Snape in OOTP, at the end, what really happened ? |
 Mar 21 2008, 02:19 PM
Post
#1
|
|
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 77 Joined: 12:42pm July 17, 2007  |
Even after DH, I'm still puzzled by this. According to Dumbledore Snape alerted the Order "as soon" as he find out where Harry went.
a) even if we assume Snape has no idea who Padfoot is, he knows of the room Harry's been dreaming about whole year (even if he doesn't know it holds the prophecy), so he knows Harry will go to the Ministry. b) Both Voldemort and DD have their own agenda in this book, so naturally Snape probably knew about both plans. The question, then, is: if Snape is ultimately on the good side, why did the DE's appear before the Order did, and what seems like hours ahead in time ? Even if it kept Snape spying, it still put 6 teenagers in grave danger, not to mention Harry. It seems to me Snape alerted DE's first, possibly saw 6 kids flying away, waited a few hours, and only then alerted the Order (and even later, DD), and a few well aimed taunts at Sirius made sure he went there too. Did Snape, as we saw in PoA, let his Sirius emotions overcome him again ? |
 |
  
 
|
|
Mar 21 2008, 02:32 PM
Post
#2
|
|
Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes Posts: 52 Joined: 1:43pm March 13, 2008 Location: Behind you |
The DE's had been alerted, and not by Snape, they were waiting there, and had arrived long before the DA had. Snape Alerted the Order as fast as he could, and they arrived ASAP as well. Dumbledore was away doing other items of importance, hence, he arrived last. Snape knew Perfectly well who Padfoot was and needed to act in order not to give his position away to Umbridge. Snape also knew about the Prophecy.
--------------------  |
|
|
|
|
Mar 21 2008, 04:02 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Daily Prophet Photographer Posts: 875 Joined: 3:46pm January 7, 2008 Location: Macedonia  |
I agree complitely with Arcalus. Snape alerted OotP after he saw that the children didn't come out from the forest. And they were so deep in the forest, so Snape didn't see them flying. And yes, Voldemort give harry that vision so the DE knew that he would come so they were waiting for him. SNape was on the good side, he wasn't on the bad.
-------------------- |
|
|
|
|
Mar 21 2008, 04:52 PM
Post
#4
|
|
In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party |
Don't forget, this whole ordeal was planned by LV. He had DEs in place as soon as he planted the false memory in Harry, so they knew what to do before Harry even had the dream. Snape, for whatever reason, was not trusted with this information, so he had to find out from Harry when the memory was planted, but he also had to wait for Harry not to return from the Forest before alerting the Order. When Harry was shown the memory, he only checked to make sure Sirius was still safe. He didn't realize what Harry did until some time after that.
-------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
|
|
|
|
Mar 21 2008, 06:47 PM
Post
#5
|
|
Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 107 Joined: 9:47am February 28, 2008 Location: Flat above Zonko's Joke Shop, Hogsmeade. |
QUOTE a) even if we assume Snape has no idea who Padfoot is, he knows of the room Harry's been dreaming about whole year (even if he doesn't know it holds the prophecy), so he knows Harry will go to the Ministry I'm sure we know that Snape did understand what Harry meant when he said "He's got padfoot" but he obviously couldn't say anything directly to Harry infront of Umbridge. As far as i can remember Dumbledore tells Harry that as soon as Harry had said this to Snape; Snape proceeded to contact 12 Grimmauld Place and found that Sirius was there alive and well. It was only then that Snape realised what this meant and knew that Harry would go after Sirius to the ministry did he attempt to find Harry and found that he had went into the forest and not came back out. It was then that he contacted the Order. This is off the top of my head so i'm sorry if it's wrong but i'm pretty confident it's not 
-------------------- Excuse me; are you the imprint of a departed soul?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 21 2008, 10:15 PM
Post
#6
|
|
Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 31 Joined: 9:31pm April 14, 2007 Location: OXNARD, CA 93036 |
QUOTE(HedwigIsntDead @ Mar 21 2008, 04:47 PM)  QUOTE a) even if we assume Snape has no idea who Padfoot is, he knows of the room Harry's been dreaming about whole year (even if he doesn't know it holds the prophecy), so he knows Harry will go to the Ministry I'm sure we know that Snape did understand what Harry meant when he said "He's got padfoot" but he obviously couldn't say anything directly to Harry infront of Umbridge. As far as i can remember Dumbledore tells Harry that as soon as Harry had said this to Snape; Snape proceeded to contact 12 Grimmauld Place and found that Sirius was there alive and well. It was only then that Snape realised what this meant and knew that Harry would go after Sirius to the ministry did he attempt to find Harry and found that he had went into the forest and not came back out. It was then that he contacted the Order. This is off the top of my head so i'm sorry if it's wrong but i'm pretty confident it's not That sounds about right.  And yeah, since LV planted that vision in Harry, the DEs were already there hiding and waiting. That was the plan all along. -------------------- After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 02:22 AM
Post
#7
|
|
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
I still don't understand why we're supposed to think Voldemort is an intelligent leader, if supposedly he didn't share his plan to get Harry out of the castle, with the one Death Eater who could insure that Harry got out of the castle. It doesn't make sense that Severus had to go check up on Sirius. I would think, as he knew Voldemort was trying to get Harry to go to the DOM, his priorty would have been to do everything he could, including pretend to go along with Umbridge to keep Harry getting away.
