'E carried me away
To where a dooli lay,
An' a bullet come an' drilled the beggar clean.
'E put me safe inside,
An' just before 'e died,
"I 'ope you liked your drink", sez Gunga Din.
So I'll meet 'im later on
At the place where 'e is gone --
Where it's always double drill and no canteen;
'E'll be squattin' on the coals
Givin' drink to poor damned souls,
An' I'll get a swig in hell from Gunga Din!
Yes, Din! Din! Din!
You Lazarushian-leather Gunga Din!
Though I've belted you and flayed you,
By the livin' Gawd that made you,
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

Aunt Petunia and her family were there strictly for the contrast of nice boy/evil step family as you see in many fairy tales (Snow White, Cinderella, etc.)

It is difficult to make comparisons to Elf enslavement (and robots for that matter) to real life because of the nature of elfs and their enchantment. Unfortunately we are not really told much about how they got into that condition. (I do like the Gunga Din quote)

This personalizes the feelings of love and sacrifice. Certainly there are many muggle borns who have value - Hermione, Dean Thomas, Ted Tonks.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by this, but I was disappointed that nothing more was made out of this. Hermione got off scot free for doing this, and we never find out if the marks go away or if she is scarred for life. There are many things the Trio gets away with, but this is one of the worst examples.

Of course, in reality it is not uncommon for people to re-evaluate their position because of something very personal. The question is whether they generalize from the specific case, and whether this happens rather quickly (from 'I just realized this very attractive and decent person is a member of group X' to 'there is no justification to hate someone for being an X') or if it takes years and decades.

More often than not nice *girl*/evil stepfamily (though there are Cinderboy stories too). The orphan boys generally get families that are decent but of lower social standing than their biological one.

Is there any indication that redemption is offered to someone like Nott for instance, as there is no pretty Muggleborn to turn his head towrad decency, and we never know what he felt aobut Death Eater's abandoning his father?

There is nothing to indicate he ever changed his mind about Muggle-borns or Muggles until the end of his life.

Few Muggle abilities are thought of as worthy, except love, and love is powerless without magic.

Maime may I ask what race on planet earth even comes close to resembeling the Ewoks? They are unlike ANY race or culture of people I have seen.

As for the Jar Jar bit the character is played by a Jamacian, if he didn't want to misrepresent his peoople (cnsidering he's playing a Nabooing and not a Jamican...) then people should be asking HIM why he had Jar Jar talk that way.

I don't understand this either. Marietta's betrayal deserved what she got.

And I'm not sure how a young reader would misunderstand why slavery is wrong from the story of house elves. I don't follow that line of argument.

and I don't think he expressed hatred of Muggle-borns in his later years.

Snape is the high school loser who is bullied, teased and never gets the girl.

Alice Longbottom, David. The title of the thread was inspired by speculation that Alice, although she would have thrown herself between Voldemort's curse and Neville, could not have provided protection for Harry, because there was no Death Eater who found her attractive enough to move them to ask the Dark Lord to spare her life.

I didn't make them. And think I made it clear in the first paragraph of the introduction of this threat that I neither want or expect a morality tale from Jo or any other author. The general gist of the thread is not an accusation that Jo does these things, but examining certain criticism.

For some people, marring the face of a young girl is the issue. Not everyone lives in our society where facial scarring or mutilation is a crime. Facial scarring is a very controversal form of punishment that has come to attention of those working hard to insure basic human rights as well as civil rights for women world wide.

The line of the arguement is this: at the end of the battle Harry doesn't express concern for the health of his servant, and Kreacher is his slave by inheritance, but wonders if his servant who has acted as a leader in a battle could act as his servant and bring him a sandwich.

We would be shocked if he thought could Molly, who had just lost a son, could make him a pot of stew...after all she's just been in a battle and she's just lost a child, she's helping tend the wounded. It would be, unless she offered, inappropriate.

