Underlying Themes and Dual Interpretation Part II, Continue the discussion! |
 May 13 2008, 06:43 PM
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#491
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In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility  Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party  |
QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ May 8 2008, 03:41 PM)  QUOTE I just don't see how DD or LV could know about the power of the protection if it had never protected anyone from anything before. - Just because people know that if you break a Unbreakable Vow you will die, doesn't mean they know because some one died after breaking it. It is very likely that people who took such vows would have rather died than break their word, and because they were wizards they knew the magic would hold them to this. What you say about the UV is true, but I think the glaring distinction between these two forms of magic is that one was purposefully created (the UV) and the other is a result of inadvertent discovery (the Love Protection). The UV has to involve meaning and intent behind it's generation; you can't accidentally make a UV with someone. By knowing what magic you are conjuring, you are aware of it's primary, even if the said function doesn't ever get tested. The LP, OTOH, is magic that is not generated intentionally (at least from what we've seen in the books - I have already given plenty of reasons why this is likely the case everytime  ). The uses of the LP are mysterious in nature - they are ones that are clearly discovered inadvertently (i.e. you can't create ways of using this magic). DD himself - who is clearly the most learned wizard when it comes to the capabililties of the LP - is not 100% certain about the LP's capabilities: "And you knew I would survive?" "I guessed" (or something to that effect). As another example, Harry was the first person in history to survive an AK, so clearly no-one knew that LP could be used to do this.That's why I think it's unlikely - borderline impossible - that the primary function of the LP was discovered by an intentional use of it. This post has been edited by harrypottergeek2: May 13 2008, 06:44 PM -------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
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May 14 2008, 05:54 AM
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#492
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Doctor Filibuster's Junior Assistant Posts: 1,963 Joined: 8:57am March 12, 2005 Location: at Home or somewhere in between  |
Getting back to the concept of blood and sacrifice, when Dumbledore and Harry are in search of answers in "Voldemort's" Cave in Half-Blood Prince it is only through blood that the opening is revealed. I don't have the book on me currently, but I do think that Dumbledore says something like "primitive" when he realizes that blood is the key to opening that lock. It would indicate that Voldemort knew or thought he knew a bit about ancient rites and customs when it came to Magic, letting him make the conclusion that Harry was saved solely through Lily's self-sacrifice, and not through any merit of Harry's own...which was his biggest error in judgment.
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May 14 2008, 05:31 PM
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#493
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In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party |
QUOTE(momwitch @ May 14 2008, 06:54 AM) Getting back to the concept of blood and sacrifice, when Dumbledore and Harry are in search of answers in "Voldemort's" Cave in Half-Blood Prince it is only through blood that the opening is revealed. I don't have the book on me currently, but I do think that Dumbledore says something like "primitive" when he realizes that blood is the key to opening that lock. It would indicate that Voldemort knew or thought he knew a bit about ancient rites and customs when it came to Magic, letting him make the conclusion that Harry was saved solely through Lily's self-sacrifice, and not through any merit of Harry's own...which was his biggest error in judgment. Exactly. LV never understood the power of love in general ("if there is one thing that LV does not understand, it is love"), and certainly not when it came to the Love Protection. He only saw it as a human weakness, and when it came to the LP, he only saw it as a magical thing, not something fuelled by a powerful emotion. -------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
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May 14 2008, 06:08 PM
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#494
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Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
QUOTE The UV has to involve meaning and intent behind it's generation; you can't accidentally make a UV with someone. By knowing what magic you are conjuring, you are aware of it's primary, even if the said function doesn't ever get tested. Not all people who kill are sociapaths, and I imagine in the wizard world there were so called honorable wars, or other situations where a man or woman might offer his life in place of a child, spouse, or friend. The difference here is Voldemort also doesn't have a sense of honor, so he would not understand that "he" is expected to honor a sacrifice. QUOTE don't have the book on me currently, but I do think that Dumbledore says something like "primitive" when he realizes that blood is the key to opening that lock. It would indicate that Voldemort knew or thought he knew a bit about ancient rites and customs when it came to Magic, letting him make the conclusion that Harry was saved solely through Lily's self-sacrifice, I agree. There must have been certain magical conditions like the life debts that Voldemort understood but didn't think were powerful or concerned him because they involved virtues he never developed.
