Underage Magic in the Wizarding World, Just how did that trace work? |
 May 1 2008, 02:32 PM
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Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes Posts: 48 Joined: 4:24am April 28, 2008  |
Another burning question (yes I'm full of them and don't know which burns most): when Voldemort killed his father and grandparents, he was 16. So the ministry should have known that an underaged wizard, named Tom M. Riddle, performed the AK curse in the Riddles' mansion. How come they did not know???
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May 1 2008, 02:42 PM
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Exploding Snap Champion Posts: 1,741 Joined: 1:02pm August 11, 2005 Location: Hogwarts. |
The Ministry can detect magic that's performed but not the perpetrator. They knew that magic had been used in the Riddle Manor but not who did it & therefore accepted Morphin's word for it when he confessed.
Harry was blamed for Dobby's hover charm because he was the only known Wizard at Privet Drive. 
This post has been edited by ~Dumbledore's~Ghost¿~: May 1 2008, 02:43 PM -------------------- Born in July 1881 - Died in June 1997.
"I will only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me... Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." Albus Dumbledore¿ |
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May 1 2008, 02:43 PM
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Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic  Posts: 9,192 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK  |
QUOTE(cully @ May 1 2008, 07:32 PM)  Another burning question (yes I'm full of them and don't know which burns most): when Voldemort killed his father and grandparents, he was 16. So the ministry should have known that an underaged wizard, named Tom M. Riddle, performed the AK curse in the Riddles' mansion. How come they did not know??? I presume that Tom had found some way of blocking the Ministry detection, since it would rather ruin his attempt to frame Morfin.
--------------------  W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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May 1 2008, 03:56 PM
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Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes Posts: 48 Joined: 4:24am April 28, 2008 |
Roonwit, that may be a good explanation.
QUOTE(~Dumbledore's~Ghost¿~ @ May 1 2008, 09:42 PM) The Ministry can detect magic that's performed but not the perpetrator. They knew that magic had been used in the Riddle Manor but not who did it & therefore accepted Morphin's word for it when he confessed. Harry was blamed for Dobby's hover charm because he was the only known Wizard at Privet Drive. In book two they only detect underaged magic done in muggle places where underaged wizards live. Harry could have done magic at 4 Privet Drive after his 17th birthday. Arthur Weasley did in the 4th book and that was not detected. Hey, why was Arthur's magic not detected, while Dobby's was???? For some reason only known to her JKR changed the way the trace works. You are right about Dobby, but in the last book Harry is told not to use magic in the Weasleys' house till his 17th birthday because the ministry will know it is him and where he is. Despite Ginny's presence. If they could only detect underaged magic but not who did it, then Ginny would have got the blame. So in book two the underaged magic detection is impersonal, but in book seven it is personal. Did the ministry change it or did JKR hope we wouldn't notice the difference?  But what about Tom Riddle jr.? If the trace worked as in book two, the ministry would not have noticed the magic done by him in the muggle mansion. They would not have been alarmed until the muggles who investigated the deaths talked about the mystery to the newspapers and some wizards read those.  I'm confused now.
This post has been edited by cully: May 1 2008, 04:15 PM |
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May 1 2008, 03:57 PM
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Muffin Mistress  Posts: 2,187 Joined: 10:42pm March 8, 2008 Location: RG Cookie Factory - reciting: "Oven at 350 F is too warm to touch with bare hands" |
QUOTE(cully @ May 1 2008, 09:32 PM) Another burning question (yes I'm full of them and don't know which burns most): when Voldemort killed his father and grandparents, he was 16. So the ministry should have known that an underaged wizard, named Tom M. Riddle, performed the AK curse in the Riddles' mansion. How come they did not know??? QUOTE(~Dumbledore's~Ghost¿~ @ May 1 2008, 09:42 PM) The Ministry can detect magic that's performed but not the perpetrator. They knew that magic had been used in the Riddle Manor but not who did it & therefore accepted Morphin's word for it when he confessed. Harry was blamed for Dobby's hover charm because he was the only known Wizard at Privet Drive. I still don't get it! There is UNDERAGE magic detected on the premises and MoM accepts Morphin as the one performing the magic - without thinking about who the underaged was??? That still doesn't make sence! -------------------- |
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May 1 2008, 04:02 PM
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium  Posts: 6,834 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
QUOTE(The-T-Dane @ May 1 2008, 04:57 PM) I still don't get it! There is UNDERAGE magic detected on the premises and MoM accepts Morphin as the one performing the magic - without thinking about who the underaged was??? That still doesn't make sence! Don't forget that Morphin was a known perpetrator against Muggles; he had already spent time in Azkaban. So when he confessed, the MoM took it at face value. Let's say for a moment that the MoM questioned Morphin as to the underage wizard, in this case Tom; Tom erased Morphin's memories so there's no way he would have remembered and Tom was well gone by this time. --------------------  |
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May 1 2008, 04:04 PM
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Muffin Mistress Posts: 2,187 Joined: 10:42pm March 8, 2008 Location: RG Cookie Factory - reciting: "Oven at 350 F is too warm to touch with bare hands" |
QUOTE(lirene @ May 1 2008, 11:02 PM) QUOTE(The-T-Dane @ May 1 2008, 04:57 PM) I still don't get it! There is UNDERAGE magic detected on the premises and MoM accepts Morphin as the one performing the magic - without thinking about who the underaged was??? That still doesn't make sence! Don't forget that Morphin was a known perpetrator against Muggles; he had already spent time in Azkaban. So when he confessed, the MoM took it at face value. Let's say for a moment that the MoM questioned Morphin as to the underage wizard, in this case Tom; Tom erased Morphin's memories so there's no way he would have remembered and Tom was well gone by this time. But my point is: Was Morphin underaged at that time? Didn't anyone wonder about who the underaged was? -------------------- |
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May 1 2008, 04:28 PM
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Getting Fitted for New Dress Robes Posts: 48 Joined: 4:24am April 28, 2008 |
My point was: did they know there was underage magic?
