WWW Chat-- The Lost Boys: Harry, Voldemort, Snape, 08-22-07 |
 Aug 22 2007, 08:10 PM
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WeasleyCast's Hostess With The Mostest Posts: 6,606 Joined: 2:44am February 20, 2006 Location: At The Burrow taking cooking lessons from Molly   |
[17:59] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge
[18:00] *** ProngsPatronus has joined #lounge [18:00] <Aislinn> hey bibs! [18:00] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has joined #lounge [18:00] <Aislinn> chocolate! [18:00] <Aislinn> how are you? [18:00] <bibs> oh what do you it worked [18:00] *** hotshot9913 has joined #lounge [18:00] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> smile howdy! [18:01] <bibs> ill brb [18:01] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i've been better [18:01] <Aislinn> hi hotshot [18:01] <ProngsPatronus> hello, everyone! [18:01] <Aislinn> uh oh [18:01] <Aislinn> bad day? [18:01] <Aislinn> hi prongs smile [18:01] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> my mom called today to tell me that my childhood cat (that basically became hers when i went to college) went outside on Sunday night and they haven't seen her since [18:01] <hotshot9913> hi guys [18:01] <Aislinn> awww [18:01] <Aislinn> that's so sad [18:01] <bibs> good dayactually [18:02] <Aislinn> happy to hear it, bibs [18:02] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i'm trying to stay optimistic, since cats can sometimes come back weeks after going missing, but my parents are both being grim [18:02] <ProngsPatronus> awww--chocolate, I am so sorry to hear that! [18:02] <Aislinn> yes, we had one that was gone for 2 weeks and came back ok [18:03] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> she's sick and old, though - that's the part my parents are stuck on [18:03] <ProngsPatronus> every time mine did that disappearing act, they came back preggers [18:03] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha uh oh lol [18:03] <bibs> aw [18:03] <ProngsPatronus> :laugh: [18:03] <ProngsPatronus> :lol: [18:03] <ProngsPatronus> darn [18:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> so, my friend is dragging me off sometime tonight for dinner, so i'll probably be leaving sooner than usual lol [18:04] <ProngsPatronus> I just can't get that one to work... [18:04] <SoonerGryffindor> laugh [18:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> speaking of sooner! [18:04] <SoonerGryffindor> hehehe [18:04] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> smile hi [18:04] <SoonerGryffindor> hello [18:04] <ProngsPatronus> yay! [18:05] <ProngsPatronus> Sooner is in da houuuuuse [18:05] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [18:05] <SoonerGryffindor> Sooner is trying to eat dinner before the chat officially starts [18:05] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hehehe [18:05] <hotshot9913> so whats for dinner? [18:06] <ProngsPatronus> lol--we had dinner earlier rather than later tonight [18:06] <SoonerGryffindor> baked potato [18:06] <SoonerGryffindor> and its HOT [18:06] <SoonerGryffindor> I just burned my mouth [18:06] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> now the rest of it will taste like rubber [18:06] <bibs> yeah my mum lost hers for five weeks and it came back [18:06] <ProngsPatronus> italian turkey--breaded, with mozzarella [18:06] <ProngsPatronus> angel hair pasta [18:07] * SoonerGryffindor makes plans to eat at Prong's house next time [18:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i've got me some nuggets o'chicken [18:07] <hotshot9913> really prongs is it one of those lean quisine meals???? [18:07] <ProngsPatronus> and I made a beautiful little reduction sauce--lemon, herb, and capers [18:07] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [18:07] <ProngsPatronus> nope [18:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> what up fawksie [18:07] <ProngsPatronus> I actually do cook like that [18:07] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha [18:07] <fawkes28> Hello guys [18:08] <hotshot9913> im more of a mac and cheese kind of person myself [18:08] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [18:08] *** bibs_ has joined #lounge [18:08] <SoonerGryffindor> I am pretty simple myself. Stick a potato in the microwave for 7 minutes and you have dinner [18:08] <ProngsPatronus> I do mac and cheese, as well [18:09] <ProngsPatronus> it is just from scratch [18:09] *** bibs_ has quit [Bye] [18:09] <hotshot9913> but the blue box rocks [18:09] <ProngsPatronus> i can't make that [18:09] <ProngsPatronus> it always messes up [18:09] *** bibs_ has joined #lounge [18:09] *** Pleshette has joined #lounge [18:09] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> lol [18:09] <ProngsPatronus> ditto for minute rice [18:09] *** bibs_ has quit [Bye] [18:09] <Aislinn> hi pleshette [18:09] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i tried to make mashed potatoes from a box and managed to mess it up [18:10] <Pleshette> Hello smile [18:10] <ProngsPatronus> me, too--nasty school glue is what it wound up as being [18:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hi pleshette! [18:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> lol [18:10] <Aislinn> potato flakes, ugh. [18:10] <Pleshette> Mashed potatos is the best comfort food ever! Next to chocolate that is [18:10] <ProngsPatronus> I don't use mixes [18:10] <hotshot9913> i'm going to write a microwave cookbook... you can cook everything in the microwave [18:10] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> or chocolate IN mashed potatoes [18:10] <ProngsPatronus> not good with those [18:11] <Pleshette> heehee, I don't know about that [18:11] <ProngsPatronus> ooo--mashed potatoes mole [18:11] <SoonerGryffindor> ummm, Pleshette, I am eating a loaded baked potato right now [18:11] <ProngsPatronus> :-D [18:11] <SoonerGryffindor> its great comfort food [18:11] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i'm gonna run and get ice cream!!! brb [18:11] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [18:11] <Pleshette> Oooo! and to think I had pancakes for supper [18:11] <fawkes28> pleshette! [18:11] <fawkes28> i was just thinking about you [18:11] <Pleshette> Hey! [18:12] <SoonerGryffindor> pancakes for supper rock! [18:12] <Pleshette> Uh oh! [18:12] <Aislinn> yum [18:12] <fawkes28> hehehe [18:12] <Pleshette> they were blueberry pancakes too, yummy! [18:12] <fawkes28> chocolate, did you have that for breakfast again? [18:13] *** blue4t has joined #lounge [18:13] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> BACK [18:13] <hotshot9913> mmm blueberry pancakes... you guys are making me hungry! [18:13] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i didn't have ANY chocolate for breakfast, thank you very much! [18:13] <fawkes28> blueberry anything is my favorite [18:13] <Aislinn> hi blue4t [18:13] <blue4t> Hey [18:13] <Pleshette> Me too fawkes! [18:13] * fawkes28 gives Ashley a tight squeeze for good measure [18:13] <fawkes28> i mean chocolate laugh [18:13] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> haha nice [18:13] <fawkes28> sorry [18:14] <Pleshette> I have a question...on the new chat screen...where is the box to change text color? [18:14] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast requested CTCP smacks from #lounge: fawkes with the 2x4 [18:14] <SoonerGryffindor> no idea. I still log in using the old interface [18:14] <SoonerGryffindor> hey, that was a cool trick chocolate [18:14] <Aislinn> there isn't a way to permanently change it in the new interface [18:14] *** bibs has quit [Bye] [18:15] <Pleshette> oh, okay...thanks anyway [18:15] <Aislinn> you can only highlight a single line and then choose it above the text [18:15] <fawkes28> hahahaha [18:15] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hmm... do the " / me " things don't work on the new interface? [18:15] <SoonerGryffindor> LOL [18:15] <SoonerGryffindor> I was thinking you had invented a new trick [18:15] <Aislinn> they come out looking different [18:15] <Pleshette> Oh, I see...only the facilitaors have colors [18:16] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i didn't see anything happen lol - what did you see, sooner? [18:16] <SoonerGryffindor> [18:14] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast requested CTCP smacks from #lounge: fawkes with the 2x4 [18:16] <Aislinn> chocolateisnotforbreakfast requested CTCP smacks from #lounge: fawkes with the 2x4 [18:16] *** HeliumHead has joined #lounge [18:16] <Aislinn> hi heliumhead [18:16] <ProngsPatronus> hey, HH [18:16] <SoonerGryffindor> hey HH [18:16] <HeliumHead> hi there everyone [18:16] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> hahaha i requested a smack [18:16] <fawkes28> hello [18:16] <Pleshette> Hi HeliumHead [18:16] <fawkes28> which i deserved laugh [18:16] <SoonerGryffindor> lets get this party started, shall we? [18:17] <Aislinn> yes! [18:17] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i've got my ice cream, let's go! [18:17] <SoonerGryffindor> We will be starting the discussion in a few minutes. You're not going to be able to type for a few minutes while we make some announcements, please bear with us, you'll be able to type again soon. [18:17] <SoonerGryffindor> There may be times during the chat when a moderator will want to PM something to you. Please keep an eye on the top of your screen, right next to the button with #Lounge on it. A button will appear with one of the mods' names on it. If you see that appear, click on it to see the PM that has been sent to you by that mod. [18:17] <SoonerGryffindor> You won't be able to reply to that PM, but if you could just say something like "Sooner, got it" in the main chat, to let us know that you have seen it, that will be great. We'd also like to remind you that the rules of the Lounge also apply here in the Corner Booth, and may be found here: http://www.leakylounge.com/?act=rules [18:18] <SoonerGryffindor> If you need to contact us during the chat, send one, or all, of us a PM on the Lounge. We will be checking them regularly, but if we haven't replied after a little while then please let us know here that you have sent a PM. Thanks for your cooperation! [18:18] <SoonerGryffindor> While its easy to drift off in various directions, let's all try to have a fun chat by sticking to the topic for today. OK, moving on to the topic for the chat! [18:18] <fawkes28> Welcome to the Wise Wizard Wednesday chat! Tonight we will be exploring three fascinating characters: Voldemort, Snape, and Harry Potter. Each of these “Lost Boys” came under the tutelage of Albus Dumbledore; each was outstanding in his own way. The conflict between these characters drives most of the action in this series. Who are these 'lost boys', really? [18:18] <fawkes28> Described as a “psychopath” by his creator, Voldemort is a creature of immense talent, terminal flaws, and little to no conscience. [18:18] <fawkes28> What is the most striking characteristic of this character to you? [18:19] <Aislinn> his complete disregard for other people as human beings [18:19] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> most