Tom Riddle and the Diarycrux |
 Dec 13 2007, 08:12 AM
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#21
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Gambol and Japes' Research Department  Posts: 1,387 Joined: 6:16pm June 18, 2007 Location: Gryffindor Quidditch Team tryouts    |
to answer waggawaggawerewolf's question, i think the reason the diary was chosen was simply because Tom Riddle did not have access to valuable things like hufflepuffs's cup and slytherins locket yet so he went for something his that he treasured (i dont know why he would tresure it tho) and later on he became more ambitious and greedy about his horcruxes.
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Dec 13 2007, 03:04 PM
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#22
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Madame Pince's House Elf  Posts: 4,607 Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005 Location: In HP Book Club 4, awaiting the HBP film's release |
QUOTE(tonksgirl @ Dec 14 2007, 12:12 AM)  to answer waggawaggawerewolf's question, i think the reason the diary was chosen was simply because Tom Riddle did not have access to valuable things like hufflepuffs's cup and slytherins locket yet so he went for something his that he treasured (i dont know why he would tresure it tho) and later on he became more ambitious and greedy about his horcruxes. I think he treasured the diary because it was the one thing he was able to buy for himself, or because for once he was actually given this diary, probably as a Christmas gift. It is the sort of low cost present that a company might donate to the orphans up the road at Christmas, especially the older ones, and technically he would have still been one of them. It seems that Tom Riddle put into the diary, by magical means, the tale of how he found the Chamber of Secrets, how he set the Basilisk onto other students and how Moaning Myrtle happened to die. And Tom Riddle made the diary a weapon that could be used by someone else at a future date. It was this aspect that Lucius tried to employ. Though I don't excuse Lucius, or see him as less culpable for his conduct, just because he didn't know about the horcrux. Basically, Tom Riddle wanted to stay at Hogwarts over the summer holidays for that year, instead of returning to the orphanage as usual. But Dippert wouldn't hear of doing such a thing. After that, the minute that Tom Riddle could do so, he marched himself off to murder his paternal family and blame his maternal uncle for the deed. --------------------  Check out the Beedle the Bard Book Club |
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Dec 14 2007, 05:08 PM
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#23
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Terrortours Travel Agent Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007 |
The question is when did Riddle get the diary. If it was a gift from the orphanage - did he find it under the Slytherin Christmas tree? Did he go back to the orphanage on Christmas? I'd think Riddle would be the type to choose to stay at Hogwarts for Christmas. If he bought it himself - and we know it was purchased in London - does this mean he bought it in August 1942, before coming to Hogwarts that academic year? If so he must have been planning to experiment with magical memories even before he found the opening of the Chamber. I find it less likely that he bought it after the events because it seems he did not want to go to London after that year (the whole motivation for framing Hagrid).
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Dec 15 2007, 10:24 AM
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#24
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Dumbledore's Personal Secretary Posts: 4,717 Joined: 10:28am December 31, 2006 Location: At a violin concert with my boss. |
Tom Riddle could have bought the diary before he went to Hogwarts of course. But he could also have been given the diary by someone. Many people gift diaries for a new year to their associates, friends, etc. and he could have come into possession of the diary directly or indirectly through one of his Slytherin friends - or shall we say admirers ? The reason why he valued the diary so much is probably what it contained rather than what it was. It was perhaps the idea of such a common and harmless thing having such a dangerous core that appealed to Riddle. It was a reflection of himself in a way. A humble origin - but with great ambition and power hidden within. After he turned it into a Horcrux, it became a proof or symbol of his Slytherin ancestry, which he prized very much, and was naturally proud and fond of.  --------------------  |
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Dec 15 2007, 02:31 PM
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#25
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Terrortours Travel Agent Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007 |
My interest in the circumstances under which Riddle got the diary has to do with trying to understand what he was planning to do and when he formed those plans. But I always get stuck with the conflicting information about when he killed his father.
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Dec 15 2007, 08:20 PM
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#26
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Gambol and Japes' Research Department  Posts: 1,396 Joined: 9:09am July 15, 2005 Location: behind one of the revolving doors |
I would wonder if the importance of the diary is if it were some first or original dark or extensive magic that he was able to do without necessarily being taught by someone.
