1984 is another of the books *in the same category* as TKAM. 1984 is an interesting book, I read it as a kid and it was my own choice to read it, and I loved the new words like *double plus* (I went through a phase where everything was double plus cool, double plus fragile ... ) but, I dont think I'd choose to read it again. However, I do have good memories of the book.
Alas I had the misfortune to also read Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies which I did not like at all. LOTF has permanently scarred me I think. It was because of this that I hadnt read TKAM until a few weeks ago, I'd avoided the recomended reading at school & every time I looked at TKAM is was put into the category with those three books. Which is why I'd never read it. (The movie which I've never seen gets put into the same category as Soylent Green, which I have seen)
I guess categorizing is good if they get it right but in my opinion they havent here. I love TKAM but severely dislike LOTF. I dont see the similarities. I was reading TKAM with fear & apprehension, waiting for the moment when one of the kids get his skull smashed open & his brains come spilling out (I *really* dont like LOTF) so how they can say, If you liked TKAM you'll love LOTF is a mystery to me. Yes there is man's inhumanity to man in TKAM but so there is in a lot of books but personally I would not put them in the same category as LOTF. TKAM deals with terrible situations but in a totally different way and setting than LOTF.

Like you I am puzzled by comparisons between TKAM, Lord of the Flies and Animal Farm. I read Animal farm as a fantasy and as a satirical comment on Stalinism in particular. LOTF is a British book, somewhat bleaker than the just as gruesome Coral Island (R.M.Ballantyne) that was on one of my reading lists. LOTF is definitely a contrast to Coral Island, a Victorian novel in style. I thought it was ironic that in the book of Lord of the Flies, the stranded boys were choristers, whereas the film portrays them as being from a military academy. The ship's boys of Coral Island remained friends and threats were external rather than the internal tribalism of LOTF. It is this difference in behaviour that is noted in the closing comment of the newly arrived Naval Officer that he would have thought that British boys would have behaved better.

It was stories like this, like Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, which have had a profound influence elsewhere, not just in USA, by the way. The trouble is that until I saw the film of Huckleberry Finn, I wasn't interested in that story which I'd tried to read several times due to reading lists. I thought initially it was just stories about a couple of boys skiving off work and school. We already had Ginger Meggs and Fatty Finn for that. There were other books by Mark Twain that I enjoyed more, such as the Prince and the Pauper.

Now this is strictly conjecture, but my guess is that Golding made his "boys" choristers for emphasis of the point that even within the most cultured of Society, the potential for savagery exists. Calling someone a "choir boy" implies an upstanding, spiritual and gentle person, along with a veiled question regarding their masculinity; since up until the late 19th century (when the practice was made illegal), Castrati were the "angelic" singers of a choir. My guess that the shift from choirboys to military cadets for the film version was a conscious effort to reduce the potentially homophobic implications, especially in light of the highly suggestive imagery that is present in the book.

The first time I tried to read Huckleberry Finn, I believe it was so tedious for me that I threw the book against the wall . It wasn't until I thoroughly enjoyed A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, and I was definitely more "initiated" into his style, that I was able to actually sit down and "get" Huckleberry Finn. I didn't know that HF has held a profound influence in other places, since it always seemed to me such an "American" book (as HP is a "British" book), yet I guess that really shouldn't surprise me. Stories like this give a "snapshot" view of the culture of the time, that as I think about it, they are great history lessons in themselves, (though from a "novel" perspective). These books aren't "flattering" to our historical egos, so perhaps that is why they find themselves on the challenged lists so often.

Significantly, the leading characters of LOTF are called Jack, Ralph (the hero) and Piggy. I rather missed the idea of castrati being connected with this book.

I see it only as a very indirect connection, and why I mentioned it strictly as conjecture.

To me, it seemed that Golding used choirboys to break stereotypical assumptions, to show that savagery is present in even the most "civilized" among us (ie. singing in a choir being a "most civilized" thing to do). I didn't mean that any of the characters in the story were castrati. I mentioned the castrati as they were the ultimate choirboys in their day - yet like Peter Pan, they never grew up - they never fully became men.

Am I the only one who thinks Arthur Weasley reminds them a wee bit of Atticus Finch? I can't put my finger on it but it's just something that struck me when re-reading GoF and OOTP.

"So it took an eight-year-old child to bring 'em to their senses, didn't it?" said Atticus. "That proves something - that a gang of wild animals can be stopped, simply because they're still human. Hmp, maybe we need a police force of children...you children last night made Walter Cunningham stand in my shoes for a minute. That was enough."

Atticus's eyes twinkled.

I understand where you are coming from (I think ) WWW. I can definitely see your point - but I'm wondering if it was the Cathedral upbringing the boys had, which left them susceptible to the superstitious manipulation employed by Jack? Piggy and Ralph (especially Piggy) in my understanding of the high school reading I made of this book, represented reason, it was Piggy's glasses that gave them the use and power of fire ... Jack was willing to kill for this power, but he didn't value the source or understand it.

In bringing this around to a comparison between the two books, while I was reading TKAM, I came upon this quote on page 157 of my paperback edition:

bold mine

In comparing LOTF and TKAM I think this point is significant. In LOTF, the boys never matured to adulthood - they never became men in their own right. There were the "Little 'Uns" and the "Big 'Uns" and for the "Big Ones" the power to influence went to their heads.

It is a human ability to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes, to suppose, to posit "what if", and since they hadn't matured to that level, created an "us vs them" survival code: "If you aren't with us, you are against us." Walter Cunningham was shamed into remembering when Atticus helped him , and another time when Jem helped his son, and so was able to realize quite clearly, that although he didn't agree with what Atticus was doing, he was still one of them.

Where LOTF might be comparable with TKAM is the treatment of children and what they are capable of doing, whether in defence of or in denial of ethical principles. Piggy and Ralph might compare well with Scout, Jem and Dill. But I can't agree with Atticus' idea about children making a good police force, however altruistic they might be or however animalistic the adults are behaving . His children were special, having been reared by himself, and having understood his values. Most other children of eight or ten would go along with whatever older children or adults would say, just like Jack's followers in LOTF.

And it is just this human ability to be able to put oneself in another's shoes which is so lacking in LOTF, especially in Jack, Roger and their cohorts, in marked contrast to the events of TKAM.

WaggaWaggaWerewolf:
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But I can't agree with Atticus' idea about children making a good police force, however altruistic they might be or however animalistic the adults are behaving . His children were special, having been reared by himself, and having understood his values. Most other children of eight or ten would go along with whatever older children or adults would say, just like Jack's followers in LOTF.
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