striking was his descriptions as a child - how he didn't attempt to make connections with other people even as an infant [18:19] <SoonerGryffindor> the bunny still haunts me [18:19] <Pleshette> his ability to find a person's weakness and use it to his advantage [18:19] <blue4t> his inability to love [18:19] <Aislinn> that was creepq sooner [18:19] <fawkes28> yes, harming animals as a child is never a good sign [18:19] <Aislinn> or creepy [18:20] <SoonerGryffindor> He really exhibited all of the classical signs of a sociopath from a very young age [18:20] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> an early sign of sociopath tendencies, [18:20] <ProngsPatronus> his real lack of emotion is creepy to me [18:20] <fawkes28> especially the fact that he was a loner [18:20] <hotshot9913> cruelty to animals is an early warning sign of a serial killer [18:20] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think he has emotion - he gets angry and excited [18:20] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> just, no empathy [18:20] <SoonerGryffindor> right [18:20] <Aislinn> he seems to look at the people around him as tools to be used, or objects to be discarded [18:20] <fawkes28> He almost seems bipolar in a way [18:20] <blue4t> he doesn't care for anyone but himself [18:20] <ProngsPatronus> I mean a normal range of emotions--and emotional triggers [18:20] <Aislinn> with no more emotion attached than tossing a used tissue [18:21] <SoonerGryffindor> on one level he understands emotions, but he doesnt experience them for himself, I think. except for anger [18:21] <ProngsPatronus> not even close to bipolar! [18:21] <Pleshette> his total disregard for the lives of others [18:21] <ProngsPatronus> he is happy when other people are in pain [18:21] <fawkes28> his line about making people hurt - was one of the creepiest lines in the book [18:21] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think it's funny when people say that he was angry at his father for abandoning him and his mother, but i think that he just hated the muggle side of things, and hated being connected to other people. I don't think he ever wanted a father, so i don't think he would have gotten angry at his father for abandoning him [18:21] <SoonerGryffindor> I thought his obsevations to himself on why he didn't kill the kid on Halloween was chiling [18:21] <blue4t> Do you think maybe he felt hurt by his parents so he wants to hurt everyone else? [18:22] <Pleshette> oh, me too Sooner! [18:22] <ProngsPatronus> I think one of the strangest of his characteristics is his almost clinical detachment from the wonder of the WW [18:22] <fawkes28> yes, blue - in his own warped state of thinking [18:22] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think that he could feel emotional hurt in the normal way [18:22] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i don't think so, blue - being hurt means that he wanted somehitng from someone else [18:22] <hotshot9913> makes you wonder what he'd be like if he had normal parents [18:22] <Aislinn> I got the impression that he considered himself too special to be stuck in an orphanage - it wasn't that he felt abandoned, just that he felt entitled to something grander. [18:22] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> and i don't think he EVER wanted to be cared for or have someone to depend on [18:22] <fawkes28> which goes back to the whole nature vs. nurture debate, hotshot [18:22] <SoonerGryffindor> he was very self-sufficient at a young age [18:23] <SoonerGryffindor> According to Jo, it wojuld have been different had Merope lived and loved him [18:23] <fawkes28> Why do you think Voldemort fears Death so much? [18:23] <blue4t> I agree, chocolate, but I do think if his childhood had been different, like his mother not abandoning him, maybe he would be different. [18:23] <SoonerGryffindor> so I am going to answer Yes, it would have made a difference to hotshot's question [18:23] <Aislinn> I think he views death as the ultimate defeat, and weakness [18:23] <Pleshette> i'm not sure about that chocolate...if he had experienced a loving parent growing up, perhaps he would have been different [18:23] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> Voldemort is all about being different, and death is the common denominator of all people... it's something he can't control and can't beat [18:23] <HeliumHead> because death took his mother [18:23] <SoonerGryffindor> exactly chocolate [18:24] <fawkes28> because of his mother, aislinn? [18:24] <SoonerGryffindor> Death is for everyone else. Voldemort thinks he is too good for it [18:24] <Aislinn> possibly, fawkes [18:24] <ProngsPatronus> yes, chocolate--a COOMON denominator--and Voldemort hated to think there was anything common about him [18:24] <hotshot9913> he thinks he's above death, he thinks he can outsmart death [18:24] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> exactly [18:24] <fawkes28> that's right sooner - he did want to be unique and special [18:25] <ProngsPatronus> he has made a distinction between power and death [18:25] <Aislinn> Dumbledore thought he was scared of death [18:25] <SoonerGryffindor> he is the ultimate control freak. Anything he cant control is unacceptable. I imagine growing up with a bunch of orphaned kids didnt help [18:25] <Aislinn> yes, I think control was a big part of it, sooner [18:25] <fawkes28> i think once he went to hogwarts and was exposed to dark arts, he quickly became obsessed and wanted to experiment with the boundaries of magic [18:25] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> another reason why i don't think he really minded being parent-less, if he had been raised by a parent, he might have understood dependency and love at a young age and wouldn't have minded being normal [18:25] <ProngsPatronus> he is the WW equvalent of a mad scientist [18:26] <SoonerGryffindor> he realized that Dark Magic could give him some control over death, so he naturally gravitated toward it [18:26] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think so Prongs [18:26] <SoonerGryffindor> He used magic that was already in place to cheat death. He did not create the concept of horcruxes [18:26] <ProngsPatronus> I mean the over-the-top-disregarding-normal-humans kind of mad scientist [18:26] <SoonerGryffindor> I just dont see LV as that imaginative [18:27] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it wasn't only death that motivated him - he wanted to do larger things - live up to his role as Slytherin's heir by eradicating muggle-borns [18:27] <ProngsPatronus> he split his soul seven times [18:27] <hotshot9913> lv just wasnt that smart [18:27] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [18:27] <ProngsPatronus> that is over the top! [18:27] <fawkes28> Do you think Voldemort believes in an afterlife? Why? [18:27] <Aislinn> he must not have believed that there was anything good for him beyond the veil [18:27] <blue4t> No. If he did, he might not be so afraid of death. [18:27] <SoonerGryffindor> he must have been very afraid of it if he did [18:27] <Aislinn> if he had understood it as Dumbledore did, he wouldn't have tried so hard not to die. [18:27] <ProngsPatronus> I think he knew he was doing evil, somewhere in the dark recesses of his brain [18:27] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> it wouldn't seem so, if he was so careless with destroying the part of him that would have lived on [18:27] <HeliumHead> you can find that amongst many other types too prongs, like tortured artists [18:27] <ProngsPatronus> and he was afraid of judgment [18:28] <Pleshette> perhaps he was afraid that nobody would be waiting there for him [18:28] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that anybody who lives in a world where you can see and communicate with ghosts must realize there is some form of afterlfie [18:28] <Aislinn> I wonder if that is it, Prongs - he was afraid of an ultimate judgement after death [18:28] <fawkes28> Voldemort was very disbelieving with certain things and i am pretty sure this was one of them [18:28] <ProngsPatronus> from someone more powerful than he [18:28] <fawkes28> If he did believe in an afterlife, he may have thought that it would be one in which he would have no magic powers [18:28] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> or that he was the same as everyone else, fawkes [18:29] <hotshot9913> think of all the spirits that would be there though, all of the people he hurt would be there at the same time, I wouldnt want to die if i was him either [18:29] <SoonerGryffindor> I think he did not trust that he would be as "special" in the afterlife as he would be in this world [18:29] <fawkes28> good point, chocolate [18:29] <ProngsPatronus> good point, hotshot [18:29] <Pleshette> that void, being completely powerless without anyone [18:29] <SoonerGryffindor> To DD, death is a great adventure, but LV was scared of that concept [18:29] <ProngsPatronus> or, perhaps, that the top spot was already taken [18:29] <fawkes28> and i am sure he despised Dd for saying that too [18:30] <ProngsPatronus> and LV had no chance at it [18:30] <HeliumHead> is it possible, that LV is just a scared little boy who was picked on because he was different [18:30] <blue4t> If he wasn't already dead, that would kill him [18:30] <blue4t> not being the top spot. [18:30] <HeliumHead> and so became the biggest bully [18:30] <ProngsPatronus> he may have been picked on once--just once [18:30] <SoonerGryffindor> I suppose that is possible and if that happened, I would feel very sorry for the kid who picked on him [18:31] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i've heard it said that if you want to contemplate your views about life, you need to contemplate your views about death, and Voldemort definitely saw death as the defining factor and obstacle to overcome [18:31] <ProngsPatronus> that would be enough to set the psychopathy into motion [18:31] <SoonerGryffindor> b ecause you know that LV did not let that go unpunished [18:31] <Aislinn> yeah, I think he learned at quite an early age to fend for himself [18:31] <fawkes28> Death wasn't good enough for him - he didnt want to settle [18:31] <SoonerGryffindor> that's a deep thought chocolate [18:31] <fawkes28> Voldemort's relations with the Death Eaters mirrors closely the interactions within the previous generation of Gaunts. Why is this? [18:32] <ProngsPatronus> the ul;timate powerlessness--and he loved power [18:32] <HeliumHead> i don't think that lv even was aware of that [18:32] <hotshot9913> just the basic you think your better than everyone else point of view [18:32] *** Amontillada has joined #lounge [18:33] <fawkes28> i think that you are right, HH [18:33] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> i think it's just an example of ANY interaction where there is a lack of empathy and a sense of control over another person [18:33] <HeliumHead> no, there is more an element of needing to prove it as well hotshot [18:33] <Aislinn> I think you are right, chocolate [18:33] <ProngsPatronus> I have to wonder whether psychopathy was also a family dynamic [18:33] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> *cough James cough* [18:34] <fawkes28> it does make you see how influenced people can be by their genetics [18:34] <hotshot9913> true HH but it's still that God-like ideology that got LV killed and ended the Gaunt line [18:35] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> makes you wonder how Marvolo Gaunt's parents even got together, right prongs? who would want to marry into that nasty family? [18:35] <HeliumHead> yes, but not everyone who thinks they are superior need to exert control over others [18:35] <SoonerGryffindor> I actually see this trend with both sides of the family [18:35] <fawkes28> He never had a family so even though he created one - he had to be the one in charge - he never really understood that concept of family [18:35] <Aislinn> it may have been arranged, chocolate [18:35] <ProngsPatronus> I think they were into marrying their cousins--who else would have them? [18:35] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> exactly - lack of love, from early on [18:35] <Aislinn> yes, sooner, his father was no prize either [18:36] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> okay guys, my friend's here to pick me up for my "i'm sure your cat's not dead now lets try to feel better" dinner [18:36] <chocolateisnotforbreakfast> smile have a good one! [18:36] <Aislinn> lol - bye chocolate [18:36] <fawkes28> marvolo was a poor leader of his family - very abusive - just as his grandson was but tenfold [18:36] <hotshot9913> have a nice dinner chocolate [18:36] <HeliumHead> enjoy [18:36] <Pleshette> Bye chocolate! [18:36] <ProngsPatronus> BYE CHOCOLATE--GOOD LUCK ON GETTING YOUR CAT BACK [18:37] <ProngsPatronus> ooops [18:37] <ProngsPatronus> capslock [18:37] <fawkes28> lol [18:37] <fawkes28> Why does Voldemort, who loves to collect items of magical power, not collect the Hallows? [18:37] *** chocolateisnotforbreakfast has quit [Bye] [18:37] <Aislinn> I don't think that voldemort knew of their existence [18:37] <hotshot9913> he didn't know about the hollows or else he would have gotten them [18:37] <blue4t> Does he know the story of the Hallows? He's not muggle-born, but he was raised in a muggle orphanage. [18:37] <SoonerGryffindor> I think the answer is that he did not know about them [18:37] <HeliumHead> because, like harry and hermione he was unaware of them [18:37] <Aislinn> they were from a wizarding children's tale - not something he would be exposed to, or even if he was, believe in [18:38] <fawkes28> Harry and Hermione never even learned it at Hogwarts [18:38] <fawkes28> so i do not think he would have as well [18:38] <blue4t> They don't have a class on children's tales at Hogwarts. [18:38] <fawkes28> even if he did later in life, i think he would have dismissed it as a children's story [18:38] <HeliumHead> they don't do literature [18:38] <hotshot9913> and he turned a hallow into a horcrux showing that he didnt know about the hallows [18:38] <ProngsPatronus> he may not have believed in it,. but it seems that a great many wizards did [18:38] <Aislinn> right, hotshot [18:38] <HeliumHead> i think that he wouldn [18:39] <ProngsPatronus> if he was so afraid of Death, why not investigate something that was supposed to give him mastery over it? [18:39] <blue4t> What hallow did he turn into a horcrux? [18:39] <fawkes28> he would have ignored it just like he did with the old magic [18:39] <hotshot9913> the ring [18:39] <blue4t> Oh, yeah, thanks. [18:39] <fawkes28> but he wouldnt have believe it, prongs [18:39] <Aislinn> who would have told him of a children's tale, though, prongs? [18:39] <SoonerGryffindor> Yet again we see where becaue LV underestimates something, he is ignorant [18:39] <Amontillada> I agree with fawkes--if Voldemort did hear bits of the tale from other pupils, he probably dismissed it as a "fairy tale," or whatever the counterpart Wizard expression would be. [18:39] <HeliumHead> 't have been exposed to the story because most of those who know it disregard it [18:39] <fawkes28> look at how quickly it was dismissed among harry and co. [18:39] <blue4t> Voldemort isn't as smart as people give him credit for. [18:39] <ProngsPatronus> Grindelwald didn't, and neither did DD [18:40] <SoonerGryffindor> its not so much a matter of being stupid, its a matter of underestimating a children's tale [18:40] <Aislinn> but he was not following Dd's path, Prongs [18:40] <ProngsPatronus> voldemort is intelligent, but he isn't very smart [18:40] <Aislinn> exactly sooner [18:40] <SoonerGryffindor> Grindewald and DD grew up in wizarding homes [18:40] <SoonerGryffindor> LV did not [18:40] <fawkes28> Voldemort was so set on creating horcruxes that he would not even consider anything else [18:40] <fawkes28> he chose his path and was not looking back [18:40] <ProngsPatronus> tunnel vision [18:40] <SoonerGryffindor> Ron makes it clear that these stories are commn in their world [18:41] <HeliumHead> he has his areas of expertise but disregards things outside of it [18:41] <fawkes28> Grindelwald and DD never set out on the path that voldemort did so their eyes were more open to other ideas [18:41] <Aislinn> even when he went after the Elder wand, it didn't seem to be due to a knowledge of the tale, just a rumour of an all powerful wand [18:41] <ProngsPatronus> a tool [18:41] <Aislinn> yes [18:41] <blue4t> Voldemort had to hear of the hallows in some way, because he knew about the Elder Wand. [18:41] <SoonerGryffindor> not really [18:42] <fawkes28> right - and at that point all he cared about was getting harry out of the way [18:42] <ProngsPatronus> I just find it strange that something as rumoured as the Hallows would pique his interest [18:42] <SoonerGryffindor> Xeno tells the trio that the wand was the most famous [18:42] <HeliumHead> hermione knew about the wand [18:42] <fawkes28> not necessarily, blue [18:42] <SoonerGryffindor> it would be possible to hear about the wand and not know about the hallows [18:42] <blue4t> that's true, it does have many names, so it's probably attached to many stories. [18:42] <fawkes28> the wand seemed to be the most famous of the lot but it didnt have to be connected to the story for him to hear about [18:42] <fawkes28> Does Voldemort believe in the “magic” of magic? Why? [18:43] <hotshot9913> LV knew about the Death Stick and the Wand of destiny. he just wanted an unbeatable wand I dont think he knew anything about the hallows [18:43] <SoonerGryffindor> and something like an undefeatable wand would be exactly what LV would look iinto after the graveyard scene in GoF [18:43] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think he does [18:43] <ProngsPatronus> ironic--he was the heir of the Stone, and chose the Wand [18:44] <SoonerGryffindor> when he was a kid and found out about being a wizard he did not experience the joy of it in a "magical" way. For him, it was confirmation that he was special [18:44] <fawkes28> i think his focus is mainly on power and how he can use it to help himself and destroy others [18:44] <ProngsPatronus> I don't think LV believes in the magic of magic, either [18:44] <Aislinn> yes, power seems to be much more his focus than a wonder of a magical gift. [18:44] <ProngsPatronus> he has a scientific view of magic, I think--it is a tool, but not wondrous [18:44] <SoonerGryffindor> he was already using it as a tool before he even knew what it was [18:44] <SoonerGryffindor> snap Prongs [18:45] <ProngsPatronus> :-) [18:45] <fawkes28> maybe in the very beginning like when dumbledore set the wardrobe on fire [18:46] <SoonerGryffindor> heheh, I loved it when DD did that [18:46] <hotshot9913> as far as weve read he never uses it for fun. we hear about lily playing on the swingset and harry playing quidditch but LV just goes around torturing people. It's all about power and what he can gain from using it. so yeah I say NO! [18:46] <fawkes28> his eyes were all wide and ready to have a go at it - that may have been when he believed in the magic of it all [18:47] <Aislinn> he was calculating when he saw dd using his wand [18:47] <Aislinn> such a different response than the one Harry had [18:47] <ProngsPatronus> I think he wanted very much to do the same "trick" [18:47] <ProngsPatronus> and do it better [18:47] <HeliumHead> I think that he merely saw magic as a means to an end [18:47] <Aislinn> yes, HH, exactly [18:47] <fawkes28> Why does Voldemort believe that Snape is the Master of the Elder Wand? What does this tell us about the character of the Dark Lord? [18:47] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, he never appreciated it [18:47] <SoonerGryffindor> ooh. Great question [18:47] <Pleshette> I've got to run...bye! [18:48] <SoonerGryffindor> bye Pleshette [18:48] <fawkes28> bye pleshette [18:48] <ProngsPatronus> bye, pleshette [18:48] *** Pleshette has quit [Bye] [18:48] <hotshot9913> because snape killed DD once again LV underestimating everything [18:48] <blue4t> He's narrow minded? [18:48] <Aislinn> He believed that snape possessed it because he killed Dd [18:48] <fawkes28> that he really believed that Snape was on his side [18:48] <Aislinn> killing would be the ultimate mastery over another [18:48] <blue4t> Then again, it is easy to believe that it was Snape's if you don't know that Draco disarmed Dumbledore. [18:48] <fawkes28> exactly what i was going to write, aislinn [18:48] <ProngsPatronus> perhaps , because he feared death so, he saw death as the only way to take the Elder Wand [18:48] <SoonerGryffindor> LV thinks tht the only way to naster something is to utterly defeat it. It never occured to him that somebody else was master because Snape is the one who killed DD [18:48] <HeliumHead> I think that it is because he believed that it only transfered upon the death of the previous owner [18:48] <fawkes28> he didnt think the disarming was significant enough [18:48] <Aislinn> right, blue, he didn't know about the disarming part [18:49] <ProngsPatronus> he would have known it from Draco [18:49] <fawkes28> again, his own arrogance got in the way that disarming was trivial magic [18:49] <Aislinn> yes, fawkes [18:49] <fawkes28> even though that was what worked for harry countless times [18:49] <ProngsPatronus> even against him [18:49] *** Kelazma has joined #lounge [18:49] <Aislinn> death to him would be necessary - hence, why he killed Snape to supposedly gain control of the wand [18:49] <hotshot9913> and if the wand was truly unbeatable he wouldn't have to worry about the disarming part. because you wouldn't be able to disarm someone with that wand if it truly was unbeatable [18:49] <HeliumHead> also most of the stories about it involve the previous owner being murdered [18:50] <SoonerGryffindor> Even if Snape had been the current master of the wand, I dont think it would have worked [18:50] <Aislinn> If he thought that he could gain control just by taking it, he probably wouldn't have killed Snape - he still considered him a useful tool [18:50] <Aislinn> just not as useful as the wand [18:50] <SoonerGryffindor> LV had Nagini kill snape.... that was not the same as defeating him [18:50] <fawkes28> However, know that I think about it, he should have realized that there were other ways to