Snape and James, why did Snape change sides/ |
 Dec 13 2005, 10:50 PM
Post
#1
|
|
Freelance Daily Prophet Reporter  Posts: 1,537 Joined: 3:18pm August 30, 2005 Location: Mon pays ce n'est pas un pays, c'est l'hiver.    |
This has probably been pointed out years ago and is lost in the mounds of topics.
 : In PS Quirrell/Voldemort says to Harry about Snape and James"'But Snape always seeemed to hate me so much.' 'Oh, he does,' said Quirrell casually, 'heavens yes. He was at Hogwarts with your father, didn't you know? They loathed each other. But he never wanted you dead.' And Dumbledore says something equally interesting. "'Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt... I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father quits. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace...'" "There were quite a few people who thought he had the right idea about things....they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though." Sirius says this when he is talking about Regulus but perhaps it could apply to Snape as well. maybe Snape really was horrified at how Voldemort interpreted the fragment of the Prophecy and changed sides to save the life of the as yet unknown baby who Voldemort was planning to kill. Snape hated James but did he want him to die? He wanted the Dementors to give the kiss to Sirius but this was when he and Lupin still thought that Sirius had been the Potters Secret Keeper. Snape was still operating on the asumption that Sirius had been the spy and was willing to allow his friend, friend's wife and baby to be killed. I just don't buy the Lily/ Snape love angle. Maybe the reason Snape changed sides before the Potters were killed is because he knew he owed James for saving his life and he was genuinely horrified at how Voldemort interpreted the incomplete prophecy and felt guilty for his part in James' death. And no matter how much he hated James, he didn't want this. I know the Lily/Snape shippers might say then why did Voldemort want to let Lily live? Lily knew Voldemort was making a Horcux with Harry's death. Why else would she say "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead"? She knew that he needed to kill someone that night and he didn't use James' death. But how did she know? Something to do with her work. She was brave. Voldemort valued bravery. James was brave too but that was not enough to save him. Maybe Lily knew what was behind the veil and Voldemort could see that in her eyes. I haven't worked out all the angles yet. I am looking for canon. Some whisper to support it all. Maybe someone else can throw something else into the pot and see what comes out. -------------------- "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Hunter Thompson
"Shun the non-believers! Shun! Shun!" from Charlie the Unicorn |
 |
  
 
|
|
Dec 13 2005, 11:03 PM
Post
#2
|
|
Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes Posts: 50 Joined: 8:39pm September 27, 2005 Location: Having butterbeer with Ginny at the Three Broomsticks |
Lily/Snape
-------------------- Eleanor Branstone is an actual character-- in ravenclaw. She has dark-chocolate brown hair, blue eyes, is good at Transfiguration, Charms, Defense Against the Dark Arts, and Potions. Her weaknesses include Herbology and History of Magic.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 14 2005, 09:50 AM
Post
#3
|
|
Gringott's Security Goblin Posts: 3,963 Joined: 11:23am July 15, 2005 Location: Ollivanders |
QUOTE(Eleanor_Branstone @ Dec. 13 2005,23:03 ) Lily/Snape (I agree :D I just think it makes perfect sense) -------------------- |
|
|
|
|
Dec 14 2005, 09:56 AM
Post
#4
|
|
Skiving Snackbox Demonstrator at Weasley's Wizarding Wheezes Posts: 2,682 Joined: 8:17am January 28, 2005 Location: Tapdancing on the Leaky Cauldron bar |
How is "Lily/Snape" an answer to theredwitch's very thoughtful and reasoned post? :rolleyes:
I think this is a very interesting question. The Lily/Snape theory is growing on me slightly, I have to admit, but I still don't entirely buy it either. QUOTE(theredwitch @ Dec. 14 2005,3:50 am) maybe Snape really was horrified at how Voldemort interpreted the fragment of the Prophecy and changed sides to save the life of the as yet unknown baby who Voldemort was planning to kill. Snape hated James but did he want him to die? He wanted the Dementors to give the kiss to Sirius but this was when he and Lupin still thought that Sirius had been the Potters Secret Keeper. Snape was still operating on the asumption that Sirius had been the spy and was willing to allow his friend, friend's wife and baby to be killed. I just don't buy the Lily/ Snape love angle. Maybe the reason Snape changed sides before the Potters were killed is because he knew he owed James for saving his life and he was genuinely horrified at how Voldemort interpreted the incomplete prophecy and felt guilty for his part in James' death. And no matter how much he hated James, he didn't want this. This is intriguing. I'm wondering, if this is the case, how would it affect Snape's attitude to James's memory? Might his terrible guilt make him hate James's memory even more? -------------------- No book is really worth reading at age of ten which is not equally (and often far more) worth reading at the age of fifty...Those of us who are blamed when old for reading childish books were blamed when children for reading books too old for us. No reader worth his salt trots along in obedience to a timetable. (C.S. Lewis)