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Dec 16 2007, 02:23 AM
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#27
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Madame Pince's House Elf Posts: 4,607 Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005 Location: In HP Book Club 4, awaiting the HBP film's release |
QUOTE(rowena r @ Dec 16 2007, 02:24 AM) Tom Riddle could have bought the diary before he went to Hogwarts of course. But he could also have been given the diary by someone. Many people gift diaries for a new year to their associates, friends, etc. and he could have come into possession of the diary directly or indirectly through one of his Slytherin friends - or shall we say admirers ? Whilst I agree that he could have been gifted the diary, I doubt it was through Slytherin friends. My guess is that the Stationer who stocked the diary decided to clear their stock by donating some of the diaries to Tom Riddle's orphanage, the cost of the donation being claimed against their tax return. I'm sure that the orphanage, which still had legal responsibility for him, especially during the summer months, would manage to pass this gift onto Tom Riddle at Hogwarts at the appropriate time. After all, that very muggle child, Petunia, still managed to send a letter to Dumbledore by ordinary post. And I am also struck by the reaction Harry had to receiving an easter egg in OotP, which suggests to me that the Harrycrux might remember Tom Riddle getting something of the sort as a gift against all expectations. After all, Harry had been receiving easter eggs from Mrs Weasley beforehand, most notably in GOF, when she sent Hermione a much smaller egg due to Rita Skeeter's articles. QUOTE The reason why he valued the diary so much is probably what it contained rather than what it was. It was perhaps the idea of such a common and harmless thing having such a dangerous core that appealed to Riddle. It was a reflection of himself in a way. A humble origin - but with great ambition and power hidden within. After he turned it into a Horcrux, it became a proof or symbol of his Slytherin ancestry, which he prized very much, and was naturally proud and fond of. Of course, and this is also canon. Moreover, the diary was a weapon, which allowed a correspondent to unleash the basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets. QUOTE(Oryx) But I always get stuck with the conflicting information about when he killed his father. Yes, I know that the information can be conflicting, depending on what you read online. According to the book, the Chamber of Secrets was opened exactly 50 years before Ginny wrote in the diary, in Harry's second year at Hogwarts, from 1992-early 1993. Tom Riddle had been made a prefect exactly 50 years beforehand, so must have been in 5th year. That would make him sixteen, since his birthday was December 31st. My source is COS Brit ed. (1998) pp 180-4. The date he saw Dippert and then framed Hagrid therefore was 'halfway through the month of June' in 1943. Don't forget that by the time Harry finds out this information he has passed the Christmas holidays in his second year. At the beginning of GOF, which starts after Harry's 14th birthday on 31st July 1994, we learn exactly when Tom Riddle murdered his father. It was exactly fifty years before the beginning of GOF, when Harry got the first and most momentous of his Voldemort dreams, and exactly fifty years before Voldemort in his wisdom decided to make an eighth horcrux out of the snake Nagini. That is to say, July-August 1944. My reference is GOF Brit ed. (2000) p. 7, on the first page of the book. Fifty years before the beginning of GOF has to be after fifty years before the events of COS. My guess that Voldemort, having learned that he couldn't stay at Hogwarts over the summer holidays stopped the Basilisk attacks and made the Diarycrux, allowing Rubeus Hagrid to take the blame. I even know of a reason why Tom Riddle would not want to return to the orphanage, since these institutions would not welcome him back after he had passed the minimum level of education necessary to earn a living. The following year he went into 6th year, and at the end of that year, knowing he was already 17 and that the orphanage most likely would not take him back, went off to murder his dad, knowing full well who was responsible for his predicament. That places the Slughorn memory at the beginning of Tom Riddle's last year, his NEWTs year. After which he went on to work for Borgin and Burkes. Harry wondered how Riddle got away with the Riddle murders, referring to the trouble that he got into over Dobby's stoppping his mail, not to mention the Dementor attacks the previous year. But until those book 6 memories Harry had no idea when Voldemort's birthday was, so can't calculate exactly when LV could do which at what time. By the time LV killed his Dad he was old enough not to be detected in any wrongdoing and also old enough to have his apparition licence. QUOTE(phoenix42) I would wonder if the importance of the diary is if it were some first or original dark or extensive magic that he was able to do without necessarily being taught by someone. Wouldn't Tom Riddle have found out heaps by checking out the Room of Hidden Things? There were banned books there. This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Dec 16 2007, 03:05 AM -------------------- Check out the Beedle the Bard Book Club |