Who is helping to tend the elf wounded? I agree with you that in showing the reader that elf equality is not a battle that is easily won, this passage does well, as does the absence of any freed elfs later. Judging by our own society, shoiwng elves assimilated as equals in Wizard Society a mere 19 years later is asking a bit much, even of fantasy.
[...]
Many young and a not more than a few of old readers feel Harry should only offer Kreacher freedom if he (Kreacher) wants wants it. There seems to me some confusion between the evils of the institution of slavery and the honor of a life of service.

But because he fell in love, fortunately with The Good Girl, he is saved.

Good heavens! Such a strawman argument. I don't even follow this line of thinking. Who said Alice Longbottom wasn't attractive? It's only noted that she was round-faced, but both she and Frank were very popular. And I don't see why her throwing herself in front of Neville wouldn't have saved him if the circumstances were identical. And I'm not sure how providing protection for Harry figures into this; Lily didn't provide protection for Neville. And what do Snape's pleadings have to do with anything as they were useless in the end. This is a very curious argument.

Has JKR ever explained exactly what Lily did to save Harry? Was it simply the act of self-sacrifice or did she manage to perform a charm? Voldemort mentions her "invoking ancient magic" that he had overlooked.

Lily would have been completely unaware of why she was asked to step aside. And, although it is true that Snape's request did save Harry, it was not his desired outcome. Lily was murdered. It is just as possible that Wormtail asked her life be spared when he betrayed the Potters. It did seem to be James who made enemies, not Lily.

After the fall of occupied France, many women who had taken up with German soldiers had their heads shaved. And many collaborators went to great lengths to hide their sneakiness. If one is too squeamish about protecting one's side, one shouldn't be involved in war.

Many of us, inclluding myself, as you have, did addressed the obvious: something had to be done to stop Marietta.

Racism is not always expressed as hatred. Something as simple as saying Harry talks like a Muggle to illustrate Harry's ignorance or lack of subtly indicates Snape still thinks because Muggle are incapable of performing magic, they are incapable of understanding or appreciating it. And why should it take any Muggle born witch or wizard any longer to understand the Wizard world that it takes a wizard raised as Ron and Malfoy were--pretty much isolated from wizards not in their family or social class? They're all in school to learn. There is nothing to indicate that Dumbledore treated young Muggle-borns students like special needs students or felt they should be segregated from students raised in a Wizard household.

If he hadn't pleaded for Lily's life, Voldemort wouldn't have given her the choice to live. He would have just killed her and then killed Harry.

I don't know Harrydavid. I think Lily had placed herself between Harry and Voldemort from VM's arrival. I think she made her choice long before VM offered her an out.

I would have said he was damned. He betrayed Lily, albeit unwittingly. He did betray her. She died because of what he did. And having betrayed Voldemort in an attempt to undo his treachery, he's damned to being alone for the rest of his life. He's neither fish nor fowl. A bitter, torn and conflicted man, he must walk the line between Death Eater and Order member. He can never reveal his true story to anyone and he remains unsure of his feelings toward Harry even in the end. He is both saved and damned. And I don't see his fate as anything to admire.

The insulting part of this equation is assuming Alice L is unattractive or that there would be no reason possible to spare her life. That's just created a What if scenario to be mean. Time is linear. Of course things would be different if something was changed. But why would it be different should Alice had been asked to step aside?

And Hermione chose something that had very little chance of doing so. If it hadn't been't for a fortuitiously placed mirror Marietta would have said all she knew and the DA wouldn't have known until too late, and no memory modification by Kingsley would have helped. A better jinx would be something that made the traitor temporarily speechless, like Snape's Langlock. And if Hermione didn't find that one, she could have used the Protean Charm - the one she used for the coins - to give her warning at the time of betrayal, giving her a chance to cancel the meeting. Hermione's choice of jinx makes her appear as more interested in punishing the traitor than in actually saving her friends.

davidenglish, a Protean Charm connecting the parchment jinx to something of Hermione's, followed by a 'meeting cancelled' signal through the coins would have kept anyone from attending the meeting. Whatever it was that triggered Marietta's pimples would have triggered the alert on Hermione's end.