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May 14 2008, 06:50 PM
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#495
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium  Posts: 6,856 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet |
QUOTE(momwitch @ May 14 2008, 06:54 AM) Getting back to the concept of blood and sacrifice, when Dumbledore and Harry are in search of answers in "Voldemort's" Cave in Half-Blood Prince it is only through blood that the opening is revealed. I don't have the book on me currently, but I do think that Dumbledore says something like "primitive" when he realizes that blood is the key to opening that lock. It would indicate that Voldemort knew or thought he knew a bit about ancient rites and customs when it came to Magic, letting him make the conclusion that Harry was saved solely through Lily's self-sacrifice, and not through any merit of Harry's own...which was his biggest error in judgment. I really like how you worded this . Voldemor't using blood as a "rite of passage" if you will to enter the cave shows that Voldemort understands old, primitive magic; but only to a certain degree. Dumbledore on the other hand correctly comes to the conclusion that Harry survived Voldemort's AK because of a blood sacrifice; Lily's sacrifice; which enables him to seal the charm over the Dursleys, where Petunia, Lily's blood related sister resides. We know from canon that no one had ever survived an AK before; Dumbledore knowing the prophecy, certainly gave him an ace in the whole if you will as far as how Harry could have survived. I've proposed in another thread that although I cannot even for a moment pretend to understand how Dumbledore would have sealed the charm; I believe that, Dumbledore might have either used Harry's blood (and this is my own theory since there is a very conspicuous 24 hour gap missing), or Dumbledore might have used his own blood to seal the charm over the Dursleys; just like he used his own blood to enter the cave.I also agree with the consensus that Voldemort never understood or believed in love; as harrypottergeek2 stated; Voldemort thought love as a weak emotion, since, after all his father deserted him and Merope chose death over love. And I agree with momwitch's sentiments that Voldemort made a grave error in discounting Harry's own powers as a wizard and as a human being who had the capacity to love. --------------------  |
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May 14 2008, 06:59 PM
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#496
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In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party |
QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ May 14 2008, 07:08 PM) QUOTE The UV has to involve meaning and intent behind it's generation; you can't accidentally make a UV with someone. By knowing what magic you are conjuring, you are aware of it's primary, even if the said function doesn't ever get tested. Not all people who kill are sociapaths, and I imagine in the wizard world there were so called honorable wars, or other situations where a man or woman might offer his life in place of a child, spouse, or friend. The difference here is Voldemort also doesn't have a sense of honor, so he would not understand that "he" is expected to honor a sacrifice. You don't seem to provide any arguements that contradict the point I made in that quote. I am referring to a wizard intentionally generating a specific form of magic. When a wizard does this, they know exactly what the primary function of that form of magic is. Your arguments in the quote above have absolutely nothing to do with this notion. QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ May 14 2008, 07:08 PM) QUOTE don't have the book on me currently, but I do think that Dumbledore says something like "primitive" when he realizes that blood is the key to opening that lock. It would indicate that Voldemort knew or thought he knew a bit about ancient rites and customs when it came to Magic, letting him make the conclusion that Harry was saved solely through Lily's self-sacrifice, I agree. There must have been certain magical conditions like the life debts that Voldemort understood but didn't think were powerful or concerned him because they involved virtues he never developed.I see what you are saying here, but I don't think that LV thought that they weren't powerful, nor do I think he understood them. I think he was merely aware of these powers (at least in terms of their basic physical consequences), but completely misunderstood the source of the power (whether it was love, emotions in general, virtues, etc), which ultimately led to his downfall. The biggest hint of this that we are given is in PS, where Quirrell explains the Philosophy that LV lives by: "The is no good and evil. There is only power, and those too weak to seek it". This shows that LV sees magic as a force that's only influenced by skill, not by emotions or virtues as well. -------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
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May 16 2008, 12:49 PM
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#497
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Being Chosen by a Wand at Ollivander's Posts: 2,977 Joined: 12:37pm April 28, 2007 |
QUOTE I see what you are saying here, but I don't think that LV thought that they weren't powerful, nor do I think he understood them. If I recall what I said was: QUOTE There must have been certain magical conditions like the life debts that Voldemort understood but didn't think were powerful or concerned him because they involved virtues he never developed. Voldemort is a sociapath, or to be politically correct--he has Antisocial behavior disorder. He understood the difference between right or wrong, but he doesn't think those rules apply to him--it's the nature of the disorder. He understand that people love, but he doesn't entertain any emotion that makes him feel weak, humbled, afraid, or uncertain as real or useful to him. |