become the master of the wand because DD got it without killing Grindelwald [18:50] *** Kelazma has quit [Bye] [18:50] *** Kelazma has joined #lounge [18:50] <Aislinn> again, he can be quite stupid for an intelligent man [18:51] <ProngsPatronus> not a subtle man [18:51] <fawkes28> not much common sense it seems [18:51] <blue4t> yes, he can be, Aislinn. [18:51] <blue4t> He makes a lot of mistakes. [18:51] <fawkes28> Why does Voldemort kill Grindelwald, rather than making an alliance with him? [18:51] <HeliumHead> yes, fawkes, he should have, there were clues all along the trail he followed to find it [18:51] <SoonerGryffindor> because LV was greedy and wanted to be master of the wand, he killed Snape which led to Harry seeing the memories [18:51] <hotshot9913> Voldemort would never work with anyone... that would not make him #1 [18:51] <blue4t> It's easier to kill him than make an alliance? [18:51] <Kelazma> He makes mistakes because he's arrogant. I think his biggest errors come from that. [18:51] <fawkes28> there was no room for Grindelwald because he knew how powerful a wizard he was [18:52] <blue4t> I agree, Kelazma. [18:52] <HeliumHead> because, Grindenwald was defying him [18:52] <Kelazma> He doesn't believe anyone is smarter than he is [18:52] <fawkes28> he wouldnt want Grindelwald to outshine him or even take his life [18:52] <Aislinn> he sees no use for him, and lashed out in frustration [18:52] <ProngsPatronus> he makes the time to get other allies, though [18:52] <fawkes28> if he feared DD, then he most certainly would hold some fear with grindelwald on the loose [18:52] <ProngsPatronus> the giants, the werewolves [18:52] <blue4t> He doesn't see anyone as his equal. I could see that he thinks making an alliance would be making Grindelwald or anyone his equal. [18:52] <Kelazma> So there is no possible way anyone could be his partner...or make an alliance. Especially someone who was once feared. "The Dark Wizard Grindelwald" [18:52] <Aislinn> Grindelwald didn't seem inclined to be an ally though [18:53] <HeliumHead> agreed Aislinn [18:53] <hotshot9913> but are they allies or pawns in his game prongs [18:53] <ProngsPatronus> I think LV was pressed for time [18:53] <Kelazma> LV would see that as a step back. [18:53] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Grindewald taunting LV may have had something to do with it laugh [18:53] <fawkes28> lol [18:53] <hotshot9913> i loved that [18:53] <Kelazma> Well Grindelwald also knew the wand was not undefeatable. [18:53] <HeliumHead> voldemort doesn't have allies, he has servants [18:54] <fawkes28> How would you describe Voldemort's relationship with Albus Dumbledore? [18:54] <Kelazma> Just as the stone didn't bring people back from the dead...just as the invisibilty cloak wasn't inpenetrable [18:54] <Aislinn> I think he never quite forgot the feeling of intimidation he felt when he saw the wardrobe light on fire. [18:54] <Kelazma> I think through all the years that Voldemort respected Dumbledore. [18:54] <hotshot9913> the one man he truly feared... oops should have been more scared of harry [18:54] <SoonerGryffindor> I agree Aislinn [18:54] <ProngsPatronus> I think he hated DD so much he aped him [18:55] <blue4t> Good one, hotshot. [18:55] <SoonerGryffindor> because DD is the one who saw LV at his most vulnerable, he never forgave him for that [18:55] <fawkes28> He learned to keep his mouth closed as well as his true feelings hidden [18:55] <Aislinn> I think a lot of his actions were designed to prove that he was superior to Dumbledore [18:55] <fawkes28> what he told DD was probably the most emotion he has ever revealed to any one person [18:55] <Aislinn> kind of like the teen that rebels to "impress" the parent [18:55] <Kelazma> That's why he had someone else kill him. He was too chicken, and he knew that Dumbledore could bore right into his head just like when he was a little kid. [18:55] <ProngsPatronus> and that his POV was superior, too [18:55] <blue4t> I do think that maybe at one point in his life he was in awe of Dumbledore, although I'm not sure that's the right term, so he probably set out to be better than him. [18:55] <HeliumHead> i think that the reason that Voldemort feared Dumbledore was because he was never able to charm him [18:56] <HeliumHead> and knew that he wasn't capable of scaring him [18:56] <SoonerGryffindor> I think he recognized the one person who was more talented than he would ever be also [18:56] <Kelazma> That's also true, HeliumHead. I think Dumbledore always saw him as he was.... [18:56] <fawkes28> exactly, kel [18:56] <Kelazma> a power-hungry, mean little kid...who never got over that. [18:56] <ProngsPatronus> I think that DD always saw him as Tom [18:56] <ProngsPatronus> in the Muggle orphanage [18:56] <Kelazma> Dumbledore saw him at his worst. [18:56] <ProngsPatronus> and that calling him Tom reminded LV of that, too [18:57] <SoonerGryffindor> I also think it was someone recognizing their equal [18:57] <Kelazma> I think the hiring of Hagrid solidified to Voldemort that he didn't fool him at all. [18:57] <ProngsPatronus> yes--in a strange way, they were equals [18:57] <SoonerGryffindor> he was so used to being superior, that he did not like running into someone who was above him in intelligence and power [18:57] <fawkes28> oh, i like that point, kel [18:57] <HeliumHead> agreed Kelazma [18:57] <Aislinn> Dumbledore would not allow Voldy to use his tactics of intimidation on him - calling him by his name, both Tom and voldemort [18:57] <Kelazma> But Dumbledore was ALWAYS above him. [18:57] <Kelazma> He may have just been frustrated that he'd never be better. [18:57] <SoonerGryffindor> right, and he hated that [18:58] <hotshot9913> Agree compleatly Sooner [18:58] <Kelazma> Probably because good deeds seem to do more for the soul than bad deeds.....and splitting your soul doesn't help. [18:58] <ProngsPatronus> but I also think that, in some way, LV hungered for his approval [18:58] <fawkes28> but he did keep his distance after that [18:58] <HeliumHead> except that voldemort couldn't acknowledge that DD was his superior [18:58] <Kelazma> Kind of how Snape wanted Lily's approval for...well...different reasons. But it's the same flaw. [18:58] <ProngsPatronus> yes [18:58] <ProngsPatronus> something like that [18:59] <fawkes28> Why did Voldemort accede to the request of Snape, and offer Lily her life? [18:59] <Kelazma> Striving for the approval of others doesn't do anything for your own feelings of self worth. [18:59] <Kelazma> Because it got Snape to shut up about it. [18:59] <ProngsPatronus> LV was always in catch-up mode with DD [18:59] <Aislinn> I think it was a little carrot for Snape [18:59] <fawkes28> lol [18:59] <HeliumHead> tossing a bone to a loyal dog [18:59] <Kelazma> And what was a stupid girl. for anything else. [18:59] <fawkes28> I think because Voldemort valued the information that Snape gave him [18:59] <Kelazma> Harry would be dead, and it's not like she could reconcieve him. So it wouldn't matter [18:59] <ProngsPatronus> I really son't understand this one [19:00] <fawkes28> If Snape wasnt the one who had hear it, then he wouldnt have been given the option [19:00] <Kelazma> very true. [19:00] <SoonerGryffindor> this is the most confusing thing of all to me [19:00] <blue4t> I don't think Voldemort cared about her since it was her son he was after, so her living probably didn't bother him, even though she was a muggle-born. [19:00] <Aislinn> I think that Snape had pleased him, with his actions as couble agent, and he viewed Lily as a harmless reward [19:00] <ProngsPatronus> still, it is unusual for LV to "give" anything [19:00] <SoonerGryffindor> this is the reason I never fully thought Snape/Lily could happen [19:00] <Aislinn> but not enough to try very hard to keep the reward alive [19:00] <hotshot9913> but still she was a muggle. LV would have killed her withought thinking twice. he didnt care what snape felt [19:00] <Kelazma> And besides, what's a little mudblood between friends? [19:00] <fawkes28> sparing Lily didnt make any difference to voldemort - he wanted Harry especially [19:00] <Aislinn> oh, I think he had to use a certain amount of carrot and stick to keep people around [19:01] <Aislinn> not solely fear [19:01] <fawkes28> I am sure that Snape quickly threw James under the rug as well [19:01] <HeliumHead> no, he needs to reward as well as punish [19:01] <fawkes28> yes, HH [19:01] <Aislinn> exactly HH [19:01] <Kelazma> oh man....lily on a stick...to dangle in front of Snape. [19:01] <Kelazma> that's a baaaad mental image [19:01] <Aislinn> yes it is! [19:01] <ProngsPatronus> yes--but, as we see with Wormtail, his gifts always come with a price for the recipient [19:01] <SoonerGryffindor> too bad he didnt take that more seriously [19:01] <fawkes28> it would give the others incentives too - if you do well, your master will reward you - they all craved his praise [19:01] <hotshot9913> good one prongs [19:02] <Kelazma> Well true. At the first sign of wavering....your own hand kills you...definitly not a job perk. [19:02] <ProngsPatronus> I wonder what Snape's price for lily would have been... [19:02] <Kelazma> But I like that Wormtail died and it meant nothing. [19:02] <Kelazma> Oh, I'm sure Lily would have left on the first train to "as far away as she could get" [19:02] <Kelazma> to be apart from Snape. [19:02] <SoonerGryffindor> I think LV was wiling to give Lily over with no strings which is why it made no difference to him if she died [19:03] *** ginginkat has joined #lounge [19:03] <HeliumHead> i don't know that she'd have the choice to leave [19:03] <Kelazma> I don't think Snape could have kept her prisoner. [19:03] <hotshot9913> what was snape going to do force feed her love potion... yeah that worked out well last time [19:03] <ProngsPatronus> no, I think Snape would have wound up killing Lily [19:03] <HeliumHead> no, but lv could imperius her [19:03] <Kelazma> no way. [19:03] <Kelazma> I don't think Snape would go for that either. [19:04] <Kelazma> Snape longed for Lilys approval...for love...for caring. [19:04] <blue4t> Snape loves Lily more than I think he loves himself, if he even loves himself. [19:04] <ProngsPatronus> ily would have been implacable [19:04] <blue4t> No way would he kill her. [19:04] <Kelazma> giving her a potion or putting her under a curse would negate all of that. [19:04] <HeliumHead> possibly, lv would have kept her prisoner [19:04] <Kelazma> He doesn't generally take prisoners, does he? [19:04] <HeliumHead> and threatened snape over her safety [19:04] <blue4t> Although, Voldemort could have imperused Snape to kill Lily. [19:04] <fawkes28> Severus Snape: Erstwhile Potions Master, double-agent, DADA teacher, and successor to Dumbledore as Headmaster, Snape has worn many hats throughout this series. Enigmatic, sarcastic, and cruel, his true motivations are still a hot topic of debate. [19:04] <blue4t> But, as we see, he didn't have to do that. [19:04] <ProngsPatronus> and doesn't treat them very well when he does [19:05] <Kelazma> He only takes prisioners to use their loved ones...or use their information and he kills them when he's done. [19:05] <Kelazma> Snape knows that