Viva La Green-Eyed Weasel! |
|
|
|
|
Dec 14 2005, 10:35 AM
Post
#5
|
|
Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 248 Joined: 2:25pm November 9, 2005 |
QUOTE Lily/Snape I'm glad to know the content of 6 books and subsequent theories introduced haven't been wasted on you. Lily/snape, indeed. *Snigger* I don't buy the Lily/Snape theory either(glad to know i'm not alone ), but i also find it difficult to believe that Snape got cold feet by learning that LV decided to kill a baby. He isn't really caring or humane and I don't see him as a coward either. I find it difficult to believe that Lily knew about the horcri. Dumbledore wasn't even sure, himself, until HBP. --------------------  Founding member of the S.S.I.A.E.S.S Society  |
|
|
|
|
Dec 14 2005, 10:47 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Perusing the Magical Menagerie Posts: 87 Joined: 2:15am November 21, 2005 Location: in the laundry washing my grey underpants |
Another Snape/Lily disbeliever posting here:
I'm not so sure about Snape not getting cold feet. Yes, he joined the DE's, and yes, he ran to his master to pass him the information. But seeing that he was not a popular boy, I imagine he might have done that to please his master, to present himself as valuable, to get some credit by someone important, in other words not wasting a thought about the consequences his information might have. So, maybe when he came to think about this, he realised what would happen, and even though I agree, he really doesn't come over as especially humane or caring, it is still a huge step to have someone murdered because of your actions. So yes, I could imagine that this was his turning point. Not a coward, rather making an active choice at the very last moment before the point of no return... :angel: (O.K., this is a bit exaggerated, I admit) :lol: |
|
|
|
|
Dec 14 2005, 11:39 AM
Post
#7
|
|
Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic  Posts: 9,274 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
It is an interesting thought about Snape wanting hand over Sirius to the dementors, still thinking he was one of the causes of James and Lily's deaths, but he still seems to hate Sirius just as much in subsequent books, so that can be at best only part of the reason (and if this was part of the reason, imagine how Snape feels now having to share his house with the true betrayer). But Snape isn't prepared to listen to reason in the Shrieking Shack and hear arguments that might prove Sirius innocent, so I think Snape wants Sirius to be punished because of the crime he got away with, of recklessly putting Snape in a situation where he was almost killed, and he isn't too bothered whether this punishment is for something Sirius really did or not.
I feel there is more to it than Snape feeling he has gone into the death eaters too far; somehow I don't think he would have too much of a problem with hurting or killing anonymous people on Voldemort's behalf (his treatment of Neville is close to torture). However the Potters mean something to him, I don't really see a Snape/Lily ship having happened, but I do think Lily was one of the few people who ever stood up for Snape and was ever nice to him, and however much he hated James, I suspect that deep down there is some admiration for someone who would risk his own life to save the life of an enemy, so he would respect both of them, and however much he hated James (and Lily's muggle origins), he didn't want them dead. --------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
|
|
|
|
Dec 14 2005, 12:46 PM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 67 Joined: 3:45pm December 10, 2005 Location: here |
maybe the reason he hates Sirius so much is because he reminds, reminded him of what Snape had done.
Hang on a sec. did Sirius know that it was Snapes fault sort of? did he know about the prophecy? -------------------- I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.
Bouillabaisse. -- Hermione Bless you -- Ron, page 251 Just because you've got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have -- Hermione, page 459 theres no need to call me sir professor |
|
|
|
|
Dec 14 2005, 09:38 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Freelance Daily Prophet Reporter Posts: 1,537 Joined: 3:18pm August 30, 2005 Location: Mon pays ce n'est pas un pays, c'est l'hiver. |
Sirius tried to kill Snape. It was Sirius who sent Snape down the tunnel in the first place. Sirius was willing to let Snape die. Hard to forget that. And until Sirius had a chance to tell Lupin and Harry that they switched secret keepers at the last minute, only Pettigrew, Sirius and the Potters knew. So in Snape's eyes and justly Sirius was a murdering, back-stabbing fiend.
