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Snape in OOTP, at the end, what really happened ?

broomwitch View Member Profile	Mar 21 2008, 02:19 PM Post #1
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 77 Joined: 12:42pm July 17, 2007	Even after DH, I'm still puzzled by this. According to Dumbledore Snape alerted the Order "as soon" as he find out where Harry went. a) even if we assume Snape has no idea who Padfoot is, he knows of the room Harry's been dreaming about whole year (even if he doesn't know it holds the prophecy), so he knows Harry will go to the Ministry. b) Both Voldemort and DD have their own agenda in this book, so naturally Snape probably knew about both plans. The question, then, is: if Snape is ultimately on the good side, why did the DE's appear before the Order did, and what seems like hours ahead in time ? Even if it kept Snape spying, it still put 6 teenagers in grave danger, not to mention Harry. It seems to me Snape alerted DE's first, possibly saw 6 kids flying away, waited a few hours, and only then alerted the Order (and even later, DD), and a few well aimed taunts at Sirius made sure he went there too. Did Snape, as we saw in PoA, let his Sirius emotions overcome him again ?

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Replies (20 - 29)

Maime the Hunter View Member Profile	Mar 22 2008, 02:56 PM Post #21
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007	What was Snape risking that made any one think Snape risked more? Tonks, Hermione, Luna, Kingsley were injured, Cedric was killed. Emmeline was killed, Sirius was killed, Moody was killed, Arthur attacked by the Snake, Fred was killed, poor fourteen year old Colin was killed. They were all risking their lives for the same cause and Voldemort could only kill him once. As to him being a loner, what was he to say to a group of people he had spent the first war fighting against? Sirius showed in the cave that he was willing to give Snape the benefit of the doubt when Ron and Hermione started bickering over Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. Snape never gave any quarter as far as Snape was concerned. He never gave any thought to the fact that if Sirius was Harry's godfather, then Lily as well James must have trusted and loved him enough to trust him with her most precious possession. When Moody starts brigning out pictures of the old Order or talking about the Death of the Mckinnons or Molly's brothers Snape certainly couldn't admit that he too remembers that day because he was there as a Death Eater. I don't know how any of them did it--that is sat at the same table with Snape without wondering did this former enemy strike one of the blows that cost their former comrades their lives? It couldn't have been comfortable for him, but no one in the Order, including and especially Sirius, is resposible for Snape's discomfort, if he felt any, except Snape himself. One of the reason Dumbledore might have not encourage Snape to be up front about his change, is that more people at that table lost family members than Harry. All of them lost either family or comrades at arms when Snape was solidly on Voldemort's side. Molly might not have been able to over look the fact that Snape might have been one of the group of Death Eaters that attacked her brothers. I would hope that part of Snape's tears when he read Lily's letter was due to his knowledge that he might have been among the Death Eaters who attacked the Marlene Mckinnon with Voldemort. Snape's is a totally different experience in the war. I agree, Dumbledore shoud have encouraged Snape to tell Sirius and Lupin the truth. Sirius had to tell Harry that it was his idea, that he pursuaded Lily and James to trust Peter. Lupin and Sirius had to apologize for distrusting each other. That couldn't have been easy. But Dumbledore was harder on Sirius, Lupin, even Harry when it came to confronting their mistakes, because he expected more them. He expected Sirius, Lupin, Harry to have the courage to face their mistakes and move on. I don't think he thought Snape was capable of doing the same thing. This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 22 2008, 03:14 PM

broomwitch View Member Profile	Mar 22 2008, 03:12 PM Post #22
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 77 Joined: 12:42pm July 17, 2007	Snape was risking his life, and more importantly, possibly giving info on the Order and the big HarryPlan to any DE's if they pressed him hard enough. (how many scenes were there such as him and Voldemort in the graveyard, in GoF?) Dumbledore coldly (in light of DH) says in OOTP to Harry: What did I care for others that died, when all that mattered was you ? Compare this to Snape in DH: I only watched those die whom I couldn't save. Snape may have given info for capture of Emmeline, but he did not kill Sirius or Moody or Mr Weasley or Colin. The end justifies the means - according to Dumbledore. I said he was not trusted or liked by the others - I attribute this to Dumbledore's lack of communication. I don't remember reading Snape was with those that attacked the Prewetts or McKinnon's. The tears were out of Snape's feelings for Lilly.

