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Underlying Themes and Dual Interpretation Part II, Continue the discussion!
momwitch
post Mar 17 2008, 01:35 PM
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At 51 pages, the last version of this thread was getting very large. Thanks to Maime the Hunter for creating such an active discussion!

Please continue the discussion and you can reference the prior thread, here.


This post has been edited by momwitch: Mar 17 2008, 01:36 PM


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Maime the Hunter
post Mar 18 2008, 12:28 AM
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Although Sirius and Lupin knew Lily and Snape were friends, I don't think they realized, as Jo says James realized, that Snape feelings for Lily had grown beyond friendship. Sirius hated Snape because his interest in the Dark Arts and he was always following them around. Lupin and Sirius are amused by Harry's thinking that his mother hated James, so they might have been aware of when Lily started to notice James. Of course if they knew about Snape hanging out trying to talk to Lily after he called her a Mudblood, they might have guessed he liked her, but as Lily never liked Snape more than a friend, they would dismissed it.

QUOTE
And so we have this underlying pattern of half-truths, concealment and chance discoveries in relation to Harry's parents (and other things), all of which are designed to lead the Hero to "the Truth" at the appropriate time.
But is the concealment of the "truth" designed so that at the appropriate time Harry and the readers have any more insight to Lily and James' relationship than we started out with?

We knew in the first book, because Voldemort tells us, that James was brave in the end and his mother didn't have to die. We knew they loved each other. We knew Snape and James hated each other. We know that James was a true friend to Sirius and Lupin and that he would spare the life of someone, even if he disliked him. We knew from the Pensieve that Lily would take up for someone and didn't stand for cruelty towards another. We hear some of what happened the night James and Lily were killed in POA.

The truth that is revealed helps Harry therefore the readers understand Snape's relationship with his mother, Snape's change of allegiance at the time his parents were killed, and Dumbledore's understanding of Snape. But at the end of the books there were still threads dedicated to "why did Lily marry James?" or variations of the subject.

We know Dumbledore kept the Invisibility Cloak:
QUOTE
"It was a Cloak the likes of which I had never seen, immensely old, perfect in every respect...and then your father died, and I had two Hallows at last, all to myself!"
Page 715 DH

But we don't know why, with so much at stake, James and Lily turned down Dumbledore's protection, and are left with Snape's explanation: James' arrogant trust in Sirius.

Then again, some of the proof of Lily's and James attraction to each other is evident in Lily's personality. When Snape first sees her, Lily is, according to Petunia, breaking her parents rules about using her gifts. And she's using a swing to fly--it appears Harry's love of flying comes from both parents.
I would say, there is enough to fill in the blanks as to what James and Lily were like as a team.

Continuing on with the theme of fathers: Consider Jo's comments or intent Sirius as a reckless Guy to choose for Godfather. She does not say, it was not the best time in anyone's life, but that Sirius was a reckless guy.

Before she said this, Sirius confession that he persuaded James and Lily to choose Peter, seemed just Sirius blaming himself for a mistake they all made. And as the novels go, I still see nothing to suggest that it was a mistake all three adults made. However, Jo's comment about Sirius was a reckless guy to choose, makes me wonder if Jo intended us to agree with Sirius. The choice of Peter was his mistake alone.
Or it could be Sirius is single, and would have had he not gone to Azkaban, remained single.
I recall when my children were young and custody was an issue, I could think of nothing more frightening than single fathers who were as competent as one expected a single mother to be. That may or may not be an factor in Jo's attitude towards Sirius.

At another time statement that Sirius wanted to be a friend to Harry and Harry needed a father was interesting as well, because I was not certain, given his position, how much more of a father Sirius could have been for Harry. If it were her intent to show that Sirius as a person was not ready to learn and accept that the responsibilities of a father are different than that of a friend, I didn't see that at all--at least in the books. The movies were a bit different.

In the novels the circumstances under which Sirius and Harry were brought together were posed to work against them. But nothing in Sirius' behavior suggests that in peace time he would not have made a decent father, but maybe not every defines a decent father in the same way. A decent father or parent is one who does the best he or she can. A good parent is one who is willing to make sacrifices and Sirius was posed to do that. A good parent is one who is prepared to say Do as I say, not as I did, and you will fare better, and Sirius was prepared to do that.

At thirteen Harry had long outgrown the need for bedtime stories and needing someone to tuck him in. He needed someone to help work out the difficulties of gown up values. With the exception of Kreacher, Sirius' values were intense but loyalty and honesty are good things to teach Harry. Harry needed someone to talk to and Sirius was there for him, to listen, to encourage him, as much as he could be. When Harry voiced concerns Sirius knew he could not solve, Sirius had the common sense to go to Dumbledore. I don't see Harry as needing more from Sirius than Sirius was ready to give him.


