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WB/JKR vs RDR Part 14
DorisTLC
post May 29 2008, 06:10 PM
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Hey everyone,

It's time to start Part 14 of this thread. Below you'll see links to previous threads.

This is a very volatile topic and I'd like to remind everyone to keep the discussion to the case, the evidence and the people directly involved with this case. I would also like to as you to remember to look over your post for any comments that could be construed as flaming.



Thanks for the continued mature discussion.

Doris


---------------------------------------
All of the related news articles can be found on this feed:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/archives/category/389
The most recent article is on a Chicago Tribune piece here:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2008/5/3...-of-the-lexicon
You can view the evidence and legal proceedings here at Justia.com
There is also now a poll on the main site where you can vote for which side you believe will win the trial and see how others voted.

WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA Part I
WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA Part II
WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA Part III
WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA Part IV
WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA Part V
WB/JKR vs RDR/SVA Part VI
WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA Part VII
WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA Part VIII
WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA Part IX
WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA Part X
WB/JKR vs. RDR/SVA Part XI
WB/JKR vs. RDR Part XII
WB/JKR vs. RDR Part XIII

"The Impact of this suit on Fandom"


This post has been edited by DorisTLC: May 29 2008, 06:42 PM
Reason for edit: To make iheartprofessorsnape happy! LOL


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Elanor Isolda
post May 29 2008, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE(MelissaTLC @ May 30 2008, 12:26 AM) *
Not getting to publish a book absolutely pales in comparison to what you go through when you lose a friend - at least, that's how I feel.


You may have lost a friend, Melissa, but we have lost dozens. Steve because he stood by something he believed in, and me because I refused to disown him.

If you think that our suffering comes down to nothing more that "not getting to publish a book" then you are - please forgive the phrase - delusional. You know full well what this has cost us. We have both been ousted from a community that once meant a lot to us. I have had to cancel my convention. You know that we have received death threats. I am terrified of going out in public places because of abuse, both verbal and physical, that I have received because of this lawsuit.

Does this compare to losing a "friend"? One you valued so little that you a) gave him no opportunity to explain, and b) betrayed his confidence by handing over personal emails to the plaintiffs?

QUOTE(MelissaTLC @ May 30 2008, 12:26 AM) *
That a career problem is nothing next to losing a friend


This is not a "career problem." That you ascribe so little humanity to us is, frankly, unbelievable. But at least it explains why you believe there's no malice in your actions: after all, it was not malicious of Harry to kill Voldemort, was it?

This, on the off-chance it is allowed to remain, will be my final post in this forum. I know that some of you have appreciated the chance to hear another side to the story, but I cannot maintain any reasonable discussion in an environment where I am not treated like a person with legitimate feelings.

If anyone does wish to continue a reasonable conversation, you can find me over on LJ. Otherwise, I wish you all the best.

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davidenglish
post May 29 2008, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE(Elanor Isolda @ May 29 2008, 11:16 PM) *
Yes, you are calling him a liar. And me. Denying that you have said something does not change the fact that it's right there in black and white. Although this does go some way to explaining your completely over the top reaction to Tim Wu's article.
Well, SVA has not been truthful throughout this whole mess, has he? He did not ask CLLA about a book, but he implied it again and again. He pretended he didn't see this coming, but he did. He saw it coming when he asked for the indemnity clause; he saw it coming when Neil Blair's enquiry came; he saw it coming when he saw the cc'ed Cease & Desist letters piling up. And yet he cheerily tells Melissa that all's well and he doesn't mention that he'd gotten the same letters and had chosen to ignore them.

Now, I'd be happier knowing that SVA tried to talk RDR into cancelling the project. But we didn't see any emails to that effect. I recall an email from RDR where he stated that indemnifying the author was the reverse of industry practice, but I don't recall the context. And SVA acts as if it's none of his business when the lawsuit is filed. Just some unpleasantness that will pass. Indeed, he tells all his fans he didn't see it coming ~even though he'd seen it coming for seven weeks and suspected it might happen a month before that.

