Why did Snape join TOOP first time?, why did S turn good - assuming he did |
 Sep 16 2005, 07:31 AM
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#1
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 34 Joined: 8:05am September 14, 2005 Location: Finland  |
I know, this is repetition of the much discussed theme, but still, I think (and I can be wrong, often am, but there is no way I can wade through all the posts and check SORRY
 ) that this is less discussed part of Snape's history.If we assume (and I do, till I SEE absolutely positively undeniable proof to the contrary - but that's just me) that Snape truly did change his allegiance what made him change. It cannot have been James and Lily's DEATH, since - according to DD, he was working for the order before that. Yet he was still Voldy's man when he heard the prophesy. So what happened in that time (little over a year, wasn't it) between the telling of the prophecy and the death of Lily and James that made Snape change his mind about Voldemort and the Dark arts? I think that starting point for that was that Voldemort ordered both Lily and Alice to be killed before their could give birth to the child that would be his downfall. That would - or at least it ought to - make anyone pause, and though Snape did think of Lily as a "Mudblood" that is a long way from wanting her dead WITH her unborn child. Besides, we do not know how well he knew the Longbottoms and what relationship he might have had with Alice - who WAS a pureblood. It's possible that they even dated once, if Alice was a Slytherin. Any other theories anyone? :ponder: |
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Sep 16 2005, 08:01 AM
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Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 261 Joined: 9:08am July 21, 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia |
I thought this was obvious, maybe you should go back and re-read the books.
It went like this: Snape working for Voldemort, heard the prophercy and reported it. Months later: Voldemort targets the Potters. Snape regrets telling him the prophercy and changes sides before: Months later: Voldemort kills the Potters. Snape is already working for the order. You see? --------------------  Sirius Black: Confronted Death. Overcame Insanity. Escaped Azkaban. Evaded Dementors. Outwitted Ministry. ...Killed by drapery. |
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Sep 17 2005, 11:40 PM
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#3
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 34 Joined: 8:05am September 14, 2005 Location: Finland |
yes, I did see that. It's just that nowhere has it been said that Voldemort went ONLY after the Potters. He didn't know the whole prophesy, therefore he didn't know he would be "choosing" between the boys. To him, the prophesy could have been about either Harry or Neville. He just went for Harry first.
Now everybody has been assuming that V went for Harry because he saw Harry as the greater danger. However, we have not heard from Voldemort on that subject, and it's possible he went for Harry first because he found him first or because he thought Harry as the least likely to be the one, and therefore less likely to have some mysterious quality that would be dangerous to him (boy did he get that wrong!) and he was saving Neville, the pure-blood boy who might have inherited some really poweful magic from his ancestors, for last. It's even possible that he wanted to make his last horcrux with Harry, so that he would be at his most powerful when he went for Neville. As for the danger Snape put the Potter's in being the reason for his turning good ... well when Harry told people that that was it, everybody was surprised, THEY didn't think that was enough reson for Snape to change. Or that it was enough for Dumbeldore to believe in his change. There must have been something more. And Voldemort being willing to go after and kill two PUREBLOOD wizards and their son, might indeed have been the final eye-opener for Snape - and possibly even for Regulus. And once the "spell" of Voldemort's personality, the lure for power and the illusion of "brotherhood" or whatever it was the Death Eaters thought they had with him and together, was broken, then it was possible for Snape to look back at it all and be disgusted at what he had done and what he had become - and THEN he could also have been very sorry that he was unable to stop more killings - even when the victim was James. But I suppose we will find ALL the reasons for why DD believed in Snape (and why Snape changed) in the next book. |
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Sep 18 2005, 12:00 AM
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#4
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup Posts: 27 Joined: 8:53pm June 19, 2005 Location: Greenwich, England |
QUOTE(TMK @ Sep. 18 2005,00:40 ) yes, I did see that. It's just that nowhere has it been said that Voldemort went ONLY after the Potters. He didn't know the whole prophesy, therefore he didn't know he would be "choosing" between the boys. To him, the prophesy could have been about either Harry or Neville. He just went for Harry first. Now everybody has been assuming that V went for Harry because he saw Harry as the greater danger. However, we have not heard from Voldemort on that subject, and it's possible he went for Harry first because he found him first or because he thought Harry as the least likely to be the one, and therefore less likely to have some mysterious quality that would be dangerous to him (boy did he get that wrong!) and he was saving Neville, the pure-blood boy who might have inherited some really poweful magic from his ancestors, for last. It's even possible that he wanted to make his last horcrux with Harry, so that he would be at his most powerful when he went for Neville. As for the danger Snape put the Potter's in being the reason for his turning good ... well when Harry told people that that was it, everybody was surprised, THEY didn't think that was enough reson for Snape to change. Or that it was enough for Dumbeldore to believe in his change. There must have been something more. And Voldemort being willing to go after and kill two PUREBLOOD wizards and their son, might indeed have been the final eye-opener for Snape - and possibly even for Regulus. And once the "spell" of Voldemort's personality, the lure for power and the illusion of "brotherhood" or whatever it was the Death Eaters thought they had with him and together, was broken, then it was possible for Snape to look back at it all and be disgusted at what he had done and what he had become - and THEN he could also have been very sorry that he was unable to stop more killings - even when the victim was James. But I suppose we will find ALL the reasons for why DD believed in Snape (and why Snape changed) in the next book. I can give you one reason why Dumbledore came to trust Snape. Because Snape proved himself to Dumbledore by working for him, passing information on Voldemort to him, doing things for the Order. It's like what happened with Harry and the textbook of the Half Blood Prince's. Harry had no reason to trust the book, but it had helped him so much. Then, all of a sudden, he casts a terrible spell on Draco. Snape is this terrible spell in this analogy. Anyhow, that's what I think. Regarding why he first joined the good side, in the first place, I'm not quite sure, to be honest with you, although what you said was probably the best wager. -------------------- "Neither can live while the other survives..."