After five years of watching the Trio, he couldn't have believed they would not managed to escape Umbridge. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 03:19 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Perusing the Magical Menagerie Posts: 91 Joined: 9:37am March 5, 2008 |
QUOTE(HedwigIsntDead @ Mar 21 2008, 07:47 PM) QUOTE a) even if we assume Snape has no idea who Padfoot is, he knows of the room Harry's been dreaming about whole year (even if he doesn't know it holds the prophecy), so he knows Harry will go to the Ministry I'm sure we know that Snape did understand what Harry meant when he said "He's got padfoot" but he obviously couldn't say anything directly to Harry infront of Umbridge. As far as i can remember Dumbledore tells Harry that as soon as Harry had said this to Snape; Snape proceeded to contact 12 Grimmauld Place and found that Sirius was there alive and well. It was only then that Snape realised what this meant and knew that Harry would go after Sirius to the ministry did he attempt to find Harry and found that he had went into the forest and not came back out. It was then that he contacted the Order. This is off the top of my head so i'm sorry if it's wrong but i'm pretty confident it's not right on, dude. you nailed it. QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Mar 22 2008, 03:22 AM) I still don't understand why we're supposed to think Voldemort is an intelligent leader, if supposedly he didn't share his plan to get Harry out of the castle, with the one Death Eater who could insure that Harry got out of the castle. It doesn't make sense that Severus had to go check up on Sirius. I would think, as he knew Voldemort was trying to get Harry to go to the DOM, his priorty would have been to do everything he could, including pretend to go along with Umbridge to keep Harry getting away. After five years of watching the Trio, he couldn't have believed they would not managed to escape Umbridge. as with any organization some things are on a "need to know" basis. confident harry would show, why would voldemort need to pass the info to snape? This post has been edited by rowena r: Mar 22 2008, 10:05 AM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 03:41 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 77 Joined: 12:42pm July 17, 2007 |
QUOTE(HedwigIsntDead @ Mar 22 2008, 12:47 AM) QUOTE a) even if we assume Snape has no idea who Padfoot is, he knows of the room Harry's been dreaming about whole year (even if he doesn't know it holds the prophecy), so he knows Harry will go to the Ministry I'm sure we know that Snape did understand what Harry meant when he said "He's got padfoot" but he obviously couldn't say anything directly to Harry infront of Umbridge. As far as i can remember Dumbledore tells Harry that as soon as Harry had said this to Snape; Snape proceeded to contact 12 Grimmauld Place and found that Sirius was there alive and well. It was only then that Snape realised what this meant and knew that Harry would go after Sirius to the ministry did he attempt to find Harry and found that he had went into the forest and not came back out. It was then that he contacted the Order. I know Snape followed Marauders around but knowing their secret names ? Maybe... Anyway, that is what Dumbledore says - that is why I think that was the official Snape's story. I agree he was the one that alerted the Order and checked on Sirius (with some well placed taunts, I'm sure), but something's fishy in that story. If "he contacted Grimmauld place at once and as soon as he saw Sirius is ok, he tried to find you and contact the Order" is true, why the long gap between the arrival of Harry and the Order ? I don't see Snape running into Umbridge's office immediately after seeing Sirius is ok (because Ginny, Neville and Loona would say so), and certainly none of them saw Snape anywhere near the Forrest, much less in it. And I don't see him patrolling Hogwarts all the time either. Yes, LV planted the visions in Harry's head but it wasn't until he added Sirius - and Harry remembered the room - that Harry acted. Still, I'm thinking the DE's had Snape tell them when Harry would be on the move, out of Hogwarts, to place the DE's. (after all, they probably weren't there for months ever since Harry started having those dreams) This post has been edited by broomwitch: Mar 22 2008, 03:43 AM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 04:02 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Perusing the Magical Menagerie Posts: 91 Joined: 9:37am March 5, 2008 |
I know Snape followed Marauders around but knowing their secret names ? Maybe...