SVA didn't even have the courage to tell Melissa that he'd worked out a sweetheart deal to profit from the Floo Network. Nice guy. And what exactly did he promise the Lexicon staff? What did he tell them? Did they too learn about the impending lawsuit on November 1st?

I'm sorry. Lisa Bunker has made yet another comment on her Madam Pince blog. She said she was terrified in November and had no lawyer and feared for her house. She doesn't say if she was told of the warnings that came before. Indeed, she sounded as if she suspected nothing. Did SVA keep his staff in the dark? And when SVA does talk to her it's to tell her RDR's lawyers advised not discussing it with anyone. But RDR's interests were NOT the interests of SVA or LB or the other two co-authors. Indeed, if SVA had lied to his co-authors in any way, they had no reason to have sleepless nights or panic attacks; they too were mistreated by RDR/SVA. So, I don't see SVA having the best interests of his staff uppermost in his mind.

Elanor Isolda, if you have no idea how SVA has hurt Melissa, Sue, TLC and his many friends and fans in the Potter World, you should reread the beginning of thread one. SVA misled and lied to these people. That was clear from the email produced in court that SVA wrote to Melissa. Do you realise it wasn't until December 5th at a small gathering at Grand Valley State University that SVA even answered what was and was not in the proposed book? Fans had been asking for seven weeks if it contained fan art and fan essays. RDR said it did. SVA only said he wasn't the sort of person who would take stuff without asking, but that's what he'd done with JKR's stuff. And, it was RDR slapping stuff into a book and SVA was standing about like a gormless wonder acting as if he couldn't stop it.

"What a mess!" -David Langford


This post has been edited by davidenglish: May 29 2008, 08:00 PM


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Weird One
post May 29 2008, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE(roonwit @ May 29 2008, 08:29 PM) *
QUOTE(rotfang07 @ May 30 2008, 12:12 AM) *
Many could not understand why the book was not simply pulled. The answer is clear. SVA believes the book is both legally and morally justified (or should be), therefore any obligations he felt to JKR were secondary to those he owed to his own efforts, those of the book's co-compilers/authors and to its publisher(s).
That and presumably because it would have been difficult to extricate himself from the contract.



I would imagine that in the excitement of being approached to have the Lexicon published (quite a compliment for a librarian/lover of books/HP superfan) it was fairly inexpensive to get legal advice and get oneself into a contract quite a different matter to reverse the process. The phrase "breach of contract" may have been bandied about as well. Many a person has been bankrupted pursuing lawsuits. While I realize these are situations that one should consider when entering controvsial territory sometimes we humans find ourselves in a "honeymoon phase" of an agreement and have blinders on. Not everyone is a lawyer or has immediate access to a good one.


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rotfang07
post May 29 2008, 07:45 PM
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No, roonwit, Elanor explained SVA for moral reasons had no interest in breaking his contract. He was committed on all levels to fulfilling it.

Can someone tell me what LJ is and give me a link? (assume LexiconJournal/LiveJournal?)


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dresdenfiles.fan
post May 29 2008, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE(rotfang07 @ May 29 2008, 06:45 PM) *
No, roonwit, Elanor explained SVA for moral reasons had no interest in breaking his contract. He was committed on all levels to fulfilling it.

Can someone tell me what LJ is and give me a link? (assume LexiconJournal?)

Here you be:


http://madam-pince.blogspot.com/ Just click on the comments, and scroll to the bottom.


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luna'sceiling
post May 29 2008, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE(rotfang07 @ May 29 2008, 07:12 PM) *
This has been said before: it is dangerous to want your cake and to eat it too. To go ahead with this book was to effectively break with JKR, the Floo Network, TLC, and a large chunk of fandom. This has been done, as I understand it, as a matter of principle on the part of SVA, i.e. he had a legal and moral right to publish the LM but was prepared to make some changes to accomodate JKR.


