The Swine Flu, Do we have a reason to be worried? |
 Oct 27 2009, 09:13 AM
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#231
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Sundae-Nut-Chopper at Florean Fortescue's  Posts: 923 Joined: 10:41pm March 2, 2007 Location: Entering the Ministry of Magic    |
QUOTE(Twilightsfire @ Oct 27 2009, 06:13 AM)  Y'know, I'm probably coming off as something of a jerk here, but I've always had this distrust of the Pharmaceutical industry after I did a little research about the last time anyone came up for a long-lasting cure for any illness. Well, yeah. I can’t say that I think your comments sound very compassionate...to put it mildly. You go on about distrusting the government and acting as though its so inept and you resent the control the pharmaceutical companies have and the profits they make. You cite FDR as the hero because he didn’t let the pharmaceutical companies control the fight against polio, but you act as though there is some sort of government conspiracy to hide the costs of fighting the H1N1. So which is it? Is the government the big bad wolf or is it the pharmaceutical companies? Or is everyone the big bad wolf except you? The US seems intent on maintaining its capitalist system. NO PUBLIC OPTION FOR HEALTHCARE OR WE WILL ALL DIE! (Or something equally drastic...) We’re hearing that over and over in the press. But when something like the H1N1/swine flu comes along there are as many complaints about the lack of vaccine as about the supposed stupidity of even producing it. Well, where’s the tipping point for you? I guess polio was “deadly” enough to warrant the trouble of producing vaccine and vaccinating, but other diseases don’t meet the ‘adequate number of dead’ criteria - just a waste of tax money? Your cynicism about the pharmaceutical companies isn’t accompanied by any alternative solutions. If Obama should take the FDR approach, the cries of “SOCIALISM!!” would be fierce and defiant. We live in a capitalist system, and we seem to like it (at least the majority seem to), so what is the point of demonizing the pharmaceutical companies? I’m not a fan of them, but that’s the system we’ve got - and why we have it. (And frankly, FDR’s policies were basically socialist). And I can imagine the cries of 'FOUL PLAY' if the government WAS in total control and decided not to bother to even produce vaccine... I fail to see why you so adamantly oppose vaccination for those who don’t have your healthy level of resistance - or why you would applaud the fact that healthcare workers aren’t immunized in very high numbers and could be spreading disease to the most vulnerable people. Maybe it’s a form of social darwinism? Cull the herd? If you’re not fit, well, why are you still around? You do have the choice to just not bother to be vaccinated. Why do you resent that others might want to recommend it or get the vaccine themselves? (Some people, like myself, actually prefer prevention. And prevention saves money in the long run ***novel concept***) This post has been edited by chloe squibbulus: Oct 27 2009, 09:29 AM -------------------- "I would like to say a few words. Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! And now before we go to bed, let us sing the school song! Everyone pick their favorite tune...and off we go!" Dumbledore; Sorcerer's Stone. |
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Oct 27 2009, 01:22 PM
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#232
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Leaky's Resident Borg Queen  Posts: 12,411 Joined: 11:45am July 25, 2005 Location: in space, the final frontier . . . |
QUOTE(Twilightsfire @ Oct 26 2009, 04:16 PM) QUOTE(Seven of Nine @ Oct 26 2009, 02:52 PM) I read this yesterday and was thinking about it this morning when the news was talking about H1N1. Reality is that it costs money to make things (salaries, benefits, buildings, utilities, etc.). Those have to be paid somehow. If it's a private organization (meaning not the government), it could be profit of nonprofit, but the bottom line is that someone has to pay those expenses. If a nonprofit can't bring in enough to do that and a profit making company takes over the enterprise, that's the nature of the beast--unless the government steps in. I don't think pointing fingers at the for-profit companies is necessarily a fair or accurate assessment. RE: Polio. Polio was terrifying. I don't believe that FDR was going to let Pharms control that research. He wanted doctors in control (Not business) and he wanted long lasting results. (Not expensive ersatz doses that need to be taken every season... Like what happens currently.) So true that it was terrifying--it wasn't