I quite like the fact that JKR writes these characters in so many shades of grey. Because though we might want an idealistic book for young readers, I think JKR does us more of a service in showing what people really can be like, flawed and conflicted and making choices, and showing what wide effects these personal choices have.

Recognizing that a muggle doesn't understand magic is accurate, not racist or elitist.

Winky’s fate may only be a side-illustration of the problems of slavery. As for asking the elves what they themselves want – as Hermione realises, most elves have so internalised the master/slave ideology that NOT serving a master would be the greatest shame. They are brainwashed.

Just like Hermione thought of house-elves in terms of Muggle slavery.

'Twas mercy brought me from my Pagan land,
Taught my benighted soul to understand
That there's a God, that there's a Saviour too:
Once I redemption neither sought nor knew.

snape finding lily the only muggle-born worthy etc.

Recall too that Marietta went to Umbridge.

Of course, we don't know if the pimples are indeed permanent--perhaps the right counter-jinx/-hex had not been found and/or applied, or maybe the jinx-er (Hermione) would have to undo herself.

I certainly think that Ted Tonks was a decent Muggle!

[ (momwitch - they do NOT know the contract is hexed. That is one of Cho's complaints later on.)

Rowling said they faded a little but always remained there. I don't think she saw it as an issue at all, which bothers me.

Louie: Did Marietta's pimply formation ever fade
J.K. Rowling: Eventually, but it left a few scars. I loathe a traitor!

Marietta's treasons though is not the question, nor is Hermione's options for that matter. It is method Jo choose to illustrate as fitting for a young girl who betrays her group that is unsettling.

And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Yep, and here's the quote from the webchat:It also gives Jo's reason for Hermione being so cruel. Jo loathes traitors. It always seemed strange to me that none of the Hogwarts teachers could undo a hex cast by a 14 year-old student. It sort of makes me wonder how hard they tried. I know Hermione is good, but the teachers are rather good at magic, you know.

I stand corrected, Tom, but the whole thing about being a part of DA was to learn real defenses against the Dark Arts. Honesty and integrity in keeping vows and pledges is probably one of the oldest and most ancient magics. If you can't trust your associates, there is no integrity within your organization, giving evil the opportunity to flourish.

I suppose you could argue that Hermione's cruelty toward potential sneaks is intentional although she is a 'good guy' (unlike Umbridge or the Dursleys). My point however is that though Marietta's scarring seems cruel, I doubt most readers will take it as an example or think that it's OK to scar the faces of those who betrayed them (even though there are real-life precedents).

It seems like the original question also did not take into account that it was most likely Bellatrix who performed the torture on Alice Longbottom.

Well, this is really something that is subjective and therefore it's more a problem for you, Maime, than for JKR. The hex is not sexist. Anyone who betrayed the group would have been branded.

The hex is not sexist. Anyone who betrayed the group would have been branded.

This means that Lily's act gained extra weight in magical terms not because of her and her choices but because of Snape and Voldemort and their choices.

The original question was about a hypothetical situation where Voldemort had chosen to kill Neville rather than Harry, and has little if anything to do with the eventual torture of the Longbottoms which wasn't related to the prophecy. Had Voldemort gone after the Longbottoms, without anybody in the equivalent of Snape's role, Alice could have acted the same as Lily, out of the same love, but there would have been no magical consequences, both Alice and Neville would be dead. This means that Lily's act gained extra weight in magical terms not because of her and her choices but because of Snape and Voldemort and their choices.

Can we all attempt to not make statements that sound personal. I am not the one who initially related the incident to the atrocious custom of facial mutilation. However, I think those who brought this up have a valid point simply because of what was done to Marietta and the reason. The reason given for facial mutilation in real world societies is often Betrayal of custom, culture, religion, or parents decree.

2) Marietta's facial scars and the definition of betrayal as it crosses cultural lines. Magic does make some thing possible which would not be tolerated in real life except as outright abuse. However, it difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to claim that facial mutilation in the real world is anything but a form of torture, but the lines are blurred in a magical world. But we are still left the image with a young woman made to bear the scars of her small group's verdict of betrayal. In real life this is no minor thing.