This is part of the equation that I will never understand. Why does going ahead with a book equate with breaking with JKR etc etc etc? The vast majority of fans have no real understanding of the issues involved in the case. Look at the comments from Leaky News reports and that notion is clearly confirmed. Comments such as "poor Jo," and "How awful for her," proliferate the plethora of responses from the masses. I suppose it is human nature to want to side with someone you have come to admire. Nevertheless, even the most admirable human beings are subject to human flaws. In my opinion, because JKR wrote a great series of books does not automatically mean she is right. Fact of the matter SVA was willing to make changes to accommodate JKR and JKR said under oath that she had no intention of suppressing the book, just that it be changed to take less of her work. SVA submitted to the court changes to the LM and expressed a willingness to do more. I guess I am failing to see JKR holding her end of that exchange. If JKR was truthful in that statement then she agreed that SVA had a legal and moral right to publish that book as well. Further, if her statement was truthful then there needn't be any reason for the large chunk of fandom, TLC, the Floo to break from SVA or otherwise demonize him. It is entirely unnecessary and rather sad.

QUOTE(rotfang07 @ May 29 2008, 07:12 PM) *
In copyright law there is also a provision about paying the appropriate price for derivative works. I just wonder whether SVA really thought this one through, particularly in terms of the real price that will have to be paid whether or not the LM is finally published. From what Elanor Isolda has said in previous posts he did not. The trouble is if the LM is published in its current form it will only make things worse.

The best outcome for all is for RDR to lose this case, write his blockbuster on how he no doubt "Vanquished Voldemort" and SVA can get on with his Methuen HP-related series of books. As I've said before my feeling is this is pretty much how it will pan out in the end.

I am not sure how anyone could have anticipated what was to ensue from attempting to publish this book. In my opinion, the cost has been far and away out line with the supposed offense. Perhaps you are right on the outcome of this book, though I find that notion incredibly disheartening. JKR can suppress this book through extensive litigation where compromise was possible. In such a scenario, I will find it very hard to believe that the statement there was no desire to suppress this book had any truth whatsoever.


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rotfang07
post May 29 2008, 08:23 PM
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Thanks dresdenfiles.fan, I'm not much cop at this kind of fan site stuff. coweatyou I think made a link to this site. So LJ means Lisa's Journal I assume? I was sorry to see Lisa Bunker had been left in the lurch and not told she had no need to fear her house would be taken from her.

Why did they not consult each other and ensure they got legal advice if only from RDR? I thought we Brits had cornered the market on amateur, surely in the US you have free citizen's advice bureaus like here in the UK? I'm aghast the consequences of all this were not thought through.

The sooner this is over the better. I've lost my last coconut ice square so I'm putting the remnants of my final exploding bonbon on September. Ever the optimist.

Sigh.

luna'sceiling, just seen your post. I think you are right about most not following this case, something that applies to all issues I'm afraid. I specialise in a certain field and every time it is reported I laugh at the simplistic coverage. Whenever it is discussed no one has a clue of the ins and outs. The same applies here. It's true that a small portion of fandom has educated themselves on copyright to an astonishing degree but most people I know have no interest in, or knowledge of, the details of this case.

Re the compromise. I believe both SVA and JKR were sincere. The way I see it is as I posted. SVA was committed to the book which he honestly sees as morally and legally sustainable, and, in any case ought to be allowable in principle. JKR on the other hand sees it as grossly infringing, so the gap between them is too great.

SVA would need to write a book that was fair use in the sense of lots of commentary and research on non-HP topics and possibly have a Lexicon within it, which is more like a very concise explanation of the main characters, fictitious beasts etc. Nothing remotely like the LM as is. This is what JKR, imo, meant by accepting SVA's book. Essentially a re-write that could include some form of Lexicon as a section within it. I believe JKR was sincere about that. But, as I say the gap is just too wide. Lisa Bunker does say on her site she cannot understand how anyone could object to the Lexicon as is. I believe that that has been the problem all along. They just don't get the basic principles of copyright, or believe that because their intentions are good copyright should not apply.

Everything we have learnt so far is that the underlying principle of copyright law is: Copier Beware. I have been shocked at the extent I have unknowingly copyright infringed in the past. This case has been a salutary lesson to me.


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dresdenfiles.fan
post May 29 2008, 08:27 PM
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I disagree, luna'sceiling, with the statement that the vast majority do not understand what this is all about. A vast majority of fans have gone out of their way to educate themselves, not just on this one case but on copyright in general. And that vast majority, having educated themselves have reached a general consensus. The book, as it appears in court papers, is highly infringing.