lirene View Member Profile	Mar 22 2008, 03:18 PM Post #23
Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 6,834 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet	QUOTE(broomwitch @ Mar 22 2008, 03:00 PM) I think Snape definitely risked more than anyone else on the "team" (but as we see in DH, Dumbledore didn't fully trust anyone in the Order, the teachers, not even Harry). He repents for giving the prophecy to his master and is coldly drafted by Dumbledore in a long spy service which meant he risked his life with DE's, and being hated and questioned in the Order (and when he finally gets to teach DADA, it's meaningless because he knows what will happen by the end of the year). Snape risked a lot, but so did other Order members. And as Maime points out, there were many Order members, and families who had suffered. Dumbledore couldn't appoint Snape sooner because of Voldemort's jinx and he needed Snape in his capacity as spy; why appoint him sooner with the risk of losing him? Dumbledore making snape DADA teacher after his misfortune with the ring Horcrux was perfect timing. --------------------

Maime the Hunter View Member Profile	Mar 22 2008, 03:23 PM Post #24
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007	QUOTE(broomwitch @ Mar 22 2008, 02:12 PM) Snape was risking his life, and more importantly, possibly giving info on the Order and the big HarryPlan to any DE's if they pressed him hard enough. (how many scenes were there such as him and Voldemort in the graveyard, in GoF?) You said Snape risked more, It is with this I do not agree. More than James and Lily who though barely escaping Voldemort three times went on to defy him? More than Molly's brothers, more than any one who from the very beginnings of things defied Voldemort? Lupin risked his life to go among the werewolves, and Arthur to guard the DOM alone when Voldemort himself could have shown up--and did in the person of Nagini, or Hagrid risk with the giants, they all risks their lives to rescue Harry from his house, Neville and the other risked their lives. Snape did not risk more. But Arthur has a family, a wife--all in the Order--he risks more by standing up for his beliefs. It's very tricky this virtuos as opposed to Just man thing--but I maintain that Snape was a "Just" man--that is a man willing to pay his debts, if not at first to society, at least at first to a dear friend. That is not to be sneered at and I do not, but I do feel Snape's actions should be elivated above those who stood against Voldemort from the beginning. QUOTE I don't remember reading Snape was with those that attacked the Prewetts or McKinnon's. The tears were out of Snape's feelings for Lilly. The point is, when the Prewetts and Mckinnons were attacked Snape was indeed a Death Eater, not an Order spy. Nothing Dumbledore can say would change that. Dumbledore is not responsible for any suspicions the Order has towards Snape in that respect, because it is Snape actions that are considered. But perhaps if the Order understood Snape's remorse from Snape himself, at least the two people who also loved Lily, maybe things could have gone better between them. They can't heal if Dumbledore forcing them to pretend the past--especially Snape's past as he was the Death Eaeter-- didn't exist or doesn't matter. Edited, However, we also have to consider that Dumbledore doesn't know what Snape did as a Death Eater either. It's not exactly Snape would want to share over tea and cookies with Dumbledore or anyone else who at that time was his enemy. Dumbledore may consider it better for everyone that he or no one asks questions of Snape like "Where you there when...?" But the questions is there, and not every one is as good as ignoring unpleasantness as Molly and Dumbledore. It occured to me that one of the reasons Molly was so sharp with Sirius is because she couldn't confront Snape, but Sirius had to "take it" so to speak. This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 22 2008, 03:37 PM

broomwitch View Member Profile	Mar 22 2008, 03:40 PM Post #25
Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 77 Joined: 12:42pm July 17, 2007	Well it is risking more to my eyes. Others did risk too, but they did not posess as much knowledge on the ultimate plan as Snape did and so could not reveal crucial info if questioned and tortured. Sacrifices had to be made in the strategic game between Voldemort and Dumbledore, Snape was just one of the players who had just as much of a chance of dying as anyone else, and I don't think many Order members were Voldemort's most trusted man. Yes, he was a DE, but that doesn't mean he was involved in those specific attacks. Dumbledore has always said he trusted Snape, and that should have been enough for everyone (except maybe Harry because the reason for the trust is so closely related to him). To question Snape is ultimately to question Dumbledore's judgement. I can imagine Sirius' and Harry's reaction if Snape had said "I loved Lilly" and it's not pretty. I think there's too much anger between the three of them to heal.

