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Underlying themes and dual interpretation, Conflicting intepretations in Harry Potter
Maime the Hunter
post Feb 1 2008, 03:16 PM
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Let me preface this discussion by saying that I do not consider Harry Potter a morality tale, and believe we will find ourselves continually disappointed if we expect Jo Rowling to come up with solutions to the world problems. And although I will fight with all my might to support anyone's right to discuss, their opinion, idealism, I also support and defend my and any other's posters right to disagree with those opinions within the unwritten and written rules of this site, common curtesy and public debate.

This thread is designed to discuss how the Harry Potter books, like other literary works, especially fiction, works to send out underlying messages that even the author unaware of. For example, there are dicussion in the LOTR fandom who feel certain passages in LOTR support ideals linked to Aryan purity. Many film critics were disturbed by Jar-Jar-Binks speech patterns, or even the Ewoks as primitive but cute and lovable edition that suggest a racist point of view of some cultures.

There are many themes in Harry Potter I possibly did not notice or didn't list to keep this opening post somewhat legible. However, I welcome any additions to these matters in this thread, including religious and philosophical. I am listing four that stand out for me.

Please feel free to add your own. The only thing I would ask of fellow posters is rather than make this a shipping/canon discussion of any sort, (except canon used to illustrate a particular theme) we try stick to literary themes found in Harry Potter and how they can be interpreted in positive/negative ways or the possibilities that could be exploited by certain political, religious, or philosophical factions. If any one would like to add the discussion the question as to whether or not seven fantasy books designed for young people can or will not have any influence on how young people regard real world institutions of events, I would consider that topical in this thread as well.

1. Snape finding Lily the only the Muggleborn person worthy of sacrifice and change. On a individual basis, this is a story of one man redemption of a sorts. And on a personal basis it works. But idealistically--that is the individual reaction to something like terrorism or national policy of genocide-- it can get a little troublesome.
Dumbledore is able to use Slughorn and Snape because they found Lily attractive and loved her. The three high profile Slytherins who do the right thing are Regulus, because Voldemort maltreated his servant, not because he disagreed with Voldemort's policy of genocide; Slughorn does not agree with Voldemort's policies, but he prefers hiding to fighting, and is only called upon to do the right thing--and this is after two students are nearly killed, (one in his presence) -- by Harry playing on his affection for Lily, and Snape only goes to Dumbledore to save the woman he loved.

There are many things not said here: Is the possibility of attraction the only path to redemption for those who find themselves on either side of a totalitarian crisis or struggle. Should: Slughorn's (I don't imagine anyone who met her wouldn't have liked her..Very brave..Very funny... only have referred to Lily or should it have embraced each and every Muggle born, half-blood, or pure-blood person victimized by the war?

Of course, one method of creating interest in the actions of fascist or totalitarian regime to disaffected outsiders is to focus on the loss of something that community would find valuable. However, would an disaffected public join the fight against injustice if the testimony came from someone ordinary in intellect, experience, or appearance? (A little note--I recall one of the photographer's in the first part of the hunger crisis in Ethiopia in the seventies, saying he used to black and white photos because the people, even starving, were so beautiful, that outsiders would be moved by the photographs as art, not as information.)

2) [iMarietta's facial scars and the definition of betrayal as it crosses cultural lines. [/i] Magic does make some thing possible which would not be tolerated in real life except as outright abuse. However, it difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to claim that facial mutilation in the real world is anything but a form of torture, but the lines are blurred in a magical world. But we are still left the image with a young woman made to bear the scars of her small group's verdict of betrayal. In real life this is no minor thing.

3 Kreacher and Dobby's fates. Harry sees the elves' after the battle. He saw Kreacher lead them against wizards and giants and dragons. When he thinks of Kreacher coming to him, it is to make him a sandwich, not as friend, but as a servant. It is not to give Kreacher his freedom and offer him a place in his household, as his service proves invaluable. I'm pretty certain Jo did not mean to imply that if the master is kind, one should not desire freedom, but what are readers to draw from this? I have no problem with the idea of service as a vocation, or the ancient tradition of viewing a Master as a teacher. But other than explaining what Regulus wanted to do, Harry does not serve as a teacher to Dobby or Kreacher. Dobby does not long for freedom but an end to abuse, and once again he is place into a situation when even the wages he demands are a token wage--not a living wage. He shows no desire to make a home or family of his own. Jo is English with a love for images found in the works of her own countrymen: We could read Dobby's death, or Regulus sacrifice as a reflection of Kipling sentiments :
QUOTE
'E carried me away
To where a dooli lay,
An' a bullet come an' drilled the beggar clean.
'E put me safe inside,
An' just before 'e died,
"I 'ope you liked your drink", sez Gunga Din.
So I'll meet 'im later on
At the place where 'e is gone --
Where it's always double drill and no canteen;
'E'll be squattin' on the coals
Givin' drink to poor damned souls,
An' I'll get a swig in hell from Gunga Din!
Yes, Din! Din! Din!
You Lazarushian-leather Gunga Din!
Though I've belted you and flayed you,
By the livin' Gawd that made you,
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!


