The Ties That Bind, Old magic, blood and sacrifice |
 Mar 12 2007, 06:39 PM
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#11
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Being Eaten by the Pea Soup  Posts: 28 Joined: 2:47am March 5, 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia  |
My congratulations Prongs Patronus!
 Excellent essay, full of visual images and accurate descriptions. It's amazing to find that something I've been theorizing about has been put into paper by someone else. Sometimes even verbatim, like in "the Love from Lily Potter that lives in Harry’s blood will prove to be the undoing of the Dark Lord". I think that is a bit of JKR greatest magic, to be able to inspire us all! My favorite part was when you wrote: From Lily Potter, Harry received immunity from the touch of Voldemort, (Blood of the mother, willingly given.) From the failed Avada Kedavra Curse of his enemy, Voldemort, Harry was given a share of the Dark Lord’s powers, thereby marking The Boy Who Lived as his enemy’s equal. (Power of the enemy, forcibly taken.) We learn from the wandmaker Ollivander that the wands of both Harry and Voldemort share a core— a feather each from Fawkes, Dumbledore’s phoenix. (Core of feather, unknowingly given.) Congratulations once more and keep writing! --------------------  Talking about love is like dancing about architecture |
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Mar 13 2007, 10:13 AM
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#12
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Cauldron Bottom Measurer Posts: 120 Joined: 10:39am July 29, 2005 |
Prongs Patronus: What a wonderful thought provoking essay. You tie together a number of themes. I found your reference to the blood Dumbledore and Harry left on the cave door quite fascinating as it underlines the biblical quotation you begin with -- also, the blood on the door brings to mind the blood the Isrealites had to place on their doors to protect them from the tenth plague (death of the first born son). For those who placed the blood on the door, the Angel of Death passed over. That blood, of course, was the blood of the sacrifice of the Paschal lamb. There is a further reference to blood in the Hagaddah, in which, a prayer/psalm is read that contains the refrain "Through your blood you shall live." This makes me wonder whether, if Harry, as is thematically implied by your essay, must sacrifice himself willingly to defeat Voldemort, will also somehow live, via the willing shedding of his blood/Old Magic. I don't mean that he will have a literal resurrection as I think JK has said her themes are Christian, but not literal. Rather, what if, due to the lingering magic in Harry's blood, augmented, perhaps by Dumbledore's sacrifice and by some additional sacrifice of Harry's, the protection that caused Voldemort's AK to rebound the first time is re-energized, and Voldemort's attack once again rebounds -- only this time, deprived of his horcruxes, Voldemort is truly mortal, and dies?
I will also say that yours is one of the few essays that provide a convincing context for the possiblity that Snape did kill Dumbledore on his orders, although I am still not 100% convinced of that. I think the possibility remains open that Dumbledore knew he would die the moment he froze Harry and prevented Harry from coming to his defense. |
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Mar 16 2007, 03:00 AM
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#13
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Founders Groupie  Posts: 1,753 Joined: 8:52pm July 21, 2005 Location: Eating the Holy Grain and watching life return to the Forbidden Forest   |
Thank you, Gilwen and LadyMugwump, for your very kind words!