Anyway, that is what Dumbledore says - that is why I think that was the official Snape's story. I agree he was the one that alerted the Order and checked on Sirius (with some well placed taunts, I'm sure), but something's fishy in that story. If "he contacted Grimmauld place at once and as soon as he saw Sirius is ok, he tried to find you and contact the Order" is true, why the long gap between the arrival of Harry and the Order ? I don't see Snape running into Umbridge's office immediately after seeing Sirius is ok (because Ginny, Neville and Loona would say so), and certainly none of them saw Snape anywhere near the Forrest, much less in it. And I don't see him patrolling Hogwarts all the time either. Yes, LV planted the visions in Harry's head but it wasn't until he added Sirius - and Harry remembered the room - that Harry acted. Still, I'm thinking the DE's had Snape tell them when Harry would be on the move, out of Hogwarts, to place the DE's. (after all, they probably weren't there for months ever since Harry started having those dreams) [/quote] I believe Snape informed Dumbledore first, then contacted the order. Many students could have witnessed Harry and the others entering the forrest. I am sure it wouldn't be difficult for a professor to get that information from a student. Once Snape knew Sirius was in no danger he entered the forrest to find Harry. When he could not be found, the order was dispatched to the ministry. That sounds like it would take care of the delay in their arrival. There would be no reason for Snape to pass information to the death eaters. Voldemort already knew Harry would come. Snape had been charged with protecting Harry since Voldemort's fall when Harry was a baby. Snape was protecting Lily's child. Snape would have done anything to ensure Harry's safety. He was trustworthy to the end. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 04:39 AM
Post
#11
|
|
Quality Quidditch Supplies Test-Flyer Posts: 1,283 Joined: 4:05am September 25, 2005 Location: Submitting an application at Weasleys Wizarding Weezes |
Severus only saw the hallway to the Department of Mysteries he probably didnt know where it was located. I think Severus had a change of heart and turned from the bad side after Sirius died.
This post has been edited by Bradley: Mar 22 2008, 04:53 AM -------------------- "Now, Harry you must know all about Muggles, tell me, what exactly is the function of a rubber duck?" Arthur Weasley
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 04:41 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Perusing the Magical Menagerie Posts: 91 Joined: 9:37am March 5, 2008 |
QUOTE(Bradley @ Mar 22 2008, 05:39 AM) Severus only saw the wallway to the Department of Mysteries he probably didnt know where it was located. I think Severus had a change of heart and turned from the bad side after Sirius died. Snape was always on the good side. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 04:55 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Quality Quidditch Supplies Test-Flyer Posts: 1,283 Joined: 4:05am September 25, 2005 Location: Submitting an application at Weasleys Wizarding Weezes |
QUOTE(darksoul707 @ Mar 22 2008, 02:41 AM) QUOTE(Bradley @ Mar 22 2008, 05:39 AM) Severus only saw the wallway to the Department of Mysteries he probably didnt know where it was located. I think Severus had a change of heart and turned from the bad side after Sirius died. Snape was always on the good side. Even if he was on the good side he didnt know where Harry was going I am pretty sure Severus has never seen that hallway in person. -------------------- "Now, Harry you must know all about Muggles, tell me, what exactly is the function of a rubber duck?" Arthur Weasley
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 04:59 AM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Perusing the Magical Menagerie Posts: 91 Joined: 9:37am March 5, 2008 |
During Harry's occlumency training when Snape saw the image in Harry's head he wanted to know how it got in there. I think Snape knew exactly what and where the department of mysteries was. That door is what Arthur Weasley was guarding when he was attacked by nagini. The order knew. Snape should have known as well since he was part of the order.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 10:14 AM
Post
#15
|
|
Dumbledore's Personal Secretary  Posts: 4,714 Joined: 10:28am December 31, 2006 Location: At a violin concert with my boss. |
Snape, according to Dumbledore, searched the forest for Harry and that would have counted for some time lapse in contacting the Order. After making a reasonable search, Snape would have contacted the Orde/Dumbledore and it would have taken some time for the Order to get to the death chamber even if they apparated right outside the Ministry. And what is notable is that all of them - Sirius, Remus, Moody, Tonks and Kingsley came together. They hadn't split up to search for Harry inside the Ministry. Or if they had, then they had got together again by the time they reached the place where they found Harry and Neville. And like Snape says later to Bellatrix, he couldn't have done anything more other than informing the Order about Harry's disappearance. His hands were tied as he was a spy. --------------------  |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 11:39 AM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
Snape wasn't always on the good side or he couldn't have become a double agent.