Maime the Hunter View Member Profile	Mar 22 2008, 03:55 PM Post #26
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007	We have to agree to disagree on the definition of risk or Snape's value as spy exceeding the value of the service of all those others who gave their lives. QUOTE Yes, he was a DE, but that doesn't mean he was involved in those specific attacks. Does it matter which attack he was involved in, if innocent people were tortured and killed and he was there to help Voldemort and his fellow Death Eaters do it? I cannot as easily as some readers dismiss the posibility that Snape was indeed involved as a participant Death Eaters in many horrors as Jo herself tells us he witness and was presents at these events when she explains why Snape can see threstals. This past, his Death Eater activities is what seperates Snape from the rest of the people sitting at that table in Order meetings, not what Dumbledore asks them to do, or their willingness to do it. QUOTE Others did risk too, but they did not posess as much knowledge on the ultimate plan as Snape did and so could not reveal crucial info if questioned and tortured. I don't think Voldemort gave a flying fig as to how much any one he killed could reveal to him. What could Charity Bubrage tell him, or the five year old Montgomery boy, or Cedric? If an individual couldn't tell more but defied Voldemort to the death anyway--especially someone like Emmeline whose death provides cover for Snape-- then how is Snape's risk greater than hers? I dont understand what you mean. Snape had no more knowledge than any one. He was forever asking Dumbledore why he should do the things he ask and Dumbledore forever refused to tell him why. Dumbledore's misdirection when it came to why he wanted Snape to kill him was so exclusive of information about the Elder Wand it was nearly a lie. The only thing Snape knew is that Harry must surrender to Voldemort so Voldemort could kill him. He had no idea that Harry wouldn't die, he thought the boy a sacrificial pig. QUOTE I can imagine Sirius' and Harry's reaction if Snape had said "I loved Lilly" and it's not pretty. Why should Sirius reaction be "pretty". Sirius would recall Snape who loves Lily calling her a mudblood, that Snape was friends with people who felt they had the right to kill her simply because she existed and neither one of her parents were magical people. He now knows Snape, who loved Lily and who joined with the very people Lily forsaked her young adult hood to fight. Sirius would understand that for as he was a Death Eater, Snape was Lily's enemy, the very enemy who gave Voldemort incentive to hunt Lily down in her home. I imagine Sirius's reaction would have been very like Harry's when he found out it was Snape who told Voldemort the prophesy. Then "Sirius" the adult would remember he trusted Peter. People can survive confrontations, even angry ones and find some kind of resoloution to difficulties. They don't have to love each other, but know at least that they are fighting for the same thing. This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 22 2008, 04:05 PM