too. [19:05] <hotshot9913> Snape is a git, he only helped Harry because he felt bad over getting Lily killed. [19:05] <blue4t> He's a greasy git. [19:05] <Kelazma> So I imagine there must have been a long debate with Voldemort because Snape knows his tactics. [19:06] <HeliumHead> agreed hotshot [19:06] <fawkes28> What is the most striking characteristic of Snape in the Deathly Hallows? [19:06] <HeliumHead> i think that at the time snape was a bit naive [19:06] <Kelazma> His ability to block out Lord Voldemort [19:06] <Kelazma> from his mind, that is. [19:06] <SoonerGryffindor> self-sacrificing [19:06] <Aislinn> tragic choices [19:07] <Amontillada> It bothers me that some readers seem to assume that Snape should be judged by the same expectations as Harry, even though Snape is an adult (and teacher, hence in a superior position) while Harry is a boy. [19:07] <Kelazma> With all the things that were going on, at EVERY moment...Snape had to have his mind blocked. Used to be at Hogwarts before Dumbledore died he was free to let his mind wander. [19:07] <SoonerGryffindor> also the bravest man that Harry ever knew [19:07] <Kelazma> With so many Death Eaters roaming the place, he had to be on guard at almost ever moment. [19:07] <fawkes28> i think was is so intriguing is how well he can control his emotions except for when he is near harry [19:07] <Kelazma> That's what makes him brave....his choices LOL [19:07] <Kelazma> His choice to take the high road when he didn't have to. [19:07] <Kelazma> and all for a dead woman [19:08] <Aislinn> high road? [19:08] <Kelazma> he could have just been a death eater [19:08] <HeliumHead> revenge is not the high road [19:08] <Aislinn> the road he travelled was not the high road [19:08] <Kelazma> who would have known? [19:08] <Kelazma> not the highest road LOL [19:08] <fawkes28> definitely no high road [19:08] <SoonerGryffindor> he sacrificed much to see that Harry succeeded [19:08] <Kelazma> but higher than he needed to. [19:08] <blue4t> Did he want Harry to succeed? [19:08] <SoonerGryffindor> yes [19:08] <SoonerGryffindor> beacuse he wanted LV to lose [19:08] <hotshot9913> yeah succeed in dying [19:09] <SoonerGryffindor> DD makes that clear to snape [19:09] <blue4t> Yes, he wanted Voldemort to lose, but did he want Harry to succeed? [19:09] <Kelazma> He really could have just been a death eater, no mind to harry. He wanted Harry to live to kill Voldemort. [19:09] <Aislinn> yes, he wanted to revenge Lily [19:09] <fawkes28> however, he had a choice for 5 or 6 years before Lily died and he did not take the high road then [19:09] <fawkes28> he took the lowest road their was [19:09] <Kelazma> I think he felt like he needed to set things right. [19:09] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape is a tragic figure [19:09] <Kelazma> it was his fault that Harry was in that position in the first place. [19:09] <SoonerGryffindor> he made bad choices in his youth that haunted him forever [19:09] <ProngsPatronus> the tragedy is of his own making, though [19:09] <blue4t> I don't see how he's such a tragic figure when everything he did was his own choice. [19:09] <SoonerGryffindor> think of the age that he was [19:09] <Kelazma> Fawkes - he was a teenager though. [19:09] <Aislinn> he didn't care about the cause of good, so much, just his personal agenda of trying to atone for his contribution to Lily's death [19:09] <SoonerGryffindor> DD was also a tragic figure [19:10] <HeliumHead> blue, that is the nature of tragedy [19:10] <SoonerGryffindor> look what he did before he was 18 [19:10] <Kelazma> Do you know a lot of teenagers that can do exactly the opposite of their peers? [19:10] <fawkes28> What is it about Lily that Snape loves? [19:10] <Aislinn> I agree with you blue [19:10] <ProngsPatronus> the real tragedy is that his self-absorption was responsible for the deaths of James and Lily--and who knows who else [19:10] <Kelazma> I think being in slytherin...and being given approval by older students meant a lot to him. [19:10] <Aislinn> all of the things that everyone who knew Lily loved [19:10] <blue4t> True, but I'm more just comparing him to the other characters that didn't get to choose their fate. [19:10] <fawkes28> i havent ffigured this one out yet eyebrow [19:10] <ProngsPatronus> I think he loved her innocence and faith in him [19:10] <Kelazma> We saw in his memories that he didn't have the approval of his father....so the approval of Voldemort must have meant a lot to him as a young teen. [19:11] <ProngsPatronus> and her thirst for magic [19:11] <hotshot9913> i think she was the first person who was nice to him. [19:11] <Kelazma> possibly her facination with magic? [19:11] <Kelazma> she was in awe of things he did? maybe? [19:11] <fawkes28> probably at first [19:11] <Kelazma> He'd probably never had someone look at him and go "wow...that was cool" [19:11] <fawkes28> and she was an overall nice person too [19:11] <hotshot9913> she wanted to know about magic, and he could show her. so that made him feel good [19:12] <fawkes28> and they lived by each other so that forged a connection - they were able to hang out in the summers and could relate to each other [19:12] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that snape and lily was love at first sight for snape [19:12] <fawkes28> think of all the times harry wished he could talk to someone in the wizarding world [19:12] <fawkes28> in the summer [19:12] <Kelazma> well if all the girls you were around....in a pureblood society were crazy spazes like Bellatrix....lol I'd fall for Lily too [19:12] <fawkes28> Why is Lily's love not enough for Snape? What is it about the Dark Arts that keeps calling Snape to it? [19:13] <Aislinn> that is the huge tragedy of this character [19:13] <ProngsPatronus> I agree [19:13] <SoonerGryffindor> I think a lot of it had to do with his youth [19:13] <Aislinn> He chose the Dark Arts over Lily, in spite of his obsession [19:13] <SoonerGryffindor> he came from a horrible home [19:13] <ProngsPatronus> he picked the Dark Arts over Lily [19:13] <Aislinn> so did Harry [19:13] <ProngsPatronus> snap! [19:13] <SoonerGryffindor> who knows what poison he was taught as a youngster [19:13] <fawkes28> he couldnt get over his need for power [19:13] <Aislinn> so did Sirius [19:13] <blue4t> Through Snape I get the feeling that the Dark Arts is the wizarding world's equivalent of being gothic. [19:13] <ProngsPatronus> I know that Harry got a lot of poison at the Dursleys [19:13] <fawkes28> even Lily wasnt enough which i why i do not believe that he truly loved her [19:13] <SoonerGryffindor> but harry came from loving parents [19:14] <Aislinn> and Sirius? [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape had this huge desire to belong [19:14] <hotshot9913> he felt like he was more at home with the death eaters, they were a family to him. he just wanted lily to be a DE too [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> to be part of something bigger [19:14] <Amontillada> The Dark Arts (as he learned about them through his housemates) seemed to offer a route to power in the Wizarding World that he had grown up without [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> as part of the gang of DE's, he finally was something special [19:14] <Aislinn> right - so he chose that over his feelings for and from his friend [19:14] <ProngsPatronus> Snape knew about the Dark Arts before he came to Hogwarts [19:14] <Aislinn> the person he was supposed to love so much [19:14] <fawkes28> if he cared as much about her as he said then he would have listened to her - there are no excuses for that [19:15] <SoonerGryffindor> I thnk Snape realized that Lily was never truly his [19:15] <ProngsPatronus> so, at the same time he "loved" lily, he was honing a soul-killing discipline [19:15] <Aislinn> she could have been [19:15] <fawkes28> no, she hated James, Sooner [19:15] <Aislinn> If he had made differernt choices [19:15] <Amontillada> He was getting "messages" in Slytherin that all Muggles were inferior, and he made an exception in his mind for Lily. [19:15] <SoonerGryffindor> had they been together, it might have been different for him, but he could not get over finally having friends [19:15] <fawkes28> Snape had a chance but blew it when he chose his DE friends over her [19:15] <Aislinn> she hung in there for him for 5 years, despite his ongoing choices [19:15] <SoonerGryffindor> I am not saying that Lily belonged to anybody at that point, but she certainly wasnt his [19:15] <fawkes28> yes, she gave him plenty of chances [19:15] <Aislinn> they were still friends at school sooner [19:16] <SoonerGryffindor> yes [19:16] <ProngsPatronus> she was more his than anyone else's [19:16] <Aislinn> they had a conversatiion about being best friends, and that was in their 4th or 5th year [19:16] <blue4t> Didn't they stop being friends after his (or what it her) fifth year? [19:16] <blue4t> Are they in the same year? [19:16] <Aislinn> so he was 16 by then [19:17] <SoonerGryffindor> I liken this to young kids who enter into gangs and then cant find a way out of them [19:17] <fawkes28> then he had about 5 or 6 years before she died to come back to her - but he didnt [19:17] <Aislinn> but he had the connection to Lily that he could have used to pull him out [19:17] <Aislinn> but he chose not to [19:17] <ProngsPatronus> see, that just it, to me [19:17] <SoonerGryffindor> there is more to it than that [19:17] <ProngsPatronus> you can get out of a gang [19:17] <SoonerGryffindor> can you? [19:17] <Aislinn> sure you can [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> how did Regulus do? [19:18] <ProngsPatronus> but he loved the Dark Arts--he was a true afficonado [19:18] <Aislinn> Regulus was killed by the potion in the cave, not the gang [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> who was it that said you just cant stop being a DE? [19:18] <fawkes28> DD would have protected him if he went to him [19:18] <Aislinn> Snape wasn't a death eater at 16 [19:18] <hotshot9913> its like quitting smoking... you really have to want to do it. and snape didnt really want to get out of the DE's they finally made him feel like he had a home [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> like DD protected James and Lily? [19:18] <Aislinn> so people should choose evil sooner? [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> no [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> just that its not always black and white [19:19] <Aislinn> it's hard to leave, so I guess I should stay? [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> what does that do for redemption, then [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> of course it is hard [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> I think we see where snape redeemed himself in the end [19:19] <ProngsPatronus> the consequences are always hard [19:19] <fawkes28> Why the doe? Was that really Lily's Patronus, or was it how he saw her? [19:19] <hotshot9913> thats the point snape just didnt have the kahones [19:19] <Aislinn> I think you are right, hotshot [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> yes [19:20] <blue4t> It was Lily's patronus. James's