originally called Infantile Paralysis for nothing! I remember lining up at my elementary school with my family to get my sugar cube with the polio vaccine in it. It amazes me sometimes when I think about how far we've come with vaccines that people forget how very dreadful the original illnesses were and don't get their children vaccinated. My father was career Navy, and I lived in Asia for nearly 7 years as I was growing up. I received not just one smallpox vaccination, but three. The first one I received as did everyone in my generation (and the accompanying scar). The next two I had to receive yearly when we lived in the Philippines (along with a TB skin test every six months). The second and third smallpox vaccinations did not scar, because I was immune from my first one. I was dismayed when I read a year or two ago that my immunity will have waned, and I am probably no longer protected. Let's just hope that nothing happens to the smallpox that only exists now in labs. That would be scary enough for us old folks who thought we were immune, but it would be devastating since no one at all is vaccinated now. I'm not as bitter or cynical as you appear to be about the pharmaceutical companies, but then neither do I believe they are made up of white knights. The nature of polio and smallpox is very different from the seasonal flu because it's ever mutating. Several people have died in my state, but many, many others have survived--including my youngest son, and the children of three of my coworkers. I think the thing that is scaring people so much is the unknown factor of H1N1 because they believe it's a new strain. Fear of the unknown tends to bring out hysteria, including new vaccines. QUOTE(Twilightsfire @ Oct 26 2009, 04:16 PM) QUOTE(Seven of Nine @ Oct 26 2009, 02:52 PM) Government has it's place in the services it provides, but I must confess that I don't have a lot of confidence in the way it handles a lot of things. Like cultural arts, some things have to subsidized, but it's best left in the hands of the private sector, imo. The private sector for Cultural Arts? Obviously not a Broadway fan.  I am not a Broadway fan, or you aren't? 
This post has been edited by Seven of Nine: Oct 27 2009, 01:23 PM |
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Oct 27 2009, 06:53 PM
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#233
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Madam Malkins Model Posts: 2,072 Joined: 4:38pm June 27, 2005 |
Is culture something for elites or that which preserves and recreates one's evolving national identity? Yes, Transformers may be low brow, but I think if you studied it, you can find elements of American values and traditions in it. Likewise, a certain author who will remain nameless introduced us, not just to her unique ideas, but to her cultural influences (those that belong to her cohort and those that belong to her country of origin).
QUOTE(chloe squibbulus @ Oct 27 2009, 02:13 PM) QUOTE(Twilightsfire @ Oct 27 2009, 06:13 AM) Y'know, I'm probably coming off as something of a jerk here, but I've always had this distrust of the Pharmaceutical industry after I did a little research about the last time anyone came up for a long-lasting cure for any illness. Well, yeah. I can’t say that I think your comments sound very compassionate...to put it mildly. You go on about distrusting the government and acting as though its so inept and you resent the control the pharmaceutical companies have and the profits they make. You cite FDR as the hero because he didn’t let the pharmaceutical companies control the fight against polio, but you act as though there is some sort of government conspiracy to hide the costs of fighting the H1N1. So which is it? Is the government the big bad wolf or is it the pharmaceutical companies? A certain amount of healthy skepticism is probably a good thing. Government is only as good as the people we elect. Big pharma has done things in the past which makes one question their integrity. The new swine flu vacine is based on existing vacines so it is not a completely new drug. Usually, the first 5 years that a drug is out is when you find out which groups don't handle it as well as other groups. That it is a variant of an existing vacine reduces the risk somewhat. I necessarily does boil down to which one is more afraid of - the vacine or Swine Flu - and I am a bit more afraid of the latter. The thing is that Swine Flu is fairly new so no one has any natural immunity to it - and we are only starting to learn who is likely to get the worse type of symptoms flu symptoms during this pandemic. You heard about the 13 kid who got sick after attending a hockey tournament. They are now recommending