In OOP There is very little to suggest that Snape understood that he was a part of and responsible to the team-as they were to him--until DH, when most of the team was dead. The way Dumbledore ran things Snape seemed under the impression that he was the only person in the Order taking any risk, and the members of the Order owed him their lives and support. It seems to me the only person in the Order who owed Dumbledore and each and every person in the Order his service was Snape. Severus Snape was the only person in the Order who have given faithful service to Voldemort and service that cause misery and loss of life to we don't know how many innocent people. Spying on Voldemort to atone for his service, was the least Snape could do. In the real world the only person who had the right to set conditions for Snape's pardon should have been the Minsitry and Dumbledore. And as they were victimized by his actions, certainly Harry or someone who represented Harry and others whose lives Snape as a Death Eater helped cause suffering should have had a chance to speak their of their pain, and should have been given the opportunity to confront Snape, and Snape the opportunity face this and offer his regret for his actions. Yet Dumbledore allows Snape to set conditions for this offer of mercy: No one, not even those who lost family as a direct result of Snape's service to Voldemort when he was indeed a Death Eater, can know Dumbledore's reasons for trusting a former Death Eater. Because he is afraid to face his own past, Dumbledore lets Snape avoid confronting the reality of what he had done to others. Although he was not husband or even friend to Lily at the time of his death, no one was allowed to see his Patronus because he too ashamed to let these people--especially the people who loved Lily as well, because he was too--what? Too sensitive or perhpas, too weak of resolve and spirit to endure their knowledge of his error, but continue in the good fight against Voldemort? (I don't know who among us would be any stronger, though.) Imagine being someone like Britney Speares with all of shortcomings exposed to the world, your life fodder for judgement for millions of strangers. It would have been more difficult I suppose for Snape with a small community, but maybe they would have, given the chance, understood and forgiven him and helped him to move on beyond the longing for something that was never his, and pointless guilt. Snape was allowed to nurse his bruised ego and stop the Occlumency lessons even though they were supposedly life saving. Dumbledore at no time checked on Snape's progress or methods of teaching Harry. I'm certain that Dumbledore would have noted what Snape never could have. As Harry couldn't suppress his emotions it was better to teach Harry to do what Harry alone could do: use these strong emotions to against Voldemort. However he is the Hero, Harry had to discover this on his own, and he might not have had not Sirius died and so Harry could give into his pain. He really did resent Dumbledore for not rewardeding his remorse by giving him the DADA, completely missing the fact that a second chance to do things better was great gift--something because of his betrayal of Lily and himself, (which occured the moment he willingly swore alliegiance to Voldemort) He didn't deserve. It's tricky--but virtue rather than evil, is to complex a word to use. Just, I think is a better word, because a Just man recognizes and owns his wrong, accepts a second chance as the mercy it is, and does his best to pay his debts. Snape was paying a debt; Dung was paying a debt. The others however, including Sirius, were doing what they have always done, without thought of any payment, reward, or glory but the knowledge that they had done their best to stand against Voldemort to save their fellows from suffering and death. By Snape's own admission, he didn't get this part of the fight against Voldemort until "Lately" as he says, and that wasn't at the end of OOP, but during the events of DH. This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 22 2008, 11:47 AM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 11:51 AM
Post
#17
|
|
Perusing the Magical Menagerie Posts: 80 Joined: 8:11pm March 21, 2008 Location: *gasp!* I am from Mars but it is a secret shhh... |
i am all for believing that snape is all good...
soooo i think he didnt mean to lure sirius to the ministry... just acidently... uhh doesnt sound to realistic huh? but i still believe in snape 100% and sirius was mean to snape first!! lol sooo yeah i am confused about the whole thing too.... 
-------------------- As ice cold hands rip into your heart
That's if you've still got one that's left Inside that cave you call a chest.   |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 12:00 PM
Post
#18
|
|
Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 270 Joined: 12:04am December 31, 2007 Location: Playing Poker with the Giant Squid |
I agree that Snape was definitely on the good side from Lily's death to his own. The biggest problem I have with this scenario is the time lapse. Harry gave Snape his crypted message shortly before sundown, the arrived at the minsistry after dark and were there for quite awhile alone and fighting death eaters. The order shows up and fight and then we have the LV/DD duel and Harry is sent back to hogwarts. He arrives in Dumbledores office shortly before sunrise. Even though it is summer and the days are longer, this is still several hours and the order wasn't there fighting for that long, which means that Harry and crew had been gone for several hours (including flying time). It seems that Snape took an aweful long time to alert the order.
The only explanation I can think of is that Snape is a loner. He likes to work by himself and not rely on others, especially when the others are people like sirius. He is alone as a spy and alone in life. He isn't to terribly worried about Harry and at the same time he is. His feelings towards Harry are very complex they have a very much I'll keep you alive for Lily, but make your life hell every chance I get relationship. So I still don't understand the time gap, but maybe Snape was conflicted about what he should do and that is why he dawdeled (sp?). --------------------  |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 12:25 PM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
QUOTE The only explanation I can think of is that Snape is a loner. He likes to work by himself and not rely on others, especially when the others are people like sirius. People like Sirius. Sirius was willing to work and trust a former Death Eater. Snape is the one who was allowed by Dumbledore to indulge his childhood grudge. Sirius and Snape had a great deal in common that if Snape had been made, as Sirius does on his, to confront his mistakes held on and ask Harry's pardon for something Peter did, to confront his mistakes realistically and in context. They both loved Lily. There is a wonderful scene in the movie the Robe where Marcellus the Roman soldier who won Jesus' robe confesses to Peter that crucified him, Peter in turn confesses to Marcellus that in Jesus's hour of need, he, Jesus friend denied him.Snape hated Sirius because at the end of her life, Lily loved Sirius as a brother and friend and thought of him, Severus, as he had chosen to be, her enemy. Healing is one of the of the most wonderous qualities of love as mercy and redemption, that Jo doesn't deal with, when it comes to Snape. She doesn't allow him to heal, and gives him no help to seek healing and understanding. I think had Snape been allowed to be more honest with Sirius and Lupin and himself, and Sirius and Lupin able to confront Snape about his dark past rather than having to accept him on Dumbledore's word alone, the three men would have gotten along better. There should have been more dialog about their past than Lupin's question whether or not Snape the adult, who had chosen to be a death Eater couldn't get past a boyhood to let a man know at least the justice he did--Dumbledore choose to hear Snape out. Could not Snape have done this for Sirius. They may not have loved each other as brothers, but I think they, especially Snape, would have felt more like their comrade, part of team, rather than feeing he had to work with the likes of Sirius, and teach the likes of Potter's son on sufferance and Dumbledore's Orders. Dumbledore needed to give Snape a little push so the man could grow up, not more bitter and resentful. This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 22 2008, 12:33 PM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 02:00 PM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 77 Joined: 12:42pm July 17, 2007 |
I think Snape definitely risked more than anyone else on the "team" (but as we see in DH, Dumbledore didn't fully trust anyone in the Order, the teachers, not even Harry). He repents for giving the prophecy to his master and is coldly drafted by Dumbledore in a long spy service which meant he risked his life with DE's, and being hated and questioned in the Order (and when he finally gets to teach DADA, it's meaningless because he knows what will happen by the end of the year).