Just because Rowling is an author of a fantastic children's series does not necessarily make her right...that's true, now show me where anyone who has taken time to educate themselves on this issue has said that. Frankly, I've only seen this assumption repeated from the pro-defense side of this issue. But then why, if she's not right, would Steve concede to alter the book that he believes doesn't infringe at all? IMO, because it infringes. The opinion you expressed is quite like that of Steve's remark "Rowling is god..."

You want to be upset because Rowling won't accept changes at this late date? When Elanor explained that it was RDR who wouldn't countenance changes? When it was RDR who was deceitful and rude and who's blown smoke all these months? It's still up to RDR to settle and he apparently has no intention of doing so. Guess it's easier to place all the blame on the copyright holder. Never mind that a copyright holder is perfectly within their legal rights to challenge a work that they deem to infringe their rights. Never mind that it is the judge who will determine if this book is quashed or not.

I'm sorry, I respectfully disagree with you.


This post has been edited by dresdenfiles.fan: May 29 2008, 09:46 PM


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chiara515
post May 29 2008, 08:39 PM
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QUOTE
chiara515, I wish I could say the speeding ticket analogy was relevant but it is most certainly not. In the advent of modern technology (speeding cameras), it is more than possible to catch every speedster and prosecute him. It is possible catch people who are downloading music or books instead of paying for them too. But it is not possible to supervise the purchaser of every book to ensure that he is not scanning it or copying parts of it (e.g. if he needs a larger resolution for his personal use). And even if you did, you could not seriously prosecute him unless he was distributing it to others--which common sense dictates is indeed illegal. This is why there are people known as Judges who show "discretion" according to whatever cases are placed before them. This is part of why certain parts of the copyright law needs to be adjusted somewhat. If a judge can say that the law is murky, who are we to insist that it is perfectly clear and does not require "discretion"?

Furthermore, as someone who has lost people in road accidents, I strongly believe that you are trivializing the matter of speeding (and by extension other traffic violations such as drinking and driving). Lives have been lost from speeding; the consequences are far graver for the populace than me scanning/photocopying a chapter from a book I bought: i.e paid for with my own money. Quite frankly, I find the comparison rather ludicrous.

Finally, you are right about the fact that this has nothing to do with the issue at hand (the Lexicon copyright case). Whether Mr. VA took the information from the scanned copies or the original books, it is still copyrighted material which needs to be cited properly. Mr. VA answered the question truthfully under oath about owning scans from the books, which he said he used during his research for the Lexicon website (and presumably the book as well). Presumably the scans were made for the benefit of the Lexicon staff who were compiling the information for the website and transferred between themselves? I do not know the answer to this and there is no proof that he was distributing it to other people for free or for profit. If there is conclusive proof that he did so, I am sure there will be repercussions. But I do not like spreading falsehoods so I refrain from making categorical remarks about people and things I don't know.

As a researcher who has scanned & photocopied parts of my own personal copies of other books (not the HP books because I didn't quote enough from them to require scanning), I cannot throw stones at Mr. VA (remember Christ's admonition? Let he that is without sin...). It would be profoundly hypocritical of me or of many a researcher I know to condemn Mr. VA for scanning something from a book for personal use. That is not to say that I do not accept that the law exists or that I condone illegal downloading or uploading (totally different issue in my opinion): I am saying the law forbidding people from copying or scanning parts of books they own for their own personal use is impractical and unreasonable for a number of reasons.

And I will continue to say so.

You have the right to differ; but let's not keep flogging a dead horse and coming up with even more ludicrous scenarios and offensive comparisons.


Kabbymoh, you have missed the entire point of my post. And I actually find it quite offensive that you would equate an analogy about speeding to condoning drinking and driving. I realize that lives have been lost from speeding, and that it can carry heavier consequences than a ticket; you are certainly not the only person who has known people who died in car accidents. I fail to see how my comment was insensitive. Should I never speak of the lesser consequences of speeding for fear of offending someone who had been involved in or lost someone to a speed-related crash? My best friend was hit by a car as she crossed the street in a crosswalk with the light. She was fortunate enough to survive. Neither she nor I nor anyone else who was affected by that incident would tell people that an analogy about jaywalking trivializes the potential consequences of crossing the road. I am sorry if anything I said offended you, but I think that you have greatly misinterpreted my meaning, and you have definitely extrapolated it to the point that it is absurd, and put words in my mouth that certainly do not belong there.