that all kids between 6 months and 18 years get the shot. Now how do you talk a needle aversive 17 year old into getting the shot! Yes, Big Pharma has pulled some  in the past, but I would like you all to be around when the Scottish Book comes out. When the Black Plague swept Europe, no one, as far as I know, was debating whether or not to take a vacine cure - and the cures then were not as good as they are today.QUOTE The federal government has ordered enough H1N1 vaccine for every Canadian, but it's not possible to provide it to everyone all at once. Long lineups for the swine flu vaccine continued Tuesday outside clinics in Calgary and Edmonton. People were facing three-hour waits at a shopping centre in Edmonton and more than three hours at a mall clinic in southeast Calgary. Outside a clinic in Elmsdale, on the boundary of Hants and Halifax counties in Nova Scotia, the lineup snaked through the parking lot on Tuesday morning. "We want to get it over with," said Kathy Mauger, who waited a couple of hours with her three boys. "We don't want the kids to miss a lot of school." Ottawa Public Health also increased staffing after delivering 4,200 inoculations and then turning away people on opening day. ... Generally, provincial and territorial health officials have asked people in high-risk groups to seek out the H1N1 vaccine first, but said they would not check medical histories before offering the vaccine. http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/10/27/...ne-lineups.html We are also getting information that it is the kids that are most apt to be effected with severe symptoms (same link): QUOTE About 1,000 deaths in the United States have been attributed to swine flu. As of Oct. 22, the Public Health Agency of Canada reported 86 swine flu deaths. ... In the U.S., which Low said is about four weeks ahead of Ontario in entering the second wave of the pandemic, about half of hospitalized patients and one-quarter of the people dying of H1N1-related causes are under the age of 25. Many are teenagers, and about 70 per cent of them have some underlying medical condition such as asthma, muscular dystrophy or cerebral palsy. The recommendation (TV) is that if you have a child at home under the age of 6 months that you get the shot so that you don't get swine flu and pass it on to the little one. This post has been edited by Lucette: Oct 27 2009, 07:06 PM |
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Oct 27 2009, 10:43 PM
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#234
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Shopping the sales rack at Madam Malkins Posts: 2,534 Joined: 9:26am July 24, 2007 Location: I'm either in the Muggle Underground Forum or at the Hogwarts Express Roundhouse |
Anxious Crowds Meet Ad Hoc Swine Flu Police
QUOTE(Jennifer Steinahuer of the New York Times) The goal is to make sure that those Americans with the highest risk for contracting the virus — and experiencing the more dangerous complications that can ensue — get injected first. But the somewhat willy-nilly nature of the vaccine’s distribution in some areas, publicity surrounding President Obama’s declaration of a national emergency and the rather large population legitimately considered high risk have brought hundreds of thousands of people to vaccine distribution points. The supply of soylent green has been exhausted ... well in this case is running 60% behind production projections. This post has been edited by JohannMdlAmerica: Oct 27 2009, 10:44 PM -------------------- The last enemy to be destroyed is death-- First Corinthians, Chapter 15, Verse 26 The epitaph of James and Lily Potter |
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Oct 28 2009, 12:16 PM
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#235
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Sundae-Nut-Chopper at Florean Fortescue's Posts: 923 Joined: 10:41pm March 2, 2007 Location: Entering the Ministry of Magic |
Part of the reason I am an advocate for vaccination is that we are still in the middle of the H1N1/swine flu outbreak and we won’t know until its over how severe the outbreak will be. Presently in our state we have a 9.5% level of flu activity (almost all of which is H1N1) and a state epidemiology representative said that the highest level of outbreak we’ve had in recent years in our state was 9%. So we are over that level now and still seem to be on the upswing - there is no evidence that the disease activity has peaked. So saying that the H1N1 is ‘moderate’ is slightly premature. Its not as severe as the Spanish Flu outbreak in 1918 that killed 500,00 to 675,000 people in the USA alone, but it does seem to be more deadly than seasonal flu.