It is significant that Harry is also caused to multi late himself because of Umbridge's hex. Seeing someone branded on the face or body, no matter how strongly we feel that this person should be made to take responsibility for his or her actions should give us pause, and I applaud each and every reader, especially young reader who has expressed this concern at the method.

The fact remains it is a girl who is marked--and I can find no fault with those who find this particular type of "punishment" disturbing. Now do I think Jo intended when writing this that she thinks all traitors deserve facial branding?

But had she survived what would she think of his love: On one hand his affection for her is a life line. She gets to live. But, because the special circummstances only apply to her, she must watch her fellows drown.

Agreed. Harry must be grateful to Snape for loving his mother for his survival.

Then in the seventh book we are told Harry survived because Voldemort gave his mother an opportunity. The Dark Lord had this momentary flicker of mercy because Snape, who loved his mother, asked this of him. Lily's sacrifice is suddenly not that great a thing, because without Snape's love for her and Voldemort's momentary whim to please Snape, Lily couldn't have made her sacrifice count for anything. The love of the Death Eater is what gives the sacrifice of the mother it's power.

I'm a little skittish at the idea of saving the bad boy from evil because he fell in love with the good girl. He really didn't have to change anything about himself, even though in the end he does finally see beyond his personal loss. Snape is saved from the fate of the Death Eaters because he was fortunate enough to love the right woman.

Agreed. Harry must be grateful to Snape for loving his mother for his survival.

I think you also make a great many assumptions here too. About what is tolerated in society and what is considered appropriate punishment and what torture.

Breaking in to ask the name of the thread that initially addressed Hermione's curse of Marietta. Was it merged into one of the other Hermione Threads?

I wouldn't know. I've never seen such a thread. However, you brought it up as part of the original post of this thread and did so without reference to another thread.

You invite us to share your personal view and it is to that we respond.

I also don't see why there is any need to cheapen Lily's sacrifice by hoping she knew what would happen. She didn't know. She died out of a mother's love for her child.

And so I don't see a redeemed Snape.

I also don't see why there is any need to cheapen Lily's sacrifice by hoping she knew what would happen. She didn't know. She died out of a mother's love for her child. She refused to step aside and be party to the death of her son. That her plea for mercy and offer to take Harry's place should evoke a protective charm is a testament to mother love. And all that was needed for the charm was the will and the choice. It's irrelevant why Voldemort asked her to stand aside, all that was necessary was that he did.

And so I don't see a redeemed Snape.

The Prince's Tale paints Petunia as a jealous and spiteful child. Why should Snape like her?

don't understand this reading at all. Where in the story does it establish Tom Sr. as a jerk?

Nobody wasted their breath pretending to feel very sad about the Riddles, for they had been most unpopular. Elderly Mr. Mrs. Riddle had had been rich, snobbish, and rude, and their grown-up son, Tom had been, if anything , worse.

Again, this has an awful lot of your own embellishment. We see endless examples of wizards dressing poorly by muggle standards.

I'm not sure that Voldemort has anything approaching self-hatred.

"He's like Voldemort. Pure-blood mother, Muggle father..ashamed of his paretage, trying to make himself feared using the Dark atrs...

Yeah, Voldemort. In the second book, Chamber of Secrets, in fact he's exactly what I've said before. He takes what he perceives to be a defect in himself, in other words the non-purity of his blood, and he projects it onto others. It's like Hitler and the Arian ideal, to which he did not conform at all, himself. And so Voldemort is doing this also. He takes his own inferiority, and turns it back on other people and attempts to exterminate in them what he hates in himself.

Voldemort is evil long before he knows that he is a wizard. He tortures other children in the orphange and kills their pets. This has nothing to do with racism. I'm not sure that Voldemort has anything approaching self-hatred. He is the ultimate narcissist. He loves himself to the exclusion of everyone and everything else. You seem to want to blame the villian's decisions and actions on society and bad parenting. Yet, a main theme of the story is personal accountability, taking responsibility for one's choices. Voldemort is evil because he chooses to be so. Snape, albeit a conflicted and unlikable character, does'nt shake out the same way. He is seduced by the desire to be popular and powerful (Perhaps he will yet impress Lily?). However, he changes his path when he realizes the full evil that he is embarking upon. His whole life can be viewed as a mission of atonement.