As I apparently was not clear enough with my meaning before, I will clarify. I chose the speeding analogy simply because speed limits are an example of a law that many many people choose to break. My point was not about consequences, or the severity thereof, or about the likelihood of being caught, or anything else that you brought up in your response. The point was about the argument you (general) would make if, hypothetically, you were caught breaking the law. You can choose to do anything you want. You can choose to break any or all laws in the book if you want to. BUT, if, hypothetically, you are caught speeding, or shoplifting, or in possession of an illegal substance, or with illegal electronic copies of copyrighted material, you cannot stand in court and argue that "the speed limit shouldn't be so slow," "the prices shouldn't be so high," "I think marijuana should be legal," or "I ought to be able to scan a book I own." THAT was my point. And that is the reasoning that I see you arguing with: "I should be able to scan a book that I bought and paid for." I have yet to see you argue that that viewpoint is present in the actual law as it exists now. If you choose to scan your own books for personal use, that is none of my business. We at least seem to be able to agree that that is irrelevant. If you would like to see the law changed, again, that is none of my business and also irrelevant. As to the comment that there is no proof that SVA distributed the electronic copies, I refer you to the transcript excerpts Brigadoon's post #468 in the previous thread. Sharing the electronic copies among the Lexicon staff still qualifies as "distribution," regardless of if it was for profit or not.


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davidenglish
post May 29 2008, 09:02 PM
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QUOTE(luna'sceiling @ May 30 2008, 02:06 AM) *
This is part of the equation that I will never understand. Why does going ahead with a book equate with breaking with JKR etc etc etc? The vast majority of fans have no real understanding of the issues involved in the case. Look at the comments from Leaky News reports and that notion is clearly confirmed. Comments such as "poor Jo," and "How awful for her," proliferate the plethora of responses from the masses.

Ah, and I suppose the comments by SVA's friends are more kind, civil, fair and balanced, yes? Will I find that at the LJ's of kaimon, rattlesnakeroot, bethbethbeth or clair-de-lalune? I'll go look and see. But the last time I looked I found some rather alarming comments. And none of them kind to JKR.

Going ahead with the book is breaking with fandom on four counts: 1) The book is plagiarism. It's mostly JKR's words and hardly any belonging to SVA, LB, JK or BH. Plagiarism is lying. And lies end most friendships. 2) It went against JKR's wishes and SVA had sworn in public to abide by JKR's wishes and that he'd never publish the Lexicon without her permission. Apparently there are some circumstances when SVA's word is NOT his bond and trust is something he wants but doesn't offer. 3) He forced this to a public lawsuit, thereby dividing fandom and forcing us to choose. All this time manipulating the fandom by pretending to be shocked and hoping to resolve it. His meeting with Neil Blair was useless. How can he offer changes when RDR hasn't authoised him to do anything. A proper rewrite of the lexicon would take months and be an entirely different book. That isn't negotiating, that's farce. And 4) He's suing to get money for the Timeline that's based on JKR's work. Ah, yes, the fan turns his hobby into a career. How nice! All he really wants is recognition ~and a pot o' gold wouldn't hurt either.

I'm sorry, luna'sceiling. You keep saying things that aren't factual. The court cannot consider settlement negotiations. That's not Judge Patterson's job. That's why it's so important to answer those C&Ds, because one will be judged by what was done as of the time the suit was begun. Offering to make changes after WB/JKR have filed suit doesn't make them less liable. They could still be sued for court costs. And that would still bankrupt RDR.

I'm sorry. A man who only expressed interest in reaching out to JKR after he faced the risk of being named as one of the Ten Does is not "Jo's man through and through". He's Roger's man through and through.


This post has been edited by davidenglish: May 29 2008, 09:16 PM


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