http://quotations.about.com/cs/poemlyrics/a/Gunga_Din.htm


But this is a generation of young people for whom certain subjects like War World Two, the Holocaust, the division of the Middle East and the beginnings of the state of Israel, the human rights struggle before and after Second World War and slave narration are not a part of tradition history but delegated to occasions like Black History Month.

And in dealing with the Elves have to keep in mind HP is fantasy, therefore a fantasy representation of slavery, not an accurate one of the institution. Although in much science fiction and fantasy an alternate species or even man made species like robots is used to illustrate the evil of the institution of slavery (not service!), it is stressed that Elves are humanoid not humans, therefore in Jo's world may have no prior conception or history of enslavement or freedom--except Dobby.

However, because Jo's story is so tightly woven around Hermione's realization that slavery is wrong, that is it possible that the elves story could leave the younger reader, with a very different impression of why the Institution of slavery is considered an ethical wrong on a number of levels?

4) Although Squibs --because they are a part of the magical community-- have a chance to play a part in the struggle against evil, there is otherwise, not a decent Muggle or Slytherin in the seven novels. Few Muggle abilities are thought of as worthy, except love, and love is powerless without magic. For example Petunia's acceptance of Harry seals the bond of blood Dumbledore forged, rather than Petunia accepting Harry forging a magical bond of blood that already existed between her sister and herself without Dumbledore's interference.

Feel free to grab any of the subjects and discuss, or bring in one of your own. Please have fun.


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wondering
post Feb 5 2008, 05:20 PM
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Can we all attempt to not make statements that sound personal.

Maime: I understand but at the same time you are personalizing the story. You invite us to share your personal view and it is to that we respond. I don't read the text as you do and sometimes I don't understand your assumptions. I think that this is what Davidenglish is referencing.

Lily is in Snape's estimation "superior" to her sister, her mother, her father. Magic makes her superior. At the first meeting, Petunia taunts Snape. Perhaps that is why he dislikes her. And we really know nothing about how Snape feels about Lily's parents. The Prince's Tale paints Petunia as a jealous and spiteful child. Why should Snape like her?

because of the way Snape is dressed, (the description sounds as if his mother doesn't allow him to wear muggle clothes, perhaps even attend school with Muggles or play with them), it seems fair to consider whether Snape's attitude towards Muggles, reflects his mother's attitude toward Tobias: he's just the Muggle sperm donor she married to carry on the Prince line. Again, this has an awful lot of your own embellishment. We see endless examples of wizards dressing poorly by muggle standards. It is a comic device that runs through the series. And at the Quidditch World Cup match we see wizards in female clothing. Snape is hanging at a muggle playground so I'm not sure that he is as segregated as you suggest. We see so little of Eileen Prince that it is unfair to characterize her attitudes toward muggles this way.

Jo writes of Snape's and Voldemort's self-hatred almost as individual evil and attempts to justify or explain their self-hatred: their Muggle fathers were jerks. Therefore their self-hatred is the fault of: their Muggle fathers, their own feelings of powerlessness, rather than the racism that already existed in the society. I don't understand this reading at all. Where in the story does it establish Tom Sr. as a jerk? Merope enslaves Tom through a love potion. When she gives him his freedom, he runs for freedom. Does he even know that she is pregnant? Can we condemn him for not taking responsibility for a child conceived when Tom has no control over his mind or body? Merope commits an extreme violation here - how does that make Tom Sr. a jerk? While the one glimpse we have of Snape's father is less than flattering, we simply don't see enough here to pass judgement on him either.