I think we're talking about different issues. Of course disfiguration as a tool of coercion is horrible. Umbridge does this Harry and we are agahst.

But betrayal is also horrible. Hermione did not disfuge Marietta to force her to do anything. Hermione put a hex on a promise on an action--not a person. She didn't hold Marietta down and scracth the words in her face. The hex is magical and reacted to an emotion and action--this is something that is not possible in the real world, and because it is not possible for an action to have this kind of affect I don't think we can place what happens to Marietta in a real world sitatuion where someone has grabbed her and shaved her head, or cut off a limb or nose or scarred her face. It is still Marietta's own actions that ended up scaring her--something that is only possible in the HP universerse because Magic makes it possible for people to realize immediate consequences for certain actions.

I'm not convinced, Snape's appearance was intended as a comic moment. And how many of these Wizards we see dressing poorly or inappropriately dress by Muggle standards have, as does Snape, a Muggle father and lives in Muggle communities? Snape has a Muggle father, who must know how a Muggle boy should dress. He lives in a Muggle community, so there are Muggle stores other Muggles to model himself on as to not appear strange or weird to Muggles--starting with his Dad. Is there any indication that Seamus doesn't have proper Muggle clothing--his father didn't know his mother was a witch according to Seamus.

I also feel however that Snape's appearance in the Prince's Tale was done more for comedic effect rather than JK expressing some form of childhood angst between Snape and his Father.

Not to jump into the middle of the fray, and I'm hoping I'm not stepping on any toes but I kinda wanted to throw a few bones out.

Back in OOTP we see a portion of a not so pleasant memory of Snape's where he's huddled over crying, while his parents are having a row. This in my mind shows that the Prince household was not a happy place.

"Oh, yes, they're arguing,"

Wouldn't spy you, anyway," he added spitefully," you're a Muggle.
Though Petunia evidently did not understand the word, she could hardly mistake the tone.

He had already changed into his school robes, had perhaps taken the first ooporunity to take of his dreadful Muggle clothes.

I do wonder why Eileen stays, or if she loved Tobias.

Page 670. The description of Snape might have been placed in the book for comic affect, but Snape's action don't exactly seem comical.

I never saw it as comic but as an indication of parental neglect. Especially when considered together with his poor communication skills and the fly zapping scene. The Weasley children aren't dressed that way and they live on the outskirts of a Muggle community.

Rose Weasley also changed into robes before boarding the train and I don't think we are supposed to wonder if she has anything against Muggles.

He takes his own inferiority, and turns it back on other people and attempts to exterminate in them what he hates in himself.

"Oh, yes, they're arguing," said Snape. He picked u a fistful of leaves and began tearing them apart, apparently unaware of what he was doing. "But it won't be that long and I'll be gone."

So I disagree that there was a certain amount of parental neglect, because obviously Tobias or Eileen must have made sure that Snape knew to dress in muggle clothes before leaving the house.

His Black hair was overlong and his clothes were so mismatched that it looked deliberate: too short jeans, a shabby, overlarge coat that might have belonged to a grown man, and an odd smocklike shirt. Harry moved closer to the boy. Snape looked no more than nine or ten years old, sallow, small, stringy.

Harry wondered why did not take off the ridiculously large large coat, unless it was because he did not want to reveal the smock beneath it.

slight, black-haired like Snape, but with that indefinable air of having been well-cared for, even adored, that Snape so conspiciously lacked.

Perhaps Snape's father abused his mother b/c she was a witch and feared her magical abilities and this fueled his anti-muggle tendencies later in life.