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Sep 18 2005, 02:38 PM
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#5
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Snape's Supreme Protector Posts: 1,593 Joined: 8:54pm July 21, 2005 Location: At the secret Snape Command, preparing my minions as Supreme Protector!  |
QUOTE(Rei @ Sep. 16 2005,09:01 ) I thought this was obvious, maybe you should go back and re-read the books. It went like this: Snape working for Voldemort, heard the prophercy and reported it. Months later: Voldemort targets the Potters. Snape regrets telling him the prophercy and changes sides before: Months later: Voldemort kills the Potters. Snape is already working for the order. You see? kind of a harsh response. -------------------- Fellow Leaky Wendell has recently promoted me to Snape's Supreme Protector!
All hail Supreme Protector SnapetheGood!!!!!!!!! I soooooooooooooo love the man in black! |
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Sep 18 2005, 03:18 PM
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#6
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 186 Joined: 3:11am July 21, 2005 |
I'm beginning to have a different view now that I've read HBP. We notice that Trelawny knows it's Snape that overhears the prophecy. Which means she's not in a trance. This can mean one of two things.
1. Her real prophecies aren't always made in a trance-like state like we see in POA. or 2. Snape did hear the whole prophecy, he just didn't report the whole thing. I think the latter would be a very good reason why DD would be more inclined to trust Snape. If he knew Snape had heard the prophecy in its entirety, but only reported half of it to LV, it would show his true allegiences. He has to pass on enough for LV to still trust him, but DD knows he's not passing it all along. Unfortunately, the first half of the prophecy isn't as vague as it seems on first review. This may or may not have been the intention of Snape. He hated James after all... But I think there's more to trusting Snape than just switching sides and playing spy for the Order. |
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Sep 18 2005, 03:20 PM
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#7
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 186 Joined: 3:11am July 21, 2005 |
Oops, just realized I got a bit off of the original thread there. As for why he turned to begin with? Maybe it was the prophecy itself that made him have second thoughts. Many people already believe Snape wants to be on the winning side, whichever that may be. Which is why he wants to play both sides. The prophecy told him the winning side may not be LV's after all. That could have prompted his whole double-agent life to begin with.
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Sep 18 2005, 03:35 PM
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Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic  Posts: 9,274 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(MissMinerva @ Sep. 18 2005,9:18 pm) I'm beginning to have a different view now that I've read HBP. We notice that Trelawny knows it's Snape that overhears the prophecy. Which means she's not in a trance. Actually, it doesn't mean she isn't in a trance, merely that Aberforth brought Snape into the room after she had finished the prophecy.Dumbledore wouldn't lie to Harry, so the reason he gives about Snape switching sides when he found out how Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy will be true, though there is probably more to it which we don't know, such as why Dumbledore believed Snape's regret was genuine. But that regret is for the death (or at the time likely death) of the Potters, even if we don't fully understand why yet, as there is no evidence Voldemort ever went after the Longbottoms, and Dumbledore (and Jo herself) tells us that he went after Harry because he saw him as the bigger threat. --------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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Sep 19 2005, 01:50 AM
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#9
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 186 Joined: 3:11am July 21, 2005 |
I agree that she had finished the prophecy. But if Snape missed half the prophecy it was due to getting caught and the noise that interruption may have caused. I still think there's a chance he heard the whole thing. Rowling doesn't include things for no reason. Now, she may have just used Trelawny as a convenient way to reveal that the eavesdropper was Snape. Or she may be pointing out that he was still there after the prophecy. So I think there's at least a chance he heard the whole thing.
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Sep 19 2005, 02:10 AM
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#10
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Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 63 Joined: 10:58am August 6, 2005 Location: Canada |
I totally agree with MissMinerva here; I have thought that Snape may have heard the entire prophecy since I first read HBP and I think that's a good idea why DD trusted Snape
 I think that Snape decided to go over to the order & work for DD after hearing the prophecy because he intended to work both sides for his own gain. However, If he truly is loyal to DD as TMK suggests in the first post, I still think this theory works, as Snape was very young when he joined the DE's, but he wasn't stupid. He knew LV kills those who desert him, so when Snape hears the prophecy, he only tells LV half, knowing that Lv will then create his match. If Snape told DD that he knew the entire prophecy but only told LV half in hopes of destroying him, he would be able to gain his trust. Plus, I suppose it was Snape who told DD that it was the Potters who ended up being the targets, which would confirm the story he's telling. |
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