cbm View Member Profile	Mar 25 2008, 04:10 PM Post #27
Buying a Half-Kneazle Posts: 519 Joined: 12:29am February 9, 2006 Location: Stoatshead Hill	What the heck was Severus Snape doing in the hours between being told about Padfoot and the arrival of the Order in the Department of Mysteries? He was not in the woods, according to Dumbledore, he did not go into the woods until after he alerted the order for the final time. This passage of time is one of the things that led me to believe that Snape was on Voldemort's side. The time line of incident at the Department of Mysteries starts at 5:00pm in the classroom and ends at Sunrise after Harry is told the prophecy. If you would like a more detailed explanation, I wrote an essay on the subject. There is a large amount of detail that tells us that the evening took a long time. Here is a short summary: Hermione telling them it is 5 P.M. in the classroom Leaving while dinner is going on to the “din of loud voices and the clatter of cutlery on plates”. The sun is “falling towards the top of the trees in the Forbidden Forest.” The walk into the forest “seemed like a long time” as they went “so deep into the forest that the tree canopy blocked out all light." They “soared out into a blood red sunset” while on the Thestrals. As they were flying Harry saw that “only the lights of Muggle towns that gave them any clue how far from the ground they were” Also as he was flying “his mouth was dry and frozen from the rush of cold night air”, and he had “lost all sense of how far they had come”. Dumbledore telling Harry he will see him in 30 minutes. On Harry’s arrival back in the castle, “There was a cool line of pale green along the horizon: Dawn was approaching”. He was greeted by the portrait Phineas Nigellus who asks him “And what brings you here in the early hours of the morning?” While talking to Dumbledore he saw “The sun was rising properly now. There was a rim of dazzling orange visible over the mountains”. And finally he “watched the sunlight … sliding slowly across the polished surface of Dumbledore’s desk. This is not a short night. When I first read it, I assumed that Sirius died in the early evening. After digging at it for a long time, I came to the conclusion that Severus Snape was not as quick as he could have been. Before DH, I blamed this delay on Voldemort, now I blame it on Dumbledore. I did not realize how ruthless Dumbledore could be in trying to achieve victory over Voldemort. Here is what I now think happened: After leaving the toad's office, Snape checks to make sure Sirius is OK and inform Dumbledore what was happening. He keeps Dumbledore informed the rest of the night. Dumbledore tells Snape to watch Harry. Snape sees Harry, Hermione, and the toad enter the forest. He then sees the rest of the 6 follow them in. Snape sees the Thestrals fly over the school with the 6 aboard ot their way to London. When Lucius touches his mark to inform Voldemort he is confronting Harry, at that point, Snape sends the order to the rescue. Snape goes into the woods, not to search for Harry, but to search for Umbridge. All of this is at Dumbledore's orders. It is Dumbledore's attempt to bring Voldemort into the open by having the Order ambush the Death Eaters. It is a situation much like the night of the 7 Potters in DH. Dumbledore knows Harry is safe as his blood resides in Voldemort, so he is willing to risk Harry to bring Voldemort into the open. I realize the evidence is thin, but there is too much there to think the time line is a mistake. So I think that Dumbledore was not not telling Harry the whole truth when he said that Snape's actions that evening were "at once". This post has been edited by cbm: Mar 25 2008, 08:42 PM

Maime the Hunter View Member Profile	Mar 26 2008, 01:26 AM Post #28
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007	Snape did not contact Dumbledore. The members of the Order were at Sirius' house waiting for Dumbledore who was in route to 12 Grimmuald Place. Page 830 OOP Sirius ordered Kreacher to tell Dumbledore where they had gone, which he did, laughing because he knew one way or the other Sirius would probably die--either one of the Ministry Aurors would spot and kill him or the Death Eaters. What doesn't make sense to me is, knowing exactly what Voldemort wanted--Harry after the Prophesy--is why Snape felt he had to check on Sirius? But no matter. Order went immediately to help the teens. They could have used one more body. Snape could have disguised himself and went, but Jo wanted to keep our suspicions going. Snape told Bellatrix he didn't come to help the Death Eaters because Voldemort told him to stay away rather than blow his cover. If this is true, and I have no reason to think he was lying, going to help the Order without disguising himself would be direct disobedience to the Dark Lord and would have blown his cover. Snape wasn't going to risk this. He felt his place as a spy was too valuable. It wasn't as true at that time as it would become later. Dumbledore wasn't dying at the end of OOP and was very strong. Snape's value to Dumbledore increased when Dumbledore put on the cursed ring and brought death to himself, and he needed someone to inherit the Wand. Then Dumbledore had to make alternate plans. But at no point does Snape the spy give the Order or the ministry inside information that will save lives, but gives Voldemort information that cost lives. Kingsley warns the Weasleys at the wedding that the Ministry had fallen and Death Eaters were on the way. Snape does use his influence in protecting those few students who remain--most of the half-blood aand all of the Muggle born students are not at Hogwarts but in hiding. I think Snape just decided going to help the Order rescue the young people was not worth the risk to his cover.

