Lily/Snape

maybe Snape really was horrified at how Voldemort interpreted the fragment of the Prophecy and changed sides to save the life of the as yet unknown baby who Voldemort was planning to kill.  Snape hated James but did he want him to die?  He wanted the Dementors to give the kiss to Sirius but this was when he and Lupin still thought that Sirius had been the Potters Secret Keeper.  Snape was still operating on the asumption that Sirius had been the spy and was willing to allow his friend, friend's wife and baby to be killed.

I just don't buy the Lily/ Snape love angle.  Maybe the reason Snape changed sides before the Potters were killed is because he knew he owed James for saving his life and he was genuinely horrified at how Voldemort interpreted the incomplete prophecy and felt guilty for his part in James' death.  And no matter how much he hated James, he didn't want this.

Lily/Snape

I can see why Snape would hate Sirius even after learning that he neither betrayed the Potters nor killed Peter.  Not only are there the old debts to settle, but Sirius was an idiot to trust Peter with the secret.  James had made Sirius secret keeper.  He should have taken that to his grave rather than trust a weak friend like Peter.  Snape is many things but he isn't a fool and he seems to have no tolerence for fools.  Snape has obvious contempt for Peter, per HBP.

Sirius tried to kill Snape.  It was Sirius who sent Snape down the tunnel in the first place.  Sirius was willing to let Snape die.  Hard to forget that.  

And until Sirius had a chance to tell Lupin and Harry that they switched secret keepers at the last minute, only Pettigrew, Sirius and the Potters knew.  So in Snape's eyes and justly Sirius was a murdering, back-stabbing fiend.

But James was a different matter.  As much as James hated Snape, he still ran into the tunnel to drag him back.  Snape never knew that they were Animagi or he would have squealed on them for sure so you know James went into the tunnel as himself.  Prongs would never have fit anyway.  James risked death to pull Snape out of there  and as much as Snape hates James, he knows that James was truly brave and unselfish to do what he did and he owes James.

I have to believe that they all thought Sirius was capable of such an act.  Doesn't say much for his relationship with his fellow wizards.

maybe Snape really was horrified at how Voldemort interpreted the fragment of the Prophecy and changed sides to save the life of the as yet unknown baby who Voldemort was planning to kill. . . Maybe the reason Snape changed sides before the Potters were killed is because he knew he owed James for saving his life and he was genuinely horrified at how Voldemort interpreted the incomplete prophecy and felt guilty for his part in James' death.  And no matter how much he hated James, he didn't want this.

I see hints that Snape was fond of Lily, but nothing conclusive.  There is, of course, the infamous "Snape in love" JKR quote, but it need not have referred to Lily.  Perhaps these hints are Rowling red herrings, intended to mask the true object of Snape's affection (Cissy?  Bella?), or to mask something else.  There is Dumbledore's absolute trust of Snape, based on something private that Snape told him.  It might have been that Snape loved Lily, but it need not have been.  As for Voldemort trying to spare Lily as a reward or bribe for Snape... it seems believable.  Yet, how did Voldemort know that Snape loved Lily?  Unrequited love for a mudblood is hardly something a Death Eater would want to discuss with Voldemort, and Snape is an excellent Occlumens.

Personally, I lean slightly toward the Snape/Lily theory.  I think Snape's change of allegiance is believable without it, however.  Being a Death Eater, Snape probably had little compunction about killing for the cause in general.  But he owed James his life, and he does seem to have a sense of honour in this area.  Dumbledore says this is why Snape tries to protect Harry in book 1.

This brings up the interesting question of Snape's values (probably discussed at length elsewhere).  If Snape joined the Death Eaters because he shared their vision of ridding the wizarding world of mudbloods, etc., and changed sides only because he couldn't accept Voldemort's intention to attack the Potters, that puts him in the very awkward position of being a "white hat" without sharing white hat values.

