Timeline confusion: When did James save Snape? |
 Nov 4 2009, 08:34 PM
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#1
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Newest Housekeeper at The Leaky Cauldron  Posts: 708 Joined: 11:46am June 23, 2005 Location: The Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Do Other Stuff Good Too   |
Hoping you all can help me out with this one:
I'm trying to figure out whether it was in their fifth or sixth year that James saved Snape from almost certain death when Snape went racing toward the Whomping Willow to catch Lupin's transformation. According to the hp lexicon and the harry potter wiki, James saved Snape at some point during their sixth year. However, in Deathly Hallows, Harry views Snape's memories chronologically. In one memory, Lily tells Snape that he should be more thankful to James for saving his life. Then, one memory later we see Snape's worst memory, after taking the O.W.L.s in their fifth year. That leads me to believe that James must have saved Snape during their fifth year, since that memory came before their O.W.L.s. I reread the scene in PoA where Lupin tells the trio about the fateful day, and he doesn't mention which year it was, so I'm not sure were the lexicon and wiki got 6th year from. I need to know the proper timeline because I'm writing a time travel fic and this will greatly affect the plot. Thanks for your help! -------------------- Am I the only one who thinks Deathly Hallows would be an awesome name for a band?  Avi stolen from Falulatonks |
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Nov 5 2009, 06:40 PM
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Gringotts Goblin Translator Posts: 1,236 Joined: 3:47pm November 27, 2006 Location: Dublin |
I don't think we're ever told exactly when it happened, we just have to guess really. As you say, Snape's memories seem to be chronological, in which case it happened some time before Snape's Worst Memory, which was at the end of their fifth year. It's also mentioned, I think by Snape at the end of POA (sorry don't have my books), that Sirius showed himself capable of murder at the age of 16. He says this in reference to the Whomping Willow incident. This could put it any time after the start of their fifth year to before the end of their sixth year, (Sirius, like all Hogwarts students, must have been 15 starting his fifth year and 16 starting his sixth, but we don't know when his birthday is, so he could have been 15 at the start of his fifth year and turned 16 the next day, which would mean the incident could have happened any time after that.
I dunno why the lexicon and the potterwiki would put it in their sixth year. The memories seemed pretty clearly chronological, and Sirius could have turned 16 any time during his fifth year, so I would say it almost certainly happened in their fifth year. |
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Nov 6 2009, 08:41 AM
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Doctor Filibuster's Junior Assistant Posts: 1,977 Joined: 5:11pm May 4, 2007 Location: Texas |
QUOTE(Wendall @ Nov 5 2009, 07:40 PM)  I dunno why the lexicon and the potterwiki would put it in their sixth year. Probably because of Snape's 16 year old comment, which we know is inconclusive. Harry was 16 from July before his 6th year until after 6th year and Hermione was 16 from September of her 5th year until September of her 6th year. So the 16-year old comment is no evidence at all unless we know when his birthday is, which we don't.So the best we have is the chronological order of the memories in the Prince's Tale. Although they appear to be in chronological order, we have discovered that one is not. In the memories Snape is shown finding Lily's letter well after the 7 Potters fiasco. Yet, Jo has told us that he enter Grimmauld Place before Moody set up the countercharms against him, which was obviously before his, Moody's, death. So to the best of our knowledge one memory is out of chronological order and it is suspect, because that could be a continuity problem that wasn't noticed until after publication. Nobody noticed the error until after Jo was asked when Snape entered Grimmauld Place and she answered without thinking about it. She needed some way for Snape to get through the spells, so she had him go in before they were set up. And this answer is what caused the chronological order problem. So having said all that, there is no proof for either timeline, but this is what I believe. Jo intended for the memories in the Prince's Tale to be chronological, but made one mistake (which actually might not have been a mistake: she may have intended for it to be in that order, but then realized Snape needed to get around the countercharms, so she changed it). Since I believe that she meant for them to be in chronological order, I believe that the incident where James saves Snape's life occurred in 5th year. -------------------- "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
-Albus Dumbledore |
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Nov 6 2009, 03:23 PM
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Knight Bus Driver in Training Posts: 600 Joined: 6:25am December 9, 2007 Location: Canada |
For me, there is no question James saved Snape before the SWM incident. In their fifth year, before they took their OWLs.