was a stag and Lily's became a doe once she fell in love with him. [19:20] <Aislinn> I think it probably was Lily's Patronus [19:20] <SoonerGryffindor> it had to be her patronus [19:20] <fawkes28> yes, i agree [19:20] <SoonerGryffindor> I think its cool that was his patronus after she died [19:20] <ProngsPatronus> DD recognised it immediately [19:20] <hotshot9913> but snape said "Always" so wouldn't that make lilys patronus always a Doe? [19:21] <SoonerGryffindor> well, they dont even learn that till 6th year [19:21] <blue4t> It could've always been a doe, but I don't think that it has to be. [19:21] <Aislinn> I think he meant that everything he did was always for her [19:21] <SoonerGryffindor> maybe she never made one till she started going out with James [19:21] <ProngsPatronus> and some can't do it even after that [19:21] <hotshot9913> true [19:21] <blue4t> His patronus can't change to hers until she dies. Isn't it true that no two living people can have the same patronus? [19:21] <ProngsPatronus> I have a feeling that it may have been how he saw her [19:21] <Aislinn> yes, a corporeal patronus is supposed to be hard. [19:21] <Aislinn> not everyone can make one [19:22] <ProngsPatronus> great point, blue [19:22] <fawkes28> Snape shows no emotion as Charity Burbage is murdered. Do you think he cared about her demise? [19:22] <SoonerGryffindor> he was powerlss to do anything about it [19:22] <blue4t> Maybe when her patronus changed to the doe, Snape's patronus changed to her old one. [19:22] <Aislinn> I think he probably did [19:22] <fawkes28> i think at this point he was so immune to seeing deaths [19:22] <Aislinn> but wasn't about to blow his cover [19:22] <Amontillada> I think that by that time, Snape had stuffed all his emotions deep down, especially when he couldn't act on them [19:22] <SoonerGryffindor> he mentions with much bitterness to DD that he only has watched those die he could not help [19:22] <blue4t> He couldn't show emotion. If he wanted, it was probably really hard for him not to. [19:23] <hotshot9913> if Snape can block LV out of his mind. I have no doubt that he can block his mind from what is happening. I do think he felt bad, but he couldn't let it show, or he'd be next. [19:23] <SoonerGryffindor> I bet on the inside he was very troubled by it [19:23] <Amontillada> SoonerGryffindor is quite right, Snape couldn't have saved Charity without exposing himself as an anti-LV wizard and failing at his longterm mission [19:23] <Aislinn> yes, hotshot - he was usually a master at compartmentalizing [19:23] <Aislinn> except where the Marauders were concerned [19:24] <ProngsPatronus> all that may be true [19:24] <SoonerGryffindor> yeah, stepping in to do anything to help charity would have undone 16 years worth of work [19:24] <ProngsPatronus> but I still do not think he cared much for her [19:24] <SoonerGryffindor> there is no information to know that [19:24] <fawkes28> me either, prongs [19:24] <ProngsPatronus> no--it is just my opinion [19:24] <fawkes28> JKR said that Snape hated Harry until the day the Potions Master died. Why? [19:24] <ProngsPatronus> :-) [19:24] <Amontillada> He probably didn't feel a great deal for her, Prongs, I agree [19:24] <blue4t> Harry was a product of Lily and James. [19:25] <SoonerGryffindor> becayse Harry represented everything Snape failed at [19:25] <blue4t> Harry was the reason Lily died. [19:25] <fawkes28> He could never get past how much Harry looked like James [19:25] <HeliumHead> because other than his eyes, he looked like james [19:25] <hotshot9913> harry reminded him of the man he hated the most, and harry was the one LV was trying to kill not Lily and snape is once again just a git [19:25] <fawkes28> despite Harry having Lily's eyes - he couldnt get past his teenage rilvary [19:26] <Aislinn> or see Harry for the parts of him that were SO like him Mum [19:26] <HeliumHead> agreed Aislinn [19:26] <ProngsPatronus> maybe harry reminded him of the man who 'won' [19:26] <Aislinn> he never really saw Harry at all [19:26] <blue4t> He couldn't get past the parts that were so like James. [19:26] <Amontillada> It was only on that day that Snape's vision of Harry as Lily's son finally became larger than his mental image of Harry as miniature James [19:26] <fawkes28> no matter how nice and polite harry was all snape could see was james' arrogance [19:26] <Aislinn> he only saw his own feelings about what had happened to his mother [19:27] <fawkes28> all the other teacher's loved him as we saw from the memory but snape was looking for reasons to hate him [19:27] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that Snape needed to hate him, if that makes any sense [19:27] <ProngsPatronus> oh, I so agree, Sooner [19:27] <SoonerGryffindor> he was mean to him so he would not be vulnerable to liking him [19:27] <Aislinn> I don't think he saw that even when he was dying, Amontillada - he just wanted to look at Lily's eyes [19:27] <Kelazma> Eh...I think it was all guilt. Harry grew up as an orphan with no family, no friends, no wizarding knowledge. Snape took his parents, his family from him. Snape knew his parents were generally good people. [19:27] *** Midnight has joined #lounge [19:27] <hotshot9913> it would make things easier [19:27] <Aislinn> not think about the connection to Lily [19:27] <Kelazma> He stole "knowing Lily" from Harry. [19:28] <fawkes28> Why did Snape allow the Carrows free run of Hogwarts, if he really wanted to spare the students? [19:28] *** Midnight has quit [Bye] [19:28] <SoonerGryffindor> he had no choice [19:28] <Aislinn> I disagree [19:28] <SoonerGryffindor> again, this was an LV deicsion [19:28] <Kelazma> Eh, i don't think he chose the Carrows. [19:28] <hotshot9913> because if he didn't LV would know something was up [19:28] <Aislinn> He could have curbed them a bit. [19:28] <ProngsPatronus> i don't think there was any chance of snape liking harry--but I also think he needed to keep his guilt about lily fresh [19:28] <Kelazma> But it's possible he knew the Carrows were pretty stupid. [19:28] <SoonerGryffindor> it would have been suspicious [19:28] <fawkes28> now, I will have to give him credit for letting Neville, Luna, and Ginny serve detention with Hagrid [19:28] <blue4t> When Snape was able to step in without showing his true allegiance he did. [19:28] <SoonerGryffindor> I think he probably curbed a lot more than we are aware of [19:29] <Aislinn> He was head of the school - voldy wasn't even around for a lot of the year, as he was hunting the Elder wand [19:29] <Kelazma> LOL...and the portraits would have told on him hah [19:29] <hotshot9913> they would have eventually asked questions. and he did take it easy on the students he sent Ginny to the Forest as punishment... yeah like thats hard [19:29] <SoonerGryffindor> since we never saw the year at Hogwarts, we really haev no way of knowing what did and did not happen [19:29] <HeliumHead> But who knew when he would be around [19:29] <Aislinn> Neville was a mess when Harry arrived, as were some of the other kids [19:29] <SoonerGryffindor> well, Neville was head of the resistance [19:29] <Kelazma> A mess....but not dead. [19:29] <blue4t> That's because he's pure-blood. [19:29] <Aislinn> kids were using Crucio on each other. [19:30] <hotshot9913> he couldn't let them get away with everything [19:30] <fawkes28> i am sure there were many times when Snape turned his face away from what the Carrows were really do - especially with a student like Neville whom he hated so much [19:30] <SoonerGryffindor> DD was willing to sacrifice everyone for harry to succeed. Snape had to make that same decision [19:30] <Aislinn> at the Carrows insistence [19:30] <hotshot9913> crucio was under the carrows. snape couldnt tell them to stop then theyd really be curious [19:30] <fawkes28> DD would never have let the Carrows in his school [19:30] <Aislinn> snape could have used something about pure blood kids, and the need to mollify the parents [19:30] <SoonerGryffindor> that is not the point [19:30] <Kelazma> but he let Snape in his school. lol he wasn't the nicest guy around. [19:30] <SoonerGryffindor> everything had to go according to the plan [19:30] <HeliumHead> i think that he understood that the more they cracked down the more rebellion there would be [19:31] <SoonerGryffindor> yes [19:31] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that Snape was loving the rebellion [19:31] <Aislinn> The plan was not to torture kids [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> they didn't need a reason to rebel [19:31] <Aislinn> the plan was to control them [19:31] <SoonerGryffindor> dont you know he got a laugh out of the stuff neville was doing? [19:31] <ProngsPatronus> they already hated snape and LV [19:31] <Aislinn> no [19:31] <SoonerGryffindor> I think he did [19:31] <HeliumHead> but it didn't control them [19:31] <fawkes28> Do you think that Snape regretted Dumbledore's death? [19:31] <Aislinn> I don't think snape got a laugh out of anything [19:31] <blue4t> He might've been shocked that Neville was doing it. [19:32] <SoonerGryffindor> I thikn Snape was mad about it [19:32] <HeliumHead> yes, i think that he did [19:32] <SoonerGryffindor> we see from chapter 33 tht Snape was not happy about being the one asked to kill him [19:32] <Aislinn> I think he was mad to be put in that position, yes. [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> I think he hated DD for asking him to do it, personally [19:32] <Kelazma> the ring pretty much took care of that. [19:32] <Kelazma> he was going to die. [19:32] <SoonerGryffindor> DD asking Snape to kill him was sealing both of their fates [19:32] <ProngsPatronus> and I am noty pleased with DD about it, either [19:32] <hotshot9913> obviously. no matter if it was under orders or not he still killed DD and he has to live with that, plus the man he always relied on for the awnsers was gone. now he had to figure stuff out on his own [19:33] <fawkes28> he was still probably mad that DD messed up and put on the ring [19:33] <blue4t> With Dumbledore dead, Snape has to do all this by himself, no one is fully aware that Snape is defying Voldemort. [19:33] <Kelazma> I think that it helped solidify to Voldemort that Snape was on his side....lol - idiot [19:33] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape lost his mentor as well [19:33] <Aislinn> yes, blue, it truly leaves him alone [19:33] *** ginginkat has quit [Bye] [19:33] <Aislinn> Dumbledore was the only person who knew the truth about snape [19:33] <fawkes28> i think he was more annoyed with DD's careless attitude toward dying then anything else because i think in some ways snape relied on Dumledore to protect him [19:33] <HeliumHead> at snapes request [19:34] <blue4t> With Dumbledore there, Snape probably felt easier about their plan, but with him gone, it was all on his shoulders. I don't think he liked it. [19:34] <SoonerGryffindor> I cannot even imagine the amount of self-sacrifice that had to take to kill the only man who trusted you [19:34] <Kelazma> it has been f un, but I must tend to housework. <3's ttys! [19:34] *** Kelazma has quit [Bye] [19:34] *** jaimedanser has joined #lounge [19:34] <jaimedanser> Hello [19:34] <Aislinn> hi jaime [19:34] <HeliumHead> hi there [19:34] <fawkes28> Do you think that Snape was redeemed in the final book? [19:34] <hotshot9913> he was compleatly by himself after killing DD cause no one else knew what side he was on [19:35] <jaimedanser> i think snape was redeemed in the final book [19:35] <jaimedanser> but that's just me [19:35] <Aislinn> I think that he partially redeemed himself [19:35] <blue4t> I don't think he was. He was understood, but redeemed? [19:35] <HeliumHead> i remain unsure [19:35] <SoonerGryffindor> yes [19:35] <hotshot9913> good one blue I agree [19:35] <fawkes28> i guess he did in a way but in some ways he can never redeem himself [19:35] <jaimedanser> fawkes--yep [19:35] <jaimedanser> I agree biggrin [19:36] <Aislinn> he can't now that he's dead, no. [19:36] <SoonerGryffindor> Jo says the only one beyond redepmtion was LV [19:36] <HeliumHead> yes fawkes [19:36] <SoonerGryffindor> so since Snape is dead, i would say that he did redeem himself [19:36] <Aislinn> but that doesn't mean that everyone else was [19:36] <Aislinn> just that everyone had a chance at it [19:36] <SoonerGryffindor> but I actually think that he redeemed himself the moment he agreed all those years ago to protect hary [19:36] <Aislinn> crabbe is dead too, but he is certainly not redeemed [19:36] <SoonerGryffindor> right [19:36] <SoonerGryffindor> but Snape is [19:37] <fawkes28> i guess he did in the larger sense of things since he provided harry with what he needed [19:37] <Aislinn> contributing to lily's death is not the only thing for which he needs redemption [19:37] <jaimedanser> Good point, Aislinn! [19:37] <SoonerGryffindor> but I think it happened befor book 7. we just didnt find out about it until book 7. Does that make sense? [19:37] <fawkes28> however, for all those times he treated students horribly, he never made up for that [19:37] <ProngsPatronus> I think that, in Harry's eyes, he redeemed himself with his continuing love for Lily [19:37] <Aislinn> so making that choice when he did does not mean he redeemed himself at that point. [19:37] <fawkes28> never said i was sorry to harry [19:37] <jaimedanser> Sooner--yes it does, ad I agree [19:37] <jaimedanser> *and [19:38] <Aislinn> yes, Prongs, because his parents were such a powerful symbol of love for harry [19:38] <Amontillada> I think Snape redeemed himself by following through on his commitment and actually working to protect Harry [19:38] <fawkes28> What do you think of the manner of Snape's death? [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> I stuffed dirt and rocks in a kids face when I was 5 years old and never apologized. Do I still need to be redeemed for that? [19:38] <Aislinn> anyone who loved them too would be forgiven by him [19:38] <Aislinn> that is the kind of person Harry is [19:38] <hotshot9913> your mean sooner [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:38] <hotshot9913> and yes.... smile [19:38] <fawkes28> Snape was constantly horrible though, sooner - there is a big difference [19:38] <Aislinn> depends on how you've lived the rest of your life sooner [19:38] <Aislinn> do you still do that? [19:38] <Aislinn> LOL [19:38] <SoonerGryffindor> hehehe [19:39] <SoonerGryffindor> come see me and you will find out [19:39] <fawkes28> snape's death was definitely worse than receiving an AK [19:39] <fawkes28> i have - lol [19:39] * Aislinn is not sure she should get within sooner's reach [19:39] <Amontillada> But you were a 5-year-old child, Sooner, and didn't have the judgment and self-control that adults should have (and I hope you do now) [19:39] <fawkes28> lol [19:39] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:39] <Aislinn> excellent point, Amontillada [19:39] <SoonerGryffindor> but the point is the same [19:39] <hotshot9913> i know dirts one thing... but rocks thats just low [19:39] <fawkes28> sometime's she does [19:39] <Aislinn> and you hopefully treat people better than that now [19:39] <SoonerGryffindor> we all have done things that we have not atoned for [19:40] <Aislinn> snape didn't learn that lesson [19:40] <SoonerGryffindor> I think he did [19:40] <ProngsPatronus> atonement is not the same as redemption [19:40] <Amontillada> Snape learned that lesson eventually, but very, very late [19:40] <blue4t> Yes [19:40] <Aislinn> and didn't have a chance to change as a result, Amontillada [19:40] <Aislinn> as he died [19:40] <SoonerGryffindor> he was never going to change character, but I think that overall, I would say he is redeemed [19:40] <Amontillada> Right, Aislinn [19:41] <blue4t> Snape never changed. He protected Harry just so Harry could defeat Voldemort, but he was still mean. He was a bully. [19:41] <Aislinn> how people live their lives, every day, is what shows me who they are. [19:41] <Aislinn> not just the grand gestures [19:41] <SoonerGryffindor> I never said he was nice [19:41] <fawkes28> Son of Lily and James Potter, he has inherited his father's face and his mother's eyes. Gifted with an extraordinary ability to love, he is fated by a Prophecy to rid the Wizarding World of the Dark Lord. [19:41] <SoonerGryffindor> but I do think he was redeemed [19:41] <fawkes28> What surprised you most about Harry in this last book? Did he live up to your expectations of him? [19:42] <Aislinn> depends on your view of redemption [19:42] <Aislinn> yes he did. [19:42] <Aislinn> His was a very realistic struggle with faith and choice, and he acquitted himself magnificently [19:42] <hotshot9913> the 2 out of 3 Unforgivable curses I thought he'd do one, but two. But Harry still rocks smile [19:42] <blue4t> I'm not really sure what my expectations were of Harry. I expected him to go after the Horcruxes and at least try to defeat Voldemort and he did that, so I guess I would say yes. [19:42] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont really know that I had any new expectations of him. He stayed in character, which is all you could ask for [19:42] <jaimedanser> Hmm...Harry didnt' actually really surprise me [19:43] <fawkes28> yes, harry definitely met my expectations [19:43] <jaimedanser> He stayed himself, made some big decisions, and decided to sacrifice himself for his friends [19:43] <Amontillada> The fact that he used Crucio surprised me, but looking back I see that as an outlet of all the tension and urge to fight back that had been building up in him [19:43] <blue4t> I never thought about him doing an unforgivable, but it didn't surprise me when he did them. [19:43] <jaimedanser> I expected him to do all that [19:43] <HeliumHead> no real surprises [19:43] <fawkes28> he did willingly sacrifice himself and live, which i thought would somehow happen [19:44] <hotshot9913> The fact that he kinda went camping for a couple of months bugged me, I never pictured him just hanging around. I thought he'd have to run off to Godrics Hollow [19:44] <HeliumHead> but he's been trying to crucio for the past three books [19:44] <jaimedanser> The Imperius curse surprised me more than anything... [19:44] <jaimedanser> and it didn't suprise me all that much [19:44] <fawkes28> What effect did Dobby's death have on the way Harry treated Kreacher, if any? What about Griphook? [19:44] <Amontillada> He wasn't just camping, he was trying to find the Horcruxes. If I were the editor, I would have trimmed those chapters, but not eliminated them [19:44] <SoonerGryffindor> I think the most important thing at this phase of the story is that the characters that Jo has developed for 6 books stay in character. Harry did a magnificent job doing everything I had predicted he wouuld [19:45] <Aislinn> Dobby's death happened after Harry changed his trreatment of Kreacher [19:45] <fawkes28> right [19:45] <jaimedanser> Hm...I don't think Dobby's death affected kreacher [19:45] <HeliumHead> agreed [19:45] <hotshot9913> Why'd ya have to bring up Dobby!!!! I love that lil guy [19:45] <jaimedanser> But perhaps he treated Griphook with more respect than he would've if Dobby had lived [19:45] <jaimedanser> *sobs* Dobby!!!!!!!! [19:45] <fawkes28> and i think he was always going to treat griphook the same - harry has great respect for magical creatures [19:46] <Aislinn> yes, fawkes he did [19:46] <HeliumHead> agreed fawkes [19:46] <jaimedanser> Yes, he has. [19:46] <hotshot9913> me too fawkes [19:46] <jaimedanser> I'm just saying... [19:46] <Aislinn> I don't think it was his treatment of them that changed, I think it was his focus [19:46] <hotshot9913> deep aislinn [19:46] <blue4t> Dobby's death changed Ron's view....but this is not a chat about Ron. [19:46] <fawkes28> perhaps he was determined even more not to let anything happen to another innocent creature? [19:47] <HeliumHead> i think that how he treated dobby altered griphooks perspective on harry [19:47] <blue4t> Yes [19:47] <Aislinn> I think that's really true, blue [19:47] <ProngsPatronus> I am thinking that, myself, fawkes [19:47] <fawkes28> Why do you think Harry felt so betrayed by Rita Skeeter's new information about Dumbledore? [19:47] *** bookworm1102 has joined #lounge [19:47] <Aislinn> because he had Dumbledore up on a pedestal [19:47] <blue4t> He saw that Dumbledore was hiding things from him. [19:47] <SoonerGryffindor> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html [19:47] <HeliumHead> because dd never told harry anything about himself [19:48] <blue4t> He realized through their entire relationship it was all about Harry and rarely about Dumbledore. [19:48] <fawkes28> i was so mad at Rita for writing that [19:48] *** bookworm1102 left #lounge [] [19:48] <fawkes28> i didnt want to believe just like harry didnt [19:48] <hotshot9913> Because DD never told him these things, and Harry thought he knew everything about DD (hmm hint of Voldy) [19:48] <Aislinn> and just like the pensieve memory caused him to see his parents in a more realistic light, the book also showed harry a side of Dd he had never considered [19:48] <jaimedanser> Because he realised it had all been about hi [19:48] <jaimedanser> I think he felt maybe a little guilty for never asking Dumbledore about him [19:48] <fawkes28> exactly, jaime [19:49] <fawkes28> which is a natural part of the grief process [19:49] <blue4t> When Harry first read that article about Skeeter's book, he wanted to be a big lie, but he knew there was some truth to it. [19:49] <ProngsPatronus> I think he would have rather heard it from DD [19:49] <jaimedanser> yep, blue, I agree [19:49] <Aislinn> it actually surprised me that he would believe anything from Rita, after his own personal experiences with her [19:49] <fawkes28> that is true, Aislinn - DD was a family figure to Harry and he finally learned that he wasn't perfect so it was devastating [19:50] <hotshot9913> well DD was kind his role model... and after the life and lies book he fell right off his pedestal [19:50] <Aislinn> I was actually more frustrated with Harry at this point in the story than at any other [19:50] <blue4t> He didn't want to believe Dumbledore wasn't this all-great wizard. He didn't want to believe that Dumbledore wasn't "perfect". [19:50] <fawkes28> i think it was a combination of Doge's plus Rita's because Harry realized there was so much