This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 18 2008, 10:55 AM
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Alkari
post Mar 18 2008, 02:51 AM
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QUOTE
But is the concealment of the "truth" designed so that at the appropriate time Harry and the readers have any more insight to Lily and James' relationship than we started out with?

Yes. Because during OotP, especially after the SWM scene, Harry suddenly has these terrible doubts about the relationship between his parents, and "how" they came to marry. He even imagines that James somehow 'forced' her! It's easy to laugh at those fears, but for Harry they were very real, because he didn't in fact have the necesary knowledge of his parents to deal with what he saw in SWM. Now, it is perfectly true that we don't know the exact circumstances of how / when Lily and James fell in love (other than it was in seventh year), but after DH we (and Harry) have a whole new perspective on Lily, her values, and the fact that she terminated a friendship on the basis of moral principles and a fundamental conflict of beliefs. We certainly don't learn everything about J/L in DH, but we don't need to. At the end of DH they are back in their rightful position as a loving couple and loving parents of Harry, and we appreciate Lily a whole lot more because of the glimpses we saw of her - the letter to Sirius, and the memories/ flashbacks from Snape and Voldemort.

That new understanding of his parents helps Harry in that journey into the Forest: he doesn't need to question them, or their love for him or each other, because he now knows the truth.

Alkari




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Oryx
post Mar 18 2008, 10:05 AM
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But you still get a large group within fandom who aren't at all clear about what there was about James that was likable and what Lily might have seen in him, or readers who see the two scenes of Lily and Severus in 5th year and conclude she never really liked him, she was just using him as a source of information on the wizarding world and once that was no longer necessary becasue she had new magical friends she was no longer his real friend (though she did hang out with him still). All those missing years get filled in very differently by different people.
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lirene
post Mar 18 2008, 10:11 AM
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QUOTE(Oryx)
But you still get a large group within fandom who aren't at all clear about what there was about James that was likable and what Lily might have seen in him, or readers who see the two scenes of Lily and Severus in 5th year and conclude she never really liked him, she was just using him as a source of information on the wizarding world and once that was no longer necessary becasue she had new magical friends she was no longer his real friend (though she did hang out with him still). All those missing years get filled in very differently by different people.

The story jumps from Lily thinking James is an arrogant toe rag, to someone she falls deeply in love with and marries. So, for me, this gap isn't easily explained. And I am one of those people that fills in the blanks according to what I believe could have happened.

I was not one to believe that Lily necessarily used Snape for information about the wizarding world; it always seemed to me that Snape liked bragging about his knowledge to her; she was a willing listener.


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momwitch
post Mar 18 2008, 10:55 AM
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I don't think that Lily was using Snape for his knowledge of the Wizarding World - they were in a relationship (that doesn't mean that it has to be a romantic one), and that involves a give and take. Snape gave her information about herself, and Lily validated his assessment of her by proving that she was indeed what he said she was. That is a very heady "place" to be in, and as we see in the entire Potter series, it is information that is amongst the most prized and sought after "possessions" - whether it be obtained by from a diviner, an instructor, a best friend, a traitiorous lackey or a gossip columnist. One of the lessons that I see is that you have to weigh for yourself the knowledge you have, a determine if it is enough to make a competent choice for your actions.

Who knows why Snape became a Deatheater...considering he was a mudblood himself. It was said here or in another thread before that people generally despise what they hate most about themselves. When Snape called Lily a mudblood, it was just as much directed towards himself, if not more so, than Lily. In a way, by becoming a Deatheater, he was trying to validate himself , because as we saw with his identification of Lily being a witch, that he needed external approval and recognition for being "right". He follows this pattern throughout the books: from his margin notes as The Half Blood Prince, which Harry validates as being superior to the textbook writer and Hermione (the best in the class) herself, to being at the right place at the right time to hear Trelawney's prophecy. He is almost uncanny in his ability to assess a situation and come to a correct conclusion, but lacks the confidence in himself to leave what best be left alone - he consistently tries to draw attention to himself for his "greatness", because he always lacked approval for simply being himself.

Lily, on the other hand, is open and willing to take another's assessment, but has the confidence not to take herself too seriously. Even though she is a witch, her abilities are always tempered by her sister's disapproval (born out of jealousy), and she has to adjust herself accordingly to maintain some sort of familial harmony. Snape, Voldemort and James don't have any sibling to temper their impulsive behavior (Lily is also the younger sister - who was brought up to mind her elder, as is common in many families), so what is initially recognized as being the "arrogant toe-rag" James, seems to be more of a corrolation for one who feels like they don't have to answer to anyone. Snape and Voldemort share the same "qualities", but since James had a close group of friends who became like brothers , it fostered a sibling relationship that eventually tempered him and allowed him to develop the empathy to put forth the needs of others before his own. This, is what I think turned Lily around to see the beauty in James, and also Severus' inability to see anything beyond himself and his need for validation.