Voldemort is evil long before he knows that he is a wizard. He tortures other children in the orphange and kills their pets. This has nothing to do with racism. I'm not sure that Voldemort has anything approaching self-hatred. He is the ultimate narcissist. He loves himself to the exclusion of everyone and everything else. You seem to want to blame the villian's decisions and actions on society and bad parenting. Yet, a main theme of the story is personal accountability, taking responsibility for one's choices. Voldemort is evil because he chooses to be so. Snape, albeit a conflicted and unlikable character, does'nt shake out the same way. He is seduced by the desire to be popular and powerful (Perhaps he will yet impress Lily?). However, he changes his path when he realizes the full evil that he is embarking upon. His whole life can be viewed as a mission of atonement.


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momwitch
post Feb 5 2008, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE(wondering @ Feb 5 2008, 11:20 PM) *
Voldemort is evil long before he knows that he is a wizard. He tortures other children in the orphange and kills their pets. This has nothing to do with racism. I'm not sure that Voldemort has anything approaching self-hatred. He is the ultimate narcissist. He loves himself to the exclusion of everyone and everything else. You seem to want to blame the villian's decisions and actions on society and bad parenting. Yet, a main theme of the story is personal accountability, taking responsibility for one's choices. Voldemort is evil because he chooses to be so. Snape, albeit a conflicted and unlikable character, does'nt shake out the same way. He is seduced by the desire to be popular and powerful (Perhaps he will yet impress Lily?). However, he changes his path when he realizes the full evil that he is embarking upon. His whole life can be viewed as a mission of atonement.
bold mine

But does Voldemort love himself? I would agree that he cannot see past his own perception, but he is utterly lacking in love, which makes him evil. He was conceived out of his mother's own selfish desire, but that desire was neither strong enough to save her, nor impart in him the kind of love that recognizes sacrifice and cultivates compassion, in even the most desperate circumstances. Perhaps, if his mother didn't need to sell the locket and it was given to him as a symbol of the love that she held for him, even in death, he would have been able to share and interact with the other children who seemed to know that they were loved, although they were now orphans.

Snape's parents didn't get along, but they were together, showing that there was at least a choice to stay, and for whatever reason, they were a unit. Seeing his parents' relationship would probably prompt Severus to seek a companion who was like him , so there wouldn't be the misunderstandings that can happen when people from "different worlds" realize they aren't compatible with each other. Lily was magical but came from a muggle family, and that wonder of new discovery is intoxicating for the person who first recognizes another's potential...Snape claimed Lily as his own, and it seem he wanted to mold her into the perfect personification of his dream girl. He needed someone who would understand the inadequacies he felt as a magical living in a muggle world, but shared his own abilities, and Lily magically seemed to appear as an answer to his deeply guarded wishes.