cbm View Member Profile	Mar 26 2008, 09:08 AM Post #29
Buying a Half-Kneazle Posts: 519 Joined: 12:29am February 9, 2006 Location: Stoatshead Hill	My problem with that night is the amount of time it took from when Snape left Umbridge's office until help arrived at the Ministry. Dumbledore the ruthless, manipulating head of the Order of the Phoenix makes no mention of Snape contacting him, why can't you believe that Dumbledore did not not tell the whole truth to Harry? After all, he says that Snape did everything that night "at once". I think there is a minimum of at least 6 hours between Snape leaving the Umbridge's office and help arriving at the ministry. That can hardly be called "at once" We are left with 2 choices: JKR made mistakes in leaving the numerous clues to the time line for that evening and everything happened much quicker. JKR meant for the time line to be decoded and used as evidence of Snape's guilt. I think option 2 is correct. I think Snape was following Dumbledore's orders. I would never call Snape good, but he did follow Dumbledore's orders, even after Dumbledore was dead. By the way, I like Dumbledore as a character. I do. I just think that he had to be ruthless to win. It makes all of the other parts of the story fit together. This post has been edited by cbm: Mar 26 2008, 09:17 AM

Maime the Hunter View Member Profile	Mar 26 2008, 10:14 AM Post #30
Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007	We know that Dumbledore was still hiding things from Harry, even in OOP. He tells Harr about the prophesy but not that Snape was the one who took the prophesy to Voldemort. How is that , by the way "the Better of Snape"? How could Dumbledore tell Harry the "better of Snape" without telling him the worst that the man was? QUOTE Dumbledore the ruthless, manipulating head of the Order of the Phoenix makes no mention of Snape contacting him, why can't you believe that Dumbledore did not not tell the whole truth to Harry? Yes, Dumbledore can be ruthless and is manipulative. But I would hope that Dumbledore didn't want Harry to go to the DOM to confront Death Eaters and Voldemort. Dumbledore arrived in time because Harry Potter is an adventure fantasy. It works on screen, the scene (not in the book) where Sirius tells Lucius to get away from his Godson. The book was better: QUOTE "Sirius hurtled out of nowhere, rammed Dolohov with his shuld and sent him flying out of the way. Page 803 OOP Snape didn't contact Dumbledore; Dumbledore was in route to Grimmuald Place. How could Snape contact Dumbledore who was in hiding? After speaking to Kreacher, I imagine Dumbledore asked Snape where he was, why he allowed Harry to leave grounds. I'm certain Snape may have repeated what he always says to Dumbledore about Harry's arrogance, his impatience, his tendancy to rush off where angel's fear to thread --like James going into a tunnel where he knew a werewolf waited to pull Snape to safety. Eddie Murphy has a joke about the Poltergiest movie where he says he would have left the house--even with Carol Ann still in the television. When his character is asked didn't he try and save his Daughter: "Yeah, I'm a man. I changed the channel..." It is possible both leaders told Snape to stay put. But it is also possible Dumbledore told Snape he should have sat on Harry if need be, give the boy a tincture of the Draught of Living Death if necessary to keep Harry and his friends safe at Hogwarts. And Snape very defensively answered: I checked on Black, I searched the forrest, I sent the Order to the DOM, I told Black to stay put. You can't blame me because your blasted Gryffindors go charging off like headless chickens into danger... Dumbledore's admiring statement that Sirius was not the kind of man who would choose his own safety when he believes others in danger, I think tells us how Albus feels a person should behave in such situations. But he also possibly feels that as a Slytherin, Snape did what he thought was best without risking his own life or cover. He sent the Order to save the teens. He looked in the forest--the boy wasn't there. He couldn't go down to the DOM and start fighting Death Eaters and maintain his cover, especially if the Dark Lord did tell him to stay put. As Snape was closer to Harry, I'm certain Voldemort did contact him to make certain Harry received and believed his message. There were bad guys in this sceanario who were not at all passive and Snape is connected to them.

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