Gilwen, I believe that triad stands in opposition to Voldemort's rebirthing spell--and is crucial for Harry, as it marks him as Voldemort's equal. Much has been made of Harry's supposed magical liabilities when compared to Voldemort, but his strengths are all allied to the "power the Dark Lord knows not." Active Love, allied to Sacrifice and the Old Magic, used through the medium of blood, have propelled Harry past the achievements of his parents, who defied the Dark Lord thrice (I would argue that Lily, whose sacrifice made safe her son, defied him a fourth time...). Lady Mugwump, there is indeed a sense of the Paschal Lamb-- Active Love, the force which melted Harry's knife, is behind them both.  Actually, I think that is the crux of Dumbledore's sacrifice. I don't think it was about Draco or Snape--for Dumbledore, it has always been about Harry. I do not see that changing at the hour of the Headmaster's death. To mark someone as one's equal also imples a stalemate of sorts. I think, with his dying breath, Dumbledore attempted to break that stalemate and give Harry a protection that would ultimately redound against the Dark Lord. PP  -------------------- OPAST, Vault 717, Order of the Holy Grain
Boothies of the World, Unite! picture by fawkes28 Numquam Luna Lupinotuum |
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Mar 20 2007, 12:14 AM
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#14
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 8 Joined: 11:14pm March 19, 2007 |
This is my first time posting and I have some conspiracy theory questions to ask. Does anyone think that Dumbledore's death in Harry's presence may provide more magical protection during his final confrontation with LV? Does anyone think that Snape and Dumbledore's argument in HBP was because of an unbreakable vow that Snape made to Dumbledore that if it came down to it, Snape would kill Dumbledore to further the cause of the Order (Providing them valuable inside information about LV and the DE) OR to provide Harry one more defender in Book 7. Maybe Dumbledore knew that his time was running short anyways and that he may as well call the shots in providing himself as a sacrifice. Dumbledore was always saying that there are worse things than darkness and death and that LV was always fearful of both. Dumbledore would not have blinked at the idea of using his death to further the cause against LV. Curious what others out there think of these ideas.
This post has been edited by Jewelslady: Mar 20 2007, 12:17 AM -------------------- One thing vampire children have to be taught early on is, don't run with a wooden stake." Jack Handey
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Mar 20 2007, 10:28 AM
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#15
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Founders Groupie Posts: 1,753 Joined: 8:52pm July 21, 2005 Location: Eating the Holy Grain and watching life return to the Forbidden Forest |
First,
 jewelslady! My goodness! What a range of questions in your first post! I suppose the answer to the first one is yes, I do believe that Dumbledore moved to break the stalemate of the Prophecy. There is a curious symmetry between the events on the Tower and Lily Potter's sacrifice at Godric's Hollow that I believe will bear fruit in the final book. As for the Unbreakable Vow--there are many people who believe this, and those discussions can be found in any of the Snape threads currently on the Lounge. As for myself, I rank Unbreakable Vows right up there with Horcruxes, and do not believe that Dumbledore would ever have used one. It is contrary to his nature, I think. Yes, the Dark Lord is fearful of death--he sees dying as a weakness, and he loathes weakness. He also puts Love into that category, though; and it is Love that will defeat him in the end. I will say it again--though Dumbledore may have though that death was the next great adventure, that does not mean that he would have sought his own death, or have been glad when death arrived! Dumbledore enjoyed living, too, just as much as the rest of us. It has been my experience in life that, the closer to death one seems, the sweeter life becomes--and the harder to give up. A person does not become less valuable because they are closer to the Veil; life becomes more precious--not less, as one approaches the Otherworld. I think that, all things being equal, Dumbledore preferred to live rather than to die. Thanks for your questions! PP -------------------- OPAST, Vault 717, Order of the Holy Grain
Boothies of the World, Unite! picture by fawkes28 Numquam Luna Lupinotuum |
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Mar 23 2007, 01:26 AM
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#16
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 8 Joined: 11:14pm March 19, 2007 |
QUOTE(Prongs Patronus @ Mar 20 2007, 08:28 AM) [snapback]1146121[/snapback] First, jewelslady! My goodness! What a range of questions in your first post! I suppose the answer to the first one is yes, I do believe that Dumbledore moved to break the stalemate of the Prophecy. There is a curious symmetry between the events on the Tower and Lily Potter's sacrifice at Godric's Hollow that I believe will bear fruit in the final book. As for the Unbreakable Vow--there are many people who believe this, and those discussions can be found in any of the Snape threads currently on the Lounge. As for myself, I rank Unbreakable Vows right up there with Horcruxes, and do not believe that Dumbledore would ever have used one. It is contrary to his nature, I think. Yes, the Dark Lord is fearful of death--he sees dying as a weakness, and he loathes weakness. He also puts Love into that category, though; and it is Love that will defeat him in the end. I will say it again--though Dumbledore may have though that death was the next great adventure, that does not mean that he would have sought his own death, or have been glad when death arrived! Dumbledore enjoyed living, too, just as much as the rest of us. It has been my experience in life that, the closer to death one seems, the sweeter life becomes--and the harder to give up. A person does not become less valuable because they are closer to the Veil; life becomes more precious--not less, as one approaches the Otherworld. I think that, all things being equal, Dumbledore preferred to live rather than to die. Thanks for your questions! PP Thanks for your great answers PP: stag:! Very informative. Look forward to more happy posting!!  edited to fix quote tags This post has been edited by Aislinn: Mar 23 2007, 04:08 PM -------------------- One thing vampire children have to be taught early on is, don't run with a wooden stake." Jack Handey
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Jun 1 2007, 01:17 AM
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#17
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Professional Diagon Alley Window Shopper Posts: 61 Joined: 1:05pm January 29, 2005 |
You write a good article about blood but,you seem blind to Harry's blood on the fang when he distroyed the diary. I believe that it was his blood that killed the horcruxe and not the venom. This is what I think that JKR was hinting about when she spoke about what the director showed in the movie. He clearly showed blood on the fang.