Dumbledore being the mediator between Sirius-Snape and Snape-Harry, could - no, should - have done more. He should have slapped (metaphorically) some sense in the two adults holding a grudge from school and not leave an 11 year old in thinking his father saving the teacher's life was the reason for the anymosity. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 02:56 PM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
What was Snape risking that made any one think Snape risked more? Tonks, Hermione, Luna, Kingsley were injured, Cedric was killed. Emmeline was killed, Sirius was killed, Moody was killed, Arthur attacked by the Snake, Fred was killed, poor fourteen year old Colin was killed. They were all risking their lives for the same cause and Voldemort could only kill him once.
As to him being a loner, what was he to say to a group of people he had spent the first war fighting against? Sirius showed in the cave that he was willing to give Snape the benefit of the doubt when Ron and Hermione started bickering over Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. Snape never gave any quarter as far as Snape was concerned. He never gave any thought to the fact that if Sirius was Harry's godfather, then Lily as well James must have trusted and loved him enough to trust him with her most precious possession. When Moody starts brigning out pictures of the old Order or talking about the Death of the Mckinnons or Molly's brothers Snape certainly couldn't admit that he too remembers that day because he was there as a Death Eater. I don't know how any of them did it--that is sat at the same table with Snape without wondering did this former enemy strike one of the blows that cost their former comrades their lives? It couldn't have been comfortable for him, but no one in the Order, including and especially Sirius, is resposible for Snape's discomfort, if he felt any, except Snape himself. One of the reason Dumbledore might have not encourage Snape to be up front about his change, is that more people at that table lost family members than Harry. All of them lost either family or comrades at arms when Snape was solidly on Voldemort's side. Molly might not have been able to over look the fact that Snape might have been one of the group of Death Eaters that attacked her brothers. I would hope that part of Snape's tears when he read Lily's letter was due to his knowledge that he might have been among the Death Eaters who attacked the Marlene Mckinnon with Voldemort. Snape's is a totally different experience in the war. I agree, Dumbledore shoud have encouraged Snape to tell Sirius and Lupin the truth. Sirius had to tell Harry that it was his idea, that he pursuaded Lily and James to trust Peter. Lupin and Sirius had to apologize for distrusting each other. That couldn't have been easy. But Dumbledore was harder on Sirius, Lupin, even Harry when it came to confronting their mistakes, because he expected more them. He expected Sirius, Lupin, Harry to have the courage to face their mistakes and move on. I don't think he thought Snape was capable of doing the same thing. This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 22 2008, 03:14 PM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 03:12 PM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 77 Joined: 12:42pm July 17, 2007 |
Snape was risking his life, and more importantly, possibly giving info on the Order and the big HarryPlan to any DE's if they pressed him hard enough. (how many scenes were there such as him and Voldemort in the graveyard, in GoF?)