But James was a different matter. As much as James hated Snape, he still ran into the tunnel to drag him back. Snape never knew that they were Animagi or he would have squealed on them for sure so you know James went into the tunnel as himself. Prongs would never have fit anyway. James risked death to pull Snape out of there and as much as Snape hates James, he knows that James was truly brave and unselfish to do what he did and he owes James. Nobody signs up for the Deatheaters to kill babies. It is not as though Voldemort says sign here and let the baby-killling begin. Nobody would join. Carrying on a war against fully grown adults who stand some chance of defending themselves is not the same as murdering babies in their cribs. There is no glory in that. I think when Snape realized that Voldemort was not going to wait and see who emerges or how the prophecy pans out but was going to murder wizarding babies born in a certain month starting with Harry or just do Harry, he was not prepared to go that far. After all Snape is a human being, however flawed, he does have feelings unlike Voldemort who is a cartoon of pure evil. Rowling made him three dimensional, he does feel. Snape has unfinished business with James and, I think, will affect what he does in the last book with Harry. Harry is his one chance to pay back his debt so that he can, like Dumbledore says "go back to hating your(Harry's) father's memory in peace." The one person whom Snape does respect, Dumbledore, loves Harry even though Snape risked his life spying on Voldemort especially when he returned in GoF. After all Snape is the one "who I believe has left me for ever...he will be killed, of course" Imagine going back to Voldemort to tell him that you are back. You are likely to die before you can get the words out. But Snape never really gets any recognition for all that he does. And he really does want an "Atta Boy!" He wants a medal, he wants some kind of award, he wants the wizarding world to say that he is one heck of a talented guy. He never gets that. All the attention goes to Harry. When Dumbledore believes Sirius in PoA, Snape sounds like he was betrayed by Dumbledore. Does he then start to go over to the Dark Side? Perhaps a little. but Quirrell knows something. How does he know about James and Snape? He wasn't in school with them. Surely the staff doesn't talk about such ancient history. While Voldemort is possessing him, he says "They loathed each other. But he never wanted you dead." At the end of the Half Blood Prince, Snape does nothing to Harry beyond slapping him for calling him a coward. The killing of Dumbledore could be said to be proof that Snape is indeed evil but Harry says "Kill me like you killed him, you coward" Snpae's reaction speaks volumnes. He screams and appears to be in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house. Which is where Snape raises his wand for the only time against Harry and slaps him hard. He could have hurt him without destroying his usefullness to the Dark Lord but he doesn't. He just hollars at him for not being able to keep his mouth shut and his mind closed. How it must irk him that, Harry, who he considers a talentless boob is destined to destroy Voldemort and all the fame and glory that would go with that when Snape will barely be remembered. Or if he is remembered it will be for killing Dumbledore. I don't think Snape is Voldemort's man. He has a debt to discharge to James and, I think, in the end, that is what he will do. Course as I reread the books, I might see something that changes my mind. Every time I look, I see something I never noticed before. -------------------- "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Hunter Thompson
"Shun the non-believers! Shun! Shun!" from Charlie the Unicorn |
|
|
|
|
Dec 15 2005, 01:21 AM
Post
#10
|
|
Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 186 Joined: 1:51am December 14, 2005 |
I agree with you... I don't think it's Lily/Snape. I think it was mentioned before, in the 6th book or something, that when Snape found out his involvement as a Death Eater would include killing Lily and James Potter, he was horrified and changed sides.
I think Snape loathed James as much as Harry loathed Draco. Go back to the chapter of Sectusempra, where Harry accidentally slashed Draco, and at one point Harry was yelling at Hermione something like, "I wouldn't want to do that even to Malfoy". Snape loathes James, to the extent of wanting to humiliate him maybe, but never to kill him. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Snape is still on the Order's side. -------------------- # opaline.
'What a year it has been! Hopefully your heads are all a little fuller than they were... you have the whole summer ahead to get them nice and empty before next year starts...' |
|
|
|
