WWW Chat Transcript 12/13/06, Love, both Wonderful and Terrible |
 Dec 13 2006, 09:22 PM
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Organizing the Halo Rebellion  Posts: 3,301 Joined: 2:09pm April 16, 2006 Location: Being angelic, of course   |
Today's Text Chat Moderators were: Aislinn, Expelliarmas, Fawkes28, Futureweasley, Poet, and SoonerGryffindor.
[18:59] *** Aislinn has joined #lounge [18:59] *** Topic is: Love, both Wonderful and Terrible [18:59] *** Topic set by fawkes28 [Thu Dec 7 20:19:15 2006] [19:00] *** HHr-till-the-end has joined #lounge [19:00] *** stewiegryf has joined #lounge [19:00] <HHr-till-the-end> hello! [19:00] <stewiegryf> hi all! [19:00] <Aislinn> Love, a many splendored thing [19:00] <fawkes28> welcome everyone smile [19:00] <Aislinn> hi folks smile [19:00] * HHr-till-the-end waves [19:01] <stewiegryf> how is everyone today/ [19:01] <Poet> hi HHr-till-the-end [19:01] <HHr-till-the-end> hi poet! [19:01] *** DumbleDebbie has joined #lounge [19:01] <stewiegryf> hi debbie! [19:01] <fawkes28> hi debbie [19:01] <DumbleDebbie> hey all smile [19:01] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [19:01] <Poet> hi SoonerGryffindor [19:01] <DumbleDebbie> Sooner!!! [19:01] <HHr-till-the-end> hi debbie! [19:01] <SoonerGryffindor> hey guys [19:02] <stewiegryf> hey sooner [19:02] <Aislinn> good evening smile [19:02] <HHr-till-the-end> hey sooner! [19:02] *** Alexk has joined #lounge [19:02] <fawkes28> hi alex [19:02] <HHr-till-the-end> hey aislinn! [19:02] <HHr-till-the-end> hi alex [19:02] <Alexk> hello [19:02] * SoonerGryffindor waves to everyone in the CB [19:03] <DumbleDebbie> we actually managed to make the same chat Sooner, seems like it's been weeks [19:03] * HHr-till-the-end waves [19:03] <SoonerGryffindor> I think it has been Debbie [19:03] * Alexk stalls for his orchestra concert that's in 30 ins [19:03] <HHr-till-the-end> yeah true [19:03] <Alexk> *mins [19:03] <DumbleDebbie> so has summer re-arrived in OK? [19:03] *** harryfreak359 has joined #lounge [19:03] <fawkes28> hi, hf! [19:03] <Alexk> hey hf [19:04] <HHr-till-the-end> hey HF! [19:04] <harryfreak359> Hey everyone! smile [19:04] <Poet> Yes, seems like spring has returned [19:04] <Aislinn> hi harryfreak [19:04] <harryfreak359> How's everyone? [19:04] <SoonerGryffindor> yes. summer is back [19:04] <HHr-till-the-end> good [19:04] <DumbleDebbie> LOL 2 days of winter and that's it ;) [19:05] <harryfreak359> summer...already? That's too quick. biggrin [19:05] <fawkes28> it is warmer here as well but i wouldn't call it summer smile [19:05] <HHr-till-the-end> LOL! smile [19:05] <SoonerGryffindor> winter will come back [19:05] <Aislinn> way too quick! [19:05] <SoonerGryffindor> we are just on a hiatus from it right now [19:05] <Alexk> would it be illegal to put the original hp soundtrack music on my website? (i know, it's a pretty duh question, but i just need to make sure~sorry for being off subject) [19:05] <stewiegryf> winter just got tired of the cold [19:05] <harryfreak359> I thought, Arizona winters were quick, apparently I thought wron [19:05] <DumbleDebbie> I'll have to keep an eye on the weather so I can tease you when OK is colder than Maine smile [19:05] <harryfreak359> wrong* [19:05] <Poet> yes [19:05] <SoonerGryffindor> I have no idea Alex [19:05] <Alexk> lol, ty poet [19:06] <Aislinn> I think it might be protected [19:06] <Alexk> freewebs is letting me, it just doesn't seem right [19:06] <Alexk> and i'm afraid to be sued [19:06] * fawkes28 dreams about taking a vacation to miami [19:06] <Poet> I believe there might be a certain number of seconds that you're allowed to use, but it might differ from copyright to copyright [19:06] <stewiegryf> I don't think it is as long as there isn't any money involved. If you're not sure, then I'd say just leave it off, alex. [19:07] <Aislinn> it's a reasonable fear [19:07] * HHr-till-the-end jonis fawkes's dream [19:07] <harryfreak359> I would have no idea, I don't put music on my sites...makes my computers freeze anyhow...but I could see that it is protected. [19:07] *** HPotterExpert2 has joined #lounge [19:07] <SoonerGryffindor> go with your gut instinct Alex [19:07] <Alexk> lol [19:07] <HHr-till-the-end> *joins [19:07] <fawkes28> hi hpotterexpert [19:07] <Poet> Try wikipedia for info on copyrights? smile [19:07] <HPotterExpert2> hello! [19:07] <HHr-till-the-end> hey HPEX! [19:07] <harryfreak359> If you are worried about, Alex, then I wouldn't do it [19:07] <Alexk> (instinct's led me wrong oh too many times) [19:07] <HPotterExpert2> hi! [19:07] *** Punky has joined #lounge [19:07] <harryfreak359> Hey Punky! [19:07] <fawkes28> hi punky [19:07] <HHr-till-the-end> lol biggrin [19:07] <Aislinn> Hi punky [19:07] <Alexk> hey punky! [19:07] <Punky> Hi guys! [19:07] <stewiegryf> If you don't trust your instincts, just use the force, [19:07] <HPotterExpert2> hello! [19:08] <DumbleDebbie> hi punky [19:08] <SoonerGryffindor> lol stewie [19:08] <harryfreak359> Long time no see, Punky! [19:08] <Alexk> lol, yes [19:08] <HHr-till-the-end> hiya punky! [19:08] <SoonerGryffindor> hi punky [19:08] <Punky> It's been awhile HF, yes! [19:09] <HHr-till-the-end> wow! long greetings! LOL! [19:09] <harryfreak359> lol [19:09] <Alexk> (i can't get into the coc, i get to the question marks, and then nothing) punky? [19:09] <HHr-till-the-end> me to alex [19:09] <Punky> I know, still down....soon hopefully it will be back [19:10] <Alexk> oh, it's down? ok [19:10] <Poet> Alexk - CoC announcements will be in the CoC forum [19:10] <HHr-till-the-end> okay! cool! [19:10] <Alexk> ok [19:10] <Alexk> thanks [19:11] <harryfreak359> This should be an interesting chat [19:11] <Alexk> lol [19:11] <Alexk> mmhmm [19:11] <fawkes28> yes, love is a great topic [19:11] * HHr-till-the-end grabs soda and popcorn [19:11] <harryfreak359> I can't remember if I voted for it or not...(sounds like one I would vote for, so I don't see why I wouldn't have) [19:12] <Alexk> me too also hf [19:12] *** An_Eternal_Night has joined #lounge [19:12] <DumbleDebbie> hi AEN [19:12] <harryfreak359> Hello AEN [19:12] <HHr-till-the-end> hey night! [19:12] <Alexk> hi aen [19:12] <Aislinn> hi AEN [19:12] <An_Eternal_Night> hey all! [19:12] <fawkes28> hi AEN [19:13] * Alexk plays a short christmas tune on his violin and rushes out the door [19:13] <fawkes28> i am sometimes torn between a few choices when i vote [19:13] <Alexk> mustn't miss the concert [19:13] <DumbleDebbie> see ya Alex [19:13] <Alexk> bye everyone! [19:13] <Poet> good luck [19:13] <DumbleDebbie> have fun [19:13] <harryfreak359> bye Alex [19:13] <An_Eternal_Night> bye Alex [19:13] <SoonerGryffindor> awwww, wish you could stay [19:13] <harryfreak359> good luck, have fun! [19:13] <Alexk> aww, thanks [19:13] <An_Eternal_Night> good luck! [19:13] * HHr-till-the-end falls asleep on keyboard after lack of sleep. [19:13] <Alexk> i'd only cause mischief anyway [19:13] <HHr-till-the-end> bye alex [19:13] <Alexk> ;) [19:13] <fawkes28> bye alex [19:14] *** Alexk has quit [Bye] [19:14] * HPotterExpert2 is just as tired as HHr [19:14] <HHr-till-the-end> lol! [19:14] <fawkes28> testing [19:14] <DumbleDebbie> I see you fawkes [19:14] <harryfreak359> We see ya Fawkes [19:14] * HPotterExpert2 saw more of the inside of his eyelids than the inside of his school [19:14] *** BlixDude has joined #lounge [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> http://www.leakylounge.com/forums.html#entry1029064 [19:14] <DumbleDebbie> hi blix [19:14] <harryfreak359> lol [19:14] <BlixDude> Hi [19:14] <SoonerGryffindor> hey guys, can you do me a favor and vote? [19:15] <DumbleDebbie> okey dokey [19:15] <Poet> Nice. I love polls. [19:15] <HHr-till-the-end> sure! [19:15] <harryfreak359> Of course, Sooner, if I haven't already...I haven't been keeping track lately... sad [19:15] *** fawkes28 has quit [Bye] [19:15] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [19:15] <SoonerGryffindor> you can comment later, as nobody has yet, but we need input [19:15] <harryfreak359> Ooh, a new one! [19:15] <An_Eternal_Night> I already voted- I won't be able to make it to the chat, if there is one, on Christmas Eve unfortunately [19:16] * HHr-till-the-end waiting and waiting..and waiting [19:16] <Aislinn> changing color for today's chat [19:16] * SoonerGryffindor might not be able to recognize when Aislinn types now laugh [19:16] <DumbleDebbie> Aislinn's in camoflague [19:16] <HHr-till-the-end> lol! [19:17] <DumbleDebbie> and Debbie can't spell worth beans [19:17] <harryfreak359> Nice color, Aislinn, it looks good on you. But I won't be able to recongnize you! smile [19:17] <Aislinn> biggrin [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> When Harry attempted to open one of the rooms in the Department of Mysteries using Sirius' knife which was supposed to open all doors - the knife melted. We later hear from Dumbledore that the power of this room is "at once more wonderful and terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature." [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> This description is quite a powerful one - not just the lighthearted romantic feeling seen in Hallmark cards, but something much more profound and double edged. Let's discuss this most complex of emotions - Love. [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> The "ancient magic" that Lily invoked in her sacrifice for Harry was due to a strong emotion - love. Other spells, such as Expecto Patronum, Riddikulus and Crucio also seem to need to tap into the caster's emotions. Are emotions necessary for all spellwork, or is there something different about these types of magic? [19:18] <stewiegryf> Oh no...colors in the CB are like avatars on the Lounge...when they get changed, I get confused. [19:18] <SoonerGryffindor> sorry guys, had teck difficulties thre [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> everyone knows the rules right? [19:19] <DumbleDebbie> yessum [19:19] <harryfreak359> yup [19:19] <Punky> Yup [19:19] <BlixDude> I think emotion isn't needed but can be a huge factor [19:19] <stewiegryf> Yes ma'am [19:19] <SoonerGryffindor> okay [19:20] <DumbleDebbie> I think the emotion behind the unforgivables and the love-based magic is essential [19:20] <HHr-till-the-end> don't forget avada kadavera smile (though i'm probibley wrong!) [19:20] <Poet> I agree that emotion isn't needed for most, but that emotion can make a spell more powerful [19:20] <BlixDude> For some spells yeah [19:20] <Punky> Agreed Debbie, for some things I think it's necessary [19:20] <An_Eternal_Night> I don't think emotions are necessary for all types of spellwork; Occlumency, for instance, must be without emotion [19:20] *** fawkes28 has quit [Bye] [19:20] *** fawkes28 has joined #lounge [19:20] <harryfreak359> I agree Debbie, emotion is what makes a spell powerful, [19:20] <DumbleDebbie> right, the humdrum everyday spells don't require it [19:20] <SoonerGryffindor> I think you need the emotion behind it [19:21] <DumbleDebbie> Harry's emotion certainly juiced up Sectumsepra [19:21] <Aislinn> behind any spell, sooner? [19:21] <DumbleDebbie> *Sectumsempra [19:21] <stewiegryf> But Occlumency isn't really a spell AEN, its more of a magical defense than an actual spell. [19:21] <SoonerGryffindor> well, behind most of them [19:21] <Poet> Focus and practice seem to be enough for most spells [19:21] <fawkes28> testing [19:21] <harryfreak359> Yes, but the more difficult spells need emotion to make them powerful enough to use [19:21] <DumbleDebbie> hi fawkes, i see you [19:21] <SoonerGryffindor> yay! Now you are showing up fawkes [19:22] <fawkes28> yay! smile [19:22] <Aislinn> I think that some type of emotion is needed for some of the most powerful spells, and even with less powerful ones, emotion seems to change the impact [19:22] <HHr-till-the-end> avada,creucio,and impeio (srry i can't spell if my life depended on it!) all need emotion hate,and mind i pretty sure thats what it is :0) [19:22] <Poet> I agree, any type of emotion can hurt or help certain spells. [19:23] <Aislinn> when Harry is feeling very strongly, his expelliarmus has more force to it [19:23] * HHr-till-the-end wants some of snuffles treat! [19:23] <harryfreak359> Good point Aislinn [19:24] <Punky> And magic is accidentally set off by emotion as well, as in the case with Harry and Marge [19:24] <SoonerGryffindor> Do you think Lily need an incantation or was love enough to fuel the spell? Why? [19:24] <Poet> Good point [19:24] <harryfreak359> I think that love was enough to fuel that certain kind of magic/spell [19:25] <An_Eternal_Night> I don't think there was an incantation [19:25] <DumbleDebbie> I think her sacrifice automagically invoked the protection without her knowledge [19:25] <fawkes28> i think love was enough because it was an "old magic" [19:25] <HHr-till-the-end> maybe "protego"? but with such love it was enough it save harry? [19:25] <DumbleDebbie> hi Future! smile [19:25] <Poet> It's an ancient type of magic, so it's different from what is traditional done or taught [19:25] <harryfreak359> Hey Future! [19:26] <Punky> Hi FW [19:26] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think she used an actual spell [19:26] <futureweasley> hi guys [19:26] <An_Eternal_Night> hi future! [19:26] <HHr-till-the-end> HEYA FW [19:26] <futureweasley> sorry I'm late [19:26] <stewiegryf> hey future [19:26] <HPotterExpert2> FW! [19:26] <DumbleDebbie> me either Sooner [19:26] <harryfreak359> I agree, I don't think there was really a "spell" or "incantation" [19:26] <DumbleDebbie> she wouldn't have known that Voldy would offer her her life [19:27] <HHr-till-the-end> yeah my ideas are rubbish! [19:27] <SoonerGryffindor> I think it was something that accidentally happened because her emotions were so high [19:27] <DumbleDebbie> and because her love was so great [19:27] <fawkes28> i dont think she had time to think [19:27] <SoonerGryffindor> yes [19:27] <fawkes28> she just reacted [19:27] <DumbleDebbie> and because Voldy offered her a way out and she didn't take it [19:27] <stewiegryf> I agree Sooner. Jo said that it was not something that happened before Lily did it. [19:27] <SoonerGryffindor> if anything, she did the kind of magic that kids do before they know they are magical and it was accidental [19:27] <Poet> For instance, Jo mentioned that even stuff like potions has a magical component and a muggle couldn't make one and get the same results, so there are magics that don't involve words (or even thoughts of words) [19:27] <An_Eternal_Night> I definitely agree Sooner [19:27] <DumbleDebbie> ooo, that's neat maternal instinct magic smile [19:27] <harryfreak359> I agree Sooner [19:28] <stewiegryf> I agree...there is the same intense burst of emotion. [19:28] <Aislinn> it did seem to be pure emotion [19:28] *** NYBookworm has joined #lounge [19:28] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome NYB [19:28] <HHr-till-the-end> just like with aunt maruge(sp?) [19:28] <NYBookworm> hi [19:28] *** Priss has joined #lounge [19:28] <Aislinn> hi NYBookworm [19:28] <DumbleDebbie> like a mother instinctually throwning herself over her kids if a wall is crashing down on them [19:28] <fawkes28> hi NYB and priss [19:28] <Aislinn> hi priss [19:28] <HHr-till-the-end> hello! [19:28] <DumbleDebbie> hi NYB and Priss [19:28] <harryfreak359> Hi NYBookworm and Priss! [19:28] <An_Eternal_Night> hello NYB [19:28] <An_Eternal_Night> hi Priss [19:28] <SoonerGryffindor> welcome priss [19:28] <Aislinn> yes, debbie [19:29] <HHr-till-the-end> hiya priss and NYB! [19:29] <HPotterExpert2> futureweasley, you don't say hi? lol [19:29] <HHr-till-the-end> haha LOL! biggrin [19:29] <HPotterExpert2> am I chop liver? [19:29] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry and TOm have been compared to each other in terms of the similarities of being orphans and half bloods who didn't know of their magical identities until the age of 11. Why did they make such radically different choices about what kind of person to become? [19:29] <Poet> hmm [19:30] <HHr-till-the-end> where are ya FW [19:30] <futureweasley> I'm here... [19:30] <HPotterExpert2> yay! [19:30] <HHr-till-the-end> HI! [19:30] <DumbleDebbie> one has love in his heart and the other is rotten to the core [19:30] <futureweasley> HI!! [19:30] <harryfreak359> Well...they have had similar lives, yes, but they are completely different people [19:30] <Aislinn> I think that there is something inherently different in their make-up [19:30] <DumbleDebbie> hey future hug [19:31] <harryfreak359> Yes, I think that has something to do with it also, Aislinn [19:31] <fawkes28> right it depends on what is in their hearts and soul [19:31] <NYBookworm> Harry's parents loved him, and he had a year with them [19:31] <stewiegryf> Exactly...one is full of malice, one is full of hatred and greed. [19:31] <SoonerGryffindor> lol Debbie, let us know how you really feel [19:31] <stewiegryf> err...one is full of love, the other with greed [19:31] <DumbleDebbie> you know me... always beating around the bush ;) [19:31] <Poet> Tom wanted something out of life - power and control. Why, I can't say, but he's not interested in having others love him - it seems. [19:31] <Aislinn> that did give him a foundation, NYB, but I think that he naturally has a more loving nature that he inherited from his parents [19:31] <harryfreak359> lol [19:32] <SoonerGryffindor> somehow though I just cant imagine Harry not being who he is. There must be more to it than that year of being with his parents [19:32] <HHr-till-the-end> with harry and tomm they were both orphans (harry was as good as.) so the similarity i think is quiet strong (srry like i said can't spell!) [19:32] * HHr-till-the-end takes out a dictionary [19:32] <harryfreak359> I agree Poet, he wanted to be better than everyone else, Harry doesn't have that need...at all. He is popular, so he wants the opposite. [19:32] <DumbleDebbie> yes, there is something very different in Harry's spirit [19:33] <An_Eternal_Night> Tom wasn't an orphan until he killed his father [19:33] <Punky> I agree Sooner, I can't imagine him making other choices [19:33] *** HPotterExpert2 left #lounge [] [19:33] <DumbleDebbie> lol AEN, good point! [19:33] <HHr-till-the-end> true! sorry i just don't think sometimes! ohmy [19:33] <DumbleDebbie> oh the irony [19:33] <Aislinn> I agree too, sooner - I think that Harry was born with his gift for Love [19:33] *** Priss has quit [Bye] [19:33] <SoonerGryffindor> testing [19:33] <DumbleDebbie> I see you Sooner [19:34] <harryfreak359> I agree too Aislinn [19:34] <SoonerGryffindor> cool [19:34] <Poet> Harry cares about those around him and their feelings, but Tom does not. Perhaps orphanages bring out that personality in some people - love for only self. [19:34] <SoonerGryffindor> Did Lily's sacrifice influence Harry's choices? [19:34] <HHr-till-the-end> my color keeps changing! [19:34] <futureweasley> how could they not?! [19:34] <DumbleDebbie> not when he was younger, he didn't know about it [19:34] <DumbleDebbie> you mean unconsciously? [19:35] <Aislinn> I think that Harry is aware that she gave her life for him, and this must affect the way that he views the world [19:35] <harryfreak359> I think that it might have a little bit, I think that everything that happens to someone will influence their choices in some way [19:35] <fawkes28> i agree, hf [19:35] <Aislinn> yes, harryfreak, I agree [19:35] <Poet> He was protected by her love - protected on his actual skin. Perhaps that has been important in his personal development, not just in keeping him safe. [19:35] <HHr-till-the-end> i agree [19:35] <SoonerGryffindor> I think it is more of a case that Harry has his mother's heart [19:35] <DumbleDebbie> now yeah, but before he knew he made a lot of good choices too [19:35] <futureweasley> how could Lily's sacrifice not influence Harry's choices? His mind runs to her everytime he's in distress. It's her strength and bravery that he draws from. [19:35] <An_Eternal_Night> I totally agree future [19:35] <SoonerGryffindor> she was evidentally prone to sacrifice and I think Harry is as well [19:35] <DumbleDebbie> oh Harry's all over that [19:36] <futureweasley> right Sooner...he gets that "hero thing" from Lily [19:36] <DumbleDebbie> "saving everyone" [19:36] <harryfreak359> Oh yes, definitely, Sooner [19:36] <HHr-till-the-end> for peat's sake! will my colors stop changing! ( BTW who's peat? smile [19:36] <Aislinn> I think that she set a really powerful example for him, and I agree with future that it is something that comes to mind for him at critical points [19:36] <fawkes28> and harry also did not know what really happened until he was 11 and for him to turn out so well without even knowing what his mom did shows us a lot about his true character [19:36] <SoonerGryffindor> HHR, you have to change your own colors, they dont change on their own [19:36] <DumbleDebbie> but when he ws younger than 11 how would his choices have been effected? [19:36] <DumbleDebbie> *affected [19:37] <HHr-till-the-end> okay hmm must be a bug on my PC it's been acting weird [19:37] <HHr-till-the-end> *lately [19:37] *** Expelliarmas has joined #lounge [19:37] <DumbleDebbie> hi Expie [19:37] <Aislinn> I don't know that it would have impacted him prior to 11, debbie [19:37] <harryfreak359> Hi Expie! [19:37] <fawkes28> hi expie smile [19:37] <An_Eternal_Night> hi Expie [19:37] <HHr-till-the-end> OI,expie! [19:37] <SoonerGryffindor> hey Expie [19:37] <Aislinn> hey expie [19:37] <Expelliarmas> morning, everyone [19:37] <DumbleDebbie> that's what I was saying, I'm sure it affected him after he knew the true story [19:37] <futureweasley> hi expie [19:37] * HHr-till-the-end cheers as colors stop changing. [19:37] <fawkes28> right, debbie [19:38] <harryfreak359> I agree Aislinn, it wouldn't have it had as much influence on him until when he knew what would have happened. [19:38] <fawkes28> his character didn't change after he heard the true story [19:38] <HHr-till-the-end> true [19:38] <DumbleDebbie> and he made a lot of good choices prior to 11, like choosing to not use his 'abnormality' against other people [19:38] <DumbleDebbie> like say *cough*Tom*coug* [19:38] <An_Eternal_Night> Lily's sacrifice allowed him to make choices, by letting him have a life [19:39] <Aislinn> that is where I think that his innate loving nature comes into play, debbie [19:39] <futureweasley> he always had "hero" in him...but when he learned of her sacrifice, it effected him...brought that piece of his personality to the forefront [19:39] <HHr-till-the-end> this is off topic and is rubbish but wat if harry is a horcux? they have that bond..tongueonder: [19:39] <harryfreak359> i agree Future [19:40] <HHr-till-the-end> * tongueonder: [19:40] <SoonerGryffindor> Is love only a positive emotion? Have we seen any examples of the dark side of love in the books? [19:40] *** harryfreak359 has quit [Bye] [19:40] *** AnnaNoe has joined #lounge [19:40] <SoonerGryffindor> Merope [19:40] <Poet> Obsessive love [19:40] <NYBookworm> well there's merope [19:40] <HHr-till-the-end> my emo isn't working..i have the worst luck! [19:40] <futureweasley> hmmm, I was just thinking that Sooner and NYBook [19:40] <DumbleDebbie> depends on the kind of love [19:40] <SoonerGryffindor> Seems like that's what Tom was conceived with [19:40] <NYBookworm> oops too slow [19:40] <Expelliarmas> love can be obsessive and possessive, so it's not always positive [19:40] <Aislinn> yes, I think that Merope is a good example of the darker side of love [19:40] <stewiegryf> But is that really love? Merope's? [19:40] *** harryfreak359 has joined #lounge [19:40] <DumbleDebbie> hi Anna [19:40] <futureweasley> good call expie [19:41] <Punky> Good point, obsessive love is very dangerous, Slughorn points that out with the love potion [19:41] <DumbleDebbie> not what I would call love Stewie [19:41] *** CarpeDiem has joined #lounge [19:41] <futureweasley> hi CD [19:41] <DumbleDebbie> hi CD [19:41] <AnnaNoe> hiya [19:41] <Expelliarmas> even lavender and ron careened toward the negative [19:41] <SoonerGryffindor> well, I think that we can assume that Merope was obsessed with Tom Sr [19:41] <harryfreak359> Hi Carpe [19:41] <Poet> Sure, I think like other emotions, love can have amounts... [19:41] <CarpeDiem> Evening all! [19:41] <SoonerGryffindor> and that obsessiveness led to darkness [19:41] <SoonerGryffindor> Hi Carpe [19:41] <Punky> Hi Carpe [19:41] <harryfreak359> I agree Poet [19:41] <futureweasley> that wasn't "love" though...was it Expie? [19:41] <DumbleDebbie> I think Merope's emotion probably falls more under "lust" than "love" [19:41] <Expelliarmas> I think to lavender it was [19:41] <Aislinn> hi carpe [19:41] <An_Eternal_Night> hi Anna, hi Carpe [19:41] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Merope was just desperate [19:41] <futureweasley> but love for TRJr, Debbie? [19:41] <DumbleDebbie> very [19:42] <Aislinn> I think that people like Merope believe they are in love [19:42] <HHr-till-the-end> sorry fawkes! [19:42] <SoonerGryffindor> it would not have mattered if he were good-looking or not, so I dont think lust had anything to do with it [19:42] <DumbleDebbie> not true love, a love potion can't generate true love [19:42] <fawkes28> thanks [19:42] <Expelliarmas> I think Merope was attracted by Tom, Sr's physical good looks and perhaps his air of cleanliness and that turned to obsession [19:42] <HHr-till-the-end> right "got it fawkes" [19:42] <Poet> If he'd loved her back we'd call it love. When it isn't reciprocated, but the love keeps up.... that's tricky for sure [19:42] <DumbleDebbie> sorry future, I missed your point.. Tom Jr? [19:42] <harryfreak359> I agree Expie [19:42] <CarpeDiem> I would agree Aislinn...I would consider it a very odd sort of obsession, not love in anyones eyes but the obsessed. [19:43] <futureweasley> did Merope love Tom Jr? [19:43] <HHr-till-the-end> i agree aswell [19:43] <DumbleDebbie> no, she didn't [19:43] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that Merope was too selfish to love her own child [19:43] <Expelliarmas> i don't think so, fw; certainly not enough to live [19:43] <stewiegryf> I agree Sooner. [19:43] <DumbleDebbie> she died because she didn't love him [19:43] *** AnnaNoe has quit [Bye] [19:43] <stewiegryf> I saw her as apathetic towards her son. [19:43] <futureweasley> there are complications during childbirth that could have made it impossible for her to live [19:43] <Expelliarmas> she died because she loved no one and felt herself unloved by anyone [19:44] <SoonerGryffindor> all she could see was her own rejection by Tom Sr and decided then that she was going to die. She just waited till she had her baby [19:44] <DumbleDebbie> I'm pretty sure Jo has said she didn't love him [19:44] <Aislinn> I think that Merope had no examples of what it was to love, and didn't know how to feel it or express it in a healthy way [19:44] <An_Eternal_Night> I feel sorry for Merope... being brought up in such a horrible environment, it's no wonder that she did the things that she did [19:44] <DumbleDebbie> that is likely very true Aislinn [19:44] <CarpeDiem> The baby was the product of a failed obsession. To her it was