Sirius in OOTP, The grim at 12 Grimmauld Place. |
 Mar 28 2008, 06:21 PM
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#71
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In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility  Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party  |
QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Mar 27 2008, 09:56 AM)  I beleive Kindness to Kreacher would have had to include Sirius showing Kindness and respect to his mother's potrait and his mother's traditions and his mother's property--because Sirius rejection of these things is why Kreacher hated the boy. He hated the boy and man because Kreacher alone witness what lonliness and grief Sirius' mother felt upon losing both her sons. I don't think Kreacher would have changed towards Sirius unless Sirius somehow found out what his brother had done and found a way to make peace with his family. But this doesn't tally with Kreacher's change of heart towards Harry. Before Harry gave the fake locket to Kreacher, he was already responding to Harry just because he was being polite. Yes, he did react far more warmly once the locket was given to him, but this gesture, while very kind, wasn't necessary for Harry to do in order to get in Kreacher's good books. This issue was also addressed when Harry said that he couldn't understand why Kreacher, who LV tried to kill, was so willing to betray Sirius to that same person. His arguement was that he helped the very person who tried to kill him - a valid point! But Hermione explains why: QUOTE "Kreach doesn't think like that. He's a slave; house-elves are used to bad, even brutal treatment; what LV did to Kreacher wasn't that far out of the common way... He's loyal to people who are kind to him, and Mrs. Black must have been, and Regulus certainly was, so he served them willingly and parroted their beliefs... Kreacher had been alone for a long time when Sirius came to live here, and he was probably starving for a bit of affection. I'm sure "Miss Cissy" and "Miss Bella" were perfectly lovely to Kreacher when he turned up, so he did them a favour and told them everything they wanted to know." In the first two bolded parts, it is clear that Kreacher can change his views to match those of whoever is kind to him (rather like Umbridge can change her "views" and "loyalty" so that they match those of whoever can give her power), so as long as Harry continued to be kind and polite to Kreacher, Kreacher would have responded just as well (the same would have held true for Sirius). Kreacher would obey the orders he's given either way because he's magically bound to do so, but just by being nice to him, Harry was gaining the advantage of Kreacher's willingness to be loyal to him - putting the icing on the cake so to speak - just like Miss Cissy and Miss Bella. The locket, as Ron says, was "overkill, mate" - it was merely the whipped cream, cherries, and chocolate shavings  . Great, now I have a craving for Black Forest cake! 
This post has been edited by harrypottergeek2: Mar 28 2008, 06:22 PM -------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
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Mar 28 2008, 11:29 PM
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#72
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium  Posts: 7,133 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet   |
QUOTE It's difficult for me to speak about Hermione's attitude towards Elves because of my own family's history with the institution of slavery; but even without identifyng with the elves, the very fact that she attempts to explain what Kreacher feels when Kreacher is standing right in front of her talking to Harry and telling him what he felt seems to show that Hermione has as little consideration for Elves feelings as Snape has for Lily's. I don't understand why Hermione is being accused of being insensitive. She is explaining what Kreacher is feeling because she knows very well Kreacher will not spell out his feelings for Harry. I don't think for one moment Hermione didn't take Kreacher's feelings at heart. She was trying to help him. Hermione was the only person who thought about elfish welfare; how can you say that she had little consideration for elves feelings? It's the very fact that she cares about them that she started S.P.E.W. in the first place. I certainly think her intentions were in the right place. In the quote below you say that her intentions are genuine: isn't this a contradiction to what you say in the quote above? You are at the same time calling her inconsiderate and genuine. QUOTE Yes, her need and intentions to help are geniune. But she seems more enamoured of her own feelings of benificence towards them. She is so enamoured for example of her own good intentions in GOF and OOP that she doesn't realize that her actions offend the elves and does absolutely nothing to liberate the elves. Her heart is in the right place, but she has a way to go for understanding if she believes Kreacher betrayed Sirius because Sirius was mean to him. as the elf's owner to exact some kind of revenge for his unhappiness. Are you saying that Hermione was only helping the elves to make herself look better? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with the sentence I bolded. First you are saying that she is only enamored of her own intentions; I don't believe Hermione was thinking about herself when she created S.P.E.W. Then you are saying that by trying to help the elves she is offending them; how is she offending them by wanting to help? Lastly you say that she does nothing to liberate them. Hermione knits apparel for the elves in order to "trick" them into freedom. Isn't this an effort by Hermione to do just exactly what you accused her of not doing? Is she not trying to liberate the elves? As for Sirius, I agree with other posters here that had Sirius shown Kreacher kindness, Kreacher wouldn't have betrayed him. So I think Hermione was right on the mark with this. This post has been edited by lirene: Mar 29 2008, 12:34 AM --------------------  |
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Jun 22 2009, 06:42 PM
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#73
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 114 Joined: 11:52am January 31, 2009 Location: Sandston Va |
Kreacher only turns the corner when he is given a frying pan. It comes later but that is how I remember him. He as his forbears to think that think that his only purpose was to follow orders and end up in a glass bottle. He had been well trained. you don't change that conditioning in a few days.
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