban who lived on the run, to the man who seemed trapped by fate in the house he hated, Sirius, as we knew him, had changed somewhat due to circumstances. What was it that made Sirius feel more wretched - living in the house he hated, the feeling that he wasn't doing anything really useful, or the loneliness he suffered for most of the time ? He was more moody, more silent and more distant than we ever knew him to be. Being left alone in that horrible house with none but Kreacher for company for most of the time, listening to Snape's taunts of cowardice now and then, and worrying for Harry took its toll on Sirius as the days wore by. Did he take Snape's taunts to heart after all ? how much did Kreacher's attitude and actions affect the situation ? He brings up the subject of Voldemort Harry's first night at 12GP which turns into a mini war with Molly jumping in on the other side. It is only after Remus intervenes and ends the discussion firmly that Sirius simmers down. Why was it that Sirius calmed down only after Remus told him to ? What caused the outburst in the first place ? He risks his neck to speak to Harry in the fire and is almost caught by Umbridge for it. He is very elated at the thought of Harry forming a group against the ministry. In the end, ordering Kreacher to wait for Dumbledore, Sirius rushes to the Ministry to save Harry, who ironically had gone there to save Sirius, where he is killed by Bellatrix. Was Sirius really trying to live through Harry like Hermione said ? Was it reckless of him to have rushed out to the ministry knowing that both the ministry and the DEs were after him ? Discuss all this and anything else about Sirius - brave wizard, good friend, and godfather extraordinaire. --------------------

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Replies (10 - 19)

wendybird3 View Member Profile	Feb 23 2008, 04:51 PM Post #11
Saucy Sorceress of the Shrinking Solution Posts: 642 Joined: 3:03pm January 11, 2008 Location: New Jersey	QUOTE(Oryx @ Feb 22 2008, 12:19 PM) QUOTE Again as far as rushing to the Ministry: I'm surprised Molly and Arthur, or Bill weren't right behind him. They obviously were not aware that Ron and Ginny had gone along. Wouldn't that be something Molly would have noticed on her clock? Unless she only looked at it if she already expected someone to be potentially in danger, such as Arthur guarding the entrance of the Department of Mysteries at the Ministry. She just assumed that if the kids were at Hogwarts there was no need to consult the clock to check on them. (In COS Ginny is taken to the Chamber during the morning but Molly and Arthur only show up after Harry and Ron went down to the Chamber in the evening. I can't imagine Molly sitting tight at home with Ginny in mortal peril all day.) When Harry visits the Weaslys in DH the clock is set to mortal peril all the time, forgive my bad memory but does he go there between this time and DH? If not then the clock hands being there wouldnt make her run anywhere to look for them. It is explained that in this dangerous time everyone is in danger all the time. I wish I could remember if he visits their home, I may have to go digging through my books. But I thought this might explain why they didnt run out and try to find what was going on with Ron and Ginny. -------------------- The most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched, they must be felt with the heart Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away

Maime the Hunter View Member Profile	Feb 24 2008, 01:58 PM Post #12
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007	QUOTE But I thought this might explain why they didnt run out and try to find what was going on with Ron and Ginny. They weren't exactly in mortal danger when they decided to go with Harry. However, although with the best intentions, they were not behaving with the best of judgment. Did Harry note a "Doing something immensely foolish, reckless, and dangerous" setting on the clock? This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Feb 25 2008, 01:18 PM