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Posts in this topic
- Maime the Hunter   Underlying themes and dual interpretation   Feb 1 2008, 03:16 PM
- - Bombadillo   1. Snape finding Lily the only Muggleborn person w...   Feb 1 2008, 03:58 PM
|- - davidenglish   Perhaps I'm just slow this morning, but who is...   Feb 2 2008, 03:26 PM
- - Oryx   On Slytherins: For several months before DH came o...   Feb 1 2008, 04:12 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEIt is difficult to make comparisons to Elf en...   Feb 1 2008, 04:51 PM
- - Bombadillo   QUOTEMore often than not nice *girl*/evil stepfami...   Feb 1 2008, 05:02 PM
- - Oryx   QUOTEIs there any indication that redemption is of...   Feb 1 2008, 05:07 PM
- - wondering   Yes, that is the question Snape's story raises...   Feb 1 2008, 05:53 PM
- - Oryx   QUOTEFew Muggle abilities are thought of as worthy...   Feb 2 2008, 01:55 PM
- - Shard   Maime may I ask what race on planet earth even com...   Feb 2 2008, 07:38 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   Alice Longbottom, David. The title of the thread ...   Feb 3 2008, 03:51 PM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Feb 3 2008, 09:5...   Feb 3 2008, 06:00 PM
|- - harrydavid   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 3 2008, 07:00 PM...   Feb 3 2008, 11:15 PM
- - wondering   If he hadn't pleaded for Lily's life, Vold...   Feb 4 2008, 05:41 AM
- - davidenglish   Well, I can see that, harrydavid, if the offer to ...   Feb 4 2008, 07:55 AM
- - wondering   Davidenglish: I assume it was Snape that asked tha...   Feb 4 2008, 08:25 AM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(wondering @ Feb 4 2008, 02:25 PM) H...   Feb 4 2008, 08:30 AM
- - momwitch   Although they were all members of The Order of the...   Feb 4 2008, 08:31 AM
- - Tom Scribble   1.snape finding lily the only muggle-born worthy e...   Feb 4 2008, 10:04 AM
- - Oryx   To Maime the hunter: QUOTEMany of us, inclluding m...   Feb 4 2008, 10:58 AM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(Oryx @ Feb 4 2008, 03:58 PM) And He...   Feb 4 2008, 12:15 PM
- - Oryx   davidenglish, a Protean Charm connecting the parch...   Feb 4 2008, 01:14 PM
|- - Shard   QUOTE(Oryx @ Feb 4 2008, 01:14 PM) davide...   Feb 4 2008, 02:04 PM
- - momwitch   When it comes to Marietta, I don't know. Havi...   Feb 4 2008, 01:58 PM
- - Tom Scribble   Oryx, I think the whole point of the hex was punis...   Feb 4 2008, 02:04 PM
|- - momwitch   QUOTE(Tom Scribble @ Feb 4 2008, 07:04 PM...   Feb 4 2008, 03:33 PM
- - Oryx   But warning the DA would have been more effective ...   Feb 4 2008, 02:20 PM
- - StepInTime   Great questions, Maime, and so much to think about...   Feb 4 2008, 02:29 PM
- - wondering   Yes, I too am up in the air regarding Marietta...   Feb 4 2008, 02:59 PM
- - davidenglish   It is true that Hermione did not reveal that the p...   Feb 4 2008, 03:01 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTERecognizing that a muggle doesn't underst...   Feb 4 2008, 03:10 PM
- - Oryx   QUOTEOf course, we don't know if the pimples a...   Feb 4 2008, 03:10 PM
|- - harrydavid   QUOTE(Oryx @ Feb 4 2008, 04:10 PM) QUOTEO...   Feb 4 2008, 04:20 PM
|- - roonwit   QUOTE(harrydavid @ Feb 4 2008, 09:20 PM) ...   Feb 4 2008, 04:59 PM
- - davidenglish   I agree, momwitch. We seem to live in a world wher...   Feb 4 2008, 04:26 PM
- - Tom Scribble   QUOTEI stand corrected, Tom, but the whole thing a...   Feb 4 2008, 05:25 PM
|- - momwitch   QUOTE(Tom Scribble @ Feb 4 2008, 11:25 PM...   Feb 4 2008, 06:39 PM
- - bookmonster79   I have a real issue with the idea that the only re...   Feb 4 2008, 06:19 PM
- - davidenglish   Excellent point, bookmonster79. I suspect most fan...   Feb 4 2008, 06:30 PM
- - hedwig2323   It seems like the original question also did not t...   Feb 4 2008, 06:49 PM
- - Oryx   QUOTEIt seems like the original question also did ...   Feb 4 2008, 07:06 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEWell, this is really something that is subjec...   Feb 4 2008, 10:08 PM
- - davidenglish   QUOTE(Oryx @ Feb 5 2008, 12:06 AM) QUOTEI...   Feb 5 2008, 12:20 PM
- - Oryx   QUOTEAgreed. Harry must be grateful to Snape for l...   Feb 5 2008, 12:22 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   There was a previous thread that discussed Hermion...   Feb 5 2008, 04:36 PM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Feb 5 2008, 10:3...   Feb 5 2008, 04:56 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEI wouldn't know. I've never seen such...   Feb 5 2008, 05:29 PM
- - Oryx   QUOTEI also don't see why there is any need to...   Feb 5 2008, 05:55 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   Wondering: QUOTEThe Prince's Tale paints Petu...   Feb 5 2008, 05:56 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   Can we all agree that there is a difference betwee...   Feb 5 2008, 06:14 PM