Slightly off topic, but someone mentioned it above.  I don't think Sirius had any intention of actually harming Snape during the werewolf incident.  The author obviously wants us to view both Sirius and James as basically decent people who could be a bit arrogant and thoughtlessly cruel at 15 or 16.  There is a big difference between hating, even humiliating, someone, and attempted murder.  James, who certainly recognized the risk to Snape's life, risked his own to rescue Snape.  And he remained friends with Sirius.  Could he have done, if he thought Sirius had really wanted to kill Snape?  Could Remus, who would have been the murder weapon?

It is an interesting thought about Snape wanting hand over Sirius to the dementors, still thinking he was one of the causes of James and Lily's deaths, but he still seems to hate Sirius just as much in subsequent books, so that can be at best only part of the reason (and if this was part of the reason, imagine how Snape feels now having to share his house with the true betrayer). But Snape isn't prepared to listen to reason in the Shrieking Shack and hear arguments that might prove Sirius innocent, so I think Snape wants Sirius to be punished because of the crime he got away with, of recklessly putting Snape in a situation where he was almost killed, and he isn't too bothered whether this punishment is for something Sirius really did or not.

I feel there is more to it than Snape feeling he has gone into the death eaters too far; somehow I don't think he would have too much of a problem with hurting or killing anonymous people on Voldemort's behalf (his treatment of Neville is close to torture). However the Potters mean something to him, I don't really see a Snape/Lily ship having happened, but I do think Lily was one of the few people who ever stood up for Snape and was ever nice to him, and however much he hated James, I suspect that deep down there is some admiration for someone who would risk his own life to save the life of an enemy, so he would respect both of them, and however much he hated James (and Lily's muggle origins), he didn't want them dead.

My complements to theredwitch.  You've presented some very viable arguments for the Peter-loved-Lily theory.  I think it's a possibility, although it hadn't occurred to me before.  I do have one problem, though, and it would apply to the Snape-loved-Lily theory as well.  If Voldemort had promised someone he'd spare Lily, why didn't he do it?  He could have Stunned her, bound her, probably got past her in any number of other ways.

yeh, if Snape reely was workin 4 LV and hated James that much, surely he would like Sirius, or at least appritiate what he did in bringin about the death of James, but it seems to make him hate Sirius even more

That's right; if he needed her for something he could easily have imperiussed her or stunned her.  He murdered her because she defied him.  I think he may have been requested to spare Lily, by Pettigrew or Snape, but it was for something other than his own needs.

I don't think Snape wants anything from Harry, he has a debt that he owes James.  I think Snape like Sirius has Harry confused with James since they are so much alike.  He is just trying to buy back some peace for his inner self.  After all, Voldemort, who knows, said of Snape, "He hated your father.  but he never wanted you dead."

There has to be something else to it though. I think DD's ironclad reason for trusting Snape cannot be derived from the material we have so far. I do, however, think you are on the right track.

How is "Lily/Snape" an answer to theredwitch's very thoughtful and reasoned post?  

I think this is a very interesting question.  The Lily/Snape theory is growing on me slightly, I have to admit, but I still don't entirely buy it either.  



This is intriguing. I'm wondering, if this is the case, how would it affect Snape's attitude to James's memory?  Might his terrible guilt make him hate James's memory even more?

I believe that Snape and Lily had a relationship prior to the "Snapes Worst Memory" . In his middle years at Hogwarts i think that after Snape became a Death Eater he could not abide being around Lily anymore because she was Muggle born, but he still cared for her.  When he called her a "mudblood" that was it as far as Lily was concerned.  Snape hated James because he feels James stole Lily from him in a way, it was because of James that Snape called her a mudblood to her face.  Possible evidence for this relationship is Hermione believing the writing in the Prince's book was  a girls, Aunt Petunia's use of " that aweful boy" could be referring to Snape as well.   So  Snape  hated James for the teasing, which resulted in the name calling, then to make matters worse James ended up with Lily, and somehow James also saved Snapes life, so he owed his life to someone he hated.  This is all a factor in Snapes decision to leave Voldemort , after he tells Voldy about the prophecy and realizes that he has in a way sealed there doom.  Because he loved Lily, and also because he owed James his life, he decided to fight Voldemort by providing protection to the one prophesied to destroy Voldemort.  It also explains his treatment of Harry.  Harry looks like his father, in a way, Snape is getting back at James for the mistreatment he suffered, but because of Harry's eyes
which are like Lily's , Snape also knows he must protect him.  Sorry this was so long its my first post.