the final reminder of something that could never be. I would assume it was that depression that killed her. [19:44] <Aislinn> I think she was also born without the genetic makeup to make it natural for her, as it is for Harry [19:44] <harryfreak359> Well, being raised in that family, it's not hard to see why though, Expie...I don't think anyone would have felt loved in that family at all. [19:44] <Expelliarmas> given her upbringing, it would be impossible for Merope to adjust to a healthy loving relationship [19:44] <SoonerGryffindor> very good point Aislinn [19:45] <HHr-till-the-end> wow i need to read HBP again i'm not following and i agree [19:45] <An_Eternal_Night> right Expie [19:45] <futureweasley> people can really die of a broken heart...good call CD [19:45] <CarpeDiem> Exactly Expie [19:45] <Poet> I think we can have any emotion toward a person without them having to have it back. You can love everything about a person.... [19:45] <Aislinn> yes, carpe, I completely agree [19:45] <harryfreak359> Yup, Expie, smile Exactly [19:45] <DumbleDebbie> yes, that's true future, but I don't think she gave a flying fig for her son [19:46] <SoonerGryffindor> she cared enough to live long enough to have him and to get herself to an orphanage, but she decided ahead of time to abandon him by dying, I think [19:46] <CarpeDiem> Poet, do yout think she loved him then? [19:46] <Expelliarmas> being rejected by Tom, Sr. took her around the bend [19:46] <futureweasley> look at what she did to make sure Tom would have a life, a home...she lived in squalor to ensure that her child would be born healthy [19:46] <Poet> I do think she loved him. She wasn't loveable though, was the problem. [19:46] <DumbleDebbie> wasn't a long trip in that family Expie [19:46] <Poet> In my opinion. [19:46] <Expelliarmas> very true, DD [19:47] <Aislinn> I don't think she decided it, sooner - I think she just gave up on life [19:47] <stewiegryf> If she really loved him, don't you think she would have tried to live to be there for him? [19:47] <futureweasley> I don't think you just "choose" to die [19:47] <SoonerGryffindor> I think she knew she was going to die. She lost the will to live and lived just long enough to have him [19:47] <HHr-till-the-end> my qustion is why didn'y she die sooner because it was a a fake love between them [19:47] <Poet> Sorry, I was talking about Tom Sr., not Tom who became Voldemort. [19:47] <Aislinn> I think she was deeply depressed, and was not able to look beyond her own dispair [19:47] <futureweasley> had a baby, am terribly depressed...think it's time to die now [19:47] <futureweasley> ? [19:47] <SoonerGryffindor> she lived long enough HHR to have Tom, then she died [19:48] <Expelliarmas> In her situation, I think love for her child was not enough (assuming she was capable of expressing such an emotion, which I doubt) [19:48] <DumbleDebbie> maybe it's a wizarding thing [19:48] <CarpeDiem> Postpartum depression can be an unimaginable experience. Perhaps hers started much earlier? [19:48] <DumbleDebbie> but postpartum within the hour? [19:48] <stewiegryf> You can lose the will to live, though. [19:48] <Aislinn> that's an interesting point, carpe [19:48] <SoonerGryffindor> very good point Carpe. Pregnancy hormones stink [19:48] <futureweasley> yeah, CD, at her own birth, perhaps? [19:48] <DumbleDebbie> lol Sooner [19:48] <An_Eternal_Night> lol [19:48] <SoonerGryffindor> its a good point actually [19:48] <HHr-till-the-end> lol sooner [19:48] <futureweasley> look at how her father and brother treated her...it was bad [19:48] <CarpeDiem> Ooh...interesting point future! [19:48] <Aislinn> I imagine she was in despair from the moment that Tom Sr left her [19:48] <CarpeDiem> I would say her mind was made up when he left...exactly Aislinn [19:49] <DumbleDebbie> yes, and she was already prone to mental illness (re: the rest of the Gaunts) [19:49] <Expelliarmas> I imagine she was in despair from about 2 minutes after she was born ... [19:49] <SoonerGryffindor> There are 3 different types of love described in ancient Greek philosophy: eros philia, agape. Let's look at each of them. The first one is eros, or romantic love. Is this type of love relevant to the story? [19:49] <Poet> I agree Expelliarmas that love for a child who is just born and you don't really "know" yet is not enough [19:49] <DumbleDebbie> lol Expie [19:49] <CarpeDiem> She did what she could to make sure the baby was in good hands but was not prepaed to live any longer than necessary [19:49] <Expelliarmas> not for her, Poet [19:49] <DumbleDebbie> for the shipper it is ;) [19:49] <SoonerGryffindor> definitely [19:49] <Aislinn> yes, debbie smile [19:49] <Punky> lol Debbie [19:49] <An_Eternal_Night> yes, it's relevant [19:49] <NYBookworm> smile [19:49] <Expelliarmas> It has been hinted at and will likely play a stronger role in book 7 [19:49] *** adamgryff has joined #lounge [19:49] <SoonerGryffindor> its the love that brought all of the couples together [19:49] <stewiegryf> Gotta run everyone. Hopefully I can make it back in a while. [19:49] <futureweasley> oh good grief...it's the underbelly of the story [19:50] <SoonerGryffindor> hi adam [19:50] <adamgryff> hi eveyone! [19:50] <SoonerGryffindor> bye stewie [19:50] <Expelliarmas> night, stewie [19:50] <harryfreak359> Bye Stewie! [19:50] <HHr-till-the-end> i'm kinda changing the sub (to lilly) i would think that lilly would have live because she gave her life for harry but again i'm wrong [19:50] *** stewiegryf left #lounge [] [19:50] <DumbleDebbie> hey adam! [19:50] <harryfreak359> hi Adam! [19:50] <Poet> I don't think it's strongly relevant. I think it has a place, that it's necessary because Jo wants to tie up loose ends. [19:50] <BlixDude> Well I think it might be in Book 7, perhaps Harry'll have to save Ginny [19:50] <HHr-till-the-end> or hermy? hermionegranger [19:50] <CarpeDiem> Yes, I think romantic love is a normal and relatable emotion in everyone's life. good or bad most know what love is or should be like. [19:50] <Poet> And all types of love will be important [19:50] <DumbleDebbie> I don't think it's vital. I think it's something to make the story more interesting [19:50] <BlixDude> No, not Hermy [19:50] <BlixDude> NEVER Hermy [19:51] <harryfreak359> I agree Debbie [19:51] <futureweasley> I think it's crucial [19:51] <SoonerGryffindor> it is very critical [19:51] <DumbleDebbie> I think sacrificial love is the ultimate key [19:51] <futureweasley> it's a huge part of life...and why you do what you do [19:52] <SoonerGryffindor> we have seen Harry himself experience all types of love but this until Ginny [19:52] <BlixDude> Bye guys to busy to participate [19:52] <fawkes28> !kb hhr-till-the-end [19:52] <Aislinn> I think that Jo shows that romantic love is an important part of life, an it is part of what Harry needs to experience as part of being able to Live, as referred to in the prophecy [19:52] <Poet> I think because Harry's power is love, that Jo needed to include all types of love, and more than one example of each. [19:52] *** BlixDude left #lounge [] [19:52] <CarpeDiem> Maybe not critical but it certainly makes the writing more appealing. Especailly for the age group she is writing about. [19:52] <DumbleDebbie> right CD [19:52] * futureweasley is a shipper through and through [19:53] <DumbleDebbie> oh don't we know it future! biggrin [19:53] <adamgryff> lol yes you are future [19:53] <An_Eternal_Night> would we find the story realistic if romantic love wasn't relevant to it? I don't think so [19:53] *** HeidiBug has joined #lounge [19:53] <futureweasley> just call me a hopeless romantic...I'm ok with that. H/G and R/Hr are 2 of my favorite storylines [19:53] <CarpeDiem> lol the first step is admitting you have a problem, FW smile [19:53] <harryfreak359> yes, Future, we all know [19:53] <fawkes28> hi heidi [19:53] <DumbleDebbie> I just think romantic love is fluff and not the real deal [19:53] <HeidiBug> hello [19:53] *** HHr-till-the-end has joined #lounge [19:53] <DumbleDebbie> hi heidi [19:53] <CarpeDiem> Hi HeidiBug [19:53] <HeidiBug> what is the topic? [19:53] <Aislinn> what do you mean not the real deal, debbie? [19:54] <DumbleDebbie> it's not the key to ridding the world of Voldy [19:54] <harryfreak359> I think so too...though it really depends on what you define "romantic" love. As everything does.. [19:54] <DumbleDebbie> that's not the "love" in the "love room" [19:54] <futureweasley> it could be Debbie...we don't know [19:54] <CarpeDiem> Heidi - right now we're talking about the importance of the "romantic" type of love in the HP Series. [19:54] <Aislinn> well, no, I don't think that it is, but I think it is as valid and important a type of love as any of the other types [19:54] <Expelliarmas> romantic love is every bit as bonding as any other love [19:54] <futureweasley> it could be all the sorts of love wrapped into one [19:54] <DumbleDebbie> I think real love goes way deeper than 'romantic love' [19:54] <futureweasley> I agree Expie [19:54] <HeidiBug> thanks CarpeDiem [19:54] <harryfreak359> I agree Debbie [19:55] <SoonerGryffindor> romantic love is real! [19:55] <Expelliarmas> and can be as destructive as any other type of love [19:55] <Aislinn> yes [19:55] <futureweasley> romantic love and Real Love can be one in the same...every instance is different [19:55] <DumbleDebbie> I'm thinking the fluffy puppy love stuff with these kids [19:55] <Poet> That's what I'm thinking future. Besides we know from Jo's interview with Melissa and Emerson that the DoM is for studying. I assume they study all types of love in that room. [19:55] <harryfreak359> Real, yes, Sooner, but a different kind of love, than...other love. [19:55] <futureweasley> "Fluffy puppy love"?!?!?! [19:55] <An_Eternal_Night> I am sure it is extremely important to the characters, as it is extremely important to us [19:55] * futureweasley is shocked and amazed [19:55] <SoonerGryffindor> when I think of romantic love, I think of the kind of love Molly and Arthur have [19:55] <harryfreak359> LOL [19:55] <Expelliarmas> well, Arthur and Molly were quite young when they fell in love and then married [19:55] <futureweasley> right Expie [19:56] <DumbleDebbie> I think romantic love can be an expression of a deeper love, but it's not 'true love' in and of itself [19:56] <SoonerGryffindor> I would definitely not call that not real [19:56] <Aislinn> romantic love is the sum of the feelings that one feels for their partner, or soul mate - it incorporates affection, lust, empathy, caring, sharing [19:56] <futureweasley> and Snape and Petunia were very young when they fell in love, too [19:56] *** Shard has joined #lounge [19:56] <fawkes28> hehe [19:56] <Punky> Or the type I think James and Lilly shard, and lol fw [19:56] <Poet> great definition [19:56] <DumbleDebbie> I'm not expressing myself well. [19:56] <Expelliarmas> I would think that's pretty deep [19:56] <futureweasley> hi shard [19:56] <harryfreak359> Yes, but I think that their love has gone deeper than "romantic" love [19:56] <SoonerGryffindor> yes Aislinn, in my opinion the only love stronger than romantic love is love for your child [19:56] <Shard> Hi FW! [19:56] <fawkes28> hi shard [19:56] <SoonerGryffindor> hi shard [19:56] <harryfreak359> I know what you mean, Debbie, I am trying to say the same thing, I think smile [19:56] <CarpeDiem> Hi shard [19:56] <adamgryff> hi shard [19:56] <Expelliarmas> heya, Shard [19:56] <Aislinn> yes, sooner, depending on the relationship [19:56] <harryfreak359> hi Shard [19:56] <Shard> Hi Sooner, Fawkes, EVERYONE!! lol [19:56] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [19:56] <Aislinn> hi shard [19:57] <Shard> Hi Aislinn! [19:57] <SoonerGryffindor> The next type of love described by the ancient Greeks was philia - it is considered the love of family - parent to child, sibling to sibling, etc. Does Harry have a chance to experience this type of love? [19:57] <DumbleDebbie> yes, Petunia :p [19:57] <SoonerGryffindor> I think the Weasleys have done this [19:57] <Shard> Harry has experioenced that love with Ron and Hermione [19:57] <Aislinn> I think he is able to experience it with the weasleys [19:57] <Shard> Yes Sheri [19:57] <futureweasley> I think that it does depend on the relationship. But I look at Ron and Hermione...all they've gone through together thus far and what they will face going forward together. If they end up "together", that's certainly The "real deal" [19:57] <SoonerGryffindor> lol shard [19:57] <DumbleDebbie> yes, the Weasleys have definitely become a surrogate family [19:57] <fawkes28> i think you are right, aislinn [19:58] <CarpeDiem> I think Harry experienced this with not only Dumbledore but also Serius. [19:58] <An_Eternal_Night> Harry has substituted Ron and Hermione for his family; I'm sure he feels love for them, and vice versa [19:58] <harryfreak359> Yes, even though his parents are not alive, i think he realizes what this kind of love is, with his experiences with the weasleys and perhpas Sirius [19:58] <Shard> Molly "He's as Good As!!