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May 16 2008, 02:29 PM
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#498
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In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party |
QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ May 16 2008, 01:49 PM) QUOTE I see what you are saying here, but I don't think that LV thought that they weren't powerful, nor do I think he understood them. If I recall what I said was: QUOTE There must have been certain magical conditions like the life debts that Voldemort understood but didn't think were powerful or concerned him because they involved virtues he never developed. I know, and I bolded/italicised your ideas that I thought were misleading, giving reasons why I thought they were misleading. If you think my line of reasoning is inaccurate, please explain why so that I can either understand what you really meant or further explain my own reasoning. QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ May 16 2008, 01:49 PM) Voldemort is a sociapath, or to be politically correct--he has Antisocial behavior disorder. He understood the difference between right or wrong, but he doesn't think those rules apply to him--it's the nature of the disorder. Bold mine: I disagree. He doesn't believe in good or evil (see the quote I referenced in my last post), so I don't see how he can understand the difference between right and wrong. These two contrasts are more or less the same, so if you don't understand one of them, you can't understand the other. QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ May 16 2008, 01:49 PM) He understand that people love, but he doesn't entertain any emotion that makes him feel weak, humbled, afraid, or uncertain as real or useful to him. Again, I disagree with this assessment - or at least the way that you worded it. He is aware that people love, but he doesn't understand how this complex emotion works (having never experienced it himself). This post has been edited by lirene: May 23 2008, 01:37 PM -------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
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May 16 2008, 05:03 PM
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#499
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Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 264 Joined: 12:22am July 24, 2007 Location: New Jersey |
QUOTE Bold mine: I disagree. He doesn't believe in good or evil (see the quote I referenced in my last post), so I don't see how he can understand the difference between right and wrong. These two contrasts are more or less the same, so if you don't understand one of them, you can't understand the other. I guess part of the issue here is what does it means to believe in good/evil. Most people understand social norms - codes of conduct about what is permitted and what is not permitted. What keeps most people from doing "bad" things is the fear of consequences and the knowledge that certain behaviors will result in social sanctions. People are enculturated - they come to believe certain codes of behavior because they are connected to a social group and they understand that some things are outside the pale of that social group. I think Riddle understands the norms of his society - what is permitted and not permitted ( what is defined as right or wrong for that society) but he has no sense that those norms apply to him. He has never been enculturated - he has no real sense of membership in a social group. He sees himself beyond such considerations. It is his sense of superiority which is at issue - he is above these petty norms, he perceives that these so called questions of good and evil are simply about the use of power. So in that sense he doesn't care about good or evil - he cares only about power. Since he never truly sees himself as a member of the wizarding world - since he is always the outsider in his mind - being cast beyond the pale of that community by breaking the social codes of conduct is of no concern to him - he sees everything in terms of power - he will control wizarding society and in this way be a member of that society. I would say then that both of yoou (Maime and Harrypottergeek) are both right - he knows what is right and wrong (normative) in the wizarding world - but he doesn't think those codes apply to him - he sees those codes as simply being means of control - ways to impose ones power on people. He certainly has no fear for his "soul" in the sense of one is damaged by doing that which is evil. And again this is because that while he knows what is defined as evil for the wizarding world - he sees such definitions only in terms of power and control not as issues that go to something more profound about human nature. Of course the irony about Riddle is that he was full of rage about his own rejection by his family and the society he was born to - yet instead of applying that rage to reforming the attitudes of the wizarding world towards birth status he goes the opposite way - and appies the same norms that destroyed his own chance at family life ( his father's distaste about witches and his mother's families distaste about muggles) to the extreme of pureblood fanaticism. |
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May 17 2008, 01:28 PM
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#500
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Stargazing on the Astronomy Tower Posts: 3,900 Joined: 8:04pm September 28, 2005 Location: Astronomy Tower  |
Time for a new thread for this topic found here.
Enjoy! Shard LL Moderator --------------------  "We need metaphors of magic and monsters in order to understand the human condition."-Stephen Donaldson "One of the greatest talents in the world is to never say two words when one will do." |
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