Scotty Rotten, I find it hard to believe that Snape hated James for stealling Lily and nobody ever mentions it.  Sirius, you think, would have a laugh at Snape for that or willingly give this ammunition to Harry but all Sirius says is that Snape really envied James' ability to play Quidditch.
The writing in the Potion's book could have been a girls because the book originally belonged to Snape's mother.  The publishing date was too old to have been released around the time Snape went to school so it was a hand me down from Eileen Prince.

I too think at least some of the writing is Eileen's.  

What if Snape is actually in love with James, but he feels all icky and stuff about it so that's why he hates Harry so much.

Going back to the earlier discussion on Sirius and the Mauraders with regards to Snape -

I wonder who "drew first blood" so to speak?  (For instance, with Harry and Malfoy, Malfoy struck first - otherwise, Harry just would have left him alone.)

My guess is that the conflict began between Snape and Sirius, and that James stuck by his best mate - that James actions towards Snape were as much or more about defending Sirius as it was his own conflict with Snape.

I could be wrong, but that's a guess.


I can tell Sirius is a rather troubled soul - as we saw in OOTP with his screaming mother and his having been rejected by his family and all of that.  If all the pure bloods are related, and Snape's mother is a pure blood, then they have to have some relation, right?  So, considering Sirius is a family outcast . . .

I don't know, my mind is swimming, as this is getting confoosalating!

Whatever the case, I'm one of those that doesn't think Sirius wanted Snape killed by the werewolf, just wanted to scare the dickens out him - but Sirius' sense of adventure (remember how he considered the thrill of the risk greater than the risk to his life?) didn't have the sense to realize Snape most likely would have gotten killed.  James, being ever so slightly more level-headed, would have thought this.

i don't think Sirius was "bad" - just a troubled soul, like Snape, only Sirius dealt with it by cockiness and thrill-seeking and all of that.

I think that you are getting Sirius and Snape confused.  But Sirius was never sorry about what he did so I doubt that it was just a childish prank and he never intended Snape to get hurt.  

I also think Snape drew the first blood.  He knew more about the Dark Arts, so it stands to reason he would know more spells that would draw blood.

 :offtopic: I think Voldemort offered to spare Lily is because his mother did not try to live for him.  Voldy does NOT understand love, so he would have admired her bravery to sacrifice herself for her son.

On-topic.  I was just thinking about the fact that Snape followed where James & company went.  Did Snape just happen to follow them or was it on purpose?  Your thoughts?

I'm glad to know the content of 6 books and subsequent theories introduced haven't been wasted on you.
Lily/snape, indeed. *Snigger*


I don't buy the Lily/Snape theory either(glad to know i'm not alone ), but i also find it difficult to believe that Snape got cold feet by learning that LV decided to kill a baby. He isn't really caring or humane and I
don't see him as a coward either.
I find it difficult to believe that Lily knew about the horcri. Dumbledore wasn't even sure, himself, until HBP.

I think he followed them on purpose because he would have loved to catch them at something and get them expelled.  They were clearly up to something.  It is just like Draco Malfoy following Harry out to Hagrid's cabin and looking on in the window while Norbert is being born.
But I guess you mean on the day of the pensieve memory.  I think Snape was following them on purpose.  I have nothing to back that up just my point of view.  He had some friends.  He was not all alone.  He hung out with a gang of Slytherins.  He could have gone with them after the exam.
Rowling stated in an interview that Voldemort really was going to let Lily live.  I just don't think it was because of Snape because I think Snape was more involved in the feud between him and James.  But I won't repeat my theory why it is on some other threads.

I really want Snape to be a decent person, but something tells me that it wont be and that he will do what is the most beneficial to him.  His explanation of "facts" to Bella at the start of HBP says it all.