(A son)" [19:58] <SoonerGryffindor> I love that line [19:58] <Aislinn> I love when molly says that he might as well be her son, for the way she feels about him, at the beginning of OotP [19:58] <Shard> Me too! [19:58] <harryfreak359> Me too [19:58] <fawkes28> sirius, is another good example [19:58] <futureweasley> Shard, I bawl at that [19:58] <Shard> I SO hope it's in the movie [19:58] <SoonerGryffindor> there is also the love that he had with Sirius [19:58] <futureweasley> Sirius is another great example [19:58] <Shard> *nod* I know what you mean FW [19:58] <DumbleDebbie> but Ron and Hermione, I think, are the real deal and have that sacrificial deep love for each other that they would die for each other [19:58] <Shard> the Weasley's are his family [19:58] <Poet> Great example Carpe. I agree that Dumbledore had a type of parently love for Harry [19:58] <CarpeDiem> I agree shard [19:59] <DumbleDebbie> a romantic love without the deeper sacrifical aspect is what I meant by fluff [19:59] <Shard> Definelty, Sirius was a Father figure for Harry [19:59] <fawkes28> they are his family blood doesn't mean everything [19:59] <Expelliarmas> For DD, Harry was as close as a grandson [19:59] <SoonerGryffindor> that is a good one as well Carpe. although I see DD as more of a grandfatherly figure [19:59] * futureweasley winks at Debbie [19:59] <futureweasley> gotcha [19:59] <harryfreak359> Yes, Debbie, smile [19:59] <futureweasley> I understand now [19:59] <Aislinn> Harry has had a number of father figures, and I think all of them have experienced philial love for Harry [19:59] * DumbleDebbie wipes the sweat from her brow [19:59] <harryfreak359> that was what I was trying to say too! Hehehe [19:59] <fawkes28> i think lupin definitely has [19:59] <CarpeDiem> Would Ron be a brother love as well? Hermione a sister? [19:59] <DumbleDebbie> Hermione is sort of like a sister to him as well [19:59] <futureweasley> I think that Harry also feels "brotherly love" for Ron and Hermione...likely for MOST of the Weasley clan [20:00] <SoonerGryffindor> but Lupin holds a lot of himself back [20:00] <harryfreak359> I agree Aislinn [20:00] <Shard> Dumbledore even challewnged anyone who knows HArry not to love him [20:00] <futureweasley> yes CD, exactly [20:00] <CarpeDiem> Good FW! [20:00] <SoonerGryffindor> yes Carpe [20:00] <Shard> Yes Lupin and Arthur are held back [20:00] <Aislinn> I think that Molly would sacrifice herself for Arthur, and that theirs is still a romantic love debbie [20:00] <Shard> Both Lupin and Arthu treat Harry like almost an equal [20:00] <futureweasley> look at how he is with Fred and George...it's obvious that there is more than just "friendly affection" there...he really cares for them [20:00] <DumbleDebbie> but it's not just romantic, it's so much more than that [20:00] <Shard> They don't patronize him or tell him to hide but in fact to know what he is facing [20:00] <SoonerGryffindor> the fact that Molly saw Harry in her dead family boggart shows where he fits in [20:01] <DumbleDebbie> that's the problem with English... only one word for love [20:01] <harryfreak359> Yes, but is just that just romantic love there or another love as well, Aislinn? [20:01] <Expelliarmas> Through the Weasley's, Harry has been the recipient of such love and seen it first hand [20:01] <futureweasley> yes Sooner [20:01] <Shard> Fred and George would welcome him as a brother in law [20:01] <An_Eternal_Night> right Sooner [20:01] <DumbleDebbie> yes, definitely Sooner, she sees him like a son [20:01] * Shard wistles innocently [20:01] <Expelliarmas> Even Hagrid has served as a pseduo-Uncle type for Harry [20:01] <harryfreak359> Yes, Sooner [20:01] <futureweasley> the Weasleys are his family...they are. He loves them as much as they love him. [20:01] <SoonerGryffindor> awww, expie, you are right [20:01] <HeidiBug> I agree, future [20:01] <Shard> I think Harry has experienced MOST of the types of loves [20:01] <harryfreak359> I agree Guture [20:01] <DumbleDebbie> cute Expie [20:01] <Aislinn> I think it is primarily romantic harryfreak [20:01] <harryfreak359> Future* [20:02] <DumbleDebbie> but Aislinn you said they'd die for one another which makes it sacrificial (like Lily for Harry) [20:02] <SoonerGryffindor> Do you think that the Dursleys have any of this type of love for Harry? [20:02] <Shard> Harry has had sibling love from Ron and Hermione, Fatherly from Sirius, DD, Motherly from Molly. [20:02] <SoonerGryffindor> NO [20:02] <Aislinn> Lily's was a mother's love - a philial love [20:02] <DumbleDebbie> wouldn't that be a shocker!?! [20:02] <fawkes28> great question! [20:02] <Shard> Petunia *MIGHT* have love but I am not going to hold my breath [20:02] <adamgryff> no, I don't [20:02] <futureweasley> oh, I do [20:02] <SoonerGryffindor> who? [20:02] <HeidiBug> I think Aunt Petunia might, but she holds back [20:03] <Aislinn> I don't think that Vernon or Dudley do, but possible Petunia [20:03] <CarpeDiem> From the story line we see I don't think we've seen a familial type of love from the Dursleys. [20:03] <fawkes28> i think petunia on some level somewhere very very deep down care about harry but not love [20:03] <Punky> Petunia might have more emotion toward harry but I wouldn't call it love [20:03] <Shard> Petunia may be holding back her love because of her hatred of Magic [20:03] <An_Eternal_Night> deep inside (very, very deep), I think that Petunia might have this kind of love for him [20:03] <Shard> Petunia DID take him in afterall [20:03] <Expelliarmas> Actually, no I don't think so; they could've had it initially, but once they decided to "stamp" the magic out of him, the path was set [20:03] <harryfreak359> I agree AEN [20:03] <CarpeDiem> Good point Punky...if she doesn't express it can it still be called love? [20:03] <Shard> I just hope it wasn't because of Blackmail as some theorize [20:03] <futureweasley> I actually think that Vernon has displayed the only form of "love" he knows how for Harry. He is quite protective of him [20:03] <DumbleDebbie> but it wasn't just philio, it was agape too (selfless love) [20:04] <DumbleDebbie> Lily I mean [20:04] <Aislinn> it is wasted love if it is not expressed, carpe - good point [20:04] <Aislinn> we'll get there debbie [20:04] <Expelliarmas> We don't know enough of what was in the letter to get her to take Harry; perhaps the magic extended to protect the household [20:04] <Shard> Vernon is too sefrlish to know what love is [20:04] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Vernon loves his family very much -- problem is that he doenst consider Harry family [20:04] <fawkes28> people express love in different ways though [20:04] <Shard> That may be Expe [20:04] <Poet> I think Petunia might have had some love for Harry, but when you hold emotions in they can die. [20:04] <Shard> Yeah Sooner your right, but he's still a jerk [20:04] <Aislinn> yes, I agree sooner - I think Vernon does love his family [20:05] <SoonerGryffindor> and he sees Harry as a threat, which is one reason he treats him so horribly [20:05] <Aislinn> but I don't think he at all includes Harry as being a member of his family [20:05] <fawkes28> but when they wanted to "stamp out [20:05] <futureweasley> you are right...but I do think that Vernon has tried to protect Harry from al the "evils" that magic would bring. He still fights it everyday...not because magic is "abnormal", but because he's acting as a "pseudo-shield" for Harry [20:05] <Shard> Harry might as well gone to live with the Dursley's for all the good it did him to live there [20:05] <Expelliarmas> I agree Sooner, if Vernon had considered Harry family it would have been very different [20:05] <fawkes28> but when they wanted to "stamp out" the magic, wasn't that a form of love? [20:05] <Punky> But fw, was that to protect harry or himself? [20:05] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that if Harry were not magical, there might have been a better chance as well [20:06] <futureweasley> I think both, Punky [20:06] <Expelliarmas> it might have been initially, fawkes, but it soon turned to abuse and indifference [20:06] <Aislinn> I think it was more to protect himself and his family, punky [20:06] <Shard> It's like saying "I want to stamp out your gayness" It's just as bad and wrong to say [20:06] <fawkes28> they loved him enough to not want him to get himself killed like lily and james [20:06] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry being magical represents danger to the family, and Vernon cant have that [20:06] <CarpeDiem> So what emotion has kept them "looking after" Harry all these years then? Is it fear? Perhaps they do love him? [20:06] <fawkes28> but maybe that is the only way petunia knew how to express her feelings for harry [20:06] <Expelliarmas> I don't think that was done out of love; it was done to prove they could [20:06] <harryfreak359> I agree Aislinn [20:06] <SoonerGryffindor> I think we will learn more about it in the next book [20:06] <Aislinn> it seemed like fear when Petunia reacted to the howler she got from Dumbledore [20:06] <Shard> Acceptance is what alot of people need to learn actually, maybe something Harry needs as well [20:07] <CarpeDiem> I'm looking forward to that too Sooner [20:07] <Aislinn> and I'm dying to learn what that was all about [20:07] <An_Eternal_Night> I certainly don't think that Dudley feels philial love for Harry [20:07] <HeidiBug> I think love will be a BIG theme in the next book [20:07] <futureweasley> I think that the fear the Dursleys feel is so palpable, they just don't know what to do with themselves. No other emotion that they have comes close to measuring up to their fears [20:07] <SoonerGryffindor> What other examples of philia do we have in the books? [20:07] <DumbleDebbie> I think the fear was for her own family's safety, not Harrys (although that woudl be a neat surprise) [20:07] <CarpeDiem> Yes, and when she heard 'dementor' too, Aislinn. There's more there that we need to know [20:07] <Aislinn> agree, Heidi [20:07] <Shard> Love is going to be very big [20:07] <SoonerGryffindor> yes Shard [20:07] <Shard> Friendship [20:07] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry and Hermione [20:07] <futureweasley> the Weasleys have adopted Hermione as well [20:07] <DumbleDebbie> the Order of the Phoenix is a brotherhood, so the members of that [20:08] <Shard> Narcissa loves her Son, if that is what the questino is asking [20:08] <futureweasley> minus Dung, maybe? [20:08] <SoonerGryffindor> good point Shard [20:08] <futureweasley> lol [20:08] <An_Eternal_Night> right Shard [20:08] <HeidiBug> I think the Malfoys love each other [20:08] <DumbleDebbie> lol, or someone else future [20:08] <SoonerGryffindor> me too Heidi [20:08] <DumbleDebbie> wink [20:08] <Aislinn> yes, Shard - narcissa is a good example [20:08] <Expelliarmas> We have Hagrid's love for Harry [20:08] <SoonerGryffindor> Hagrid loving Grawp [20:08] <Expelliarmas> we also have Narcissa's love for Draco [20:08] <CarpeDiem> I think the Weasleys are the greatest example of philia in the book [20:08] <Aislinn> yes, expie - he treats him like a member of the family [20:08] <Expelliarmas> Hagrid's love of animals/monsters [20:09] <futureweasley> Bella and LV (no, that's not a ship...Bella loves LV, and not romantically) [20:09] <fawkes28> and many other people's love for harry - he sure does have a lot of love surrounding him [20:09] <Shard> Yes Hagrid would sacrifice everything for his brother, he's been without familly for a long time [20:09] <Poet> Yes, Hagrid really loved his brother to put up with getting hurt to help him [20:09] <SoonerGryffindor> it makes you wonder if there is that kind of love between Bella and Narcissa [20:09] <Shard> FW: I don't know I think she'd have his baby if he asked, not that I did that in Sims 2 or anything....... [20:09] <futureweasley> Snape and himself? [20:09] <futureweasley> does that qualify? [20:09] <Shard> lol [20:09] <Expelliarmas> well, Bella sure did try to keep Narcissa from getting the wrath of LV [20:09] <Aislinn> there must be some form, sooner, the way that Bella followed Narcissa to Spinner's End [20:09] <DumbleDebbie> lol future [20:09] <Shard> Snape did know what it is to love [20:09] <fawkes28> but bella's "love" borders on obsessive [20:09] <Shard> So it may have been his mother, or father [20:09] <CarpeDiem> I think the idea of Hogwarts could be used as an example to. To take in these children and teach and mold them. It is (or should be) a huge family there. [20:09] <SoonerGryffindor> Snape and his mother [20:10] <Expelliarmas> Draco's love for his own family [20:10] <futureweasley> that's not canon, yet, Sooner [20:10] <Aislinn> yes, carpe - I think that Dumbledore shows philial love for his students [20:10] <SoonerGryffindor> I also wonder if we are going to find out anything about Regulus and Sirius This post has been edited by fawkes28: Dec 13 2006, 10:22 PM |
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Dec 13 2006, 09:54 PM
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Organizing the Halo Rebellion Posts: 3,301 Joined: 2:09pm April 16, 2006 Location: Being angelic, of course |
[20:10] *** Belenzie has joined #lounge