he didn't know so it could be true [19:50] <Aislinn> but I think that you are right Prongs - he felt like Dumbledore should have opened up to him more. [19:50] <fawkes28> What do you think of Harry's use of some of the Unforgivables in this book? [19:50] <ProngsPatronus> he didn't want to believe that DD was... less [19:50] <jaimedanser> I found it good for him [19:50] <fawkes28> i honestly did not mind him using them [19:51] <jaimedanser> He can't be perfect all the time and he isn't unflawed [19:51] <hotshot9913> but Harry never asked DD to open up more the only time was the mirror of Erised. and DD lied to him [19:51] <Aislinn> I think it showed that he is human, with human flaws [19:51] <blue4t> I agree with fawkes. [19:51] <fawkes28> It was in a time of war and he finally came of age - he wasn't using it for the fun of it. It helped him [19:51] <HeliumHead> i didn't have a problem with him using them [19:51] <blue4t> He wasn't just using them to be mean. He had a purpose. [19:51] <Aislinn> everyone has a light and dark side [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> I hated that he used them [19:51] <ProngsPatronus> but understood why he did [19:51] <Aislinn> when he used the crucio, it was not to torture - he used it almost like a punch. [19:51] <fawkes28> exactly, Aislinn [19:51] <SoonerGryffindor> I was okay with everything but the crucio [19:51] <Aislinn> it was anger and pent up frustration [19:51] <jaimedanser> I was okay with all of them [19:52] <ProngsPatronus> I didn't like the Imperius, myself [19:52] <jaimedanser> A little taken aback but I understood [19:52] <fawkes28> it wasnt like when Bella uses it [19:52] <SoonerGryffindor> he couuld have used other spells to punch with [19:52] <fawkes28> Harry would never torture someone into insanity [19:52] <blue4t> I'm OK with, but if he had used the killing curse, I'm not so sure I'd be OK with it, even if it would've been to kill Voldemort. [19:52] <jaimedanser> no, fawkes, it DEFINITELY wasn't [19:52] <hotshot9913> there still Unforgivable. [19:52] <Amontillada> Exactly, Aislinn--all his anger over what he'd just learned about the mistreatment of students boiled up [19:52] <HeliumHead> but as i said before, he has been trying to crucio since OOTP [19:52] <Aislinn> what does it matter how he punches sooner? [19:52] <Aislinn> yes, Amontillada , exactly [19:52] <jaimedanser> Aislinn-- laugh [19:52] <SoonerGryffindor> it matters because it was a UC [19:52] <Aislinn> that is a Ministry defined label [19:53] <SoonerGryffindor> but it only bothers me a little [19:53] <jaimedanser> Yes, it is [19:53] <Aislinn> which they themselves ignored when it suited them. [19:53] <fawkes28> but in the whole book i do not believe they used the term unforgivable curse, which shows you that times have changed [19:53] <SoonerGryffindor> I was totally fine with the imperios he threw around [19:53] <jaimedanser> And he its not like the ministry is going to send him to jail after killing Voldy [19:53] <SoonerGryffindor> but it would have relly mattered to me had he used AK [19:53] <jaimedanser> See, but you can't like one more than the other, really... [19:53] <hotshot9913> well it was also a time of war... all's fair in love and war [19:53] <SoonerGryffindor> that was something I could not have recovered from [19:53] <Amontillada> By this time, he'd seen been through many experiences to make him question that label, and many things about the Ministry that defined it [19:53] <fawkes28> what? you would rather him split his soul then use crucio? [19:53] <Aislinn> I could never see Harry killing, and I still can't [19:54] <jaimedanser> Amontillada-exactly [19:54] <blue4t> I agree, amontillada [19:54] <ProngsPatronus> I think that, perhaps, all bets were off--including Ministry "labels" [19:54] <fawkes28> if he had used AK i would have been upset [19:54] <Amontillada> Actually, jaime, I think you can--ever since we learned about the Unforgiveables, AK has been presented as the "worst of the worst" [19:54] <SoonerGryffindor> I think the biggest problem I have with crucio is becuase the only reason that curse exists is for torture [19:54] <Aislinn> he never would have used the AK [19:54] <fawkes28> Why did Harry wind up destroying only one Horcrux? [19:54] <jaimedanser> Yes. But between Crucio and Imperius, I mean [19:54] <Aislinn> and if he had stood over Carrow, holding the crucio on him, I would totally agree with you sooner [19:55] <hotshot9913> does harry willingly walking to his own death count as 2 [19:55] <jaimedanser> hotshot--no, not really [19:55] <Aislinn> I loved that the Horcruxes were destroyed by all different people [19:55] <blue4t> Harry was not present for the destroying of two of the horcruxes. [19:55] <fawkes28> i think of this now along the lines of the legend of King Arthur. Harry's "knights" were the ones who helped him on his quest just as Arthur's knights did [19:55] <Aislinn> It showed that Harry was not concerned with personal glory or power, just getting the job done [19:55] <blue4t> Voldemort had to be the one to destroy the Horcrux inside of Harry. [19:55] <jaimedanser> Cause LV still destroyed that one [19:55] <Amontillada> Oh, well said, fawkes! [19:55] <Aislinn> And that his friends were his strength [19:55] <blue4t> One was "accidentally" destroyed by fiendfyre. [19:56] <HeliumHead> because harry has always relied on the help of those around him [19:56] <jaimedanser> I liked it--it showed that he was different from LV and relied on his friends [19:56] <blue4t> He knows Ron needs to be the one to destroy the locket. [19:56] <Amontillada> Right, jaime. That's a HUGE difference between LV the Selfish and Harry [19:56] <hotshot9913> agree - jaime [19:57] <blue4t> Harry doesn't care for eternal glory, fame, heroics. He just needs things to get done. He doesn't care that it's not him destroying the Horcruxes. If that makes him less of a hero, he could care less. [19:57] <Aislinn> yes, blue, exactly [19:57] <hotshot9913> too true blue [19:57] *** JeffHpFan has joined #lounge [19:57] <fawkes28> What do you think of Harry's relationship with Albus Dumbledore , finally? [19:57] <blue4t> *couldn't care less [19:57] <jaimedanser> Yes, Blue smile [19:58] <JeffHpFan> did I miss it? [19:58] <JeffHpFan> lol i just got on. [19:58] <Aislinn> almost, jeff [19:58] <HeliumHead> pretty much [19:58] <JeffHpFan> darnn [19:58] <jaimedanser> I think it was a complex relationship [19:58] <jaimedanser> VERY [19:58] <blue4t> It was not as Rita Skeeter described. [19:58] <fawkes28> i think Harry needed to have this final talk with Dd [19:58] <jaimedanser> fawkes--me too [19:58] <fawkes28> he needed some questions answered to be at peace with everything that happened [19:58] <Aislinn> I think that Harry finally accepted Dumbledore for who he was, and not just who he had imagined him to be. [19:59] <JeffHpFan> yes aislinn [19:59] <blue4t> exactly, Aislinn [19:59] <hotshot9913> he still thinks DD a great wizard. as flawed as he might be. later on in life he was trying to do everything for the good of others [19:59] <fawkes28> and he also needed this near death experience too as part of the hero's journey [19:59] <ProngsPatronus> I think it went froma small boy's need for a someone to protect him to something resembling an adult relationship [19:59] <blue4t> I like that, Prongs [19:59] <jaimedanser> Prongs--EXACTLY biggrin biggrin [19:59] <ProngsPatronus> it is just that DD had to be dead to be forthcoming [19:59] *** JeffHpFan left #lounge [Leaving] [20:00] <fawkes28> How would you compare the three Lost Boys? [20:00] <jaimedanser> yep [20:00] <jaimedanser> Hmm...they all had bad childhoods [20:00] <blue4t> In the end, we find that Harry's different. He's no longer lost. [20:00] <jaimedanser> and connected with Hogwarts [20:00] <Amontillada> Harry overcame his problems as a youth, Snape as an adult, but Voldemort never did [20:00] <jaimedanser> But Harry's different--he found a way to overcome that [20:00] <ProngsPatronus> I think there is a lot they have in common--intelligence, skills [20:00] <Aislinn> I think that it is so interesting that Jo painted these 3 boys, all with troubled childhoods, who made such different choices in life [20:00] <ProngsPatronus> but the one thing Harry has is a whole heart [20:01] <blue4t> exactly, Prongs [20:01] <hotshot9913> yes Hogwarts was their home. but besides that they were different. Voldemort was the worst then snape was in the middle but harry won [20:01] <jaimedanser> Aislinn-Yep [20:01] <fawkes28> it just goes to show how very important choices are in a person's development [20:01] <blue4t> yes [20:01] <Aislinn> yes, fawkes, it all comes back to choices. [20:01] <ProngsPatronus> and heart, should one choose to listen to it [20:01] <hotshot9913> even the little ones make a big impact [20:01] <Amontillada> I think that's a vital thing, Aislinn: how they all came from harsh childhoods, but chose such different courses of action [20:02] <fawkes28> i love how Jo describes Tom and Harry as physically similar too [20:02] <Aislinn> you're right, prongs, harry's choices come from the heart [20:02] <jaimedanser> fawkes--me too [20:02] <Aislinn> unlike other's [20:02] <HeliumHead> even snape is somewhat physically like them [20:02] <hotshot9913> snapes need of redemption and voldys need of power [20:02] <ProngsPatronus> yes--LV chooses from his fears, Snape from his grief, and Harry from his heart [20:03] <fawkes28> Last question: All of these characters are flawed-- do they all have a flaw in common? What do you think it is? [20:03] <jaimedanser> They act rashly sometimes [20:03] <jaimedanser> Without thinking [20:03] <fawkes28> oh, i like that answer, jaime [20:04] <hotshot9913> They all like the Firewhiskey biggrin [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> I think that all of them are arrogant, in some ways [20:04] <Aislinn> I don't see them as having the same flaws, other than those that all humans have [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> and all of them think the rules are negotiable [20:04] <jaimedanser> hotshot---BAHAHAH laugh [20:04] <fawkes28> even snape can be rash when it comes to being called a coward or making the UV [20:04] <Aislinn> that's not a flaw, Prongs [20:04] <Aislinn> :D [20:04] <Aislinn> biggrin [20:04] <fawkes28> hahaha [20:04] <blue4t> It's been a good chat. Gotta go. Had fun. Bye [20:04] <ProngsPatronus> true [20:04] <fawkes28> it is very true though [20:04] <jaimedanser> bye blue [20:04] *** blue4t has quit [Bye] [20:04] <hotshot9913> what the rules arnt negotiable [20:05] <fawkes28> for the most part they do not have many flaws in common [20:05] <HeliumHead> bye [20:05] <ProngsPatronus> byem HH [20:05] <Aislinn> at least, not the ones that impact their lives in the most profound ways [20:05] *** HeliumHead has quit [Bye] [20:05] <hotshot9913> but thats why there different if they had everything in common it would be the most boring book ever [20:06] <jaimedanser> hotshot-yep [20:06] <Aislinn> Thanks for joining us tonight! [20:06] <jaimedanser> smile This post has been edited by SoonerGryffindor: Aug 22 2007, 08:14 PM |
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