Dumbledore coldly (in light of DH) says in OOTP to Harry: What did I care for others that died, when all that mattered was you ? Compare this to Snape in DH: I only watched those die whom I couldn't save. Snape may have given info for capture of Emmeline, but he did not kill Sirius or Moody or Mr Weasley or Colin. The end justifies the means - according to Dumbledore. I said he was not trusted or liked by the others - I attribute this to Dumbledore's lack of communication. I don't remember reading Snape was with those that attacked the Prewetts or McKinnon's. The tears were out of Snape's feelings for Lilly. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 03:18 PM
Post
#23
|
|
Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 6,834 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
QUOTE(broomwitch @ Mar 22 2008, 03:00 PM) I think Snape definitely risked more than anyone else on the "team" (but as we see in DH, Dumbledore didn't fully trust anyone in the Order, the teachers, not even Harry). He repents for giving the prophecy to his master and is coldly drafted by Dumbledore in a long spy service which meant he risked his life with DE's, and being hated and questioned in the Order (and when he finally gets to teach DADA, it's meaningless because he knows what will happen by the end of the year). Snape risked a lot, but so did other Order members. And as Maime points out, there were many Order members, and families who had suffered. Dumbledore couldn't appoint Snape sooner because of Voldemort's jinx and he needed Snape in his capacity as spy; why appoint him sooner with the risk of losing him? Dumbledore making snape DADA teacher after his misfortune with the ring Horcrux was perfect timing. --------------------  |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 03:23 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
QUOTE(broomwitch @ Mar 22 2008, 02:12 PM) Snape was risking his life, and more importantly, possibly giving info on the Order and the big HarryPlan to any DE's if they pressed him hard enough. (how many scenes were there such as him and Voldemort in the graveyard, in GoF?) You said Snape risked more, It is with this I do not agree. More than James and Lily who though barely escaping Voldemort three times went on to defy him? More than Molly's brothers, more than any one who from the very beginnings of things defied Voldemort? Lupin risked his life to go among the werewolves, and Arthur to guard the DOM alone when Voldemort himself could have shown up--and did in the person of Nagini, or Hagrid risk with the giants, they all risks their lives to rescue Harry from his house, Neville and the other risked their lives. Snape did not risk more. But Arthur has a family, a wife--all in the Order--he risks more by standing up for his beliefs. It's very tricky this virtuos as opposed to Just man thing--but I maintain that Snape was a "Just" man--that is a man willing to pay his debts, if not at first to society, at least at first to a dear friend. That is not to be sneered at and I do not, but I do feel Snape's actions should be elivated above those who stood against Voldemort from the beginning. QUOTE I don't remember reading Snape was with those that attacked the Prewetts or McKinnon's. The tears were out of Snape's feelings for Lilly. The point is, when the Prewetts and Mckinnons were attacked Snape was indeed a Death Eater, not an Order spy. Nothing Dumbledore can say would change that. Dumbledore is not responsible for any suspicions the Order has towards Snape in that respect, because it is Snape actions that are considered.But perhaps if the Order understood Snape's remorse from Snape himself, at least the two people who also loved Lily, maybe things could have gone better between them. They can't heal if Dumbledore forcing them to pretend the past--especially Snape's past as he was the Death Eaeter-- didn't exist or doesn't matter. Edited, However, we also have to consider that Dumbledore doesn't know what Snape did as a Death Eater either. It's not exactly Snape would want to share over tea and cookies with Dumbledore or anyone else who at that time was his enemy. Dumbledore may consider it better for everyone that he or no one asks questions of Snape like "Where you there when...?" But the questions is there, and not every one is as good as ignoring unpleasantness as Molly and Dumbledore. It occured to me that one of the reasons Molly was so sharp with Sirius is because she couldn't confront Snape, but Sirius had to "take it" so to speak. This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 22 2008, 03:37 PM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 03:40 PM
Post
#25
|
|
|
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 77 Joined: 12:42pm July 17, 2007 |
Well it is risking more to my eyes. Others did risk too, but they did not posess as much knowledge on the ultimate plan as Snape did and so could not reveal crucial info if questioned and tortured. Sacrifices had to be made in the strategic game between Voldemort and Dumbledore, Snape was just one of the players who had just as much of a chance of dying as anyone else, and I don't think many Order members were Voldemort's most trusted man.
Yes, he was a DE, but that doesn't mean he was involved in those specific attacks. Dumbledore has always said he trusted Snape, and that should have been enough for everyone (except maybe Harry because the reason for the trust is so closely related to him). To question Snape is ultimately to question Dumbledore's judgement. I can imagine Sirius' and Harry's reaction if Snape had said "I loved Lilly" and it's not pretty. I think there's too much anger between the three of them to heal. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2008, 03:55 PM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
We have to agree to disagree on the definition of risk or Snape's value as spy exceeding the value of the service of all those others who gave their lives.