This post has been edited by momwitch: Mar 18 2008, 11:02 AM


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lirene
post Mar 18 2008, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE(momwitch @ Mar 18 2008, 11:55 AM) *
Who knows why Snape became a Deatheater...considering he was a mudblood himself.

Snape is a half-blood: his mom Eileen Prince was a witch, and his father a muggle. That's why he gave himself the moniker Half Blood Prince. It's probably correct to assume that Snape despised the muggle part of himself.


This post has been edited by lirene: Mar 18 2008, 11:05 AM


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momwitch
post Mar 18 2008, 11:05 AM
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Hmmm...maybe I got the terms muddled? wink.gif I thought that mudblood meant mixed blood, and could apply to both non "Pureblood" and "Muggleborns"...or am I totally off with that?


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Oryx
post Mar 18 2008, 11:07 AM
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Exactly. His hesitation when he answered Lily's question about her being Muggle-born shows where the line of bigotry in the wizarding world lay - between those of any wizarding parentage and those with none. And it wasn't Snape's prejudice alone, it is a very common one in the wizarding world.

momwitch, in COS Ron says "Mudblood's a really foul name for someone who is Muggle-born - you know, non-magic parents."


This post has been edited by Oryx: Mar 18 2008, 11:09 AM
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lirene
post Mar 18 2008, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE(momwitch @ Mar 18 2008, 12:05 PM) *
Hmmm...maybe I got the terms muddled? wink.gif I thought that mudblood meant mixed blood, and could apply to both non "Pureblood" and "Muggleborns"...or am I totally off with that?

I apologize for calling you out on that biggrin.gif . I always thought that Mudblood was a derogatory word used purely for Muggle borns only; both parents Muggles. (I believe it was Hermione herself who explained this to Harry after Ron's self-slugging backfire jinx in Hagrid's hut in COS). I apologize if I am confusing the events from the movie biggrin.gif ).


This post has been edited by lirene: Mar 18 2008, 11:16 AM


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Maime the Hunter
post Mar 18 2008, 11:12 AM
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QUOTE
We certainly don't learn everything about J/L in DH, but we don't need to.
Ah, but as post DH fanfictions and discussions would suggest, what the book needed to be complete, and what fans wanted to see or understand are two very different things. biggrin.gif

This is not to say I don't agree with you, but as with the question as to whether Snape suffered from self-hatred due to his bloodline, certain aspects are not as clear to read between the line or take from inferences as Jo or some readers because of different experiences may think are evident in the book.

I thought Harry resolved the matter with his father before the end of OOP. It seemed that he put it in perspective and decided that although his father may not have been perfect in relationship to Severus Snape, James earned the respect he had by seventh year and grew beyond this fit of jealous, peevishness on this one day. James did not outgrow what ever Jo defines as arrogance. But, isn't it necessary to take a firm stand--that is to put your life on the line for a stand like at seventeen or eighteen joining the Order--to be a bit arrogant? One must have certainty in this instance that what he or she is fighting against or for is right.

Take away the fact that Mulciber is pond scum, (thank you Diane...it's a television reference); what right did Lily have to judge Snape's friends? Isn't that a bit of arrogance on her part? Lily and James were more alike than different. Love blinds Snape to this, but I think Harry was able to see this.

Because there are still question as to why Lily loved James, or did Snape like Voldemort, respond to his societies racism with shame in a part of his heritage we can still examine if reader inference and interpretation match the artist intent. Are some things--remember Jo's Wink/wink, it's a girl thing comment about Lily's feelings for James. Note Jo is explaining this very obvious hint of Lily's to a "woman".

QUOTE(lirene @ Mar 18 2008, 10:10 AM) *
I apologize for calling you out on that biggrin.gif . I always thought that Mudblood was a derogatory word used purely for Muggle borns only; both parents Muggles. (I believe it was Hermione herself who explained this to Harry after Ron's self-slugging backfire jinx in Hagrid's hut in COS). I apologize if I am confusing the events from the movie biggrin.gif ).


Mudbloods are Muggleborn. Halfblood could be consider a racist term also, as I'm certain a Muggleborn witch has the same amount of magical genes as well as Muggle genes as a Pureblood.
But Halfblood is rather like the term "black". When I was a young girl calling a Black person, "Black" could get you a bloody nose. Now what was the preferred term of the time--Negro--could start a fight. It just goes to show how absurd racist terminology is.


This post has been edited by Maime the Hunter: Mar 18 2008, 11:22 AM
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