Okay I just reread the Prince's Tale, just to make sure my response was canon, and a few things jump out. I made a mistake when I said Snape's clothing was a way to draw the two together, from the book I draw the impression that he was just doing his best to look like a muggle. So I disagree that there was a certain amount of parental neglect, because obviously Tobias or Eileen must have made sure that Snape knew to dress in muggle clothes before leaving the house. And it dosen't look like they just let him wander where he please, I think Snape was just looking for a reason to A.) see Lily, and B.) escape the fighting of his parents. Now as for my previous comment about Snape's clothing being a literary tool for JK, I still support this idea. In JK's books non-muggle-born wizards/witches dress in what they think are appropriate muggle attire. Even though to muggles it may look ridiculous, it still represents the wizard/witch's best efforts.

As for the Weasley kids, they don't have a need to dress in muggle clothes because they're not popping into town to chat up the local muggle-born. My memory of the early books are a bit sketchy but I believe the Weasley litter dresses in suitable wizard attire. Please correct this is I'm wrong. blush.gif

Or, its the tone of a shy, insecure boy who feels threatened by Petunia' obvious distaste for anything magical.

It's not right," said Petunia, but her eyes had followed the flower's flight to the ground and lingered upon it. "How do you do it?" she added, and there was definite longing in her voice.

That's not a very nice thing to say to somebody!"
She turned, nose in the air, and marched off toward her sister.

The sisters considered him, united in dissapproval, both holding on to the one of the swing poles as though it was the safe place in tag.

Lots of children come from poor households with bickering parents; I'm not sure that rises to the level of abuse that you suggest.

Either his family can't afford more acceptable clothes for him or buying acceptable clothes for their child is not a priority in the Snape household, or perhaps this is Eileen taking her issues with Tobias on the child - 'you are not going to tell me how to dress my boy'.

Wearing ridiculous clothes in attempt to look like Muggles would be a plausible explanation had Snape been a pureblood, not a literal half-blood. His father knows Muggle boys don't dress that way. Either his family can't afford more acceptable clothes for him or buying acceptable clothes for their child is not a priority in the Snape household, or perhaps this is Eileen taking her issues with Tobias on the child - 'you are not going to tell me how to dress my boy'.

his way I'm not overthinking his clothes, and getting the wrong impression.

So I choose to go along with the comedic thread running through the series as a reason behind his style choice.

the getups you saw on young people!

For discussion sakes and on a purely academic level: is the impression that the description of Snape's clothing just a personal choice, and you don't have to qualify your choice, or are there clues in the text or the context that the passage was intended to as comic relief?

Abuse or neglect are difficult things to prove from what we know of Snape's home life. What we do know is that Snape was poor. The house at Spinners End is in a poor part of town and its furnishings rather shabby.

It's comedic to see someone dressed incorrectly and is so obviously NOT "normal".

Snape is not seen with dress robes, so the comparison with Ron's clothing is not applicable.

I've got Bills' old robes, Charlie's old wand, and Percy's old rat."

Then when the train is almost at Hogwarts He and Ron took off their jackets and pulled on their long black robes. Ron's were a bit short fo him, you could sneakers underneath them.

But we cannot be certain of abuse or neglect;

Well that's also debatable, because as we know wizards can alter the interior space of a building so that it doesn't match the exterior space. (Weasley tent at the Qudditch World Cup) So it could be that Tobias only had enough money to buy a small house in the poorer section of town, and that Eileen expanded the insides for their purposes. Also buying a smaller house doesn't mean that you're not well off, they could be like the Weasleys trying to cut corners.

But what, if after reading these passage, this is interpretation or inference one gets? Can one state this observation as their interpretation, impression, or inference or are we to read fiction as Just the Facts, Mam?

And Belatrix's opinion of Spinners End does not speak upscale neighbourhood. And when she and Narcissa enter, we are told it's a small sitting room with rather shabby furniture.

a dirty river that wound between overgrown, rubbish-strewn banks. An immense chimmney, relic of a disused mill, reared up, shadowy and onminous. There was no sound apart form the whispred of the black water and no sign of life apart from a scrany fox that had slunk down the bank to nose hopefully at some old fish-and-chip- wrappers.

The place had an air of neglect, as though it was not usually inhabited.

