Underlying themes and dual interpretation, Conflicting intepretations in Harry Potter |
 Mar 16 2008, 04:20 PM
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#491
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In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility  Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party  |
QUOTE(momwitch @ Mar 16 2008, 04:57 PM)  As an aside, why didn't James write that letter to Sirius thanking him for Harry's gift? As his friend (and Harry's father) if any letter was to be written, it should have been by him - let's face it, what did he do all day? Why did it take Lily (a few months after Harry's birthday) to finally send a thank you to him, when he was James' friend? I can't answer why it was Lily rather than James to write the letter besides a plot device, but I'm not sure that the letter was written that long after Harry's birthday at the end of July. I know it seems that way based on the Wormtail's mentioned attitude, but I interpreted Lily's writing as though it was written shortly after Harry's birthday (we do know that Wormtail was a spy for a long time, and he may not have had a good poker face). -------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
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Mar 16 2008, 04:34 PM
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#492
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 232 Joined: 3:54am June 9, 2005 |
QUOTE Why did it take Lily (a few months after Harry's birthday) to finally send a thank you to him, when he was James' friend? Lily is definitely acting like a mother who picked up the slack for her "charge's" lack of common etiquette - she is acting like a mother for James. LOL - and when, exactly, have you seen a father sit down and write thank you letters like that?!! In every single family I know, both family members and my friends, the thank-you's and similar notes fall to the wife/mother: men can write endless reports and presentations, but picking up a pen to write a three line thank you is quite out of the question. As for writing to best friends ... James knows that Sirius knows his present was appreciated - men don't need to say those things aloud, especially between best friends. They also naturally understand that the present was as much for James as it was for Harry, because James would have great fun in helping Harry to fly, and neither of them needs to say anything about it. Any thank you's will be said when they next catch up, probably through a casual remark about Harry's flying prowess, and that's just the way men are. That is one of the fallacies I see in so many fanfics - men having great heart to heart chats, enormous angsty reconciliation scenes, pouring out their emotions to each other, etc. They Just Don't. (Something JKR understands perfectly, as in the Harry/Ron reconciliation in GOF, or Percy/twins in DH). Men relate to each other in an entirely different way to women, much of it non-verbal and just 'understood'. So there is nothing strange or significant in Lily being the one to write. As for Lily and Snape, I don't think Lily needed any more "closure" than what she had in fifth year. That little scene outside Gryffindor was the closure: Lily had obviously been battling with Snape for some time, trying to get him to see what he was doing, how wrong it was, and how it hurt people. She had made it clear that she was upset about his behaviour and attitudes, she had even stood up for him when others wouldn't even talk to him. But that day, when Snape called her a Mudblood, she came to The End. And she told him so. Lily strikes me as far too sensible to waste time and effort on 'regrets' like that, because she had made her Choice, had ended a relationship, and she had moved on in life. ETA: Agree with harrypottergeek2: QUOTE I'm not sure that the letter was written that long after Harry's birthday at the end of July. I know it seems that way based on the Wormtail's mentioned attitude, but I interpreted Lily's writing as though it was written shortly after Harry's birthday (we do know that Wormtail was a spy for a long time, and he may not have had a good poker face). From its tone, I'd say the letter was written sometime in August, because we know that JKR is not good at timelines and exact dates, and trying to relate the various inconsistencies (such as when the McKinnons died, if you relate it to the photo in OotP) will just drive you to tear your hair out. And Lily would have put any strangeness in Wormtail's attitude down to the general stress of the war, and the fact that he, as an Order member, was also constantly in danger.Alkari This post has been edited by Alkari: Mar 16 2008, 04:54 PM |
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Mar 16 2008, 05:00 PM
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#493
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Kibble Boy/Girl at the Magical Menagerie Posts: 263 Joined: 7:41am January 19, 2008 Location: NoThingfjord |
Lily writes about crying after learning the news of the McKinnon murder. They were murdered by Death Eaters. By that time, Lily's former friend Sev was a Death Eater in good standing. Why would she want to have any contact with him? She might have mourned what the boy she was friend with became, but she wouldn't want to meet that man.