invisibilityboos... invisibilitybooster1 View Member Profile	Feb 24 2008, 08:58 PM Post #13
Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 305 Joined: 11:06am July 8, 2007 Location: helping Harry, Ginny, Ron, Hermione, Luna and Neville at an order meeting	What was it that made Sirius feel more wretched - living in the house he hated, the feeling that he wasn't doing anything really useful, or the loneliness he suffered for most of the time ? i think it was a mix of all three because, he said he ran away from the house to James's place at sixteen, also, the fact that he was locked up and couldnt do anything probably got to him because of course, he is not a person that is meant to be locked up in a house forever, but ofcourse, he couldnt do anything about being committed for a crime he wasn't responsible for. and he was very lonley. who wouldnt be? twelve years in azkaban then on the run with a hippogriff, and being locked up with no one Did he take Snape's taunts to heart after all ? how much did Kreacher's attitude and actions affect the situation ? i think honestly, he might have taken some of them to heart, like the arrogance ones and the one about dumbledore not taking him siriusly (spelled wrong onpurpose) because he had been locked in his mothers house, but there is the natural rivalry between them too. Why was it that Sirius calmed down only after Remus told him to ? What caused the outburst in the first place ? I love Molly, but Molly was more out of line than Sirius. I was dissapointed that she defied Sirius as Harry's godfather, rather than trying to lend her experience as a parent to help him. It is not one of Molly's better moments. Lupin tells Sirius to calm down, but he also gently puts Molly in her place by reminding her that she is not the only one who cares about Harry. And Arthur proves he also is on Sirius side. as maime the hunter said. but i think she was wrong for criticizing sirius on his parenting skills. sure she knew harry longer but sirius provided more comfort and understanding to harry, and he knew about harry's feelings of outsider-ness because, he is the one who was locked up as an outcast in azkaban. and sirius did lose James, his brother and best friend, and harry lost james as well, so they share the same level of loss. Was Sirius really trying to live through Harry like Hermione said ? Was it reckless of him to have rushed out to the ministry knowing that both the ministry and the DEs were after him ? i think she has a point. because sirius would love to be rebelling the ministry right under their noses. and i think it was a bit reckless, but anyway, he wasnt going to sit around and wait for them to come back with harry, his "Son" his "Brother" his "Best friend" i mean if you were locked up in a house while your best friend, child or family member were fighting for their lives would you sit paitently and wait? i dont think so. -------------------- "Dumbledores man through and through arent you Potter?" "Yeah I am." Harry said. "Gald we straightened that out" Gryffindor House supporter of SPEW, Member of DA

rowena r View Member Profile	Feb 25 2008, 08:47 AM Post #14
Dumbledore's Personal Secretary Posts: 4,717 Joined: 10:28am December 31, 2006 Location: At a violin concert with my boss.	QUOTE(invisibilitybooster1 @ Feb 24 2008, 09:58 PM) i think she was wrong for criticizing sirius on his parenting skills. sure she knew harry longer but sirius provided more comfort and understanding to harry, and he knew about harry's feelings of outsider-ness because, he is the one who was locked up as an outcast in azkaban. and sirius did lose James, his brother and best friend, and harry lost james as well, so they share the same level of loss. Excellent point invisibilitybooster1 ! I agree that Sirius provided more comfort to Harry than Molly. Sure she loved him and Harry loved her too, but Harry identified more with Sirius. Plus there was the fact that his parents had chosen Sirius as his godfather and that counted a lot with Harry IMO. The feeling that nobody believed you and instead thought you were mad was sgared by Sirius and Harry in oOTP and brought them more closer. It meant a lot to Sirius having Harry near him, and knowing that Harry loved him as much as he loved Harry, but Sirius also knew that he couldn't keep Harry with him all the time and that probably added to his feeling of depression at 12 GP. --------------------

Oryx View Member Profile	Feb 25 2008, 10:39 AM Post #15
Terrortours Travel Agent Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007	QUOTE When Harry visits the Weaslys in DH the clock is set to mortal peril all the time, forgive my bad memory but does he go there between this time and DH? If not then the clock hands being there wouldnt make her run anywhere to look for them. The clock went to almost constant 'In Mortal Peril' when Voldemort came out in the open, just after the Ministry battle. When Arthur was attacked Dumbledore expected that Molly would be able to see it on the clock. QUOTE They weren't exactly in mortal danger when they decided to go with Harry. They were from the moment Lucius et al showed themselves. But I suppose even if Molly saw the clock show her children to be in danger she wouldn't know they were in London rather than at Hogwarts without contacting other Order members.