- - Krumple_Horn   QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Feb 5 2008, 04:5...   Feb 5 2008, 08:11 PM
- - Oryx   QUOTEI also feel however that Snape's appearan...   Feb 5 2008, 08:39 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTENot to jump into the middle of the fray, and ...   Feb 5 2008, 08:50 PM
- - Oryx   QUOTEI do wonder why Eileen stays, or if she loved...   Feb 5 2008, 09:01 PM
- - Krumple_Horn   QUOTE(Oryx @ Feb 5 2008, 07:39 PM) QUOTEI...   Feb 5 2008, 09:06 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTERose Weasley also changed into robes before b...   Feb 5 2008, 11:28 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   Jumping in here to say I hope those of you in the ...   Feb 5 2008, 11:56 PM
- - cobhome   QUOTEPerhaps Snape's father abused his mother ...   Feb 6 2008, 01:59 AM
- - Oryx   Prejudice against Muggles exists all over. Even th...   Feb 6 2008, 02:38 AM
- - wondering   Maime: I just can't read Snape's clothing ...   Feb 6 2008, 08:55 AM
- - Oryx   QUOTEOkay I just reread the Prince's Tale, jus...   Feb 6 2008, 09:47 AM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEOr, its the tone of a shy, insecure boy who f...   Feb 6 2008, 01:37 PM
- - Krumple_Horn   QUOTEWearing ridiculous clothes in attempt to look...   Feb 6 2008, 01:45 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   Understood. I often choose to settle on certain i...   Feb 6 2008, 02:09 PM
- - Krumple_Horn   QUOTEFor discussion sakes and on a purely academic...   Feb 6 2008, 02:22 PM
- - davidenglish   Abuse or neglect are difficult things to prove fro...   Feb 6 2008, 02:39 PM
- - Krumple_Horn   QUOTEAbuse or neglect are difficult things to prov...   Feb 6 2008, 02:52 PM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(Krumple_Horn @ Feb 6 2008, 08:52 PM...   Feb 6 2008, 03:16 PM
- - wondering   Krumple_Horn: You've put it very well. The sto...   Feb 6 2008, 03:11 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEIt's comedic to see someone dressed incor...   Feb 6 2008, 03:12 PM
- - Krumple_Horn   I don't mean to suggest that Eileen made the i...   Feb 6 2008, 03:35 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEAnd Belatrix's opinion of Spinners End do...   Feb 6 2008, 03:47 PM
- - Shard   I'd just like to point out that how ever much ...   Feb 6 2008, 03:59 PM
|- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTE(Shard @ Feb 6 2008, 01:59 PM) I...   Feb 6 2008, 04:08 PM
- - Krumple_Horn   QUOTE(Shard @ Feb 6 2008, 02:59 PM) I...   Feb 6 2008, 04:03 PM
- - davidenglish   Actually, the Mill Towns of England never recovere...   Feb 6 2008, 04:05 PM
- - Krumple_Horn   QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Feb 6 2008, 03:0...   Feb 6 2008, 04:15 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEfind that harder to believe considering the a...   Feb 6 2008, 04:28 PM
- - Krumple_Horn   QUOTEWho would encourage this? Albus Dumbledore? W...   Feb 6 2008, 04:43 PM
|- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTE(Krumple_Horn @ Feb 6 2008, 02:43 PM...   Feb 6 2008, 04:53 PM
- - Oryx   To Maime the Hunter: QUOTEI often choose to settle...   Feb 6 2008, 05:55 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEApparently Dean's father didn't tell ...   Feb 6 2008, 06:23 PM
- - davidenglish   I'm utterly bewildered. What is the theme of t...   Feb 6 2008, 06:39 PM
|- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTE(davidenglish @ Feb 6 2008, 04:39 PM...   Feb 6 2008, 07:05 PM
|- - davidenglish   QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Feb 7 2008, 12:0...   Feb 6 2008, 09:37 PM
- - Oryx   Regarding the Marietta story - it is just one of a...   Feb 6 2008, 10:06 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEmost of the posters didn't have much symp...   Feb 7 2008, 03:00 AM
|- - finley   QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Feb 7 2008, 08:0...   Feb 7 2008, 05:53 AM
- - Oryx   QUOTEWhy doesn't Seamus Muggle Father doesn...   Feb 7 2008, 10:43 AM
- - marielle   I just want to let you all know that I have change...   Feb 7 2008, 11:49 AM
|- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTE(marielle @ Feb 7 2008, 09:49 AM) I ...   Feb 7 2008, 02:04 PM
- - Oxymoronic   QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Feb 7 2008, 02:0...   Feb 7 2008, 03:02 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEalthough the same could not be said of Harry ...   Feb 7 2008, 04:11 PM
- - Oxymoronic   QUOTE(Maime the Hunter @ Feb 7 2008, 04:1...   Feb 7 2008, 04:26 PM
- - Krumple_Horn   I've never considered why Snape is so cruel to...   Feb 7 2008, 04:48 PM
- - Maime the Hunter   QUOTEShe was branded, whether she wanted to be or ...   Feb 7 2008, 05:34 PM
- - Oryx   QUOTEI've never considered why Snape is so cru...   Feb 7 2008, 07:38 PM
- - davidenglish   "Did John Brown fail? John Brown began the wa...   Feb 7 2008, 07:54 PM
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