QUOTE In the case of Lily and Snape it seems that closure never took place, and I don't believe that after 6 or 7 years of friendship, a "see ya" goodbye is adequate to form the closure that is needed to move on. Lily did see Sev for two years more on Hogwarts, hanging out with his VoldieJugend friends. That would be closure enough. QUOTE If Lily's best friend turned out to be a female Death Eater who still cared for Lily, I have few doubts that James would restrict or make it difficult for Lily to maintain the friendship I can't imagine Lily herself wanting to be friends with someone who tortured and murdered people like herself, male or female. QUOTE Lily seems to be acting as a mother to James and all of his friends, trying to arrange "playdates" so that James could have boyish fun and games to distract him and occupy his time. All his friends? What did she try to arrange for Remus and Peter, or even Sirius? Not to mention the other friend James had, but we never meet in canon? And where is "boyish fun and games" mentioned? -------------------- Never mind what should be or
what might be or what ought to be. It's what things are that's important. Granny Weatherwax |
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Mar 16 2008, 05:52 PM
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#494
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Grand Pooh-Bah of the Poking Sticks Emporium  Posts: 7,144 Joined: 3:53pm January 4, 2008 Location: Fine-tuning her Spambot Magnet   |
QUOTE(momwitch) Why did it take Lily (a few months after Harry's birthday) to finally send a thank you to him, when he was James' friend? Lily is definitely acting like a mother who picked up the slack for her "charge's" lack of common etiquette - she is acting like a mother for James. QUOTE(Alkari) LOL - and when, exactly, have you seen a father sit down and write thank you letters like that?!! In every single family I know, both family members and my friends, the thank-you's and similar notes fall to the wife/mother: men can write endless reports and presentations, but picking up a pen to write a three line thank you is quite out of the question. Speaking as a female, I would like to see a man sit down and write a thank you letter; and I can understand momwitch's sentiments but as Alkari says above, that just doesn't happen, or very, very, very rarely. Men don't operate that way and a thank you between males is usually a given, or just a verbal thank you is enough. Men communicate very differently than women do. And I can just imagine Sirius' face if in fact James had written a thank you letter; he would have been teased endlessly. --------------------  |
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Mar 16 2008, 05:58 PM
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#495
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In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party |
As a dude, I agree for the most part of what Alkari says about guys sending thank-you notes to each other, or having the sort of heart to heart talks about our feelings that were also mentioned in that post - we just don't do that sort of thing.
However, considering that owls act as the Muggle equivalent of e-mails, and considering what the main focus of the letter was (to persuade Sirius to stop by and break James' frustration of seeing the same two people day in and day out), I'm not entirely convinced that including a thank-you would be out of the question for a guy. I see the thank-you aspect of Lily's letter as a friendly way to open her letter requesting Sirius' company on James' behalf, and while a woman is far more likely to send an owl/e-mail strictly for a thank-you purpose, I don't know if Lily would have sent that letter if she wasn't concerned about James' sanity regarding his house arrest. Also, if I were to send an e-mail to my one of my buddies for whatever reason (such as arranging a day on the golf course), and they recently did a favour for me, I would likely include a brief thank-you as an ice-breaker sort of thing. -------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
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Mar 16 2008, 07:26 PM
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#496
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 232 Joined: 3:54am June 9, 2005 |
Thaks harrypottergeek2, it's good to have a guy confirm the different male to male communication techniques! It's actually something I've talked about with a male friend who is also an HP fan, in terms of the male relationships we see in the books, especially the Ron/Harry friendship.
I agree with you about the owls as e-mails, but I don't think James would ever specifically 'ask for help' in this way, in terms of suggesting that Sirius drop by (again, I suspect that's a male thing, about being reluctant to ask for help, especially emotional help). IMHO, James knew perfectly well that Sirius was busy on Order business, and as a fellow Order member, he would understand the time and commitment that involved. I think he and Sirius had a "best mates" understanding, that Sirius would drop by as and when he could, because (as JKR has confirmed), James, Lily and Harry were his 'family' to Sirius. He would be a bit frustrated that Sirius couldn't / didn't so so more frequently, but James would never voice those concerns - it would be Lily who'd do that. IF James had had a good reason for inviting Sirius over, such as particular news, or something he needed to discuss urgently, I can see him owling Sirius to 'come for dinner', and including a brief note about the broomstick and the fact that Sirius would see for himself how well Harry was flying. Alkari This post has been edited by Alkari: Mar 16 2008, 07:29 PM |
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Mar 16 2008, 07:43 PM
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#497
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In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party |
Once again, I agree with Alkari for the most part, although I wasn't trying to say that James would ever write to Sirius to invite him over like that.