QUOTE Yes, he was a DE, but that doesn't mean he was involved in those specific attacks. Does it matter which attack he was involved in, if innocent people were tortured and killed and he was there to help Voldemort and his fellow Death Eaters do it? I cannot as easily as some readers dismiss the posibility that Snape was indeed involved as a participant Death Eaters in many horrors as Jo herself tells us he witness and was presents at these events when she explains why Snape can see threstals. This past, his Death Eater activities is what seperates Snape from the rest of the people sitting at that table in Order meetings, not what Dumbledore asks them to do, or their willingness to do it. QUOTE Others did risk too, but they did not posess as much knowledge on the ultimate plan as Snape did and so could not reveal crucial info if questioned and tortured. I don't think Voldemort gave a flying fig as to how much any one he killed could reveal to him. What could Charity Bubrage tell him, or the five year old Montgomery boy, or Cedric? If an individual couldn't tell more but defied Voldemort to the death anyway--especially someone like Emmeline whose death provides cover for Snape-- then how is Snape's risk greater than hers? I dont understand what you mean.Snape had no more knowledge than any one. He was forever asking Dumbledore why he should do the things he ask and Dumbledore forever refused to tell him why. Dumbledore's misdirection when it came to why he wanted Snape to kill him was so exclusive of information about the Elder Wand it was nearly a lie. The only thing Snape knew is that Harry must surrender to Voldemort so Voldemort could kill him. He had no idea that Harry wouldn't die, he thought the boy a sacrificial pig. QUOTE I can imagine Sirius' and Harry's reaction if Snape had said "I loved Lilly" and it's not pretty. Why should Sirius reaction be "pretty". Sirius would recall Snape who loves Lily calling her a mudblood, that Snape was friends with people who felt they had the right to kill her simply because she existed and neither one of her parents were magical people. He now knows Snape, who loved Lily and who joined with the very people Lily forsaked her young adult hood to fight. Sirius would understand that for as he was a Death Eater, Snape was Lily's enemy, the very enemy who gave Voldemort incentive to hunt Lily down in her home. I imagine Sirius's reaction would have been very like Harry's when he found out it was Snape who told Voldemort the prophesy. Then "Sirius" the adult would remember he trusted Peter.People can survive confrontations, even angry ones and find some kind of resoloution to difficulties. They don't have to love each other, but know at least that they are fighting for the same thing. This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 22 2008, 04:05 PM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 25 2008, 04:10 PM
Post
#27
|
|
Buying a Half-Kneazle Posts: 519 Joined: 12:29am February 9, 2006 Location: Stoatshead Hill  |
What the heck was Severus Snape doing in the hours between being told about Padfoot and the arrival of the Order in the Department of Mysteries? He was not in the woods, according to Dumbledore, he did not go into the woods until after he alerted the order for the final time.
This passage of time is one of the things that led me to believe that Snape was on Voldemort's side. The time line of incident at the Department of Mysteries starts at 5:00pm in the classroom and ends at Sunrise after Harry is told the prophecy. If you would like a more detailed explanation, I wrote an essay on the subject. There is a large amount of detail that tells us that the evening took a long time. Here is a short summary:
Here is what I now think happened:
This post has been edited by cbm: Mar 25 2008, 08:42 PM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 01:26 AM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
Snape did not contact Dumbledore. The members of the Order were at Sirius' house waiting for Dumbledore who was in route to 12 Grimmuald Place. Page 830 OOP Sirius ordered Kreacher to tell Dumbledore where they had gone, which he did, laughing because he knew one way or the other Sirius would probably die--either one of the Ministry Aurors would spot and kill him or the Death Eaters.
What doesn't make sense to me is, knowing exactly what Voldemort wanted--Harry after the Prophesy--is why Snape felt he had to check on Sirius? But no matter. Order went immediately to help the teens. They could have used one more body. Snape could have disguised himself and went, but Jo wanted to keep our suspicions going. Snape told Bellatrix he didn't come to help the Death Eaters because Voldemort told him to stay away rather than blow his cover. If this is true, and I have no reason to think he was lying, going to help the Order without disguising himself would be direct disobedience to the Dark Lord and would have blown his cover. Snape wasn't going to risk this. He felt his place as a spy was too valuable. It wasn't as true at that time as it would become later. Dumbledore wasn't dying at the end of OOP and was very strong. Snape's value to Dumbledore increased when Dumbledore put on the cursed ring and brought death to himself, and he needed someone to inherit the Wand. Then Dumbledore had to make alternate plans. But at no point does Snape the spy give the Order or the ministry inside information that will save lives, but gives Voldemort information that cost lives. Kingsley warns the Weasleys at the wedding that the Ministry had fallen and Death Eaters were on the way. Snape does use his influence in protecting those few students who remain--most of the half-blood aand all of the Muggle born students are not at Hogwarts but in hiding. I think Snape just decided going to help the Order rescue the young people was not worth the risk to his cover. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 09:08 AM
Post
#29
|
|
|
Buying a Half-Kneazle Posts: 519 Joined: 12:29am February 9, 2006 Location: Stoatshead Hill |
My problem with that night is the amount of time it took from when Snape left Umbridge's office until help arrived at the Ministry. Dumbledore the ruthless, manipulating head of the Order of the Phoenix makes no mention of Snape contacting him, why can't you believe that Dumbledore did not not tell the whole truth to Harry? After all, he says that Snape did everything that night "at once". I think there is a minimum of at least 6 hours between Snape leaving the Umbridge's office and help arriving at the ministry. That can hardly be called "at once"
We are left with 2 choices:
By the way, I like Dumbledore as a character. I do. I just think that he had to be ruthless to win. It makes all of the other parts of the story fit together. This post has been edited by cbm: Mar 26 2008, 09:17 AM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 10:14 AM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
We know that Dumbledore was still hiding things from Harry, even in OOP. He tells Harr about the prophesy but not that Snape was the one who took the prophesy to Voldemort. How is that , by the way "the Better of Snape"?