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Dec 16 2007, 10:01 AM
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#28
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Terrortours Travel Agent Posts: 6,828 Joined: 12:34pm January 24, 2007 |
QUOTE At the beginning of GOF, which starts after Harry's 14th birthday on 31st July 1994, we learn exactly when Tom Riddle murdered his father. It was exactly fifty years before the beginning of GOF, when Harry got the first and most momentous of his Voldemort dreams, and exactly fifty years before Voldemort in his wisdom decided to make an eighth horcrux out of the snake Nagini. That is to say, July-August 1944. My reference is GOF Brit ed. (2000) p. 7, on the first page of the book. Fifty years before the beginning of GOF has to be after fifty years before the events of COS. Which makes the murders take place between Riddle's 6th and 7th year, at the age of 17, in conflict with Dumbledore's 'in the summer of his sixteenth year' as well as Harry's observation that among the students meeting with Slughorn Riddle wasn't among the oldest. And then there are the questions raised by Riddle's conversation with Morfin - he appears not to know who 'that Muggle' Morfin is referring to, while in COS Riddle tells Dippet that his father was a Muggle. So did the murder of the Riddles happen before or after the opening of the Chamber? QUOTE My guess that Voldemort, having learned that he couldn't stay at Hogwarts over the summer holidays stopped the Basilisk attacks and made the Diarycrux So you think he already hd a Horcrux when he asked Slughorn about them? Not impossible, though we get no hint from his appearance in that conversation (no change in the color of his eyes, as opposed to DiaryTom whose eyes flash red when he gets excited or angry). QUOTE Wouldn't Tom Riddle have found out heaps by checking out the Room of Hidden Things? There were banned books there. Which should have made him wonder if anyone else might have had access to the room. Or he could have read about Horcruxes in the private libraries of his Slytherin friends. The topic of Horcruxes was banned at Hogwarts, not throughout Britain. (And Hermione is wrong to think Riddle found the books in the library before Dumbledore removed them - Slughorn told Riddle they were no longer there.) |
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Dec 16 2007, 03:43 PM
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#29
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Madame Pince's House Elf Posts: 4,607 Joined: 5:46pm January 28, 2005 Location: In HP Book Club 4, awaiting the HBP film's release |
QUOTE(Oryx @ Dec 17 2007, 02:01 AM) QUOTE At the beginning of GOF, which starts after Harry's 14th birthday on 31st July 1994, we learn exactly when Tom Riddle murdered his father. It was exactly fifty years before the beginning of GOF, when Harry got the first and most momentous of his Voldemort dreams, and exactly fifty years before Voldemort in his wisdom decided to make an eighth horcrux out of the snake Nagini. That is to say, July-August 1944. My reference is GOF Brit ed. (2000) p. 7, on the first page of the book. Fifty years before the beginning of GOF has to be after fifty years before the events of COS. Which makes the murders take place between Riddle's 6th and 7th year, at the age of 17, in conflict with Dumbledore's 'in the summer of his sixteenth year' as well as Harry's observation that among the students meeting with Slughorn Riddle wasn't among the oldest. And then there are the questions raised by Riddle's conversation with Morfin - he appears not to know who 'that Muggle' Morfin is referring to, while in COS Riddle tells Dippet that his father was a Muggle. So did the murder of the Riddles happen before or after the opening of the Chamber? I'd say after, no matter what, whether or not the fifty years prior to Harry's 1994 dream should have been 50 or 51 years. Because the year that Tom Riddle opened the Chamber of Secrets, trying to get out of returning to the orphanage, finished before the summer holidays and it was during the summer holidays he would have been able to go looking for his Uncle Morphin. Besides, the Diarycrux gives us hints, with his reference to his father as a 'filthy muggle', and his references to putting 'his sixteen year old self' into the diary. Not to mention that the diary opened for Harry at June 13th, the date in mid June when term would definitely be still in progress. Dippert was considering closing the school at that point, because of Moaning Myrtle's murder, and so sparked Tom's framing of Rubeus Hagrid. It may also have sparked the Riddle murders later that summer, as Tom by then shows he is adept at memory charms, which would be a must for him to put a memory into the diary. Also, while Tom Riddle does not act as if he thought he killed Moaning Myrtle accidentally, that murder doesn't show the deliberation of actually going out of his way to find the victim, unlike the murder of his father where there was a definite prior motive. Moaning