[20:10] <harryfreak359> I agree carpe [20:10] <Shard> TRue FW but I think it's a good chance [20:10] <fawkes28> the love neville has for his parents [20:10] <Belenzie> hey all [20:10] *** cloudpic has joined #lounge [20:10] <fawkes28> hi belenzie [20:10] <Shard> Neville *cries* [20:10] <Aislinn> and some of the teachers as well - like Sprout strikes me as a motherly type [20:10] <SoonerGryffindor> hi Bel [20:10] <fawkes28> hi cloudpic [20:10] <NYBookworm> the weasleys [20:10] <Aislinn> Hi cloudpic, belenzie [20:10] <SoonerGryffindor> that is sad Shard [20:10] <futureweasley> lol Shard...I heart Neville too [20:10] <cloudpic> Hi, all... sorry to be late [20:11] <Expelliarmas> heya, cloudpic [20:11] <Expelliarmas> goodnight everyone [20:11] <SoonerGryffindor> hey cp [20:11] <An_Eternal_Night> hey cloudpic [20:11] <Belenzie> and neville's yet to bllom love for our dear ginevra smile [20:11] *** KBOB has joined #lounge [20:11] <SoonerGryffindor> Is Molly's type of philial love totally positive, or are there negative aspects to it? [20:11] <cloudpic> Goodbye, Expie [20:11] <Shard> He's so brave that poor kid... Was re-listening to the PS audio book today [20:11] <fawkes28> hi kbob [20:11] <Aislinn> hi Kbob [20:11] <adamgryff> bye expie [20:11] <Shard> Neville defeintly wanted to be Harry's friend in thaqt book [20:11] <NYBookworm> she a little overprotective [20:11] <HeidiBug> totally positive [20:11] *** Expelliarmas has quit [Bye] [20:11] <Aislinn> I think that Molly is a wonderful example of a mother's love [20:11] <DumbleDebbie> hi cp [20:11] <Shard> No personm is perfect so Molly has negative aspects sure but I think she si a wonderful mother [20:12] <adamgryff> molly's lover is a typical mother love [20:12] <SoonerGryffindor> the only negative aspects are from being too loving [20:12] <An_Eternal_Night> definitely agreed Shard [20:12] <CarpeDiem> There are negatives as well. There is a point where you can be overprotective and cause problems. Dudley could be an example when this is done to the extreme. [20:12] <fawkes28> she really just wants what is best for her kids but she isn't perfect...right sometimes it is too loving [20:12] <Belenzie> her love can destroy her through grief [20:12] <cloudpic> She's a favorite of mine, Aislinn... I love her full-speed-ahead reactions [20:12] <Aislinn> I think that the kids see her love as negative at times [20:12] <Poet> Parents can love their children and wish to protect them. We see that with Molly wanting her twins to be able to support themselves. [20:12] <SoonerGryffindor> she might get a little overprotective, but I would rather see that [20:12] <Aislinn> me too, cloudpic! [20:12] <SoonerGryffindor> good point Poet [20:12] <cloudpic> Molly has already lost two brothers... must make her even more fearful of loss [20:13] <Poet> Yes, cloudpic [20:13] <Aislinn> I think she has a reasonable idea of what is protective enough sooner [20:13] <Shard> Shes so ovewrprotective I wonder if she would end up sacrficing herself for her children [20:13] <CarpeDiem> Don't talk like that shard ;) [20:13] *** KBOB has quit [Bye] [20:13] <Belenzie> with the way we see act with the others you would think she would fussing over charlie's absense more [20:13] *** KBOB has joined #lounge [20:13] <cloudpic> She doesn't seem overprotective to me... just normally so. [20:13] <Aislinn> I don't see her as overprotective at all [20:13] <Shard> I know I dontg WANT it to happen I just fear she might [20:13] *** KBOB has quit [Bye] [20:13] <cloudpic> I'd think she'd make that sacrifice without a moment [20:13] <cloudpic> 's pause [20:13] <Aislinn> other than not wanting any of them to hear about the Order's business at the beginning of OotP [20:13] <fawkes28> Molly wants her kids to grow up and live happy lives but with this war going on - she wants to shelter them and you cannot blame her for that [20:13] <Poet> I think you're right. She's about normal for a mother. [20:13] *** KBOB has joined #lounge [20:14] <adamgryff> Molly's love will be something that will devstate her if something was to happen to anyone if the family [20:14] <Shard> *nod* I agree Cloudpic [20:14] <SoonerGryffindor> Does philia have a negative side to it, or is it only a positive emotion? [20:14] <HeidiBug> molly may be a little overprotective at times, but it's out of all that love she has so I don't see it as negitive [20:14] <DumbleDebbie> according to Wikipedia the ancient Greeks classified familial love was part of agape love, hence the self-sacrificing aspect [20:14] *** KBOB has quit [Bye] [20:14] <Shard> That depends on your defintion of Negative I think [20:14] <CarpeDiem> True philia would be nothing but positive in my opinion. [20:14] <Aislinn> I think that Petunia is an excellent example of the negative side of philia [20:14] <Belenzie> there are negative sides "love makes us blind" [20:14] <SoonerGryffindor> so you guys seem to think that the fact that it can hurt to love someone so much could be considered negative [20:14] <HeidiBug> I really can't see a negative side [20:14] <Shard> Can I aska quick question Piliai = selfless love? [20:15] <Aislinn> she is completely unrealistic about her son, blinded by her love for him [20:15] <SoonerGryffindor> it was negative in the form of Molly's boggart [20:15] <DumbleDebbie> nope philia is brotherly love [20:15] <Aislinn> familial love, shard [20:15] <adamgryff> All love has a negative side to it, reguardless of how you put it [20:15] <SoonerGryffindor> familial love [20:15] <Belenzie> philia just means love right?? [20:15] <Aislinn> love of family [20:15] <Belenzie> kkkkk [20:15] <DumbleDebbie> philia - "affection that could either denote brotherhood or generally a non-sexual affection" [20:15] <Poet> Love for family usually to me would only be positive. Sacrificing ones self for a child or a parent would be negative for one, but for the other it would be positive. [20:15] <HeidiBug> I guess you've got a point, aislinn [20:15] <CarpeDiem> Aislinn, it's not the love that is negative but the actions associated with it, right? Is there a separation in the definition? [20:15] <Shard> The absecnce of love can be painful, but to quote "Better to have loved then never to have loved at all" [20:15] <SoonerGryffindor> hopefully, her blind philial love for Percy doesnt land the rest of the family in hot water [20:15] <fawkes28> well i think love of family could be considered negative when it is used for selfish purposes [20:16] <futureweasley> agreed Sooner [20:16] <Shard> Percy isn't Voldemort or Snape [20:16] <SoonerGryffindor> right, but he is not with them, so he is against them at the moment [20:16] <Aislinn> that's a good point, carpe, but essentially, it is always the actions that we are talking about , not just the emotion [20:16] <cloudpic> Petunia's love isn't healthy love... seems to try to fill in missing pieces with giving material things... food, toys, etc. [20:16] <Poet> So family love (phila) is sometimes blind and sometimes over-protective. I guess I agree with that. [20:16] *** harrmione55 has joined #lounge [20:16] <futureweasley> Percy has that potential, though, Shard. Not the "evilness", but the manipulation [20:16] <Aislinn> what active form does the expression of the love take? [20:16] <cloudpic> What is missing in the Dursley's love for one another... something seems to be. [20:16] <Shard> Yews Percy could go a bad way but I think he will return to the Weasley Fold [20:17] <cloudpic> I hope you're right, Shard [20:17] <futureweasley> I *hope* he does [20:17] <Aislinn> for Petunia, that expression is negative, even though it is a real and true love that she has for her son [20:17] <DumbleDebbie> hi harrmione [20:17] <CarpeDiem> Okay, good point. You "show" your love through actions. In that case, yes, it can certainly be negative depending on the actions of the person. [20:17] <harrmione55> good evening to everyone [20:17] <Shard> So that;s a negative then for Moll;y I suppose, being blind to a persons faults [20:17] <harryfreak359> Hi Harrmione [20:17] <CarpeDiem> Hi harrmione55 [20:17] <Shard> jHi Hermione [20:17] <cloudpic> Hi, harrmione [20:17] <harrmione55> I'm trying tpo catch up [20:17] <Belenzie> the familiarity with each other?? [20:17] <Aislinn> who's faults do you see Molly being blind to? [20:17] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, Petunia's love for her son may end up destroying hiim [20:17] <Shard> Oh then it would be the same for Petunia, she is blinde to HER sons faults [20:17] <Shard> Percy's [20:17] <HeidiBug> loving someone no matter what, I find it hard to see that as negative [20:18] <CarpeDiem> Harmione - we [20:18] <SoonerGryffindor> it is if it harms them more in the long run Heidi [20:18] <cloudpic> I think Molly knows her children's failings... that's why she pushes, coaxes, lectures [20:18] <Aislinn> I don't see her as that blind to his faults - I see her as tolerant of them. I think there is a difference [20:18] <harrmione55> I think too much love to the point of spoiling is destructive like the kind of Petunia's love to Dursley [20:18] <Shard> Loving someone no matter what is good, but not acknoledging a person has faults can be bad [20:18] <Poet> Ah, I like that Aislinn [20:18] <futureweasley> there is a point where you become an "enabler"...and that's something that can not happen in a healthy relationship [20:18] <SoonerGryffindor> let's say my son is addicted to drugs and because I love him, I bail him out of trouble again and again. Have I helped him or harmed him? [20:18] <Shard> I agree Aislinn smile [20:19] <Aislinn> agree, future [20:19] <HeidiBug> good point sooner [20:19] <Aislinn> right, sooner - bailing him out over and over again would be a negative way of expressing your love [20:19] <adamgryff> yes, sooner that exactly it. [20:19] <Shard> That is tricky Sooner, depends on the person but it would seem to not have helped him in the way he needed [20:19] <Poet> But you might also love him and do what's best for him (get him help), so either could happen. [20:19] <CarpeDiem> Good question Sooner. Your thoughts are posotive but at some point your actions can certainly become negative [20:19] <harrmione55> U agree with aislin [20:19] <SoonerGryffindor> right [20:19] <harryfreak359> good point Sooner [20:19] <SoonerGryffindor> The third type of love described is agape - the type of love one has for friends, or for mankind as a whole - a kind of platonic love. Are there examples of this type of love seen in the books? [20:20] <HeidiBug> Harry and the trio? [20:20] <harryfreak359> I think that we see alot of this kind of love in the books [20:20] <DumbleDebbie> but that's not really what agape means [20:20] <Shard> Yes Harry for Neville and the trio [20:20] <futureweasley> Well, Hagrid with dangerous creatures [20:20] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry and Hermione [20:20] <An_Eternal_Night> I agree harryfreak [20:20] <SoonerGryffindor> toatlly platonic, but they love each other very much [20:20] <Poet> Voldemort is a great example of not having agape, when almost everyone else does. [20:20] <HeidiBug> I agree sooner [20:20] <Shard> Harry was even begining to like Cedric too, I think he likes Krum well enough [20:20] <harryfreak359> Yes, Sooner, they do, I agree [20:20] <cloudpic> Dumbledore for the Wizarding World [20:20] <SoonerGryffindor> good point Poet [20:21] <harrmione55> voldy doesn't know how to love [20:21] <DumbleDebbie> agape love is self-sacrificing love [20:21] <Aislinn> I see Dumbledore as being the epitome of Agape [20:21] <cloudpic> Dumbledore's sacrifice was not for personal gain, nor to save any one Wizard [20:21] <harryfreak359> Took the words right out of my mouth, Cloudpic smile [20:21] <DumbleDebbie> the love that makes one willing to give their life for someone else [20:21] <An_Eternal_Night> right Aislinn, me too [20:21] <Punky> Yes, Dumbledoreis a great example [20:21] <Aislinn> he has love for all creatures around him [20:21] <DumbleDebbie> yes, he is Aislinn [20:21] <HeidiBug> Dumbledore and everyone else [20:21] <CarpeDiem> Yep, DD is a great example everyone [20:21] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that Harry is building his army because of all of the different creatures and people he has been exposed to throughout the years feel this type of love for him [20:21] <DumbleDebbie> so is Lily [20:22] <Shard> YES SOONER!! [20:22] <HeidiBug> Do you think Dumbledore had a kind of platonic love for Voldemort? [20:22] <harrmione55> sorry guys got to go to read HP book to grands. Happy Christmass and Prosperous New Year to All ! ! [20:22] <Aislinn> he is willing to sacrifice himself for the love of others, and was such an excellent example of this type of love for Harry [20:22] * Shard high fives Sooner [20:22] <cloudpic> Hagrid is another example of agape? [20:22] <SoonerGryffindor> bye harrmione [20:22] <SoonerGryffindor> lol Shard [20:22] <CarpeDiem> Sooner - I agree with that as well. DD has taught him well [20:22] <Aislinn> I totally agree sooner [20:22] <HeidiBug> Do you think Dumbledore had a kind of platonic love for Voldemort? [20:22] *** harrmione55 has quit [Bye] [20:22] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, Hagrid would die to protect several people [20:22] <Aislinn> bye harmione [20:22] <CarpeDiem> couldpic - yes Hagrid's love for all animals is a great example as well [20:22] <Shard> DD didn't let him self get that wqya [20:22] <harryfreak359> Bye harrmione [20:22] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think so Heidi. This might be one of his "mistakes" [20:23] <Shard> IF Lv couldn't fool DD then... [20:23] <DumbleDebbie> I think Dumbledore loved everyone, but pitied Tom, and was wary of him [20:23] <HeidiBug> sorry, didn't mean to type that twice [20:23] <Aislinn> I think he extended the same possibility for love to Tom that he did to all of his students [20:23] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think he ever loved Tom. According to Jo, nobody has loved Tom [20:23] <DumbleDebbie> ah, good point Sooner [20:23] <Shard> Sooner I dont think it was a DD mistake, TR recjected the hand of frienship that he offered and what else can DD do then? [20:23] <HeidiBug> I forgot about that, sooner [20:23] <Aislinn> right Shard [20:23] <SoonerGryffindor> he still could have tried Shard [20:23] <CarpeDiem> Sooner, wasn't it the other way around? Wasn't it that Tom has never loved? [20:23] <Aislinn> it was rejected [20:24] <futureweasley> DD was too suspicious of Tom to ever give himself the chance to "love" him [20:24] <Aislinn> I think he did try [20:24] <DumbleDebbie> maybe Jo forgot about DD? wink [20:24] <Shard> you can't force love Sooner [20:24] <Belenzie> the opposite with Harry and Draco [20:24] <An_Eternal_Night> I agree Sooner [20:24] <SoonerGryffindor> I'm not saying I blame him, because I'm sure I would have don the same thing, but I think it was what he would consider a mistake [20:24] <Aislinn> I think she was talking about the more personal philial or romantic love [20:24] <Poet> I'm not sure that if asked Jo would say that DD didn't have ... Right. [20:24] <Shard> "?I dont think it would have made a difference, for TR he was already too far gone. Oh sure DD may blame himself I am sure [20:25] <Belenzie> I don't Dumbles blames himself for that one [20:25] <futureweasley> DD doesn't blame anyone but himself...for everything that goes wrong [20:25] <futureweasley> he's very "weight of the world on my shoulders" [20:25] <An_Eternal_Night> right future [20:25] <Aislinn> I don't think he blamed himself for Tom [20:25] <Shard> I agree FW [20:25] <CarpeDiem> I see that as well FW. He hides it well but I feel there was a lot of guilt in his life [20:25] <Aislinn> and I don't think he was at fault with Tom [20:25] <Belenzie> isn't that kind of vain and a little shelfish though?? [20:25] <Shard> DD only partically blamed himself for Sirius [20:25] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, that is what I was meaning by that [20:26] <Aislinn> Tom was not a person that would allow himself to be open to the possibility of love [20:26] <futureweasley> well, that was his fault, Shard [20:26] *** Tanaqui has joined #lounge [20:26] <Belenzie> and don't take Dumbles as a vain man [20:26] <futureweasley> hi tanaqui [20:26] <DumbleDebbie> yes, he does take responsibility for everything, even things that are out of his control. it's part of DD's personality [20:26] <SoonerGryffindor> hi Tanaqui [20:26] <harryfreak359> Hi Tanaqui [20:26] <Shard> TRue FW but not completly so [20:26] <cloudpic> Dumbledore doesn't strike me as someone who dwells on past mistakes as much as he acknowledges they've been made and strives to move on [20:26] <Tanaqui> hey everyone [20:26] <Shard> The blame can be divided [20:26] <An_Eternal_Night> hi tanaqui [20:26] <Aislinn> yes, Bel, and I don't think DD was arrogant enough to think that he was personally responsible for how Tom turned out [20:26] <Shard> As for Tom, it's really ALOT his fault what he choose to do [20:26] <CarpeDiem> Hi Tanaqui [20:26] <SoonerGryffindor> Which type of love, or which types, do you think Harry has as his greatest strength? [20:26] <adamgryff> yes cloudpic dd does do that [20:27] <cloudpic> Accepting responsibility isn't the same thing, quite, as feeling guilty [20:27] <DumbleDebbie> agape, definitely [20:27] <Shard> Thats hard to say Sooner [20:27] <DumbleDebbie> that's what will defeat Voldy [20:27] <Belenzie> sigh......atleast someone is listening to me thanks Aislinn [20:27] <SoonerGryffindor> I think agape is the answer [20:27] <Aislinn> smile [20:27] <An_Eternal_Night> it has to be agape [20:27] <cloudpic> Hermione implied he's a "saving people" sort of guy... [20:27] <Punky> agreed, agape, I think he has the ability to show that and compassion for many people [20:27] <CarpeDiem> I think Agape comes natrually for Harry. The rest build from there. I'm not sure how or why he is so loving though. [20:27] <Shard> Agape is frienship? Then yes [20:27] <SoonerGryffindor> his love for the world is what keeps him going [20:27] <Poet> Yes, his ability to find love for all mankind, perhaps even Voldemort someday wink [20:27] <Shard> He';s gotten alot of people "Charmed" [20:27] <CarpeDiem> Agreed, Poet smile [20:27] <fawkes28> harry's love always seems to be selfless and just natural [20:27] <harryfreak359> agape I would say definitely smile [20:27] <SoonerGryffindor> it is freaky that he has so much of it, isnt it Carpe? [20:28] <Shard> TElling you THATS the power of his eyes.... [20:28] <Tanaqui> how is agape defined? [20:28] <Aislinn> I think that agape is the type of love that Harry has in great abundance, and it is why so many people and creatures are so drawn to him. [20:28] <cloudpic> He almost lost the Triwizard tournament to save Ron and others [20:28] <DumbleDebbie> Harry hugs Voldy and he explodes Poet? [20:28] <Aislinn> yes, cloudpic, it is just completely a part of his fiber and soul [20:28] <Belenzie> because he didn't have enough of it himself, and he feels that not having love is probably one of the worst punishments in the world [20:28] <DumbleDebbie> agape is selfless love Tanaqui [20:28] <CarpeDiem> Ohno! Huggles of death! [20:28] <SoonerGryffindor> agape is more of a friendship kind of love and a love for all mankind [20:28] <Aislinn> and people respond to that [20:28] <HeidiBug> I love hugs of death! [20:28] <Shard> I agree Sooner and thus that is stronger [20:29] <Shard> Still like the Romantic love :-p [20:29] <DumbleDebbie> that's just biology Shard wink [20:29] <SoonerGryffindor> DD picked up on the fact that Harry had empathy for Tom [20:29] <cloudpic> Altruistic love = agape? [20:29] <Aislinn> yes, cloudpic [20:29] <Tanaqui> okay, thanks...i've always heard it unconditional love and i don't know if harry has that... [20:29] *** kvermilya91 has joined #lounge [20:29] <DumbleDebbie> hi kvermilya [20:29] <SoonerGryffindor> I personally think that Harry is the only one that has the ability to show agape to LV [20:29] <HeidiBug> Hi Kristin! [20:30] <Aislinn> you don't think that Harry's love for Hagrid is unconditional, tanaqui? [20:30] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, how powerful woudl that be Sooner? wow [20:30] <Shard> Ooo Sooner that is controversial aint it? [20:30] <Poet> I agree SoonerGryffindor , thanks to DD's work with Harry. [20:30] <Shard> To forgive the man that murdered his parents??? [20:30] <cloudpic> OK... then I'd guess that Trumps all the other kinds... even if it doesnt' apply to absolutely everyone [20:30] <kvermilya91> hi heidi! hi everyone [20:30] <Shard> Thats not somehting I could do [20:30] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, but I think it will happen [20:30] <DumbleDebbie> awesome [20:30] <An_Eternal_Night> hi kvermilya [20:30] <SoonerGryffindor> that's why he's special wink [20:30] <harryfreak359> I don't know, Sooner...that would be hard...I could never do that...though I am no Harry wink [20:30] <adamgryff> you have to learn to forgive shard [20:30] <Shard> I dissagree Aislinn, trhey drooped his class!! >:( [20:30] <DumbleDebbie> yep, I can totally see it [20:30] <Shard> I agree Adam, I am just saying it's VERY hard to do [20:30] <cloudpic> Unconditional love applied universally would be nearly impossible... nearly Divine [20:31] <Aislinn> that has nothing to do with whether they love him or not, shard [20:31] <adamgryff> it would be yes [20:31] <harryfreak359> Yes, it is shard, I agree [20:31] <DumbleDebbie> there's a lot of symbolism in the series to back that up cp [20:31] <Shard> I think that is the point Cloudpic [20:31] <SoonerGryffindor> okay, so how many of you guys felt sorry for Tom being left on the doorstep of the orphanage? [20:31] <SoonerGryffindor> I did [20:31] <Tanaqui> i have a hard time accepting humans being able to love unconditionally [20:31] <cloudpic> So... then you strive for that "goal" and do your best, Shard? [20:31] <Shard> I idn't [20:31] <HeidiBug> I did a little [20:31] <adamgryff> I did [20:31] <harryfreak359> Well, not really... [20:31] <Shard> I did not, I think the Orphange was nicer then the Dursley's [20:31] <An_Eternal_Night> I did [20:31] <kvermilya91> hmm... I did a little [20:32] <Shard> imo [20:32] <SoonerGryffindor> it was sad. He was a little innocent baby at the time [20:32] <HeidiBug> hello [20:32] <DumbleDebbie> I felt bad that his mom didn't seem to fight to stay with him [20:32] <cloudpic> If so, Harry is a good student of Dumbledore's in that way... though he seemed to be that way even before Dumbledore's influence [20:32] <kvermilya91> but then again, as Dumbledore said, "could you possibly be feeling sorry for Voldemort?" [20:32] <HeidiBug> sorry, that was my brother saying hi [20:32] <harryfreak359> Nope, when I look at what he did, I feel o pity for him [20:32] <Poet> And I felt bad for Tom when DD said that Tim didn't think of those he surrounded himself with as "friends" [20:32] <HeidiBug> suck it [20:32] <Poet> *Tom [20:32] <SoonerGryffindor> right [20:32] <Shard> Tom rejected them [20:32] <fawkes28> i didn't - it was a place where he could be cared for - he just chose not to want to be close to people [20:32] <HeidiBug> sorry, that my bother again [20:33] <HeidiBug> I locked the door. He's gone [20:33] <Shard> Tom made his life what it was, he had oppertunity to accept love but he rejected it because he himself felt rejected [20:33] <kvermilya91> i do agree with that [20:33] <Punky> Yes, I agree shard, I still felt bad for him though [20:33] <cloudpic> Maybe he was somehow unable to experience love? [20:33] <kvermilya91> although I think maybe he was predisposed to reject love [20:33] <cloudpic> I agree, Punky [20:34] <Belenzie> I think tom has a twisted take on love.........he seemed completely stringed out when he was reborn...his death eaters "abandonment" really got to him I think [20:34] <cloudpic> Yes, that's closer to what I meant, kvermilya91... well said [20:34] <harryfreak359> He made his life the way he wanted it, he could have made his life different no matter what happened to him when he was little. He made his own life. [20:34] <Shard> That is possible that his Nature prevented him from accepting but then others are able to overcome there upbringing, look at Sirius versuys Regulus [20:34] <Tanaqui> well, studies are only recently coming to light of the attachment issues orphans have...i doubt anyone thought of those things in tom's time [20:34] <adamgryff> I feel bad that LV has never felt love, that is the terrible tragedy of the situation [20:34] <Shard> Agreed Adam [20:34] <SoonerGryffindor> Who has been the best example of love for Harry as he has developed? [20:34] <fawkes28> but he made that choice [20:34] <DumbleDebbie> Lily [20:35] <Shard> Lily [20:35] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Lily also [20:35] <DumbleDebbie> followed closely by Dumbledore [20:35] <adamgryff> Lily [20:35] <Aislinn> Dumbledore [20:35] <Belenzie> hedwig [20:35] <HeidiBug> Sirius [20:35] <Shard> And then Molly as second choice ;-P *ehehe* [20:35] <kvermilya91> haha [20:35] <SoonerGryffindor> funny, because he doesnt even remember her [20:35] <An_Eternal_Night> I have to agree with Lily [20:35] <harryfreak359> Lily or the Weasley's and then Dumbledore [20:35] <CarpeDiem> Dumbledore's love for everyone. I don't think he can truly understand Lilly's love without having a child. [20:35] <fawkes28> i'll be different and say ron and hermione [20:35] <cloudpic> But he didn't know about Lily until he was 11.. and he already was a boy open to love [20:35] <HeidiBug> Molly [20:35] <kvermilya91> I agree with Molly [20:35] <DumbleDebbie> yeah, Molly's great too [20:35] <SoonerGryffindor> I agree with Molly as the second choice [20:35] <harryfreak359> Yes, she is a great choice [20:35] <Belenzie> Severus too in his own way never letting his head get too big [20:35] <Shard> See Harry has had alot of love to [20:35] <Aislinn> I think that Dumbledore has been his present example of how to experience and express agape - his greatest strength [20:35] <cloudpic> What could have given him a sense of love before his Hogwarts days? [20:35] <Poet> Disregarding prior to age 11 - I think it's the Weasleys [20:35] <HeidiBug> I think Molly first because he doesn't remember Lily [20:36] <SoonerGryffindor> I do like DD as a choice as well Aislinn, and I definitely think that is who influenced hiim most the last year [20:36] <kvermilya91> he never grew up with his mother, he only knew of her sacrifice. Which you could argue was love, and what saved him. But I think If you mean a main example, then Molly [20:36] <Shard> But he does have her example, she is still with him in spirit [20:36] <cloudpic> It almost seems "natural" to Harry [20:36] <fawkes28> the fact that ron and hermione stick by his side and will do anything for him is such a strong form of love [20:36] <Aislinn> I think even going back to that first year at Hogwarts, sooner. [20:36] <Tanaqui> i guess i'd argue for 'as he developed' it would be the weasley family, as they are right there to give him guidance and try to keep him on track [20:36] <CarpeDiem> That is a great question cloudpic. I think he is naturally disposed to giving love the same way LV rejects it [20:36] <Poet> Of course it's unfair to pit the example of love from a whole family against the efforts of one person - like DD smile [20:36] <Belenzie> I think he hasn't paid too much attention to his mother [20:36] <DumbleDebbie> the love Lily gave him for his 1st 15 months of life affected his whole development as a person [20:36] <SoonerGryffindor> but until his last year, DD was rather distant with him [20:37] <HeidiBug> as he has developed--Molly, over all--Lily [20:37] *** SoonerGryffindor has quit [Bye] [20:37] <Shard> I agree DumbleDebbie [20:37] *** SoonerGryffindor has joined #lounge [20:37] <DumbleDebbie> I think the 1st 15 months carried him through the next 10 years [20:37] <Aislinn> it was the example that he set, sooner - the way that Dumbledore treated all the people and creatures around him [20:37] <Shard> WB Soooner [20:37] <DumbleDebbie> wb Sooner [20:37] <SoonerGryffindor> sorry, had lag [20:37] <Aislinn> not just the personal relationship they had with each other [20:37] <harryfreak359> wb Sooner [20:37] <Poet> i think he has had much more one on one time with the Weasley parents than he has with Dumbledore [20:37] <HeidiBug> I think Dumbledore loved Harry a lot but I don't think Harry really saw that [20:38] <kvermilya91> I agree with Heidi [20:38] <Poet> I agree. [20:38] <SoonerGryffindor> I agree Aislinn, as a role model I think DD was the best. However, I think personally its still Lily and Molly [20:38] <DumbleDebbie> Lily for early development, DD for later years as an example, and Molly later years as a surrogate mum [20:39] <SoonerGryffindor> Do you think Harry's ability to love plays a role in his ability to learn Occlumency? [20:39] <CarpeDiem> But never knowing his mother, can she be the best exmple for him? [20:39] <Shard> Funny enough yes [20:39] <DumbleDebbie> I hadn't ever considered that [20:39] <CarpeDiem> Oh! Great question sooner. [20:39] <DumbleDebbie> I don't know [20:39] <Shard> He's honest with his feelings [20:39] <kvermilya91> well, only if his love is what is keeping him from being good at it [20:39] <SoonerGryffindor> I cant help but remember Snape's comment about wearing his heart on his sleeve [20:39] <futureweasley> just like his heart, he wears his mind on his sleeve, too [20:39] <Aislinn> yes - I think that the essence of being loving is being open and empathetic, and that is antithetical to the skills needed for Occlumency [20:39] <cloudpic> That's an interesting question... I'm not sure I understand how love would stop him... [20:39] <Shard> Which is what is hinddering his ability to hide the truth from someone doing Leginmins [20:39] <HeidiBug> yes. I think if Harry "loved" Snape, then he could have learned it, but they're hate for one another got in the way [20:39] <Tanaqui> does it hinder dumbledore? [20:39] <cloudpic> Oh, I see, Aislinn [20:40] <SoonerGryffindor> I think Aislin hit on a major point [20:40] <Poet> I think Harry has trouble hiding his emotions, so I think he currently doesn't have the ability to close himself. [20:40] <CarpeDiem> Perhaps Harry is reluctant to shut out his emotions...his empathy...exactly, Aislinn [20:40] <DumbleDebbie> like it makes it hard for him to suppress his thoughts? [20:40] <kvermilya91> he has too much emotion to shut it out. [20:40] <Aislinn> I think that he will never be good at Occlumency, but I don't think he needs to be [20:40] <Shard> That's what Jo said basicaly that Harry is just too Honest a person [20:40] <DumbleDebbie> I couldn't find Aislinn in her regular color LOL [20:40] <SoonerGryffindor> well, just the fact that Harry loves so deeply and strongly. He will always stink at it [20:40] <cloudpic> I thought it was his almost hatred for Snape which prevented his learning [20:40] <Shard> I agree Aislinn he doesn't need it [20:40] <Aislinn> I'm back! [20:40] <kvermilya91> Dumbledore said in book 5 that his heart helped him more than occlumency [20:40] <Aislinn> biggrin [20:40] <CarpeDiem> Isn't that a contradiction, Aislinn? smile [20:40] <Poet> Siriusly [20:41] <CarpeDiem> Doh...read it wrong...nevermind! lol [20:41] <Tanaqui> i thought that, too, cloudpic [20:41] <Aislinn> isn't what a contradiction, carpe? [20:41] <Shard> Harry likes to be upfront about things [20:41] <Aislinn> lol ok [20:41] <CarpeDiem> Shh...keep going keep going! [20:41] *** NYBookworm has quit [Bye] [20:41] <Shard> But can he be good at Leginmins instead? [20:41] <SoonerGryffindor> Harry is too passionate about life to be good at oclumency and his ability to love freely is part of that [20:42] <Shard> Agreed Sooner [20:42] <DumbleDebbie> I would think that should be the case Shard [20:42] <SoonerGryffindor> I think he can and will be Shard [20:42] <cloudpic> I'm not sure I agree.... [20:42] <Aislinn> I think that Draco was good at Occlumency because he is not a person who readily expresses his emotions [20:42] <Punky> But isn't dumbledore good at it, I would say he's passionate about life [20:42] <harryfreak359> I agree Sooner, some people just have to much passion, so they wouldn't be good at occlumency [20:42] <HeidiBug> I agree with Sooner [20:42] <Tanaqui> and where is draco with love, aislinn? [20:42] <cloudpic> I don't think it's love that got in his way... as Punky said, Dumbledore is good at it [20:42] <Shard> Aislinn, Draco is definetly a person who can hide things [20:42] <Aislinn> I think he could be, yes shard [20:42] <DumbleDebbie> maybe DD had to practice for 90 years to get good at it [20:42] <SoonerGryffindor> DD is more reserved than you give him credit for [20:42] <harryfreak359> Yes, but he doesn't show nearly as much out in the open, Punky [20:42] <CarpeDiem> ...and that is why Snape is the best at it. Second only to LV, perhaps? [20:42] <cloudpic> I think it was hatred got in Harry's way... [20:42] <HeidiBug> lol Debbie [20:43] <Aislinn> carpe - exactly [20:43] <Shard> Yeah didn't they say that DD was a good Occulemncy [20:43] <cloudpic> Being reserved isn't the opposite of being loving. [20:43] <DumbleDebbie> I think DD is reserved to most and only open with a few close to him [20:43] <kvermilya91> Is that some hint as to what side you think Snape is on? [20:43] <kvermilya91> carpe? [20:43] <SoonerGryffindor> it does seem to be that the most love deprived people are the best at oclumency [20:43] <cloudpic> Even being guarded isn't the opposite of being loving. [20:43] <CarpeDiem> So the bigger the git, the better you are at Occlumency? smile [20:43] * harryfreak359 thinks that sentence made no sense.... *Dumbledore does not show his emotions as openly as Harry, DD is a lot calmer [20:43] <An_Eternal_Night> sorry guys, gotta go. keep up the great chatting! [20:43] <Shard> That is interestingh [20:43] <SoonerGryffindor> actually, is there anywhere where it says that DD was a good oclumens? [20:43] <harryfreak359> Bye AEN [20:43] <SoonerGryffindor> bye AEN [20:43] <adamgryff> bye AEN [20:43] *** An_Eternal_Night has quit [Bye] [20:43] <HeidiBug> I think DD is able to shut off his emotions well. I mean, we never see him angry or scared really. He's just always humming and clam. [20:43] <CarpeDiem> kvermilya - I think Snape is well guarded on purpose...he's not been truthful with anyone [20:44] <Shard> I thought it was in the HBP book [20:44] <cloudpic> I doubt that "being a git" makes you talented at Occulemncy... [20:44] <kvermilya91> understood [20:44] <Shard> lol [20:44] <DumbleDebbie> he was trying to avoid Harry's eyes in OotP, but as soon as they met... bam [20:44] <SoonerGryffindor> maybe shard, I know he is a good legilimens, but I'm not so sure about the oclumency [20:44] <kvermilya91> exactly [20:44] <futureweasley> lol, well, it seems to make a *small* advantage, cloudpic [20:44] <HeidiBug> I disagree Carpe, I think Snape's been truthful with DD [20:44] <Shard> Have to look that up or something then [20:44] <CarpeDiem> Thank you FW! smile [20:44] <cloudpic> Being controlled.. or being capable of self control for whatever reason would make the difference [20:45] <CarpeDiem> We'll debate that another time Heidi ;) [20:45] <Tanaqui> legilimens is the only thing listed at the lexicon [20:45] <kvermilya91> he's been truthful with crookshanks...his lover... [20:45] <Tanaqui> for dumbledore, i mean [20:45] <Poet> He could have taught Harry is why people say he must have been good at it. I think DD has great knowledge about lots of types of magic [20:45] <cloudpic> Some reasons for self control are negative, though, I'll agree with that! [20:45] <SoonerGryffindor> Does Harry need to express his power of love through an act of forgiveness? [20:45] <CarpeDiem> Good point, Poet. DD is a great teacher because of his love and understanding for others. [20:45] <harryfreak359> No I don't think so [20:45] <Aislinn> oooh, that is such an important question [20:45] <DumbleDebbie> I think that's very possible [20:45] <kvermilya91> I don't think so either [20:45] <Aislinn> I'm not sure [20:45] <Shard> Harry already has with Peter hasn't he [20:46] <SoonerGryffindor> I think so [20:46] <adamgryff> I think it is possible [20:46] <HeidiBug> Kristin you and I are the only ones who get that Crookshanks joke! [20:46] <CarpeDiem> I agree too, Aislinn [20:46] <futureweasley> I think forgiveness is an awful lot to ask of Harry [20:46] <Poet> Not always, but we've seen times that he did both at once. [20:46] <futureweasley> after all that's happened [20:46] <SoonerGryffindor> I think he stll needs to forgive Snape [20:46] <Punky> foregiveness is one of the strongest ways to express it-in this case [20:46] <DumbleDebbie> that's what would make it so special though FW [20:46] <cloudpic> Wow... that's a wonderful point... is forgiveness a necessary quality for agape? [20:46] <kvermilya91> well it's my opinion he will never feel forgiveness or empathy for Voldemort [20:46] <SoonerGryffindor> It will be harder for him to forgive Snape than anybody else IM [20:46] <CarpeDiem> I think love and forgiveness will be done separately. Both will be a powerful choice for Harry though. [20:46] <Aislinn> I think he has already felt empathy for LV [20:46] <fawkes28> Only 15 minutes left, everyone! This has been a great chat! I want to remind you all that this transcript can be found at the Corner Booth Forum http://www.leakylounge.com/Corner-Booth-f184.html. Don't forget to vote in the latest poll for the next WWW chat here http://www.leakylounge.com/forums.html#entry1029142 [20:46] <Shard> What about LV? [20:47] <HeidiBug> I agree with sooner [20:47] <Tanaqui> forgiveness is closely tied to love...so if harry's able to forgive, that makes him all the more loving [20:47] <kvermilya91> in the memories? [20:47] <cloudpic> Hard to forgive murder, though... of Lilly, James... or Dumbledore [20:47] <adamgryff> I agree sooner [20:47] <DumbleDebbie> yes, Sooner [20:47] <fawkes28> There will not be a follow-up chat in the Chamber of Chat tonight. [20:47] <Aislinn> yes, kvermilya [20:47] <cloudpic> Definitely, Tanaqui [20:47] <DumbleDebbie> but what a lesson cp [20:47] <Aislinn> I agree tanaqui [20:47] <Poet> I think he already does feel some empathy for him because he sees himself in Voldemort [20:47] <kvermilya91> hmm.. but in the memories was only pre-parental murder Voldemort. [20:47] *** cbm has joined #lounge [20:47] <SoonerGryffindor> hey clark! [20:47] <DumbleDebbie> hi cbm [20:48] <adamgryff> hi cbm [20:48] <Aislinn> hi cbm [20:48] <cbm> hey, just got home from work [20:48] <fawkes28> hi cbm! [20:48] <SoonerGryffindor> Does Harry need to express his power of love through an act of forgiveness? [20:48] <Tanaqui> now, the question is, can he forgive? or is he still too bitter and angry? and who has he forgiven already? [20:48] <SoonerGryffindor> that was the last q again [20:48] *** Punky has quit [Bye] [20:48] <Shard> Wouldn't it be harder for him to forgive LV then Snape?? [20:48] <CarpeDiem> Is forgivness more a moral or emotional choice? Does one need to love in order to forgive? [20:48] <kvermilya91> good question [20:48] <DumbleDebbie> I also think Harry's love may require that he be willing to die for someone [20:48] <Aislinn> I think that the critical person he needs to forgive is not LV, it is Snape [20:49] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think you need to love the person you forgive, but you need to be full of love to do it, if that makes any sense [20:49] <Aislinn> It is much more personal and passionate in that relationship [20:49] <kvermilya91> die for the wizard race, or ginny? [20:49] <kvermilya91> lol [20:49] *** Punky has joined #lounge [20:49] <HeidiBug> I think Harry's willing to die for his friends [20:49] <adamgryff> I think that it is Snape first [20:49] <fawkes28> i completely agree, aislinn smile [20:49] <harryfreak359> wb Punky [20:49] <CarpeDiem> Agreed Aislinn. And I don't know if he can truly love Snape. [20:49] <cbm> I think not, his love of sirius wass enough to hurt Voldemort even with no forgiveness involved [20:49] <DumbleDebbie> I get you Sooner [20:49] <Tanaqui> i've read for true forgiveness, though, there has to be some form of remorse or repentance [20:49] <HeidiBug> I don't think he needs to forgive Voldemort [20:49] <SoonerGryffindor> How can an emotion also be a power that will lead to the downfall of the Dark Lord? [20:49] <kvermilya91> I agree Heidi [20:50] <SoonerGryffindor> I think it all goes back to the sacrifice thing [20:50] <DumbleDebbie> maybe it will generate some sort of field so Voldy's AK will backfire on him (again) [20:50] <harryfreak359> Emotions are part of our minds, minds are the most powerful weapon that anyone can have [20:50] <HeidiBug> But I do think his defeating of Voldemort has to not be about vegeance [20:50] <kvermilya91> well, the fact that Harry HAS emotion in the first place gives him an advantage [20:50] <Aislinn> as we've seen in talking about it tonight, it is how the love is expressed that is critical [20:50] <cbm> I think of it like a poison that Voldemort has no resistance to [20:50] <Poet> A parents' love led to Voldemort's downfall the first time around... [20:50] <fawkes28> because love harms his tainted soul [20:50] <Aislinn> it is the active expression that holds the power [20:50] <fawkes28> exactly, cbm [20:50] <cloudpic> Well put, HeidiBug [20:51] <Poet> And we've seen how emotions affect spells... [20:51] <SoonerGryffindor> that's a great point cbm. Look at what brief exposure did to LV at the end of OotP [20:51] <Shard> Because Voldemort vannot comprehend Selfless acts [20:51] <CarpeDiem> I think love will be a contradiction to everything LV stands for. It's the one thing he does not understand and cannot prepare for. That's why it is Harry's greatest weapon. [20:51] * cloudpic begins humming "that's the power of... love" [20:51] *** Belenzie has quit [Bye] [20:51] <Aislinn> carpe, I think that is an excellent point [20:51] <fawkes28> very true, carpe [20:51] <Tanaqui> ack! cloudpic has now stucka song in my head! [20:51] * DumbleDebbie hopes it's not the Celene Dion version, shudder [20:51] * SoonerGryffindor starts singing some Tina Turner [20:51] <fawkes28> all of the training in the world is not going to help him...he has had what he needs all along - love [20:51] <cloudpic> Sorry, Tanaqui... but it does fit our chat! Tina! [20:52] <SoonerGryffindor> "What's love got to do, got to do with it" [20:52] <Tanaqui> lol [20:52] <HeidiBug> lol [20:52] <DumbleDebbie> LOL much better to have stuck in my head Sooner [20:52] <harryfreak359> LOL [20:52] <CarpeDiem> lol LV does TT? smile [20:52] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [20:52] <HeidiBug> "All you need is Love" [20:52] <fawkes28> it might kill him [20:52] <cloudpic> Yes, Harry seems to act by insticnt almost when faced with crucial moments [20:52] <kvermilya91> haha [20:52] <SoonerGryffindor> The locked room at the Department of Mysteries is said to contain a force more wonderful and horrible..... Is it possible to have a physical manifestation to represent love? [20:52] * harryfreak359 starts choking on the tea she was drinking [20:52] <CarpeDiem> Yep, falling in those heels would certainly do it fawkes "_ [20:52] <Shard> Yes Soooner [20:52] <Tanaqui> okay, so emotions can often give you a burst of adreneline.... [20:52] <DumbleDebbie> I guess we'll have to wait and see [20:53] <DumbleDebbie> grin [20:53] <Shard> I've changed my vote on that, I think that room might play some importance afterall [20:53] <DumbleDebbie> lol Shard [20:53] <HeidiBug> I like John's version of a disco ball and a heart shaped chair smile [20:53] <SoonerGryffindor> I have racked my brains more than once trying to figure out what it could be [20:53] <Shard> Maybe Harry will Luire LV to the room [20:53] <fawkes28> i don't think there is a physical manifestation in the love room [20:53] <Shard> Naughty [20:53] <Shard> John [20:53] <cloudpic> I'm not sure of what that could possibly be [20:53] <Poet> I'm inclined to say no. However, the Death Room did have an object that was a part of their study there.... [20:53] <fawkes28> i don't think there can be [20:53] <kvermilya91> maybe love is physically manifested in.... hm. maybe memories. happy memories. love memories. maybe there is a giant penseive in the room. [20:53] <DumbleDebbie> maybe a Phoenix shaped irredescent cloud? [20:53] <harryfreak359> No I don't either Fawkes [20:53] <Shard> Sooner: I think it would be the representation of acts of love [20:53] *** HPotterExpert2 has joined #lounge [20:53] <SoonerGryffindor> oh c'mon guys! I was wanting you guys to settle this for me. laugh [20:53] <fawkes28> i think it is just a strong surge of emotion [20:53] <DumbleDebbie> hi HPExpert [20:53] * cloudpic likes the idea of love as a cloud... LOL [20:54] <Aislinn> it's so hard to envision what Jo has created with that Room, but I think we will be seeing it again in the final book [20:54] <HeidiBug> so Harry will walk into the room and experience memories, Kristin? [20:54] <harryfreak359> lol [20:54] <fawkes28> let me just call jo for you, sooner [20:54] <Tanaqui> maybe it can be an electrical cloud [20:54] <DumbleDebbie> lol cp [20:54] <Shard> Thats what I think Memroies [20:54] <HPotterExpert2> hi again! [20:54] <Shard> What if Merope loved her son? [20:54] <kvermilya91> yes, and they will empower him, and then he can go, fight, win! [20:54] <cloudpic> w/b HPotterExpert [20:54] <Shard> Honestly there is no way for LV to remember if she did or did not [20:54] <HPotterExpert2> thanks! [20:54] <SoonerGryffindor> maybe there's a device like the mirror of erised in there? [20:54] <Shard> She onbly had him for an hour and died [20:54] <Shard> I can see that Sooner [20:54] <cloudpic> Give LV a memory of Merope's love for him and .... poof! [20:54] <HeidiBug> And Voldy will die because Harry's memories are so powerful [20:55] <kvermilya91> actually, maybe they are harry's memories, taken from him when he was a baby. and maybe the m.o.m. will let him exsperience them, and he will have a new surge of power [20:55] <cloudpic> He'd see the error of his ways [20:55] <Shard> Yeah that's what I am thinking [20:55] <SoonerGryffindor> and instead of showing your heart's desire, it shows you everyone who loves you [20:55] <SoonerGryffindor> confused07 [20:55] * harryfreak359 has no actual theories on this, so she's just going read everyone else's smile [20:55] <Shard> Yes Sooner! [20:55] <Tanaqui> or something like the thingy in a swiftly tilting planet...i'm blanking on what it's called...l'engle.... [20:55] <fawkes28> lol hf [20:55] <DumbleDebbie> awww, that'd be a great mirror Sooner [20:55] <cloudpic> That's a lovely though! [20:55] <adamgryff> but that would me that LV would have to forgive his mother for leaving him at the orphange [20:55] <cloudpic> *thought [20:55] <DumbleDebbie> hopefully it would be crammed full [20:55] <harryfreak359> ehhhh....I don't know about the mirror idea... [20:56] <SoonerGryffindor> *shrugs* Its worth a guess [20:56] <CarpeDiem> Perhaps there is something in there that will grant LV the ability to love. [20:56] <Shard> I like the "It's a wonderful Life" Theory that Sue said, that LV could see everything that Could have been [20:56] <kvermilya91> A Swiftly Titlting Planet, by Madeline L'Engle [20:56] <SoonerGryffindor> that would be cool Shard [20:56] <cloudpic> We've had lots of mirrors... so who knows? [20:56] <CarpeDiem> Empathy for him would be a fate worst than death. [20:56] <Punky> Yeah I liked that idea as well Shard [20:56] <Aislinn> true [20:56] <kvermilya91> oh, that thing. [20:56] <DumbleDebbie> lol CD, that'd eat him up for sure [20:56] <fawkes28> i don't think voldemort would be able to enter the room because i think the person needs to want to enter it [20:56] <SoonerGryffindor> Is sacrificing oneself(the way Lily did) the only means of using Love as a force against evil? Will Harry have to sacrifice himself in order to make use of his greatest power? [20:56] <HeidiBug> maybe he'll find the other mirror to the one Sirius gave him [20:56] <harryfreak359> No I don't think so, Sooner [20:56] <cloudpic> That's where the "luring" him would come in... [20:56] <Shard> I think there are many ways to use Love [20:56] <kvermilya91> hm.. I don't think so. [20:56] <Aislinn> I don't think so either [20:56] <HPotterExpert2> Nope [20:57] <adamgryff> No, I don't think he will [20:57] <Shard> I agree Cloudpic smile [20:57] <Poet> No, because we saw him drive Voldemort away in Book 5 with love [20:57] <DumbleDebbie> I think he'll have to be willing to sacrifice himself, but I think the shared blood is a loophole and it'll save Harry's life [20:57] <SoonerGryffindor> I dont think so either [20:57] <CarpeDiem> I don't think he has to but I think it is something that he is very willing to do [20:57] <Shard> Yes Poet, that's been my point about Harry [20:57] <SoonerGryffindor> Yes Debbie! [20:57] <HeidiBug> I don't think so either [20:57] <harryfreak359> I think that there are many ways to use love against evil, I think that it is used all of the time [20:57] <SoonerGryffindor> I am right there with you! [20:57] <kvermilya91> I think we are all really against any theory in which Harry dies.... [20:57] <Tanaqui> if harry needs to protect someone else he might need to sacrifice himself [20:57] <kvermilya91> or at least I am... [20:57] <cbm> I think that somehow Harry's love will need to be transpoted over the scar connection [20:57] <fawkes28> his sacrifice does not have to be literal [20:57] <Aislinn> I think that Love is a power that can be expressed through living - we see Harry do that when LV cannot possess him when Harry thinks of Sirius [20:57] <Shard> Harry can STILL repel LV even AFTER LV stole Harry's blood [20:57] <DumbleDebbie> I think that's why DD had that gleam of triumph [20:57] <CarpeDiem> I think forgiveness will be his saving grace though. [20:57] <cloudpic> No. Self sacrifice is the ultimate expression of love, but certainly not the only one. However.... there are some precedents [20:57] <CarpeDiem> Wonderful point Aislinn [20:57] <SoonerGryffindor> I was discussing that gleam earlier and said a lot of the same things [20:57] <DumbleDebbie> I think prior to that he thought Harry would have to die to get rid of Voldy and in that moment saw that Harry would live [20:58] <Poet> I agree that having the willingness is something he'll have that will indicate he's reached a point in his life that he can "destroy" Voldemort with love [20:58] <harryfreak359> Nice point, Aislinn [20:58] <cloudpic> Self sacrificing death coupled with forgiving... [20:58] <HeidiBug> The scar link sounds like a star trek thing [20:58] <cloudpic> *sighs* I don't like where that's leading my thoughts sad [20:58] <adamgryff> yes cloudpic [20:58] <DumbleDebbie> sorry, I must've missed it Sooner, got distracted in the middle there [20:58] <Shard> I agree Aislinn, the hardest thing to do is is Live, not Die. Dying is letting go, Living is holding on [20:58] <SoonerGryffindor> I think that Harry being willing to sacrfice himself will be what makes him triumph [20:59] <SoonerGryffindor> nonono Debbie. I was talking with someone else smile [20:59] <Shard> Agreed Sooner, I just hope he doesn't HAVE to [20:59] <HeidiBug> I'm not sure Harry will sacrfice himself [20:59] <DumbleDebbie> oh gotcha [20:59] <cloudpic> Willing ... but not required, she said hopefully. [20:59] <kvermilya91> maybe just the fact he would be willing to would be enough [20:59] <fawkes28> Thanks for coming to the chat everyone! smile [20:59] <DumbleDebbie> thought I had blanked on a whole big discsussion (I know I'm tired but really) wink [20:59] <SoonerGryffindor> lol [20:59] <cloudpic> Yay! for willingness! [20:59] <kvermilya91> lol [20:59] <futureweasley> yeah guys, this was a great chat! I think we have successful analyzed "love" to the hilt! [20:59] <Tanaqui> cloudpic, i think we've been on the same wavelength! [21:00] <DumbleDebbie> and that's why I think DD couldn't tell Harry he'd live b/c the willingness to die has to be genuine on Harry's part [21:00] <Shard> Woohooo! [21:00] <harryfreak359> Whoo hoo, it was great! [21:00] <Poet> /me starts a group hug [21:00] <SoonerGryffindor> I just wanted to give a big thanks to Aislinn for coming up with the wonderful questions for tonights chat. Yay for Aislinn [21:00] <cloudpic> LOL... I agree, Tanaqui [21:00] <Shard> Yaa [21:00] <harryfreak359> Woot for Aislinn! [21:00] <futureweasley> woot for AislinN! [21:00] <fawkes28> we can all "woot" for aislinn [21:00] <Aislinn> aww, blushing [21:00] <futureweasley> lol harryfreak! [21:00] * HPotterExpert2 cheers, squees, and woots! [21:00] <HeidiBug> fun while it lasted smile Thanks Aislinn [21:00] <Shard> Woot for Aislinn [21:00] <harryfreak359> biggrin [21:00] <CarpeDiem> Oh! Bravo Aislinn...great questions! smile [21:00] <cloudpic> Bravo, Aislinn! Great questions to herd this roudy crowd! [21:00] <Poet> Hugs of doom! [21:00] <fawkes28> it is ok smile [21:00] <cbm> thanks, Aislinn! [21:00] <CarpeDiem> Woot woot! [21:00] <kvermilya91> thanks all [21:00] <Aislinn> thanks everyone smile [21:00] <Punky> Nice questions Aislinn! [21:00] <fawkes28> woot woot woot [21:00] <DumbleDebbie> night hug [21:01] <SoonerGryffindor> since the topic is love....... big group huggles of doom!!!!! [21:01] <harryfreak359> They were great questions thanks Aislinn! [21:01] <Poet> Bye everyone. You're awesome! [21:01] <fawkes28> laugh [21:01] <futureweasley> goodnight guys [21:01] <harryfreak359> lol [21:01] <Aislinn> it was a wonderful chat - I loved hearing all your thoughts [21:01] * HPotterExpert2 is doomed [21:01] <harryfreak359> nice [21:01] <HPotterExpert2> lol [21:01] <SoonerGryffindor> yes, thanks guys [21:01] <HeidiBug> Yay! Group hug of doom! [21:01] <adamgryff> night guys [21:01] *** DumbleDebbie left #lounge [] [21:01] *** adamgryff left #lounge [] [21:01] <Aislinn> we'll see you all soon! [21:01] <cloudpic> (((((((((to all)))))))) If this is doom..... not so bad [21:01] <HeidiBug> bye all! [21:01] <SoonerGryffindor> but we need to close the booth and get the transcript done now [21:01] <cloudpic> Bye [21:01] *** HeidiBug has quit [Bye] [21:01] <futureweasley> lol cloud [21:01] <harryfreak359> bye [21:01] *** cloudpic has quit [Bye] [21:01] * cbm is bummed he missed most of the chat sad [21:01] <CarpeDiem> Great job as always CB mods. Thanks for the chat! [21:01] <CarpeDiem> Bye! [21:01] <Punky> Thanks guys! [21:01] <SoonerGryffindor> sorry clark, catch us next time [21:01] <fawkes28> Thanks for a great chat! smile [21:01] * harryfreak359 gives everyone a big hug! [21:01] <futureweasley> lol [21:01] *** harryfreak359 has quit [Bye] [21:01] <Tanaqui> good chat everyone [21:01] <HPotterExpert2> Bye guys, you are great! [21:01] *** Punky has quit [Bye] [21:01] *** CarpeDiem has quit [Bye] [21:02] *** Tanaqui left #lounge [] [21:02] *** kvermilya91 left #lounge [] [21:02] <cbm> I will, that supid work thing got in the way [21:02] <cbm> by [21:02] <cbm> bye [21:02] *** cbm has quit [Bye] This post has been edited by fawkes28: Dec 13 2006, 10:22 PM -------------------- |
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