According to the book two detection way, they either would not have known there had been magic performed until they somehow noticed the muggle police being mystified (see my post at the top of this page). Or they had put a general trace on the muggle area of the village because of Morphin's crimes. A general trace that only detects magic, not the age of the wizard. But according to book seven the underage magic trace is a personal trace that identifies the underage wizard who does magic and the place where he does it. By the way, I believe Morphin was an adult because he had spent time in Azkaban. This post has been edited by cully: May 1 2008, 04:32 PM |
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May 1 2008, 04:30 PM
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium Posts: 6,834 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
QUOTE(The-T-Dane @ May 1 2008, 05:04 PM) QUOTE(lirene @ May 1 2008, 11:02 PM) QUOTE(The-T-Dane @ May 1 2008, 04:57 PM) I still don't get it! There is UNDERAGE magic detected on the premises and MoM accepts Morphin as the one performing the magic - without thinking about who the underaged was??? That still doesn't make sence! Don't forget that Morphin was a known perpetrator against Muggles; he had already spent time in Azkaban. So when he confessed, the MoM took it at face value. Let's say for a moment that the MoM questioned Morphin as to the underage wizard, in this case Tom; Tom erased Morphin's memories so there's no way he would have remembered and Tom was well gone by this time. But my point is: Was Morphin underaged at that time? Didn't anyone wonder about who the underaged was? I don't believe Morfin was underage at the time. But here is something that might help answer your question. This is taken from HBP, p368: (Harry asks Dumbledore why the Ministry didn't detect underage magic: Harry says: QUOTE So, if you're underage and you do magic inside an adult witch or wizard's house, the Ministry won't know? Dumbledore replies: QUOTE You are quite right-they can detect magic, but not the perpetrator Then later: QUOTE They will certainly be unable to tell who performed the magic.. they rely on witch and wizard parents to enforce theoir offspring's obedience while within their walls The MoM can detect underage magic, but not the perpetrator; so for all intents and purposes, Morfin was to blame and again he gave a full confession. There was no need to look for anyone else. So in this case, the Gaunt home is a wizard home: even if they detect underage magic, it won't be suspicious at all. It wasn't necessary to look for someone else. So, underage Tom performed magic to wipe Morfin's memories in the Gaunt domicile; and he murdered the Riddles: again, Morfin's confession precluded the MoM looking for another perpetrator. This is different with Harry and the hover charm performed by Dobby. Harry lives in a Muggle domicile; so Dobby's charm was immediately detected; and it was performed in front of Muggles. I hope this helps .
This post has been edited by lirene: May 1 2008, 04:39 PM -------------------- |
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May 1 2008, 04:33 PM
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Personal Secretary to The Minister of Magic Posts: 9,192 Joined: 4:57am January 28, 2005 Location: near Muggleswick, UK |
QUOTE(cully @ May 1 2008, 08:56 PM) In book two they only detect underaged magic done in muggle places where underaged wizards live. Harry could have done magic at 4 Privet Drive after his 17th birthday. Arthur Weasley did in the 4th book and that was not detected. I am inclined to think they did detect Arthur's magic, but they either knew Arthur was going to be there (after all Arthur did arrange a temporary Floo connection so someone in the Ministry certainly knew), or the detection also detects the presence of adult witches or wizards (who they could distinguish because they wouldn't have the trace on them) and muggles. The muggle detection bit certainly seems likely as they knew Harry was with Dudley during the dementor incidents. However, I doubt it would have occurred to those devising the detection system to detect the presence of house elves.
Hey, why was Arthur's magic not detected, while Dobby's was???? -------------------- W.L.Y.J. We love you Jo |
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