Myrtle's murder seems like the climax to a series of escalating events. And when Riddle frames Hagrid there was no prior use of memory charms as there would be later on, when he frames Morfin, altering his memory. Frank Bryce's memory of seeing Tom Riddle around the place at the time of the Riddle's murder says (p. 9 GOF) says 'had been a teenage boy, a stranger, dark-haired and pale'. So he might have already made one horcrux, if pallor is any indication of horcrux making, especially as that is not how he is described by Harry in Dippert's office. I don't think that it alters Tom Riddle's behaviour either. Tom Riddle may have played dumb when talking to Morfin to try to get him to be specific about who 'that muggle' might be. Tom Riddle did not want to kill just any muggle; he needed to finger his muggle father, in particular. Tom did a mean line in manipulation as Harry noted when he saw Voldemort in action in the recovered memory. QUOTE So you think he already hd a Horcrux when he asked Slughorn about them? Not impossible, though we get no hint from his appearance in that conversation (no change in the color of his eyes, as opposed to DiaryTom whose eyes flash red when he gets excited or angry). No you wouldn't get any hint from his appearance in that conversation. That was an exercise in manipulating Horace Slughorn, with Tom Riddle taking care to control himself, what he said and how he acted. But at earliest that conversation would have been after the murder of the Riddles, and Morfin's (and Frank Bryce's) framing for it, since Tom Riddle was wearing the Peverell Ring. That would be in the autumn term of 1943 or 1944. For it still to have been in Tom Riddle's sixteenth year, it would have to precede Tom Riddle's New Year's Eve 17th birthday. I think that he made at least one, the Diary, and maybe two by the time he asked Slughorn about horcruxes. Could he have worn the Peverell Ring if it was a horcrux already? Or did he do so, out of his father's murder, shortly after the conversation with Slughorn? I think rather than wanting to know how to make a horcrux, he wanted to know if he could make second ones and how many he could safely make, especially since Slughorn never told him what the spell was, even in the memory he gave Harry at Aragog's funeral, saying that he didn't know himself what it was. We do know that Tom Riddle had made both horcruxes by the time he visited Hepzibah Smith. He didn't show any hint of red eyes there either, until he saw Hufflepuff's Cup and most distinctly, the Locket. QUOTE QUOTE Wouldn't Tom Riddle have found out heaps by checking out the Room of Hidden Things? There were banned books there. Which should have made him wonder if anyone else might have had access to the room. Or he could have read about Horcruxes in the private libraries of his Slytherin friends. The topic of Horcruxes was banned at Hogwarts, not throughout Britain. (And Hermione is wrong to think Riddle found the books in the library before Dumbledore removed them - Slughorn told Riddle they were no longer there.) Yes, Tom Riddle may have found out about horcruxes from checking out private libraries. Provided he was able to spend holidays away from Hogwarts at other people's places, and provided he was close enough to other people to be invited to do so. Note that to go elsewhere for holidays, to the Burrow or to 12 Grimmauld Place, Harry had to have Dumbledore's permission, and that the same would apply to Tom Riddle. If Tom Riddle had been able to spend holidays with friends, Lucius Malfoy, for example, would he have needed to see Dippert about the closure of the school and going back to the orphanage? Hermione might not have been wrong. It depends on exactly when Dumbledore banned the tomes on horcruxes, whether it was before or after the opening of the Chamber of Secrets. My guess is after Moaning Myrtle's murder and Rubeus Hagrid's framing, when Dumbledore seems to have suspected Tom Riddle, and prior to the conversation with Slughorn. But then, Tom could still have found out about horcruxes if banned books were removed to the Room of Hidden Things as it seems they were. The question is, did Dumbledore, himself, fish out the horcrux books directly from the library or did he remove them from the Room of Hidden Things, himself? And why didn't Tom Riddle suspect that other people might have known about the room? Just because he never saw anyone else there doesn't mean that nobody else knew about it, after all. By the way, is it possible to get diaries that go by financial year rather than by calendar year? If it was a diary for 1942 to 1943 that was for the financial year it would match the Hogwarts year and Chamber of Secrets events, including Nearly Headless Nick's deathday party, much better than a diary for the calendar year of either 1942 or 1943. And it would be more likely that Tom Riddle would have bought such a diary for himself in the holidays prior to going to Hogwarts, since calendars and new diaries usually start coming out about mid September - October at earliest. This post has been edited by WaggaWaggaWerewolf: Dec 16 2007, 05:06 PM -------------------- Check out the Beedle the Bard Book Club |
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