How could Dumbledore tell Harry the "better of Snape" without telling him the worst that the man was? QUOTE Dumbledore the ruthless, manipulating head of the Order of the Phoenix makes no mention of Snape contacting him, why can't you believe that Dumbledore did not not tell the whole truth to Harry? Yes, Dumbledore can be ruthless and is manipulative. But I would hope that Dumbledore didn't want Harry to go to the DOM to confront Death Eaters and Voldemort. Dumbledore arrived in time because Harry Potter is an adventure fantasy. It works on screen, the scene (not in the book) where Sirius tells Lucius to get away from his Godson. The book was better: QUOTE "Sirius hurtled out of nowhere, rammed Dolohov with his shuld and sent him flying out of the way. Page 803 OOPSnape didn't contact Dumbledore; Dumbledore was in route to Grimmuald Place. How could Snape contact Dumbledore who was in hiding? After speaking to Kreacher, I imagine Dumbledore asked Snape where he was, why he allowed Harry to leave grounds. I'm certain Snape may have repeated what he always says to Dumbledore about Harry's arrogance, his impatience, his tendancy to rush off where angel's fear to thread --like James going into a tunnel where he knew a werewolf waited to pull Snape to safety. Eddie Murphy has a joke about the Poltergiest movie where he says he would have left the house--even with Carol Ann still in the television. When his character is asked didn't he try and save his Daughter: "Yeah, I'm a man. I changed the channel..." It is possible both leaders told Snape to stay put. But it is also possible Dumbledore told Snape he should have sat on Harry if need be, give the boy a tincture of the Draught of Living Death if necessary to keep Harry and his friends safe at Hogwarts. And Snape very defensively answered: I checked on Black, I searched the forrest, I sent the Order to the DOM, I told Black to stay put. You can't blame me because your blasted Gryffindors go charging off like headless chickens into danger... Dumbledore's admiring statement that Sirius was not the kind of man who would choose his own safety when he believes others in danger, I think tells us how Albus feels a person should behave in such situations. But he also possibly feels that as a Slytherin, Snape did what he thought was best without risking his own life or cover. He sent the Order to save the teens. He looked in the forest--the boy wasn't there. He couldn't go down to the DOM and start fighting Death Eaters and maintain his cover, especially if the Dark Lord did tell him to stay put. As Snape was closer to Harry, I'm certain Voldemort did contact him to make certain Harry received and believed his message. There were bad guys in this sceanario who were not at all passive and Snape is connected to them. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 12:10 PM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Buying a Half-Kneazle Posts: 519 Joined: 12:29am February 9, 2006 Location: Stoatshead Hill |
Maime,
Your order of events is off. Snape did not go into the forest until after alerting the Order that Harry was in the DOM. This is a long time after Harry left the Toads office. The order is established when Dumbldore says: QUOTE "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort’s. He alerted certain Order members at once." What was Snape doing during the intervening hours? He was not in the forest. Where and what was he doing?
Dumbledore heaved a great sigh and continued, `Alastor Moody, Nymphadora Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt and Remus Lupin were at Headquarters when he made contact. All agreed to go to your aid at once. Professor Snape requested that Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at Headquarters to tell me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment. In the meantime he, Professor Snape, intended to search the Forest for you. This post has been edited by cbm: Mar 26 2008, 12:11 PM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 12:48 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
QUOTE When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort’s. He alerted certain Order members at once." You are right! I did read sequence wrong. QUOTE What was Snape doing during the intervening hours? He was not in the forest. I don't know. Smoking? Chatting with Voldemort? He said he went into the forest to look for them. He wasn't on his way to the DOM that is for certain.I see what you mean, now. Severus left the office to contact Sirius--so he says. When he returned to Umbrige's office they had gone to the forest. Ginny hexs seems to have have gotten rid of Umbridge's goon squad and nothing indicates that Snape helped Ron, Ginny, Neville, and Luna escape. If he did help them, then why didn't he follow the young people straight to Harry? (Except for Luna and Neville--the others knew he was a double agent and I think Neville and Luna could be trusted or he could have told them to remain behind and just taken Ron.) He could have stopped them from fleeing by assuring Harry Sirius was safe. In fact why is it Ginny, Ron, Neville, and Luna are able to find Harry but Snape does not if he knew they were in the forest? This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 26 2008, 01:03 PM |
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 06:16 PM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 102 Joined: 5:05pm June 29, 2007 Location: looking for Spinners's End |
LMAO!! smoking thats funny
-------------------- "..suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hood-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-hairedboy cried in a corner... A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies...A girl was laughing as a scrawney boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick -"
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 06:18 PM
Post
#34
|
|
|
Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 102 Joined: 5:05pm June 29, 2007 Location: looking for Spinners's End |
I think that Snape litterally ran to Dumbledore's office, because Lily's son was in trouble
-------------------- "..suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hood-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-hairedboy cried in a corner... A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies...A girl was laughing as a scrawney boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick -"
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 26 2008, 06:20 PM
Post
#35
|
|
|
Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 102 Joined: 5:05pm June 29, 2007 Location: looking for Spinners's End |
I also think that Snape had an emotional break down, before going to DD
-------------------- "..suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hood-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-hairedboy cried in a corner... A greasy-haired teenager sat alone in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies...A girl was laughing as a scrawney boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick -"
|
|
|
|