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Jun 2 2007, 09:48 PM
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#18
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Founders Groupie Posts: 1,753 Joined: 8:52pm July 21, 2005 Location: Eating the Holy Grain and watching life return to the Forbidden Forest |
Yappa1, you make a very good point about the blood on the fang. I did not ignore it; there are other examples of blood mentioned in the canon which I did not use, either.
However, you do bring up an interesting point about Harry's blood being the cause of destruction. The basilisk fang would be the manner of death, in a legal sense; in your theory, it would be Harry's blood that was the actual cause of death. I see it as a matter of symmetry, myself--a matter of poetic justice. Slytherin's Heir done in by Slytherin's pet. It has a delicious irony to it, yes? However, I would not discount that Harry's blood was on the fang! I do think that Harry's blood is the downfall of Voldemort, whether it is the 16-year old version of him or the reanimated Dark Lord. Thanks for writing! PP -------------------- OPAST, Vault 717, Order of the Holy Grain
Boothies of the World, Unite! picture by fawkes28 Numquam Luna Lupinotuum |
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Jun 3 2007, 01:31 PM
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#19
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Total Eclipse of the Elf  Posts: 2,091 Joined: 4:47pm July 3, 2005 Location: Kansas City |
I'm very excited that later this afternoon we'll have a live chat discussion of this chapter of Prongs' over in the Corner Booth. The chat will run from 3-5pm EDT. I'll stop by later and edit this post to include a link to the transcript of the chat for those that are unable to attend.
Edit to add: Here's the transcript of the Corner Booth chat on Prong's wonderful chapter. This post has been edited by Poet: Jun 3 2007, 06:30 PM |
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Jul 20 2007, 10:16 AM
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#20
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Just Through the Brick Wall Posts: 5 Joined: 2:49am March 9, 2007 |
Just quickly:
What if Harry was the one who owed Pettigrew a life debt? And he paid it back by sparing pettigrews life? Because we dont know alot about what went on 'before'.....Also, I predict the silver hand will somehow be part of voldemorts downfall. His plans always backfire. And long live the fang/arm theory!! That was really random, sorry to interrupt your discussion. I just read below about the whole blood on the basilisk fang thing. I had never considered that before, and am not sure whether they drew attention to it in the book. The reason the basilisk fang is important, I think, is because it pierces Harry's arm in the same place that wormtail takes blood from to use in the potion that ressurrects voldemort. Fawkes also cries on that same spot. It seems too much of a coincidence that so much stuff happens to the same arm. (As a side note: I met someone who had a theory that the guy on one of the chocolate frog cards harry gets - maybe the first/second one he gets is this guy who researched the properties of snake/basilisk blood on immortality? [this was a while ago - I dont really remeber] theres a statue of him somewhere in the castle - its mentioned in the books [on the way to the owlery??] Again, SUCH a coincidence. And this whole thing explains Dumbledores look of triumph; he knows the blood, or whatever, was somehow altered, doing something to Voldemorts ressurrection potion. AND it means wormtail would have repaid his life debt to Harry (assuming it wasnt the other way around, and assuming he took the blood from that place conciously) Maybe Wormtail was a good guy all along? (well, I guess we'll find out in about 8 hours) Sorry, that was really long. |
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