A study was done recently on blood samples that were taken before the H1N1 outbreak and it was found that only 4% of those born after 1980 have antibodies against an H1N1-like virus (might have some ability to mount an immune response); 34% of those born prior to 1950 have antibodies; and 57% of those born prior to 1940 have antibodies. This is pretty much how the disease rates are playing out in reverse - the young are getting sicker in higher numbers and the older groups are seeming generally to fare better. However, we have had 11 deaths in our state so far since the beginning of Sept. and 4 of them were in the elderly - which is a much higher rate than is being reported nationwide (nationwide approx. 10% of the deaths are in the elderly). Yet the elderly are not on the list of those recommended to receive the H1N1 vaccine. If you look at the 43% of those elderly who don’t seem to have antibodies against H1N1-like viruses (since only 57% of those born before 1940 had antibodies in the study), there are a fair amount of elderly people who seem to be a risk for infection and we know that the elderly in general don’t have as strong immune systems as the young. It makes me wonder if CDC might want to rethink the recommendation that the H1N1 vaccine isn’t needed for those over 65. QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 27 2009, 07:53 PM) A certain amount of healthy skepticism is probably a good thing. Government is only as good as the people we elect. Big pharma has done things in the past which makes one question their integrity. Yes. I think a healthy skepticism about big Pharma is good, but when the skepticism only serves the purpose of being ‘anti’ vaccine - because big Pharma produces the vaccine - that seems to me to be shortsighted. Not being vaccinated with the H1N1 vaccine isn’t sending any messages to the government or the pharmaceutical companies - because the government has already committed the money to the pharmaceutical companies for the vaccine. Refusing vaccination just becomes a personal protest with no punch, and leaves you more vulnerable to the virus. You might not get really sick, or on the other hand you might. Big Pharma and the government need checks and balances - always...but opposing everything they recommend or produce just because you distrust them becomes just plain silly beyond a point. One other risk factor that is being seen more and more in children and adults (that is not listed in the risk categories yet) is obesity. A high percentage of people who are hospitalized and/or die from the H1N1 flu are obese. Also, apparently American Indians are getting sicker than the general population in our state. They make up about 1.5% of our population and about 5% of those who are hospitalized or die are Am. Indian. I assume this trend is probably true throughout the USA and it seemed to be the case in Australia as well with the indigenous population, if I am remembering correctly what was being reported in Aug. For an overview of the national H1N1 disease level nationwide or in your own state, here is the CDC H1N1 website. This post has been edited by chloe squibbulus: Oct 29 2009, 09:11 AM -------------------- "I would like to say a few words. Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! And now before we go to bed, let us sing the school song! Everyone pick their favorite tune...and off we go!" Dumbledore; Sorcerer's Stone. |
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Oct 28 2009, 05:00 PM
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#236
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 159 Joined: 4:16pm February 22, 2009 |
QUOTE(chloe squibbulus @ Oct 27 2009, 10:13 AM) You go on about distrusting the government and acting as though its so inept and you resent the control the pharmaceutical companies have and the profits they make. You cite FDR as the hero because he didn't let the pharmaceutical companies control the fight against polio, but you act as though there is some sort of government conspiracy to hide the costs of fighting the H1N1. So which is it? Is the government the big bad wolf or is it the pharmaceutical companies? Or is everyone the big bad wolf except you? *sigh* History... Things change. Times change. And sometimes not for the better. A little over 30 years ago, PACs (political action committees)/ lobbying organizations were legitimized and there were less than a hundred then. Now there are over 4000, and they pay most of the money for political parties. We went from a people-oriented government to a business-oriented government. And a US senator has to keep that money coming in daily. Is he/she going to acquire that money from Mister/Miss Average American? No. In Washington, there are 8-10 lobbyists for every senator today. Lobbyists can simply write a check that has the senator conveniently forget my concerns. After all, he's not receiving any money from me. The Pharmaceutical Industry has already spent almost a half billion to kill Health Reform. QUOTE(chloe squibbulus @ Oct 27 2009, 10:13 AM) I fail to see why you so adamantly oppose vaccination for those who don't have your healthy level of resistance - or why you would applaud the fact that healthcare workers aren't immunized in very high numbers and could be spreading disease to the most vulnerable people. Maybe it's a form of social darwinism? Cull the herd? If you're not fit, well, why are you still around? Perhaps a careful reading of the link I had already provided would have revealed that many Healthcare workers as well as doctors simply don't believe that it has been tested enough. Ergo, they don't trust it. QUOTE(chloe squibbulus @ Oct 27 2009, 10:13 AM) You do have the choice to just not bother to be vaccinated. Why do you resent that others might want to recommend it or get the vaccine themselves? (Some people, like myself, actually prefer prevention. And prevention saves money in the long run ***novel concept***) I don't resent others for getting the shot. I am stating that there is a lot of crying that the sky is falling and I don't see it. QUOTE(Seven of Nine @ Oct 26 2009, 02:52 PM) I am not a Broadway fan, or you aren't? I used to be...But don't hold that against me. (I'm currently finishing the latest WoT book...  ) -------------------- All fighters are pig-headed some way or another: some part of them always thinks they know better than you about something. Truth is: even if they're wrong, even if that one thing is going to be the ruin of them, if you can beat that last bad out of them... they ain't fighters at all.  |
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Oct 28 2009, 05:45 PM
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#237
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Madam Malkins Model Posts: 2,072 Joined: 4:38pm June 27, 2005 |
QUOTE No. In Washington, there are 8-10 lobbyists for every senator today. Lobbyists can simply write a check that has the senator conveniently forget my concerns. After all, he's not receiving any money from me. The Pharmaceutical Industry has already spent almost a half billion to kill Health Reform. That is chicken feed. According to Joe Biden, the Private Insurance Industry spends seven million dollars a week lobbying government and putting out other anti-status quo propaganda. If they have that much money to blow week in and week out, it is a sign that their rates are too high. Maybe Washington should go the way of Manitoba and Quebec and ban union and corporate donations altogether. Agree with you that lobbyists are acting in ways that should be illegal - and are engaging in influence peddling. Here is one for you concerning what Big Pharma did to two whistle blowers: Biomedical conflicts of interest: a defence of the sequestration thesis—learning from the cases of Nancy Olivieri and David Healy http://meds.queensu.ca/medicine/histm/oili...aferJME2004.pdf QUOTE Big Pharma and the government need checks and balances - always...but opposing everything they recommend or produce just because you distrust them becomes just plain silly beyond a point. That is true too. One should look at what is being said instead of dismissing it outright because Person A said it and not Person B. QUOTE Presently in our state we have a 9.5% level of flu activity (almost all of which is H1N1) and a state epidemiology representative said that the highest level of outbreak we’ve had in recent years in our state was 9%. So we are over that level now and still seem to be on the upswing - there is no evidence that the disease activity has peaked. You've got a good point there. And the second wave of Swine flu hit Australia before the US which is a week or two ahead of Canada epidemic wise. So we are not just dealing with the US in isolation but how Swine Flu is doing elsewhere. I can understand how some think that Peter is crying wolf - with the WMD in Iraq and all the other things you have been put through in the last 8 years. However, this time I think Peter is telling the truth. QUOTE Perhaps a careful reading of the link I had already provided would have revealed that many Healthcare workers as well as doctors simply don't believe that it has been tested enough. Ergo, they don't trust it. Over here, many who were reluctant to take the vacine are now changing their minds - including doctors and nurses. You are right to be worried about the vacine - I am not going to argue against that. But you are down playing this swine flu a bit too much. The one thing about getting the vacine is that you, not only can't get swine flu after the first slightly over a week, but you can't pass it on to others. That said, how do you convince a 17 year old with a needle phobia to get his swine flu shot? |
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Oct 28 2009, 06:43 PM
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#238
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Sundae-Nut-Chopper at Florean Fortescue's Posts: 923 Joined: 10:41pm March 2, 2007 Location: Entering the Ministry of Magic |
QUOTE(Lucette @ Oct 28 2009, 06:45 PM) QUOTE Perhaps a careful reading of the link I had already provided would have revealed that many Healthcare workers as well as doctors simply don't believe that it has been tested enough. Ergo, they don't trust it. Over here, many who were reluctant to take the vacine are now changing their minds - including doctors and nurses. You are right to be worried about the vacine - I am not going to argue against that. But you are down playing this swine flu a bit too much. The one thing about getting the vacine is that you, not only can't get swine flu after the first slightly over a week, but you can't pass it on to others. That said, how do you convince a 17 year old with a needle phobia to get his swine flu shot? Lucette: Yeah. I don’t know how to convince a 17 year old either...maybe have him/her get the FluMist (nasal version)? Twilightsfire, actually, I did look at your link, but the story seemed distorted and confused. Under the photo it says: “Of the GPs surveyed, almost a third thought the swine flu vaccine had not been tested enough.” And in the article it says: “More than two thirds of those who will turn the jab down believe it has not been tested enough.” Somehow I have my doubts that “The Pulse,” which seems to be an entertainment magazine, has conducted an accurate scientific survey. The article doesn’t cite numbers or real sources....just uses sweeping generalizations...which I personally have trouble believing (maybe there were only 6 GPs polled? 