Maime the Hunter View Member Profile	Feb 26 2008, 01:56 PM Post #16
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007	QUOTE(Oryx @ Feb 25 2008, 08:39 AM) They weren't exactly in mortal danger when they decided to go with Harry. They were from the moment Lucius et al showed themselves. But I suppose even if Molly saw the clock show her children to be in danger she wouldn't know they were in London rather than at Hogwarts without contacting other Order members. I was making a joke--yes a rather lame one--with that post. Note the last entry. Did Harry note a "Doing something immensely foolish, reckless, and dangerous" setting on the clock?

Oryx View Member Profile	Feb 26 2008, 04:30 PM Post #17
Terrortours Travel Agent Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007	OK, so Sirius was depressed. Order members were coming and going through his home. They could see how he was. Do you think any of them thought to try to help him? I would have expected at least Lupin, as his best friend, and Dumbledore, as the one who ordered him to stay put, to at least try to do something. I can imagine a few ways they and others could have helped Sirius feel more useful, at least.

rowena r View Member Profile	Feb 27 2008, 11:08 AM Post #18
Dumbledore's Personal Secretary Posts: 4,717 Joined: 10:28am December 31, 2006 Location: At a violin concert with my boss.	QUOTE(Oryx @ Feb 26 2008, 04:30 PM) OK, so Sirius was depressed. Order members were coming and going through his home. They could see how he was. Do you think any of them thought to try to help him? I would have expected at least Lupin, as his best friend, and Dumbledore, as the one who ordered him to stay put, to at least try to do something. I can imagine a few ways they and others could have helped Sirius feel more useful, at least. Of course they would have tried Oryx. I'm sure Remus would have done his very best in trying to cheer Sirius up. They were as close as any friends could be. Why do you think nobody tried to make Sirius feel better ? They may not have had success with their efforts, but that doesn't mean they just let Sirius wallow in misery. --------------------

Maime the Hunter View Member Profile	Feb 27 2008, 12:15 PM Post #19
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007	QUOTE(Oryx @ Feb 26 2008, 02:30 PM) OK, so Sirius was depressed. Order members were coming and going through his home. They could see how he was. Do you think any of them thought to try to help him? I would have expected at least Lupin, as his best friend, and Dumbledore, as the one who ordered him to stay put, to at least try to do something. I can imagine a few ways they and others could have helped Sirius feel more useful, at least. Jo creates rather a pickle here, as she doesn't seem to make the personal discernment between depression caused by stress and adversity--which Sirius certainly knows--and clinical depression which Sirius also seems to suffer from. But what in the HP books gives anyone the idea that Wizards know how do to deal with the any kind of depression? I think Molly's attitude says it all when she says Sirius was having a "Fits of the sullens". They probably urged him to 'cheer up", or told him he should be happy that he's alive and Harry needs him just to be there. You would think again, Molly who is definitely showing that empty nest syndrome in her behavior would understand this, but I'm not altogether certain Jo feels that fathers feel the same kind of unquestioned devotion to a child, even an adopted child, as mothers. I don't know how many single father's she knows. It is possible in this case that Snape, Molly, and Hermione's attitude towards Sirius is Jo's. There may be a difference in what readers feel could/should have been done, and Jo's thinking Sirius was beyond any help or guidance with his "fit of the sullens".

Oryx View Member Profile	Feb 27 2008, 05:09 PM Post #20
Terrortours Travel Agent Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007	One of the reasons behind Sirius' depression is that he was feeling impotent and useless. In GOF he was very rational and in control of himself because he had the task of watching out for Harry's safety to occupy him. There were things he could have done even from 12GP: serve as practice partner for Order members to improve their dueling skills, conduct research in the Black library, work on inventing or improving magical protective devices (like the shield hats the twins offer on sale the following year). But it seems all people did was expect him to snap out of it.

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