Petunia is described as "shrieking" at Lily, "hands on hips" and "torn between curiosity and disapproval"

"Lily, Don't do it!" shrieked the elder of the two.

But the girl had let go of the swing at the very height of it's arc and flown into the air, quite literally flown.

Petunia stopped her swing by dragging the heels of her sandals on the ground, making a crunching, grinding sound, then lefapt up, hands on hips. (Older sister mode..)
"Mummy said you weren't allowed, Lily!"
"But I'm fine," said Lily, still giggling. "Tuney, look at this watch waht I can do."
Petunia glanced around. The Playground was deserted apart from themselves and , though the girls did not know, Snape. Lily had picked up a fallen flower for the bush behind which Snape lurked. Petunia advanced, evidently torn between curiosity and disapproval (Mummy said you were allowed, remember? Lily's a true Gryffindor, breaking rules. ) Lily waited ntil Petunia was near enough to have a clear view, then held out her palm. The flower sat there, opening and closing its petals, like some bizarre, many- lipped oyster.
"Stop it!" shriked Petunia.
It's not hurting you, " said Lily, but she closed her hadn on the blossom and thew it back to the gorund.
"It's not right," said Petunia, but her eyes had followed the flower's flight to the ground and lingered upon it. "How do you do it?" she added, and there was definite longin in her vocie.

She ridicules Snape for saying that Lily's a witch.

The background here is simply too sketchy to conclude that Snape has some motivating animosity towards his father.

I'd just like to point out that how ever much he may have hated his father and used the name Prince, he DID take back the Snape name.

I'd just like to point out that how ever much he may have hated his father and used the name Prince, he DID take back the Snape name.

Based on the scene I don't think Snape was abused as a child, because he doesn't show any bruises, and Lily doesn't bring it up, and I would imagine that if Snape had been abused JK would have included it into the story, as that would definately be a major aspect of Snape's character that we would be missing if she left it out.

I'm not certain he was legally allowed by the school to give it up the name in order to take the Snape name back. His letter would have arrived at Spinner's End addressed to Severus Snape, What ever Number, Spinner's End, Surrey., not Severus, Eileen Prince's Halfbood son The HalfBlood Prince was Severus' secret name. His private little joke. There is nothing to indicate that anyone knew Snape thought of himself as The HalfBlood Prince. Even Lily in the memories doesn't seem aware of this. Lupin never heard of the name/title and is amused that Harry would think there are wizard Princes, or that wizards would seek to call them self--except Voldemort and those knighted by the Muggle queen as I quess Sir Nicolas was--Lords or Princes. Voldemort was Tom Riddle at school, and Voldemort only to his future followers or his most intimate friends as he says.

find that harder to believe considering the amount of muggle prejudice that existed in the wizarding world at the time. I would imagine that it would be encouraged for half-bloods to drop their muggle surnames in favor of their wizarding ones. So I think it would have been entirely easy for Snape to drop his surname in favor of Prince.

Granger? Can you possibly be related to Hector Gagworth-Granger, who founded the Most Extraordinary Society of Potioneers?

Actually, the Mill Towns of England never recovered from the Great Depression. And they continued to decline after WWII because of India's emerging textile industry. And many mills closed in the late 1960s and early 1970s. So, one can pretty much say that Spinners End would have been a sad place to live even in 1970 or so. And Tobias Snape may not have had a job. Or his job may have been at risk.

Who would encourage this? Albus Dumbledore? Would such recommendation to change his name to Prince would have come in his Hogwart's letter? But as everyone knows him as Severus Snape, I'm not certain how could he possibly explain himself first year as Severus Prince, after McGonagall calls out: Severus Snape and he responds?

What I meant was that he could change it later in life, not while in Hogwarts. He was hanging out with DEs so they could have pressured him to leave behind the Snape name, or even other pure/half-blood wizards in the larger (outside of Hogwarts) community could have said a few words or two about his muggle surname.

I'd just like to point out that how ever much he may have hated his father and used the name Prince, he DID take back the Snape name.

You dare use my own spells against me, Potter/ It was I who invented them--I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so..no!"