 James, as an Order member himself, would have undoubtedly understood the importance of Sirius' Order duties compared to his own comforts. However, if James needed to communicate with Sirius via an owl (such as to give him important information), then I could see him slipping in the thank-you, but that's about the only scenario I could imagine James mentioning it. In fact, if Sirius had got such a letter that was supposed to be from James (one with no other purpose than to thank him), then Sirius would have either been suspicious of this strange behaviour, or, as lirene accurately predicted, would have teased him if it was in fact James who sent the letter. -------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
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Mar 16 2008, 09:56 PM
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#498
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Monster Book Stacker Posts: 373 Joined: 7:34pm September 10, 2007 Location: Wandering through wondering... |
QUOTE(harrypottergeek2 @ Mar 16 2008, 06:58 PM) As a dude, I agree for the most part of what Alkari says about guys sending thank-you notes to each other, or having the sort of heart to heart talks about our feelings that were also mentioned in that post - we just don't do that sort of thing. I'm thinking you're speaking generally here, but I can't help but feel that you're lumping all males under this broad, sweeping notion which is way too stereotypical, methinks. I have several examples in my own life of male friendships where they've lived together and had "heart-to-heart" talks about their lives and have bonded and become as close as brothers. There's always such exceptions, as I'm sure you're aware, so I find it curious that you (and others) make such statements that seem so definitive. You're a guy, and I certainly cannot speak as one, but I've seen examples in life where men have close and heartfelt relationships, and thank goodness for it. Even Ron and Harry had their emotional showing after Ron destroyed the Locketcrux in Deathly Hallows. Harry, although he may not have had such a glimpse into Ron's soul before then, certainly had a front-row seat to Ron's inner-most fears and desires in that scene, and although Ron may have been uncomfortable crying there in the snow afterward, he did, and Harry was there, and he comforted him, and they hugged, and yes - although they certainly didn't have a lengthy heart-to-heart about the whole ordeal, Harry made his views on the matter clear, and Ron was grateful for it. I understand that, generally speaking, perhaps you have a point and men don't usually show emotion, as perhaps society dictates that it is, in fact, unmanly to do so, but I've seen nothing in my own life to support your statement above, which is why I felt the need to impart my views on the matter. 
-------------------- All our knowledge has its origins in our perceptions - Leonardo da Vinci
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Mar 17 2008, 12:13 AM
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#499
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In Charge of Invisible Books of Invisibility Posts: 1,153 Joined: 12:36am January 18, 2008 Location: Waterloo, ON - getting Butterbeer for Hagrid's "Support Harry Potter" party |
To Oxymoronic:
I certainly respect your opinion, and I actually think you're right in saying that guys to have long talks, but the point that Alkari and I were making was that guys don't go out of their way to get in touch with how the other is feeling. The sort of lengthly talks that guys usually have (at least in my experiences) are more like reminiscing on their past experiences - the stupid things they've done, the amazing times they've had, etc. And often times - depending on who the conversation is with - they are using it as a way to get to know each other better. I had plenty of these sorts of conversations with one of my roommates in first year University, because we never knew each other before then. However, you do make a good point that usually is the key word here. I've definitely had the sort of conversations with guys I've bonded really well with that go a bit past the sort of things I mentioned earlier, but still, I'm not sure if they really qualified as heart-to-heart talks about feelings. Either way, these conversations are so rare that we almost forget we even have them, which again was what Alkari and I were trying to imply. Once again, Harry and Ron exemplify these overall ideas. When they first meet on the train, they had loads to talk about, and Harry seemed to ask numerous questions of what it's like to grow up in a wizarding family (probably more so than what we actually see in the book). Even during the whole Locketcrux scene, the resulting conversation didn't seem too lengthly to me, which is unsurprising considering the state they were both in physically. -------------------- "Tell me why, why must we fight?
And why must we kill in the name of what we think is right? No more! No war! 'Cause how do you know?" -- P.O.D. - from their new album When Angels and Serpents Dance -- |
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Mar 17 2008, 01:56 AM
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#500
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Eeylops Owl Cage Cleaner Posts: 232 Joined: 3:54am June 9, 2005 |
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that men NEVER have heart to heart discussions, Oxymoronic, because of course they do - just as women will often communicate non-verbally, simply by 'being there' and doing something with/for a friend. But taken as a general rule , men do communicate in somewhat different ways to women. My complaint also stemmed from reading many a fanfic where boys/men were prone to having long heart to hearts in situations where there was no need. I found the huge number of "intense" and soul-searching reconciliation scenes with Percy and his brothers (especially the twins) prior to Book 7 to be highly amusing - especially as I kept suggesting that if Percy was reconciled, it would occur in very much the no-fuss, no-angst way that JKR wrote it, simply because they were males!
You have also taken my remark slightly out of context, because I was originally responding to a post by momwitch in which she asked why Lily was the one to write to Sirius, and why James couldn't have written the thank you note. She also suggested that Lily was somehow "mothering" James and his friends. I pointed out that I would not have expected James to write to Sirius at all - he didn't need to, because in the context of their friendship, this would not have been expected or required. As lirene noted, if James had written a polite thank-you note to Sirius, Sirius's likely reaction would have been: "Who are you, and what have you done with my best mate, James Potter?" And Lily's reason for writing was not so much to thank Sirius, as it was to suggest he drop by and see James, who was frustrated at being cooped up and would appreciate his friend's company.And if we are looking at themes and dual interpretations, I think this is an interesting aspect to look at re the books and readers' reactions: the different expectations in terms of "communication". For all that we may wish that certain things had been communicated earlier by certain characters in the HP books - the change in SK, DD's reason for why he didn't teach Harry Occlumency, etc - I think that the way in which JKR's characters communicate is really spot-on. Ron and Harry's friendship is a particularly good example. Alkari This post has been edited by Alkari: Mar 17 2008, 02:02 AM |
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