Madame Pince's House Elf
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Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005
Location: In HP Book Club 5, awaiting Deathly Hallow's release.
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QUOTE(Oryx @ Dec 17 2007, 02:01 AM)  QUOTE At the beginning of GOF, which starts after Harry's 14th birthday on 31st July 1994, we learn exactly when Tom Riddle murdered his father. It was exactly fifty years before the beginning of GOF, when Harry got the first and most momentous of his Voldemort dreams, and exactly fifty years before Voldemort in his wisdom decided to make an eighth horcrux out of the snake Nagini. That is to say, July-August 1944. My reference is GOF Brit ed. (2000) p. 7, on the first page of the book. Fifty years before the beginning of GOF has to be after fifty years before the events of COS. Which makes the murders take place between Riddle's 6th and 7th year, at the age of 17, in conflict with Dumbledore's 'in the summer of his sixteenth year' as well as Harry's observation that among the students meeting with Slughorn Riddle wasn't among the oldest. And then there are the questions raised by Riddle's conversation with Morfin - he appears not to know who 'that Muggle' Morfin is referring to, while in COS Riddle tells Dippet that his father was a Muggle. So did the murder of the Riddles happen before or after the opening of the Chamber?
I'd say after, no matter what, whether or not the fifty years prior to Harry's 1994 dream should have been 50 or 51 years. Because the year that Tom Riddle opened the Chamber of Secrets, trying to get out of returning to the orphanage, finished before the summer holidays and it was during the summer holidays he would have been able to go looking for his Uncle Morphin. Besides, the Diarycrux gives us hints, with his reference to his father as a 'filthy muggle', and his references to putting 'his sixteen year old self' into the diary. Not to mention that the diary opened for Harry at June 13th, the date in mid June when term would definitely be still in progress. Dippert was considering closing the school at that point, because of Moaning Myrtle's murder, and so sparked Tom's framing of Rubeus Hagrid. It may also have sparked the Riddle murders later that summer, as Tom by then shows he is adept at memory charms, which would be a must for him to put a memory into the diary.
Also, while Tom Riddle does not act as if he thought he killed Moaning Myrtle accidentally, that murder doesn't show the deliberation of actually going out of his way to find the victim, unlike the murder of his father where there was a definite prior motive. Moaning Myrtle's murder seems like the climax to a series of escalating events. And when Riddle frames Hagrid there was no prior use of memory charms as there would be later on, when he frames Morfin, altering his memory. Frank Bryce's memory of seeing Tom Riddle around the place at the time of the Riddle's murder says (p. 9 GOF) says 'had been a teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale'. So he might have already made one horcrux, if pallor is any indication of horcrux making, especially as that is not how he is described by Harry in Dippert's office.
I don't think that it alters Tom Riddle's behaviour either. Tom Riddle may have played dumb when talking to Morfin to try to get him to be specific about who 'that muggle' might be. Tom Riddle did not want to kill just any muggle; he needed to finger his muggle father, in particular. Tom did a mean line in manipulation as Harry noted when he saw Voldemort in action in the recovered memory.
QUOTE So you think he already hd a Horcrux when he asked Slughorn about them? Not impossible, though we get no hint from his appearance in that conversation (no change in the color of his eyes, as opposed to DiaryTom whose eyes flash red when he gets excited or angry).
No you wouldn't get any hint from his appearance in that conversation. That was an exercise in manipulating Horace Slughorn, with Tom Riddle taking care to control himself, what he said and how he acted. But at earliest that conversation would have been after the murder of the Riddles, and Morfin's (and Frank Bryce's) framing for it, since Tom Riddle was wearing the Peverell Ring. That would be in the autumn term of 1943 or 1944. For it still to have been in Tom Riddle's sixteenth year, it would have to precede Tom Riddle's New Year's Eve 17th birthday.
I think that he made at least one, the Diary, and maybe two by the time he asked Slughorn about horcruxes. Could he have worn the Peverell Ring if it was a horcrux already? Or did he do so, out of his father's murder, shortly after the conversation with Slughorn? I think rather than wanting to know how to make a horcrux, he wanted to know if he could make second ones and how many he could safely make, especially since Slughorn never told him what the spell was, even in the memory he gave Harry at Aragog's funeral, saying that he didn't know himself what it was.
We do know that Tom Riddle had made both horcruxes by the time he visited Hepzibah Smith. He didn't show any hint of red eyes there either, until he saw Hufflepuff's Cup and most distinctly, the Locket.
QUOTE QUOTE Wouldn't Tom Riddle have found out heaps by checking out the Room of Hidden Things? There were banned books there. Which should have made him wonder if anyone else might have had access to the room. Or he could have read about Horcruxes in the private libraries of his Slytherin friends. The topic of Horcruxes was banned at Hogwarts, not throughout Britain. (And Hermione is wrong to think Riddle found the books in the library before Dumbledore removed them - Slughorn told Riddle they were no longer there.)
Yes, Tom Riddle may have found out about horcruxes from checking out private libraries. Provided he was able to spend holidays away from Hogwarts at other people's places, and provided he was close enough to other people to be invited to do so. Note that to go elsewhere for holidays, to the Burrow or to 12 Grimmauld Place, Harry had to have Dumbledore's permission, and that the same would apply to Tom Riddle. If Tom Riddle had been able to spend holidays with friends, Lucius Malfoy, for example, would he have needed to see Dippert about the closure of the school and going back to the orphanage?
Hermione might not have been wrong. It depends on exactly when Dumbledore banned the tomes on horcruxes, whether it was before or after the opening of the Chamber of Secrets. My guess is after Moaning Myrtle's murder and Rubeus Hagrid's framing, when Dumbledore seems to have suspected Tom Riddle, and prior to the conversation with Slughorn. But then, Tom could still have found out about horcruxes if banned books were removed to the Room of Hidden Things as it seems they were. The question is, did Dumbledore, himself, fish out the horcrux books directly from the library or did he remove them from the Room of Hidden Things, himself? And why didn't Tom Riddle suspect that other people might have known about the room? Just because he never saw anyone else there doesn't mean that nobody else knew about it, after all.
By the way, is it possible to get diaries that go by financial year rather than by calendar year? If it was a diary for 1942 to 1943 that was for the financial year it would match the Hogwarts year and Chamber of Secrets events, including Nearly Headless Nick's deathday party, much better than a diary for the calendar year of either 1942 or 1943. And it would be more likely that Tom Riddle would have bought such a diary for himself in the holidays prior to going to Hogwarts, since calendars and new diaries usually start coming out about mid September - October at earliest.
This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Dec 16 2007, 05:06 PM
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Nov 22 2007, 06:26 AM
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