2 or maybe 4 of those polled said... Who knows?). And the article contradicts its own statements or is very unclear about what was asked on the survey (also “Mailonline,” which I personally have never heard of before this, doesn’t seem like a terribly reliable news source). If my doctor told me that he wouldn’t be getting vaccinated because he didn’t think the vaccine had been tested enough, I would think about changing doctors. He would be simply demonstrating that he doesn’t know much about the vaccine (and to my mind ought to have read a little more). Lots of doctors and nurses refuse the seasonal flu vaccine every year - in about the same numbers as the number of doctors and nurses who are refusing the H1N1 vaccine (as I cited earlier...approx. 58% of healthcare workers don’t get vaccinated every year). And the argument for the vaccine not being tested enough isn’t an issue with the seasonal flu vaccine - its been around for years and years. Some people just don’t like to be vaccinated....even doctors and nurses. The H1N1 vaccine components are exactly the same as the components of the seasonal flu vaccine. The production is exactly the same...only the virus strain is different. But before you make an issue of that - remember that the flu strains in the vaccine change almost every year. There are three strains of flu virus in the vaccine every year, and they are constantly adding new strains to the same old ‘seasonal flu’ vaccine formula - that’s the way the flu vaccine is done. The H1N1 is the same old vaccine formula also - only with the H1N1 virus strain. There is no reason it should be a health risk (and it was tested just to satisfy those who might raise concerns). Its just media hype and paranoia that are driving the statements about it not being tested “enough”. What’s “enough”? The formula for the ‘seasonal flu vaccine’ for the southern hemisphere has been announced already, and the H1N1/‘swine flu’ virus strain is just one of the three strains of flu that will be included in the seasonal flu vaccine this next year (as will probably be the case with the northern hemisphere). So everyone who thinks they would just be the ‘government’s H1N1 guinea pigs’ for some perverse new health experiment conspiracy that’s designed to bump of the trusting dupes of the world......will have to refuse the regular old seasonal flu vaccine next year too....because the H1N1/swine flu virus will be in it. I dunno. I’m just going to risk death (or worse), and go ahead and get the vaccine. This post has been edited by chloe squibbulus: Oct 29 2009, 04:09 PM -------------------- "I would like to say a few words. Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak! And now before we go to bed, let us sing the school song! Everyone pick their favorite tune...and off we go!" Dumbledore; Sorcerer's Stone. |
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Oct 29 2009, 12:00 PM
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#239
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Madam Malkins Model Posts: 2,072 Joined: 4:38pm June 27, 2005 |
Kids!
One reason that the US can give fewer shots right away is that they decided to forgo the booster. If you use the booster, you can get away with a lower dosage of vacine. The booster might increase the risk of side-effects compared to the vacine without the booster: QUOTE The federal government has increased its supply of H1N1 vaccine for pregnant women by 200,000 doses, Health Minister Leona Aglukkaq said Monday. "Unadjuvanted vaccine is what we have recommended for pregnant women," Aglukkaq told a news conference in Ottawa, referring to the form of the vaccine that does not contain an additive, known as an adjuvant, that boosts the body's response to the vaccine. Aglukkaq said she has heard concerns from pregnant women about having to wait for the vaccine without a booster. http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/10/26/h1n1-vaccine.html |
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Oct 29 2009, 01:36 PM
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#240
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Leaky's Resident Borg Queen Posts: 12,411 Joined: 11:45am July 25, 2005 Location: in space, the final frontier . . . |
QUOTE(Twilightsfire @ Oct 28 2009, 04:00 PM) QUOTE(Seven of Nine @ Oct 26 2009, 02:52 PM) I am not a Broadway fan, or you aren't? I used to be...But don't hold that against me. (I'm currently finishing the latest WoT book... )I'm all for the cultural arts! What I was trying to say was sometimes certain services can't make it on their own in the private sector and need governmental subsidy. The making of the flu vaccine might be one of those as I believe the cultural arts can be. And about TGS . . . *plugs ears* I'm only on chapter 2--it's been a crazy week.
This post has been edited by Seven of Nine: Oct 29 2009, 01:37 PM |
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