Look at how it is written in The Prince's Tale chapter. I will truncate that section for you but it says: "Lily and Snape were walking across the castle courtyard, evidently arguing. Harry hurried to catch up with them, to listen in. As he reached them, he realized how much taller they both were: a few years seemed to have passed since the Sorting. '... thought we were supposed to be friends?' Snape was saying. 'Best friends?' 'We are, Sev, but I don't like some of the people you're hanging around with!' ... 'What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?' demanded Snape. ... 'They don't use Dark Magic, though.' She dropped her voice. 'And you're being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there -' " (Pages 540-541, Raincoast) Ok, what does this conversation tell us? (I feel like Sherlock Holmes here. giggle, giggle) It tells us that at the time of the conversation, Lily and Severus were still friends, still considered themselves best friends. After the SWM incident in June of their fifth year, they were no longer such (at least Lily wasn't). On that very day of their DADA OWL exam the friendship ended. Therefore, the Whomping Willow incident occurred not only not in their sixth year, but before the SWM incident. It also tells us that the Whomping Willow incident occurred while Snape and Lily were still talking to each other civilly, confidentially even. Definitely before Snape uttered that unfortunate "Mudblood" comment. Definitely before their sixth year. Lexicon and Wiki are simply wrong in saying James saved Snape's life in sixth year. My guess is that that was written on Lexicon and Wiki before DH came out. A lot of us - including myself - in online fandom did think that it occurred after the SWM incident. In their sixth year. The reasoning for that is as follows: James was shown to be a real jerk and somewhat of a bully during the SWM scene in OoP. Lily Evans recognized him as such. Lily Evans - as we were told in OoP - starting going out with James Potter in their seventh year, when he matured somewhat and his head deflated somewhat. What did Lily see in James that had changed between fifth and seventh year? Well, many in fandom speculated that in their sixth year James saved Snape's life. And, seeing this new, much improved James Potter, Lily Evans decided to give him a chance. That was the theory running wild on online fandom between the publication of HBP and DH. I subscribed to it myself. However, in The Prince's Tale, Jo squashed that idea. As I showed above. She chose to have James do his good deed in their fifth year (before the parting of ways between Lily and Sev); not their sixth. So be it. (Personally, I like the idea of it happening in sixth better, but the author said it didn't, so it didn't. (shrug)) It is my opinion that the Lexicon and Wiki should update their info re this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, just a word on the age thing. Unfortunately, Jo made a little mistake in writing in both PoA and OoP that, when the Whomping Willow incident and the SWM incident took place, James, Remus and Snape were 15 years old. She has Sirius and Lupin and Harry say this. It is not true. We know when James, Lupin and Snape were born. And it was early enough in the year for all of them that, by June of their fifth year (May even), when the two incidents occurred, all three boys - and Lily, too - would have been 16 years old. (As has already been said, we do not know Sirius' birthday, so he could have been either 15 or 16.) Laura -------------------- |
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Nov 6 2009, 04:58 PM
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Doctor Filibuster's Junior Assistant Posts: 1,977 Joined: 5:11pm May 4, 2007 Location: Texas |
Excellent, Laura. Your reasoning that they were still friends is even more conclusive than the chronological order of the memories. I think that puts this question to rest. Good catch.
-------------------- "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."
-Albus Dumbledore |
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Nov 8 2009, 04:35 PM
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#6
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Flesh-Eating-Slug Catcher Posts: 165 Joined: 4:01am January 14, 2006 |
Since Snape and Lily’s friendship ended end of 5th year then this incident had to have taken place earlier that year. As far as Sirius age there are two possibilities either he was born after September first and thus was nearly 12 when he started Hogwarts and would have been 16 during most his 5th year rather like Hermione her birthday is September 19 so during her 5th year she turned 16 after 18 days of that school year. Another possibility is if it took place during the second part of that year (5th) and Sirius was born early in the year and thus had recently turned 16 when it happened.
This post has been edited by dobby_rocks: Nov 8 2009, 04:38 PM |
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Nov 8 2009, 06:23 PM
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#7
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Newest Housekeeper at The Leaky Cauldron Posts: 708 Joined: 11:46am June 23, 2005 Location: The Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Do Other Stuff Good Too |
You are all so amazing! Thank you for helping me figure this out.
-------------------- Am I the only one who thinks Deathly Hallows would be an awesome name for a band? Avi stolen from Falulatonks |
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